00:00:00 --- log: started forth/06.06.16
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13:18:36 <docl> yeah Quartus, opera is a darned nice browser :)
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15:06:00 <I440r> almost ready to release new isforth with the debugger :)
15:07:57 <Quiznos> I440r !!! ltns!!
15:08:08 <I440r> hi
15:08:12 <Quiznos> how ya been?
15:08:18 <I440r> good :)
15:08:22 <Quiznos> excellent
15:08:39 <I440r> :)
15:08:41 <Quiznos> what's the version of the new release going to be?
15:08:55 <I440r> 1.17b ?
15:08:58 <Quiznos> kk
15:08:58 <I440r> its still in beta
15:09:03 <Quiznos> k
15:09:15 <I440r> when i get a metacompiler ill take it out of beta :P
15:09:27 <Quiznos> i've got 1.15b, how acient is that?
15:09:45 <I440r> actually im thinking the kenel is pretty much stabalized now, only minor changes for a long time
15:09:53 <Quiznos> k
15:10:02 <Quiznos> are you also producing changlogs?
15:10:10 <Quiznos> +e in there somewhere
15:10:35 <I440r> i make a note of what gets changed from the previous version to the new one
15:10:47 <Quiznos> that's a changelog entry; what about the file? :)
15:11:30 <I440r> i dont keep a history of every single change i ever made lol
15:11:49 <Quiznos> heh, i wasnt lookin for that kind of detail
15:11:58 <I440r> what sorta detail ?
15:12:15 <Quiznos> of what you've done since 1.15b
15:13:00 <I440r> well look in 1.16b and 1.17b :)
15:13:11 <I440r> actually the only real change here is the debugger
15:13:24 <Quiznos> kk ty
15:13:25 <I440r> had to rewrite the decompiler slightly and made some VERY MINOR changes to the kernel
15:13:48 <I440r> i had to add some coded definitions to exec.1 beause i cant "code" them in the extension
15:13:52 <I440r> i dont have an assembler yet
15:13:59 <Quiznos> k
15:14:02 <I440r> so i added them to the kernel
15:14:53 <Quiznos> regarding isforth, is it ansi?
15:14:59 <I440r> no
15:15:02 <Quiznos> k
15:15:13 <I440r> im about the most anti ans person you will ever meet
15:15:18 <Quiznos> same here
15:15:23 <I440r> i think ans forth is an abomination
15:15:27 <Quiznos> that noose is too tight
15:15:49 <Quiznos> re vocabularies, did you implement them?
15:16:14 <I440r> of corse i did
15:16:21 <Quiznos> well, some dont.
15:16:22 <Quiznos> :)
15:16:25 <I440r> fully hashed vocabylaries
15:16:29 <Quiznos> k
15:16:34 <I440r> and they are called VOCABULARIES
15:16:37 <Quiznos> kk
15:16:40 <I440r> not (camp voice) word lists
15:16:44 <Quiznos> heh
15:17:17 <Quiznos> w.o.r.d, l.s.t. a.n.s.i.i
15:17:24 <Quiznos> heh
15:17:43 <Quiznos> bbiaf, eats.
15:28:19 <Quiznos> back.
15:29:53 <Quiznos> I440r so, when vocs are sought, is it similar to how fig vocs are sought?
15:32:05 <segher_> ansii-wm.net 2007
15:32:10 <segher_> 2006, wvwn
15:32:45 <segher_> can you tell i can't type :-)
15:32:54 <Quiznos> mebya
15:33:02 <segher_> :-)
15:33:53 <segher_> and ans forth is fine, btw
15:34:00 <Quiznos> ew
15:34:30 <virl> ans forth, fine? two things that can't be mentioned in one sentences
15:34:36 <virl> sentence
15:34:38 <segher_> it doesn't tell you you cannot do things in another way
15:35:38 <segher_> you just have to add some compatibility thing if you want to claim compliance
15:35:53 <segher_> sounds fair, or what?
15:36:05 <crc> that is true
15:37:15 <segher_> good
15:38:36 <segher_> and, have you discovered the three actually hard things to get compliance yet?
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15:39:01 <virl> well, well. but some ans forths like capitalized notation, so it's not compatible with a system which is case sensitive
15:39:47 <virl> another big minus for most ans forth systems is, that they are fat.
15:39:52 <segher_> not required by the "standard".  something else please?
15:40:11 <segher_> not all.
15:40:13 <crc> standard requires caps
15:40:46 <crc> lowercase can be done as well, but to be fully compliant, you have to recognize the capitalized spelling of the words
15:40:58 <segher_> standard requires caps to be recognized when looking for standard words
15:41:10 <crc> yes, that's what I meant :)
15:41:11 <virl> so, writing in BIG LETTERS is required by the standard, well I think forth needs a better standard then.
