00:00:00 --- log: started forth/06.06.17 00:00:14 hmm? 00:00:28 you can put the socket words in another voc 00:00:56 ok, you don't understand my problem. 00:01:12 and probably you never will 00:01:31 what's your problem? 00:03:58 well, I said it already. 00:04:13 you think a forth implementation should only include minimum words? 00:04:41 isforth can be built without loading any extensions, iirc 00:06:22 hi guys 00:06:47 ok, then it's good. 00:07:16 virl: you may hate my forth :) 00:07:21 it comes with everything built in 00:07:28 given that isn't much yet... 00:07:56 but it is incapable incapable of importing code from files 00:08:33 JasonWoof, what is build in? 00:08:45 all the source 00:08:49 aha.. 00:09:50 it is not compiled unles you use it 00:09:52 but it is all there 00:10:02 I mean it's a hell when you sit on a terminal with no scrolling capability and then you have a forth which prints more than the screen can handle. Oh man, those guys with such a terminal are poor. 00:10:19 so why a terminal which doesn't scroll? 00:10:25 oh, I'm not into WORDS 00:10:36 I have a nice editor built in with good search functionality 00:10:36 listing all words is mostly useless 00:11:15 when you put useful documentation with your words, then ok.. 00:11:22 course I do 00:11:48 well, some words I hope it's obvious what they do, like ed-display 00:11:51 I have searchable documentation with fuzzy string matching 00:12:01 slava: oh, you made it fuzy? cool 00:12:16 yes, using the levenshtein distance algorithm 00:13:13 is the current version of factor, faster and more stable? 00:13:26 than what? 00:14:04 * JasonWoof ads a stack comment and description to ed-display 00:14:24 lol 00:15:59 than it's precursors? 00:16:18 its pretty stable and fast on Linux, but the Windows port is not well maintained and I might drop it for a while 00:17:07 well, then I take a look 00:17:52 --- quit: JasonWoof ("off to bed") 00:18:27 I'll 00:19:53 ok, compilling it's boot-image seems to be the same 00:23:59 well, compilling factor and the linux kernel has some similiar time consomption 00:24:13 consumption 00:24:26 a user only does it once, or not at all if they get a binary, so it doesn't matter 00:25:21 perhaps 00:26:17 are there any x11 window managers in forth? 00:26:52 I don't know any 00:27:10 yeha, it took 3 minutes to compile '+' 00:28:10 it takes 5 minutes to bootstrap the whole thing on my machine, what are you using? 00:28:37 well, then you have 2 Ghz or something like that. 00:28:49 I have a powermac g5 00:29:54 well, then something in that area 00:30:31 here I'm compilling with an oldschool AMD Duron with 750mHz 00:31:32 I've noticed forthers tend to like using old hardware. 00:32:07 I use that hardware which runs what I need 00:32:48 and I think that 750mHz isn't slow, ok when not respecting the hardware then it is. 00:32:59 I didn't say its slow, just old 00:35:22 well, it's easy to say that something is fast on a 2GHz+ machine 00:35:55 sometimes when programming, performance is not the only priority 00:36:00 even openoffice runs there damn fast 00:36:21 there are other concerns, such as maintainability and correctness 00:38:29 yes, performance isn't the only priority I don't say that, but it's not as some guys say 00:41:03 I think 50% of programming for performance and 50% for the other stuff, that is ok for the normal applications. 00:41:37 only a small fraction of a program's source code takes up 80% of processing time 00:41:41 there's no point optimizing everything 00:43:13 blah, it's what I think, I don't want to discuss it. When it changes I let it know you. 00:43:53 well, you should try to learn instead of just dismissing things you disagree with. 00:44:12 five more minutes and it's compilling 30 minutes 00:44:59 ehm no, what you mean is taking over things from other persons only because they say that it's correct. 