00:00:00 --- log: started forth/06.06.24 03:04:17 --- quit: Quartus (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 03:30:03 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 03:42:35 --- join: neceve (n=claudiu@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 03:42:59 --- join: Hobart_ (i=jb@jb.org) joined #forth 03:43:00 --- quit: Hobart (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 04:17:10 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pete@0-1pool75-84.nas24.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 05:13:45 --- join: Quartus (n=trailer@CPE0001023f6e4f-CM013349902843.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 05:45:22 --- quit: nighty_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 05:45:55 --- join: nighty_ (i=nighty@sushi.rural-networks.com) joined #forth 05:53:23 --- quit: nighty_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 05:53:44 --- join: nighty_ (i=nighty@sushi.rural-networks.com) joined #forth 06:53:09 --- join: Queek (i=74081307@Orleans-ppp42626.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 06:57:28 --- part: Queek left #forth 06:58:19 --- join: I440r (n=mark4@24-177-235-246.dhcp.gnvl.sc.charter.com) joined #forth 07:02:37 --- quit: PoppaVic ("Pulls the pin...") 07:03:59 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pete@0-3pool196-205.nas30.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 07:20:54 --- quit: I440r ("Leaving") 07:21:26 hehe.. Getting soooo snarfled ;-) 07:22:52 One guy - after 2 mo+ asks a question that rocks the world. Shaking the entire foundation in a way that suggests alternative-realities ;-) It's almost like reading "The Reality Matrix" or whatching the Matrix-films ;-) 07:23:19 "define 'reality'" 07:26:09 --- join: I440r (n=mark4@24-177-235-246.dhcp.gnvl.sc.charter.com) joined #forth 07:28:18 PoppaVic, who are you referring to? 07:29:11 outside the channel - he's been idle for a few mo with personal issues. All of a sudden, I can't decide if I want to bitchslap him or ask him his solutions ;-/ 07:29:30 reality is that which needs no definition because it's defined well enough already 07:29:55 docl: hehe - perceptions are nice, until you need to mechanize ;-> 07:31:00 "'Reality' - What a concept!" ;-) 07:31:01 well, you can mechanize but the mechanisms are hardly a part of the essence of reality 07:31:11 I agree 07:31:25 although the essence itself is certainly a part of them 07:31:37 perceptions are not "the code" - mechanizations 07:33:09 anyway, it sorta' wobbled my code and view. This is why I was asking these guys for feedback and examples. It's just irksome to be working for umpty days and get a mere query that rocks it all - now I have to dive in myself AND ask for "gee, what would you suggest" ;-) 07:33:50 how does code relate to reality? 07:34:56 yep 07:35:19 "which Reality" is a better question, btw 07:35:26 I guess mechanization is a part of reality's essence. real things are mechanical. 07:35:56 oh, - think of "the rules in this reality/universe" 07:36:13 It's incomplete, but it helps 07:36:49 there's only one reality, but several aspects :) 07:36:54 nope 07:37:23 you can't seperate one percieved reality from another. not completely, at any rate. 07:37:26 Every single person has their own "reality" ;-) This is worse, because those sometimes AGREE with group "realities" 07:38:27 For example: "death" - if YOU die, does the "reality" end? 07:38:47 so, yeah - it's wild to try to codify sections of it. 07:39:06 all realities are interconnected by gravitational and electromagnetic forces. 07:39:22 not even that, although usually I'd agree 07:39:46 a reality is more than a perception, cause or effect. 07:39:48 even if there's multiple universes, they're connected to each other (however tenuously) by these forces 07:40:20 docl: hehe - NOW you can see why I begin to believe it's almost insurmountable ;-) 07:41:55 remember "perception"? Well, certain whacko/fanatics will see "crystal power" or "astrology" or "numerology" or "faith" or "platform" or "cpu" reasons. 07:41:56 codifying portions? well, you can codify them enough to be useful by selecting ideas that have a proven benefit and discarding those that are consistently poppycock (i.e. bloatware). 07:42:02 --- join: naxx (n=8121Toy@67.15.203.38) joined #forth 07:42:12 docl: we can but hope, yeah 07:42:36 PoppaVic, if those work at all, they are an interesting part of reality that needs to be explored 07:43:20 however, if they fail to work on a consistent basis, they should be discarded in favor of better ideas that do work 07:43:23 assuredly - which is how I feel about both "faiths" and "PSI", but neither lets me write a program ;-) 07:43:57 Ptolemy versus newton/others. Orbital 07:44:19 Alchemy was prolly the best example, though 07:45:01 "You can hope to RELATE 'why' - but the fact is, it _works_" ;-) 07:45:08 I think these ideas surface for a reason, and that is to point us towards a better one that actually does work. 07:45:24 alchemy -> chemistry 07:45:29 surely. But, lord - it can really drain you 07:45:33 yup 07:45:44 docl: actually, chem and physics and some others. 