00:00:00 --- log: started forth/06.07.06
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01:58:21 <LOOP-HOG> hi
01:58:27 <LOOP-HOG> anybody on?
02:01:14 <arke> hi
02:07:35 <zpg> hey
02:10:05 <LOOP-HOG> here i am
02:10:07 <LOOP-HOG> what's up?
02:10:16 <zpg> http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/noticias.html
02:10:21 <zpg> that
02:10:24 <LOOP-HOG> and don't tell me the sky, that is such an old joke that I ought to just barf
02:10:26 <LOOP-HOG> let me look
02:11:30 <LOOP-HOG> major new for Mexico
02:12:03 <LOOP-HOG> anything you'd like to say about it, between my english and esperanto I can't make much of it out, actually
02:12:21 <zpg> just keeping an eye on the recount figures
02:12:37 <LOOP-HOG> ok
02:12:44 <zpg> some dubious antics afoot so far
02:12:48 <zpg> hence recount
02:16:47 <LOOP-HOG> I should sleep, but have a bit of insomnia
02:16:54 <LOOP-HOG> do you use Forth, zpg?
02:20:04 <zpg> looking into it at the moment, though i tend to hack lisp, smalltalk, python, c.
02:21:32 <LOOP-HOG> oh
02:21:41 <LOOP-HOG> some people have trouble with the stack
02:21:45 <LOOP-HOG> I got used to it
02:23:38 <LOOP-HOG> there are a number of techniques
02:29:14 <zpg> of course.
02:29:23 <LOOP-HOG> of course
02:29:38 <LOOP-HOG> are you familure with >R R@ R>  ?
02:30:45 <zpg> well, i understand it but haven't used
02:32:57 <LOOP-HOG> It is understandable that you can place an input into a word onto the return stack, and then reference it with R@ so that you don't have to use DUP and OVER to access it
02:33:26 <LOOP-HOG> But you must use R> DROP at the end of the word definition so that you don't crash 
02:33:39 <LOOP-HOG> And then there is I and J
02:34:44 <ASau> LOOP-HOG: You'd better use UNLOOP to exclude I and J.
02:34:58 <ASau> ...remove...
02:35:30 <LOOP-HOG> I am thinking of creating an address range and then feeding them into DO
02:35:37 <LOOP-HOG> 8000 4000 DO
02:35:42 <ASau> Some implementors decided to put loop variables into
02:35:42 <ASau> separate stack.
02:35:44 <LOOP-HOG> CELL +LOOP
02:35:56 <ASau> It's called BOUNDS
02:36:08 <ASau> : BOUNDS  OVER + SWAP ;
02:36:10 <LOOP-HOG> then you don't have to worry about keeping the address on the stack, you just use I
02:36:32 <ASau> It's usual technique.
02:36:38 <LOOP-HOG> yes you can use BOUNDS to create the range
02:36:40 <LOOP-HOG> its usual
02:36:58 <ASau> : TYPE  BOUNDS DO I C@ TYPE LOOP ;
02:37:12 <ASau> : DUMP ... ;
02:37:24 <ASau> TYPE is reserved.
02:37:47 <LOOP-HOG> EMIT
02:40:31 <ASau> Yeah.
02:40:36 <ASau> I'm attacked.
02:40:43 <LOOP-HOG> I'm not attacking you
02:40:44 <ASau> It's a DDoS!
02:40:52 <LOOP-HOG> RATS!
02:41:11 <ASau> I'm involved in 3 different conversations.
02:41:36 <LOOP-HOG> You can move me to the back of the queue
02:45:28 <ASau> Yeah, you don't write 3 long messages at a time.
02:46:15 <LOOP-HOG> To deal with a DDos and three conversations at once is probably difficult
02:46:26 <LOOP-HOG> What do you use Forth for, take you time in responding
02:53:33 <ASau> I use it as very extended calculator.
02:54:11 <ASau> For me it's easier to use Forth on Palm.
02:55:00 <virl> so quartus stuff
02:55:25 <LOOP-HOG> That would make it a modern HP, in a sense
02:55:27 <ASau> No quartus.
02:55:43 <LOOP-HOG> Which Forth?
02:55:44 <zpg> ASau: what then?
02:55:58 <ASau> DragonForth.
02:56:13 <virl> and how is it better?
02:56:15 <ASau> http://delosoft.com
02:56:29 <ASau> It's GPL.
02:57:07 <ASau> I've got source and tools, and improved it.
02:57:38 <virl> ah ok.
02:58:20 <LOOP-HOG> by improvement, do you mean adding floating point?