00:45:00 i'll set up my 200 mhz imac and see if i can speed things up 00:46:15 when it would be an office application ok, or the X-Server also ok. but it's an interpreter language. 00:47:05 if it was interpreted it wouldn't compile anything. 00:47:22 bootstrap is slow because the optimizer takes a long time to generate code. 00:47:29 ok, ok, sry, it's forthish language. 00:49:29 what other forthish languages are complete enough to run http servers, window managers, and other non-trivial stuff? 00:50:06 I'm not trying to build a minimalist system, they already exist. 00:50:34 well, I think you are with factor the first one, the others were more thought as a toy language I think. 00:51:30 oh oh, one can run a http server, postscript ;-) 00:53:02 I thought bigforth was going well, but it got too messy and now I think its abandoned. 00:53:29 well, bigforth isn't a forthish language, it's a forth. 00:53:44 yes, but it has a GUI toolkit, editor, and other stuff for application development. 00:53:58 yeah, and it's unstable. 00:55:49 besides that it has a broken compilation process. 00:56:06 it has many problems, but it got pretty far. 00:56:46 it's simply losing it's battle with it's history and overhead 00:57:55 it might have been cleaner if it was designed in a more object oriented manner. 00:58:13 you could have cleaner boundaries and easier to test code 00:58:14 ok, factor has here 8x times slower compilation process than your system 00:58:39 i'll test it on my old machine, there's probably a few things i could tune 00:58:48 when you think... 00:59:10 15 mins would be acceptable. 01:00:10 ok, then I'll try it 01:00:24 ok, i'll try and make it twice as fast. 01:00:34 but now its 4am, i need to sleep 01:00:37 g'night 01:04:09 ok 02:04:48 --- quit: segher_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 02:14:09 --- join: segher_ (n=segher@dslb-084-056-175-159.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 02:16:45 --- join: neceve (n=claudiu@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 02:24:34 --- quit: neceve ("Ex-Chat") 02:24:44 --- join: neceve (n=claudiu@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 03:22:44 --- join: Topaz (n=top@spc1-horn1-0-0-cust255.cosh.broadband.ntl.com) joined #forth 03:26:48 --- quit: neceve ("Ex-Chat") 03:30:10 --- join: neceve (n=claudiu@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 03:33:55 --- quit: neceve (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 03:58:34 --- quit: Topaz ("Leaving") 04:06:11 hmm, but when compared to gcc compilation, then factor is damn fast 04:06:38 ok, it seems that I use too much system which get compiled fast 04:06:41 sry, slava 04:24:50 --- join: neceve (n=claudiu@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 04:26:57 --- quit: neceve (Client Quit) 04:27:08 --- join: neceve (n=claudiu@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 04:54:12 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pete@0-1pool46-33.nas30.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 04:58:35 --- quit: neceve ("Leaving") 04:58:59 --- join: neceve (n=claudiu@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 05:10:08 --- join: saon (i=1000@unaffiliated/saon) joined #forth 06:32:01 --- join: I440r (n=mark4@24-177-235-246.dhcp.gnvl.sc.charter.com) joined #forth 07:44:36 --- join: JasonWoof (n=jason@pdpc/supporter/student/Herkamire) joined #forth 07:44:36 --- mode: ChanServ set +o JasonWoof 08:35:15 --- quit: docl (Remote closed the connection) 08:55:18 --- join: PoppaVic1 (n=pete@0-1pool46-37.nas30.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 08:55:42 --- quit: PoppaVic (Nick collision from services.) 08:55:47 --- nick: PoppaVic1 -> PoppaVic 09:39:25 --- quit: neceve ("Leaving") 09:39:32 --- join: neceve (n=claudiu@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 09:40:54 --- quit: neceve (Client Quit) 10:00:29 --- join: neceve (n=claudiu@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 10:01:31 hi neceve 10:01:45 hi I440r 10:02:13 --- quit: PoppaVic ("Pulls the pin...") 10:04:25 do u use isforth? 