07:46:05 you have to develop defense mechanisms against bad ideas, otherwise they can really drive ya nuts 07:46:21 I keep thinking a forthish variant can unify, but geezus.. It's a challenge. 07:46:55 I think that's true, but I'm not sure the right infrastructure is in place yet. 07:46:59 well, a "bad idea" that WORKS, is not really "bad" - so, even that is not a marker 07:47:13 --- part: naxx left #forth 07:47:16 I agree.. It's a major challenge/issue 07:47:55 I'm trying to resolve it rooted in terms of posix and C, but it's STILL raising questions I wish I could ignore. 07:47:56 it's theoretically possible for a forthish variant to unify. how, I am not quite sure 07:48:34 http://www.starslipcrisis.com/d/20060623.shtml 07:48:52 yeah, docl - no one else is sure either.. Mostly, they'd like to create a special "reality" that is a closed-universe. 07:50:08 on the other hand, maybe the forthish style is inherently too focused to do a job like unifying all the platforms 07:50:30 no, I think it has elements in both directions. 07:50:40 ..I think C does as well. 07:51:49 as a hard bottom-line, I think too little reports too inconsistently too little to make too many assumptions (rules) and then too many forwarded assumptions. 07:52:30 yeah. that's always been the case. 07:52:31 it's interesting seeing how you CAN "resolve the universe" (posix and C) to get past it. 07:52:43 other techs are similar 07:52:50 docl: it's just silly 07:53:33 hell, even gcc itself refers to a file that is consistently inconsistent - to learn who does what to whom. 07:53:50 forth is a language where you can, and usually want to, see everything there is to see about what you're doing. 07:53:57 as a whole, forth is better organized. 07:54:07 yeppers 07:54:55 but without some amount of information-hiding, the human mind can't handle more than a certain level of complexity. 07:54:57 I suspect the issue is mostly that forthers want to think asm, but do NOT want to write a linker/loader 07:55:06 exactly 07:55:18 docl: contexts - it helps to think contexts and levels 07:56:03 I dunno' how many hours I spend asking or telling ##C folks to speak in terms of CONTEXT 07:56:35 even in ##C, they prefer to think of "stack frame" (a vague ASM-term) 07:56:37 so, how would one write a linker/loader in forth? 07:56:53 ..hell, #ASM folks pretend there is One Asm 07:57:05 yeah, fasm :P 07:57:43 docl: not sure, but it would have to be either self-referential and/or per os/platform/cpu 07:58:28 docl: if we admit to a mess, we then need to see why - and where - and how to resolve it. 07:59:15 For example... Registers: why the hell can't you learn names and widths? and use/dedication? 07:59:29 I think the main problem though is one of differing personality traits. some want to talk in intuitive terms and think in details, others want to think in intuitive terms while talking in details. 07:59:36 filters, interpreters, compilers. 07:59:51 CONTEXTS 08:01:12 it has to do with socionics quadrants. gammas want to discuss details while cogitating about the intuitive stuff, alphas want to discuss more intuitive stuff up front. 08:02:29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socionics#Quadras 08:02:37 sounds like more noise to me 08:03:00 this is one of the few times I agree with the term "layers" 08:03:28 ..and then I start thinking "wordlist" and "vocabulary" and "word" 08:04:24 abstractions and process versus reporting & feedback 08:05:03 (and I prolly misused several of those terms re: "en-gi-neers") 08:05:19 hehe 08:05:43 I keep recalling CP/M and then DOS and then - well, nm the next 08:06:02 shit, I can recall BIOS and BDOS 08:06:27 so, there were elements of all the issues for decades. 08:06:56 ..Folks just decided to leap far too far and do too much, instead of layering. 08:07:24 well it's economic pressure 08:07:41 I know - but folks are still using it as an excuse 08:07:44 you can't not leap as far as you can when there's a competition to get it done first 08:08:11 sure you can, you can buy someone elses work and call it yer own: they did with DOS. 08:08:44 but... we're in a different "context" ;-) hobbyists can afford to think it through and get it done right. 08:08:58 and, amusingly, they DID screw cp/m derivations and create a right-mess. 08:09:23 I agree on context, but not the affording. 