15:41:12 <segher_> yes
15:41:53 <segher_> so make a better standard.  i certainly won't be stopping you
15:43:20 <segher_> i like the fact that we _have_ a standard.  i'm not saying it's perfect
15:43:26 <virl> well, I'm working for a year now on something compareable
15:43:32 <crc> what are the three things?
15:44:14 <virl> what are the three things?
15:44:41 <segher_> crc: i'll tell you tomorrow.  right now, i', drunk, and need to head of to bed :-)
15:44:50 <crc> ok
15:45:02 <segher_> fair enough?  :-)
15:45:08 <crc> yes
15:45:42 <crc> for my forth, to achieve full compliance I'd have to change >number, >in, and add a few more words to the ans.forth file I've slowly been writing
15:45:42 <segher_> okay, first thing -- TO is pure bollocks
15:46:05 <crc> TO is not in CORE, which is all I'm worried about
15:46:11 <segher_> that sounds fine
15:46:28 <virl> standard, pah, ans forth standard is one of the worst standards.
15:46:29 <segher_> oh just core is trivial
15:46:46 <crc> core is all that is required to claim compliance
15:47:35 <segher_> virl: you forget the fact that because it _is_ standard -- that's a huge virtue
15:47:43 <segher_> crc: true
15:48:16 <segher_> crc: any useful system will have a bit more though
15:48:28 <crc> true
15:48:46 <crc> but most of the rest can be built over core and whatever the host forth provides :)
15:48:57 <segher_> sure
15:49:05 <segher_> almost all
15:49:12 <virl> what are you talking about?
15:49:12 <segher_> _almost_ all
15:49:59 <crc> my ans compatibility layer is mostly to help in porting ans code to retro's dialect of forth
15:50:33 <segher_> virl: it help portability between application level programs, for one thing.  if you don't see the value in that --
15:50:38 <crc> HelFORTH has a full ANS compliant context, at least in CORE and I think much of CORE-EXT as well
15:51:45 <segher_> can we download helforth?
15:51:54 <crc> yes
15:52:00 <segher_> great :-)
15:52:06 <segher_> url?
15:52:13 <crc> http://maschenwerk.de/HelFORTH/downloads.html
15:52:26 <segher_> thx
15:52:26 <crc> You'd want series 2, since 3 isn't stable yet
15:52:28 <crc> np
15:52:46 * crc keeps close track of all known retroforth forks :)
15:52:48 <virl> a standard is supposed to do that, but not the ANS forth standard. 
15:52:54 <segher_> i *love* seeing other forth implementations
15:53:00 <virl> it's mindless bullshit
15:53:18 <segher_> virl: finished yet?
15:53:35 <virl> yes
15:53:43 <segher_> ok :-)
15:54:10 <crc> http://retroforth.com/ has links to Glypher, GiREF, FreeForth, HelFORTH, and Reva, as well as my RetroForth 
15:54:11 <segher_> virl: hat do you want to see instead...  forth-79?
15:54:42 <segher_> crc: did you see paflof ever?
15:54:47 <crc> no
15:54:59 <virl> retroforth as a standard for example
15:55:01 <segher_> let me try to find the link
15:55:56 <I440r> crc the word TO is one of my pet hates
15:56:14 <segher_> i440r: amen bro
15:56:21 <I440r> the word is !>
15:56:28 <I440r> ! is pronouncd store
15:56:30 <segher_> hehe
15:56:33 <I440r> > is pronounced to
15:56:37 <I440r> !> store TO
15:56:42 <I440r> not to
15:56:53 <I440r> the name to is incomplete
15:57:02 <I440r> and totally limp wristed like everything else ans
15:57:21 <I440r> isforth  use isforth as THE standard!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
15:57:22 <I440r> heh
15:57:29 <crc> *cough* swap is in the standard *cough*  ;)
15:57:34 <segher_> if you think !> is better than TO...  you're sooooooo wrong
15:57:52 <crc> I just use @ and !
15:58:05 <I440r> !> is a forth word "to" is ghey
15:58:14 <segher_> it's not about spelling anyway, it's about the concepts
15:59:04 <I440r> ok well your objection is that it can modify a constant ?
15:59:05 <segher_> re-assigning new values to constants is..  erm....