10:51:36 --- join: [Forth] (n=Forth@24.177.235.246) joined #forth 10:52:43 I440r, no, I'm not using it 10:52:57 gforth, retroforth 10:52:59 ok. i just released a new version of it 10:53:04 with a debugger 10:53:17 its not a full release yet tho 10:53:28 need the fbsd and ppc versions brought up to date first 10:53:52 can u give me a site? 10:54:04 isforth.clss.net 10:54:10 click on download link :) 10:54:16 thanks :) 11:23:11 I440r 11:23:17 ya ? 11:23:18 $ ./kernel.com 11:23:18 Segmentation fault 11:23:21 :-s 11:23:34 did you do ./make ? 11:23:37 erm make i mean 11:23:40 neceve you did it wrong :) 11:23:42 I'm on fedora 5 11:23:55 do you have nasm installed ? 11:24:16 yes 11:24:19 $ nasm -v 11:24:19 NASM version 0.98.39 compiled on Feb 12 2006 11:24:24 ok hang on 11:24:52 look in /src/kernel/isforth.f 11:25:00 Quiznos, what I've did wrong? 11:25:10 theres a line that says %define _addr0 _addr1-0a0h 11:25:14 make it -080h 11:25:16 and try again 11:25:18 heh you ran the kernel and it segfaluted 11:28:21 mmm, I440r, is the same 11:28:43 err wtf 11:29:51 you rebuilt the kernel after making that change yes ? 11:30:43 I440r, after tar xzf, I've got messages like this: tar: isforth-1.17b/kernel.com: time stamp 2006-06-21 00:33:39 is 270778.454708 s in the future 11:30:45 :D 11:31:06 oh lol 11:31:16 thats because my damned laptop has the wrong time 11:31:24 and if i change it its wrong the next time i reboot 11:31:25 :)) 11:31:26 bleh 11:31:37 I440r ntpd 11:31:39 do a make then try ./kernel.com 11:31:46 Quiznos, i know how 11:31:51 thats not the solution 11:31:52 k 11:32:00 rebots byte 11:32:09 btw, does kernel.com support -g -ggdb? 11:32:20 whats that ? 11:32:37 the kernel doesnt support any command line stuff 11:32:40 nm, i'll use -lsegfault 11:33:23 Quiznos, there is asm files, not gcc 11:33:29 nods 11:33:33 i'm not myself atm 11:33:41 I440r: 1.17b dies with "Abort trap: 6" under FreeBSD's linux emulation 11:33:47 preloadd segfault will do it 11:33:57 crc use the fbsd version 11:34:05 which is still 1.16b atm 11:34:10 heh 11:34:12 not updated it yet 11:35:25 works ok on the debian box though 11:35:34 :) 11:35:57 try 1234 debug allocate and press step to single step and enter to nest into any colon defs 11:36:11 just keep hitting enter for now :)PO 11:36:20 headerless words are decompiled as ??? 11:37:34 the debugger looks pretty nice 11:38:10 do this... 11:38:17 : blah create , does> @ ; 11:38:20 10 blah foo 11:38:22 : test blah ; 11:38:27 then debug test :) 11:39:07 thers still problems in the debugger that im slowly sorting out, i can step all the way through allocation in my memory manager but not the free 11:39:58 neceve, does ./kernel.com segfault still ? 11:40:09 can you run the ./kernel.com that came inside the tgz ? 11:40:34 that segaults in (head) 11:40:45 what does ? 11:40:51 debug 11:41:11 when debugging : test blah ; ? 11:41:16 yes 11:41:22 everithing is seg fault, I440r 11:41:26 crc do the following at a shell prompt 11:41:39 export LD_PRELOAD=/lib/SegFault.so 11:41:40 both ./kernel.com's 11:41:40 neceve: it may be due to selinux.... 11:41:50 ulimit -c 1024000 11:41:55 ./kernel.com 11:42:06 oops, I have that thing: "selinux" 11:42:24 u think that's the problem? 11:42:32 it will help find prob 11:42:43 I know that it is a problem with the retro family of forths at least 11:42:47 oopts lol yea isforth allocates 1 meg of mem for itself lol 11:44:25 still segaults in (head) 11:44:56 crc, u have some solution about that selinux? :D 11:45:02 how do you know where its segfaulting ? 