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02:59:32 <ASau> Yes.
02:59:54 <ASau> Though, I added ZEN-style FPN.
03:00:10 <LOOP-HOG> I'm not familure with that
03:00:23 <ASau> I don't have mood with native FPN.
03:00:30 <LOOP-HOG> ZEN-style?
03:00:35 <ASau> I don't have mood to deal with native FPN.
03:01:49 <ASau> I've seen Martin Tracy's ZEN FP (got source from Taygeta
03:01:50 <ASau> Sci.), and written my own version.
03:02:56 <ASau> Top secret info.
03:03:20 <ASau> I also used Gforth when worked for our government.
03:03:41 <LOOP-HOG> Then I can't really ask about that
03:03:55 <LOOP-HOG> I am mostly an amature
03:04:01 <LOOP-HOG> I've written an arcade game
03:04:20 <LOOP-HOG> also I have written a twee which I used to make websites with, professionally
03:04:29 <LOOP-HOG> Not very advanced compared to many
03:04:43 <LOOP-HOG> I like better than Front Page
03:06:50 <LOOP-HOG> so I am very high level amature or very low level professional, take your pick
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03:12:10 <LOOP-HOG> I"m going to bed
03:12:14 <LOOP-HOG> good night
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05:19:20 <zpg> greetings
05:19:28 <PoppaVic> howdy
05:19:39 <zpg> hi PoppaVic 
05:19:45 <PoppaVic> mornin'
05:47:45 <ASau> evenin'
05:48:39 <zpg> afternoon
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05:56:09 <ASau> Dobry vecer, timlarson_!
05:56:26 <timlarson_> hi
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06:06:00 <ASau> Question of the day.
06:06:19 <ASau> timlarson_, and what do you use Forth for?
06:22:57 <timlarson_> ASau,  private projects...currently as a page-building language for a website I am building.
06:26:22 <ASau> Hmm.
06:26:26 <ASau> Wiki?
06:26:42 <ASau> Text-preprocess?
06:27:47 <timlarson_> database driven site, using forth for page templates.
06:28:47 <timlarson_> it is a sort of forth-lisp hybrid I created...preprocesses the pages to "compiled" forms then uses those as templates.
06:28:59 <timlarson_> gtg to a meeting...
06:40:10 <timlarson_> ah, that was a good meeting (short) :)
06:40:40 <PoppaVic> unless you want info and explanation from the OTHERS, I agree
06:41:17 <timlarson_> it was just a status meeting, not a real I-can-use-it-info meeting.
06:41:49 <PoppaVic> ugh.. Almost useless, except to management-drones
06:42:14 <PoppaVic> I used to just wander the shop and ask folks about status/problems.
06:43:10 <ASau> timlarson_: If it's not a secret, do you access DB from Forth?
06:43:16 <ASau> What Forth do you use?
06:43:41 <PoppaVic> what "DB" ;-)
06:44:10 <ASau> MySQL, I guess.
06:44:18 * PoppaVic rotfls
06:44:45 <ASau> Probably, Postgres, but this is less frequent.
06:48:02 <ASau> What's so funny?
06:53:05 <timlarson_> I am currently using sqlite with a home grown  forth/lisp-like language written in C.
06:53:29 <PoppaVic> timlarson_: yah bastard - what's the site?
06:53:44 <timlarson_> It is not up yet.
06:53:50 <PoppaVic> ahhh
06:53:58 <PoppaVic> I've been fighting concepts for weeks
06:55:44 <ASau> I think, if someone developped a way to utilize MySQL,
06:55:45 <ASau>  
06:55:45 <ASau> Forth would gain more followers.
06:57:57 <PoppaVic> that's minimally 3 issues - keep decomposing ;-)
06:58:10 <ASau> MySQL is popular, web is popular, so it'd be good to get on
06:58:11 <ASau> top of this wave.
06:59:37 <ASau> We have scheduling and backup tool written in Forth.
06:59:40 <ASau> nnCron
06:59:47 <ASau> & nnBackup
07:00:20 <ASau> It's rather strange, but they're popular in MS Win world here.
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07:25:54 <tathi> ASau: it's certainly possible to use MySQL from gforth+fflib
07:26:21 <tathi> I know JasonWoof has done it for some web stuff
07:34:25 <ASau> Hm...
07:36:06 <ASau> When I needed that (2 years ago), it didn't exist.
07:36:25 <ASau> And I had too many other tasks.
07:38:09 <ASau> I know about fflib, but technique does not consist of FFI only.