08:09:38 well that's a relative term :P 08:10:00 docl: I believe we are sorta' back to the 12th or 14th centuries as far as "ascertain" 08:10:43 This is likely why demonstrably noxious shit like "autotools" has a following 08:11:29 intersting, however - I don't like ansi or iso - and I am beginning to formulate reasons why. 08:11:49 we're competing more for prestiege and self-worth. like other hobbies (mountain-climbing, whatever). it's not about making a profit. 08:11:56 ahhh 08:13:24 that is where I suspect I am getting peeved. It's not that immaterial crap - it's the "I can get a better job because" or "write better code" - ok... SOOOOoooo, the assorted commies WANT folks to struggle up the hill (down the valley) 08:14:09 so, it's not just "the program/app" - it's "I am sooooo kewl" 08:14:23 interesting 08:15:00 well you have to compete for *something* or you won't get anywhere 08:15:23 ..I can understand chip/ucode optimizations (from the engineer/burner view), I was unaware it permiated the whole mess. 08:15:46 docl: really? why not "my solution is better?" ;-) 08:15:56 I work cheaper? 08:16:05 I work from home? 08:16:22 hehe - amazing how the context changed 08:16:32 "my solution is better" <- self-worth and/or presteige 08:16:44 nai 08:17:10 folks can accept the statement, or test it - nai 08:17:34 docl: I think you hit the nail, and then went past it ;-) 08:19:07 I suspect this might be why the OpenBIOS folks went into biz. 08:19:19 well, public, anyway 08:19:59 --- nick: Hobart_ -> Hobart 08:21:29 hmm 08:21:59 I think I need to sleep on this and then search out drivers and daemons comparisons again. 08:22:04 laters 08:22:07 --- quit: PoppaVic ("Pulls the pin...") 09:07:10 --- quit: madwork (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 09:20:23 ok i got a MUCH better version of my debugger now - got alot of stuff to add to it still but its alot better than the previous version 09:20:25 faster too 09:34:31 --- join: snoopy_1711 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-159-117.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 09:52:53 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 09:52:53 --- nick: snoopy_1711 -> Snoopy42 10:19:30 --- join: tathi (n=josh@pdpc/supporter/bronze/tathi) joined #forth 11:35:08 --- join: Al2O3 (n=Al2O3@71.240.162.190) joined #forth 11:37:26 --- join: crc (n=crc@pdpc/supporter/active/crc) joined #forth 11:37:26 --- mode: ChanServ set +o crc 11:39:14 --- quit: Al2O3 (Client Quit) 12:03:45 --- join: Al2O3 (n=Al2O3@71.240.162.190) joined #forth 12:18:17 --- join: ttuttle (n=tom@unaffiliated/ttuttle) joined #forth 12:18:29 Quartus: Hey. 13:03:44 --- quit: ttuttle ("leaving") 13:55:31 --- quit: virl (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 14:03:46 --- quit: Al2O3 ("Leaving") 14:06:51 --- join: Al2O3 (n=Al2O3@71.240.162.190) joined #forth 14:08:09 --- quit: crc (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)) 14:09:59 --- join: virl (n=virl@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at) joined #forth 15:04:07 --- quit: Cheery ("Leaving") 16:12:00 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 16:36:27 my first fire today! shit i am beat ... and i have to go back in 4 hours again 17:54:14 --- quit: Raystm2_ ("I QUIT! ( he'll be back) NO I WILL NOT! ( yes he will) STOP THAT! ( hehe what a dweeb )") 17:57:22 --- join: Raystm2 (n=Raystm2@adsl-68-95-251-194.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 17:58:29 --- quit: Raystm2 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 18:01:11 --- join: Raystm2 (n=Raystm2@adsl-68-95-251-194.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 18:22:00 arke - what kind of fire was it? How did it start? 18:28:35 fire ? 18:55:26 --- quit: uiuiuiu (Remote closed the connection) 18:55:30 --- join: uiuiuiu (i=ian@dslb-084-056-237-000.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 19:00:44 --- join: crc (n=crc@pdpc/supporter/active/crc) joined #forth 19:00:44 --- mode: ChanServ set +o crc 19:17:29 --- quit: crc (Nick collision from services.) 19:17:51 --- join: crc (n=crc@pdpc/supporter/active/crc) joined #forth 19:17:51 --- mode: ChanServ set +o crc 19:25:33 --- quit: Al2O3 (Remote closed the connection) 20:37:24 --- join: segher_ (n=segher@dslb-084-056-136-012.