11:45:05 disable it? 11:45:08 without stop it 11:45:10 :P 11:45:15 ok 11:45:21 I am hoping to see if there is a way this summer 11:46:02 I440r: I see it 11:46:09 lol how 11:46:44 when I hit enter after the @ (to step through hhere) it says "Segmentation fault (core dumped)" 11:48:29 Quiznos: I have no SegFault.so 11:48:35 ok, with selinux off, ./kernel.com after tar xf is working 11:48:38 it's in /lib 11:48:46 but after make, is not 11:49:02 neceve, ok - im probably not going to make isforth run in selinux any time soon lol 11:49:05 Quiznos: not on my linux box 11:49:14 :) 11:49:15 does ./extend also work ?> 11:49:31 I wonder if I removed it... 11:49:48 ./extend: line 6: 12798 Done printf "fload src/isforth.f\n" 11:49:49 12799 Segmentation fault (core dumped) | ./kernel.com 11:49:58 :D 11:50:23 try a make and see if ./extend works then 11:50:50 wtf, I don't understand what is hapening 11:51:00 ? 11:54:46 I can't make it work any more 11:54:47 :( 11:55:27 something strange is hapening with my computer :-s 11:55:33 ok make that change i gave you earlier again, remake and see if kernel.com works then 11:55:39 it was ok kernel.com 11:55:40 * crc parts for a while 11:55:50 but now is only segfault 11:56:30 ok re-extract it - kernel.com runs or not ? 11:56:42 --- quit: [Forth] ("abort" Reality Strikes Again"") 11:57:41 after extract its worked only one time 11:57:55 eh ? 11:57:57 now I have segfault all the time 11:58:07 you can run ./kernel.com only ONCE ? 11:58:13 it doesnt modify itself 11:58:35 I know that 11:58:36 this sounds like another good reason not to use any product by redhat or microsoft 11:58:42 they are the same as far as i can see 11:58:49 redhat is the whore of linux 11:58:54 :) 11:59:27 whel, ubuntu is the first killer for my computer 11:59:44 I'll go back to my slack 11:59:49 gentoo 11:59:52 gentoo rox 12:00:04 i like it so much i mirror it lol 12:00:13 :)) 12:00:26 except now my main box is offline. its in texas and im in south caroline for a while lol 12:01:09 what time is to you? 12:01:19 ? 12:01:32 the hour, the clock 12:01:48 i dunno what time it actually is but my laptop thinks its 8 pm 12:06:44 hi I440r 12:06:49 hi slava 12:07:04 did a pre-release of my debugger :) 12:07:20 --- join: T0paz (n=top@spc1-horn1-0-0-cust255.cosh.broadband.ntl.com) joined #forth 12:07:24 some ppl are having problems getting the new isforth to run tho 12:07:27 i'm debugging my fuzzy string search 12:07:36 heh 12:07:44 fuzzy strings 12:07:46 hmmm 12:07:57 approximate matching 12:08:03 i know lol 12:08:09 closest match and all that 12:08:14 the algorithm i'm using is really simple actually 12:08:22 coded in forth ? 12:08:39 crc does the stuff in the dots subdir run for you ? 12:08:40 factor, but you could port it to forth, it doesn't really use any fancy features 12:08:40 cd dots 12:08:50 ../isforth -fload wmdots.f 12:08:51 main 12:12:05 I440r: does the ppc version run on os x? 12:13:39 i dunno 12:13:44 prolly not 12:13:46 so 'no', then :) 12:13:49 os x doesn't use elf 12:14:35 could probably be ported but fsave.f would need to be changed 12:30:20 I don't know why but everything is stping here: "src/kernel/reloc.1:26" 12:30:40 stoping* 12:30:57 ok that relocates the headers to head space 12:31:02 thers no reason for that to fail 12:31:21 both versions: 1.16b and 1.17b 12:31:36 may be has my computer some problem 12:31:48 ok readhat must have butchered the kernel 12:31:52 linux kernel i mean 12:32:15 yes, maybe 12:32:16 :( 12:32:33 I sow the rwtro forth is ok 12:32:37 retro* 12:33:20 I440r: perhaps its some kind of security feature, like address space randomization? 12:34:04 isforth doesnt care if the physical pages are contiguous 12:34:10 as long as they are logicall :)P 12:36:11 logically even 12:36:34 the only thing that would care about that is dma 12:36:47 does isforth assume it will be loaded at a specific address? 