07:38:39 <ASau> There may be other quirks.
07:55:12 <JasonWoof> ASau: jasonwoof.org/gforthcgi if you're interested
07:55:25 <JasonWoof> I'm quite happy with the MySQL interface
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10:35:01 <ayrnieu> so... having a task that loops very tightly on RECV'ing from a non-blocking socket and 0 TYPE ing when it fails with EWOULDBLOCK
10:35:48 <ayrnieu> bad idea.  Still waiting for wc(1) to tell me how many times I got EWOULDBLOCK in perhaps -- OK.  I had 2,375,139 failed RECVs in perhaps less than a minute.  No wonder my CPU temps spiked.
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18:55:52 <I440r> cool! isforth can now display the line number an error occurs on during an fload lol
18:56:20 <I440r> actually wasnt that easy to do - had to modify fload :/
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23:13:27 <LOOP-HOG> hi
23:15:51 <ASau> Hi
23:16:39 <LOOP-HOG> I
23:17:11 <LOOP-HOG> I'm not sure what to talk about right now, but If I think of a topic, then I will type it.  I am curious about the 24a-b though
23:17:31 <Quartus> What's 24a-b?
23:18:24 <LOOP-HOG> It is the Intellasys chip
23:18:29 <Quartus> oh
23:18:33 <LOOP-HOG> with 24 core processors
23:18:43 <ASau> Tag line says: "We discuss ...  a variety of technical subjects."
23:18:59 <LOOP-HOG> I don't know when the tools will be available, it was said June 30, but no
23:19:15 <ASau> Do you read c.l.f?
23:19:37 <LOOP-HOG> sometimes
23:19:38 <LOOP-HOG> do you?
23:19:46 <ASau> Intellasys chips were discussed recently.
23:19:57 <LOOP-HOG> I didn't read that thread
23:20:07 <LOOP-HOG> I don't have a newsreader installed at the moment
23:20:18 <LOOP-HOG> I  peaked into c.l.f with google groups
23:20:35 <ASau> Newsreader is a must.
23:20:57 <ASau> How do you get news otherwise?
23:21:20 <ASau> How do you read read otherwise?
23:21:43 <ASau> WWW browser is bad newsreader.
23:22:03 <LOOP-HOG> http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.forth
23:22:17 <LOOP-HOG> can you elaborate on that?
23:22:41 <ASau> That is very terrible interface.
23:25:00 <ASau> Well, as for me, it looks like Intellasys' chips are not accessible.
23:25:23 <LOOP-HOG> you would be able to buy them in they were available, living in Russia, or no?
23:25:27 <ASau> That is they show only theoretical interest.
23:25:35 <LOOP-HOG> I see
23:25:48 <LOOP-HOG> not until they are in your hands, and you are sure that your orders will be fulfilled?
23:26:26 <ASau> I'm not electronic engineer.
23:26:32 <LOOP-HOG> neither am I
23:26:34 <ASau> I'm chemist.
23:26:52 <ASau> ...by education.
23:26:54 <LOOP-HOG> If I every play with one, then it will be with a developers board, or a hobby kit
23:27:03 <LOOP-HOG> but what do you do, or can you say
23:27:17 <LOOP-HOG> I contemplated, that if I was to go back to school, it would be for chemistry
23:28:06 <LOOP-HOG> it seems like the world has more than enought electronic engineers and computer programmers, they trained too many of them
23:28:09 <LOOP-HOG> or am I wrong?
23:28:37 <ASau> My case is of this kind too: I even have to learn EE stuff.
23:29:02 <ASau> My experience shows contrary.
23:29:25 <ASau> There're too little EEs and CPs in the world.
23:30:09 <LOOP-HOG> maybe that is because management insists that everything be done in the most inefficent manner possiable, that is to say use Java for everything
23:30:19 <LOOP-HOG> which insures that their departments expand
23:30:24 <ASau> But... when I say "EE" or "CP" I mean _qualified_ specialist.
23:30:28 <LOOP-HOG> but it wastes resources
23:30:59 <ASau> Not a hobbyist or man-with-a-diploma.
23:31:20 <LOOP-HOG> someone with experience
23:31:32 <ASau> Well, it may occur, that the word "qualified" means smth.
23:31:33 <ASau> different there and here.
23:31:48 <LOOP-HOG> it's hard, because you really need to be cross disciplined to be a good programmer, to understand both programming and the subject area 
23:32:16 <ASau> Here it's used more often as a synonym for "good", well
23:32:17 <ASau> educated man.