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 20:44:51 --- quit: I440r (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 20:46:56 --- quit: segher (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 20:48:09 --- quit: uiuiuiu (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 20:48:09 --- quit: virl (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 20:48:09 --- quit: nighty_ (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 20:48:09 --- quit: neceve (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 20:48:09 --- quit: ayrnieu (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 20:48:09 --- quit: docl (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 20:48:09 --- quit: diverge (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 20:48:09 --- quit: Zymurgy (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 20:48:10 --- quit: michaelw (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 20:48:10 --- quit: Jim7J1AJH (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 20:48:10 --- quit: crc__ (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 20:48:10 --- quit: saon (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 20:48:10 --- quit: Shain (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 20:48:10 --- quit: warpzero (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 20:48:10 --- quit: crc (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 20:48:11 --- quit: Quartus (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 20:48:11 --- quit: arke (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 20:48:11 --- quit: Raystm2 (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 20:48:11 --- quit: gnomon (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 20:48:11 --- quit: ohub (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 20:48:12 --- quit: segher_ (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 20:48:12 --- quit: Hobart (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 20:48:12 --- quit: madgarden (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 20:48:12 --- quit: JasonWoof (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 20:48:13 --- quit: ccfg (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 20:53:23 --- log: started forth/06.06.24 20:53:23 --- join: clog (n=nef@66.114.33.57) joined #forth 20:53:23 --- topic: 'Welcome to #forth. We discuss the Forth programming language, simplicity, and a variety of technical subjects.' 20:53:23 --- topic: set by ayrnieu on [Thu Jun 22 20:55:25 2006] 20:53:23 --- names: list (clog michaelw Shain segher_ Hobart madgarden @JasonWoof ccfg) 20:53:53 --- join: warpzero (n=warpzero@66.109.132.242) joined #forth 20:54:32 --- join: nighty_ (i=nighty@62.128.181.22) joined #forth 20:54:46 --- join: crc (n=crc@pool-70-110-193-72.phil.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 22:04:27 --- join: docl (n=docl@70-101-145-1.br1.mcl.id.frontiernet.net) joined #forth 22:04:27 --- join: Jim7J1AJH (n=jim@221x115x224x2.ap221.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) joined #forth 22:04:27 --- join: ayrnieu (i=julian@ip68-13-114-58.om.om.cox.net) joined #forth 22:04:27 --- join: diverge (i=diverge@72.20.15.21) joined #forth 22:04:27 --- join: Raystm2 (n=Raystm2@adsl-68-95-251-194.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 22:04:27 --- join: Snoopy42 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-159-117.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 22:04:27 --- join: arke (n=f2@bespin.org) joined #forth 22:04:27 --- join: Quartus (n=trailer@CPE0001023f6e4f-CM013349902843.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 22:04:27 --- join: uiuiuiu (i=ian@dslb-084-056-237-000.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 22:04:27 --- join: Zymurgy (i=zymurgy@cat.delfax.net) joined #forth 22:04:27 --- join: ohub (n=oherrala@sikw1.oulu.fi) joined #forth 22:04:27 --- join: neceve (n=claudiu@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 22:04:27 --- join: virl (n=virl@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at) joined #forth 22:04:46 --- join: crc_ (i=crc@69.46.24.28) joined #forth 22:47:59 --- log: started forth/06.06.24 22:47:59 --- join: clog_ (n=nef@bespin.org) joined #forth 22:47:59 --- topic: 'Welcome to #forth. We discuss the Forth programming language, simplicity, and a variety of technical subjects.' 22:47:59 --- topic: set by ayrnieu on [Thu Jun 22 20:55:25 2006] 22:47:59 --- names: list (clog_ michaelw [Shain] crc_ docl Jim7J1AJH ayrnieu diverge virl neceve ohub Zymurgy uiuiuiu Quartus arke Snoopy42 Raystm2) 22:48:03 --- join: Hobart (i=jb@jb.org) joined #forth 22:48:04 --- join: ccfg (n=ccfg@dsl-roigw1-fe8ade00-21.dhcp.inet.fi) joined #forth 22:48:19 --- join: JasonWoof (n=jason@c-71-192-33-206.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) joined #forth 22:48:25 --- join: nighty_ (i=nighty@sushi.rural-networks.com) joined #forth 22:48:27 --- mode: ChanServ set +o JasonWoof 22:48:27 --- join: warpzero (n=warpzero@66.109.132.242) joined #forth 22:48:39 --- join: crc (n=crc@pool-70-110-193-72.phil.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 22:48:46 --- join: segher_ (n=segher@dslb-084-056-136-012.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 22:49:14 --- join: gnomon (n=gnomon@CPE000103c34069-CM014300001653.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 23:30:02 --- join: Al2O3 (n=Al2O3@71.240.162.190) joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/06.06.24