12:37:03 yup 12:37:14 that could be the problem 12:42:23 --- quit: neceve (Remote closed the connection) 12:45:02 --- join: neceve (n=claudiu@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 12:56:50 --- quit: I440r (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 12:57:19 --- join: I440r (n=mark4@24-177-235-246.dhcp.gnvl.sc.charter.com) joined #forth 13:01:44 slava, when we compare factor compilation time with gcc compilation time, then factor is damn fast ;-) 13:03:33 and how do you implement your factor gui? here it's ehm, slow. it reacts like blender loaded with a high detailed mesh 13:04:36 I440r: lol, it'a a hazard here. I've chaged in isforth.asm from -0a0 into -080, after that, I'm running kernel.com more times. Not all the times I have segfault. sometime it's working 13:04:37 :-s 13:04:38 the UI is not very optimized right now 13:05:22 once the design settles down I can start optimizing 13:05:40 well, I hope that it gets an opengl ui which can be compared to blenders ui in performance 13:06:26 for example if one gadget changes it repaints the whole window 13:07:41 also the layout calculations are slow 13:07:50 aha.. reminds me now on bigforth 4win 13:08:01 you can pass -shell=tty to get a terminal listener 13:08:10 for every turn it redraws the window 13:10:41 do you have a 3D card virl? 13:11:09 yes, I have a 3d card 13:11:14 what kind? 13:11:43 an ancient one, a TNT2 13:21:16 but on that one, games run smoothly 13:21:52 and can also be used with blender for lowlevel scenes 13:22:08 yes, and the factor UI has a chance of running well if X11 supports the card 13:22:14 Mesa's software GL is really slow 13:22:56 I'm going to try some optimizations right now 14:14:20 back 14:15:48 I440r: the stuff in dots subdir does work 14:15:53 though backspace does not 14:26:14 crc: factor wm: http://www.factorcode.org/factory-0.83.png 14:36:07 how long did you work on it? 14:38:22 i didn't write the wm, another guy did 14:38:39 its 656 lines of code 14:45:29 Ten more, and it's Biblical! 14:49:31 oh, 666, who cares. 15:24:07 crc cool :) 15:24:13 backspace ? 15:25:32 Being the charismatic decendant of the Christ ( last name is St. Marie ( mother of Christ) after all) and lazy as well, I've decided to forgo Revelations, as I'm too lazy to do all that crap. 15:28:27 crc did you figure out what was wrong with the debugger ? 15:30:28 no 15:30:44 ." (dotquote.org) for Forth related news 15:31:23 taygeta still isnt ready for prime-time yet 15:31:31 i found dead urls 15:31:46 ." isn't updated enough 15:31:51 i noticed 15:32:14 2006 apr 14 is last entry 15:32:37 http://tacojuice.org/plnews/Languages/Forth/index.html for a pretty much up to date source of news 15:33:09 ty 15:33:10 I440r: isForth 1.17b does not respond to backspaces for me 15:34:37 ccrweborg (kforth) is refusing connections 15:34:44 ccrweb.org 15:34:47 crap 15:35:37 i want an non-ans forth; or am i gonna have to write it myself? 15:36:54 NASA lead Administrator once again decided to ignore/over-rule his own safety-managers!!! 15:37:16 retro, reva, helforth, freeforth, isforth are all non-ans forths 15:37:33 if it needs to be in C, maybe try ATLAST 15:38:06 not c 15:38:30 i think i'm gonna 0ld-sk00l and follow Loeliger's advice 15:39:00 he basically said "dance to the beat of a different drum" 15:39:02 brb 15:41:27 --- quit: T0paz (Remote closed the connection) 15:42:46 crc run isforth and say key . then hit a backspace 15:43:29 I440r is there any info in the tarball about memory use and such? 15:44:01 no but the status bar tells you :) 15:44:13 no, i'm looking for something you've writ 15:44:19 and 'here' and 'hhere' n stuff 15:45:08 A "non-ans Forth"? No specific requirements, just somehow non-standard? 15:45:30 Quartus 0ld sk00l would be preferred wording 15:45:36 in what regards? 15:45:39 :) 15:45:48 escewing evil ANS 15:45:51 :) 15:45:58 Got that, but specifically what? 15:46:22 well ie, why is the vocabulary "path" limited? 15:46:46 ... you mean the search order? It has a minimum length of 8, but there's nothing that wires it to only 8. Can be longer. 