23:33:15 <ASau> Yes, programming does not mean coding in programming language.
23:33:52 <LOOP-HOG> I think that my Forth programs are good, but I'm just not fast enough
23:34:01 <ASau> Yesterday I had a conversation with a man, who wanted to
23:34:02 <ASau> solve old well-known optimization task with neuron nets.
23:34:03 <LOOP-HOG> and I have to expertise 
23:34:16 <LOOP-HOG> no math or science or engineering
23:34:41 <LOOP-HOG> but I wouldn't try to solve problems with the most complicated solutions imaginable
23:34:55 <ASau> Bad word "task". Read "problem".
23:35:07 <ASau> Should be "problem".
23:35:11 <LOOP-HOG> problem
23:36:22 <ASau> For a long time we had no "programmers".
23:36:49 <ASau> This knowledge branch was called "applied math".
23:39:53 <ASau> Now we have "programmers" knowing no math, but Java or C++
23:39:54 <ASau> or C# or whatever else.
23:40:22 <ASau> BTW, they don't know even that C/C++...
23:41:11 <LOOP-HOG> I'm a high level hobby/low lever professional non-math programmer with knowledge of only Forth
23:41:36 <LOOP-HOG> I don't know C/C++ Java Lisp Perl PHP whatever
23:41:38 <ASau> They don't understand assignment in short-cut boolean
23:41:38 <ASau> expression like E0 && (v1 = E1) && (v2 = E2) && ...
23:42:23 <LOOP-HOG> I don't understand that, you would have to express it in Forth, and then I would probably have to look up some of the words in and index, and maybe I would understand it
23:42:38 <LOOP-HOG> But I understand AND OR NOT XOR
23:42:47 <ASau> Well, Forth does not have short-cut boolean expressions.
23:43:08 <LOOP-HOG> couldn't you add them?
23:43:30 <ASau> You have to express latter in terms of ?DUP-0=-IF-DROP-ELSE-DROP-THENs
23:43:55 <Quartus> No, you could express them as IF EXIT THENs, or ?exit as it's often called.
23:45:08 <ASau> It's not convenient.
23:45:18 <Quartus> Wil Baden use ?? as I recall.  
23:45:21 <Quartus> What's inconvenient about it?
23:45:30 <ASau> : andif  s" dup if drop" evaluate ; immediate
23:46:07 <Quartus> I recommend against the use of evaluate for such a thing, better to use POSTPONE, but why that particular construct?  Seems odd to me.
23:46:18 <ASau> I know.
23:46:34 <ASau> "Evaluate" is shorter to write in simple case.
23:47:40 <LOOP-HOG> I use evaluate as a lameo forward reference sometimes
23:47:46 <LOOP-HOG> but I know it's lame
23:48:29 <LOOP-HOG> vectors are much better, or better yet, don't use a forward reference
23:48:40 <LOOP-HOG> EXECUTE is your friend
23:48:45 <ASau> Well, I use "evaluate" for "postpone" because it is short.
23:49:23 <ASau> Of course, I should write a better substitute for this.
23:49:43 <ASau> Smth. like: postpone" dup if drop"
23:50:37 <ASau> But for now "evaluate" works pretty well.
23:51:30 <Quartus> ?? was something else, actually, now that I look it up.  But you can certainly define && in Forth.
23:53:31 <Quartus> It's just an exit-if-false.
23:53:55 <ASau> Well, I leave you for a while, it's work time here.
23:54:32 <Quartus> Much as last time, very one-sided. 
23:55:03 <LOOP-HOG> bye
23:56:17 <LOOP-HOG> I found the 24a-b thread
23:56:24 <LOOP-HOG> I'm going to look at it for awhile
23:56:29 <LOOP-HOG> unless you have something on your mind
23:56:32 <Quartus> Drop in, make a false claim, ignore any comments to that effect, leave.  Odd modus operandum, but everybody needs a hobby. :)
23:56:47 <Quartus> By all means, LOOP-HOG, read on.
23:57:16 <LOOP-HOG> maybe he just doesn't understand that part of Forth, you could define that word for  him in ANS and email it to him, or wait until he pops back in and show him
23:57:33 <LOOP-HOG> might help him out, we are all at different levels of understanding
23:57:49 <Quartus> Right, that must be it.
23:59:18 <ASau> I don't like ?EXITit works, but I don't
23:59:30 <ASau> I don't like ?EXIT, I know it works, but I don't like it.
23:59:49 <Quartus> && isn't ?exit, it's the opposite of it, and it's exactly the same operator as in C.
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/06.07.06