15:46:51 i'm planning the GreatAmerican editor and i've decided to use forth as implementaiton lang 15:47:06 postpone 15:47:08 evaluate 15:47:09 a vector has an upper limit 15:47:11 invert 15:47:14 ugh 15:47:16 oh yea 15:47:19 catch/throw 15:47:21 bleh 15:47:46 what's the stack picture for bleh? 15:47:49 none of which you have to use. Yes, there's usually an upper limit. Have you actually run into this as a problem? 15:48:09 only during mental run-throughs 15:48:55 --- join: segher (n=segher@dslb-084-056-144-215.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 15:48:57 not only will i not use then i wont define them 15:49:01 I've never even bumped into 8 as a limit, but perhaps you have something unusual planned. 15:49:27 oh yea... "word lists" (camp voice) 15:50:33 and not knowing at ALL TIMES exactly what is at the top of your return stack is exactly the same as not knowing what is at the top of your parameter stack 15:50:56 --- quit: Cheery ("Leaving") 15:51:05 None of which is relevant unless you're striving to write portable code, as opposed to writing for one particular Forth. 15:51:21 If your target is one particular Forth, you can easily determine the nitty-gritty. 15:51:33 theres no such thing as portable code 15:51:51 show me portable sources and ill show you souces chock full of visually cluttering glue code and red tape 15:52:00 If you think so, then there's no worry about what's on the return stack; that'll be documented (or should be!) for whatever particular Forth you're targeting. 15:52:02 Standard or not. 15:52:14 no 15:52:25 Well, your argument is convincing, but I remain unswayed. 15:52:31 the ans standard specifically states that you cannot guarantee whats on the return stack on entry into a word 15:53:03 Absolutely. You can't guarantee that what's there in one Standard Forth is the same as what's there in another Standard Forth. It doesn't say that a particular implementation will do random things each time. 15:53:30 and that alone makes ans forths not worth the trouble 15:53:31 And they don't. You can find out what any given Forth does to the return stack, and code to that as you like. 15:53:32 imho 15:53:48 ans forth also makes a distinction betwen user and system 15:54:12 I really don't follow. If you're not trying to make portable, or semi-portable, or able-to-be-ported code, then pick a given Forth, answer the questions you need answering as regards immediacy of given words, return stack, dictionary structure, and code away. 15:54:18 yea and fill those "portable sources" wigh MORE bullshit visually clutterihng glue code and conditional compilations 15:54:20 None of it makes forth any easier to learn. 15:54:58 i wont even support conditional compilation in isforth simply to prevent that sort of bogosity 15:55:17 also. why fix things that arent broken and break things that were fixed 15:55:23 --- quit: segher_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 15:55:30 postpon fixes the non broken compile/[compile] 15:55:46 Remember the Standard documents what you can rely upon when moving from one standard system to another. It says nothing about, and puts no limits on, whatever implementation-specific stuff may be kicking around any given Forth. 15:55:51 and ans forth defined "invert" to fix not which was already fixed in 83 standard forth 15:55:52 I sware, i've been learning forth near everyday for the last 3 or 4 years, and I still can't ... 15:57:28 Quartus forth may be the only successful application of forth that I am aware of. 15:57:46 Quartus reading your posts... 15:58:09 Largest stumbling block I run into is people not believing you can do real development right on the device itself; brainwashed by the IDE folks, I think. :) 15:58:13 Quartus (i do have something speshul in mind) 15:58:18 Raystm2, forth inc details alot of places where they have used forth 15:58:38