15:59:40 <I440r> ok isforth still has variable and constant but i think they were badly defined from  the start
15:59:58 <I440r> variable should have been defined the way constant was
16:00:12 <I440r> : variable create , does> @ ; or whatever
16:00:13 <segher_> my _main_ problem with the thing is that t behaves differently in compile- an interpret- state
16:00:21 <I440r> so !> is for midifying a variable
16:00:33 <I440r> isforth defines a word called var that has the same run time as a constant
16:00:43 <I440r> ans calls this a "value" which is another ghey name
16:00:46 <I440r> but isforth also has const
16:00:50 <I440r> 0 const blah
16:00:56 <I440r> blah is a state smart immediate word
16:01:08 <I440r> when you use it in a : definition a LITERAL is compiled
16:01:20 <I440r> you can still do 5 !> blah but thats bad form
16:01:26 <I440r> to be discourabed
16:01:30 <I440r> but NOT prevented
16:01:54 <I440r> discouraged even
16:02:00 <crc> : to : !> ' drop which @ :xt ! ; 
16:02:03 <segher_> you're saying "state smart" like you're proud of it?!
16:02:14 <crc> in retro, that will provide both to and !>
16:02:17 <Quiznos> it's not nice to deny a coder 
16:02:22 <I440r> theres NOTHING wrong with state smart words
16:02:37 <I440r> you cannot have ZERO state smart words
16:02:40 <crc> segher_: FreeForth has no state smart words
16:02:47 <I440r> how
16:02:54 <crc> it compiles everything, then runs the result
16:03:12 <I440r> yea. make a mountain solutin for a mole hill problem
16:03:16 <I440r> thats the ans way
16:03:19 <crc> heh
16:03:27 <crc> freeforth is far from ans
16:03:28 <I440r> state smart words are SIMPLER
16:03:36 <I440r> its still the ans way
16:03:46 <I440r> go look at postpone
16:03:56 <I440r> a hugely complex solutoin to a very simple problem
16:04:05 <I440r> thats solved with compile and [compile]
16:04:11 <I440r> neither of which is broken
16:04:16 <I440r> so didnt need fixing
16:04:42 <segher_> the *main* problem with state smart words, is if you want to override them
16:05:01 <segher_> suddenly :"
16:05:08 <I440r> why would you want to override them
16:05:26 <segher_> "two meanings" explodes exponentiallu
16:05:39 <segher_> because i have to?
16:05:51 <segher_> not my choice eh
16:05:54 <I440r> erm show me a state smart word you need to override
16:05:59 <segher_> TO
16:06:23 <I440r> ok show me an example of where you need to override it
16:06:28 <segher_> in OF, TO has a meaning for four things
16:06:39 <I440r> of as in case statements ?
16:06:52 <crc> as in open firmware
16:06:54 <segher_> OF as n Open Firmware
16:06:58 <segher_> yeah
16:07:01 <I440r> oh
16:07:15 <I440r> so its overloaded ?
16:07:19 <segher_> yeah
16:07:30 <I440r> again. a hugely complex solution to a very simple problem
16:07:31 <segher_> and that's _crap_
16:07:32 <I440r> STUPID
16:07:52 <segher_> i'll have to learn to live with it i suppose ;-)
16:08:03 <virl> most forths are too overloaded
16:08:05 <I440r> or make a new definition for 
16:08:22 <I440r> overloading is BAD
16:08:35 <segher_> yeah
16:08:41 <virl> well, your forth is also overloaded I440r 
16:08:51 <I440r> what did i overload
16:09:10 <segher_> did i440r overload whitespace yet
16:09:11 <I440r> i dont have any words that have more than 1 meaning
16:09:12 <segher_> ?
16:09:33 <I440r> i dont overload
16:10:19 <I440r> unless i did it by mistake when i wasnt watching :)
16:10:24 <virl> you have sockets per default in the system for example
16:10:50 <I440r> err and ?
16:12:11 <virl> it's overwhelming this mountain of words
16:12:13 <segher_> bed time for me
16:12:34 <segher_> see you guys later!
16:13:22 <virl> I must it really say again, crc, you did a good work.
16:13:58 <virl> streamlined, understandable, perfect.
16:30:21 <virl> what's exactly the target of isforth? giving the user a system for socket and terminals? or what?
16:30:56 <virl> do you want to integrate one day x11 for x11 programs?
16:35:32 <I440r> heh i just single stepped all the way throug my memory managers allocate word 
16:35:46 <I440r> i dont understand it when im single stepping it tho lol
16:35:55 <I440r> its damned conplex from that perspective :)
16:35:58 <Quiznos> heh
17:50:27 <Quiznos> I440r for >list@, name it cut
17:50:50 <I440r> cut ?
17:50:50 <Quiznos> or, mindful of lisp, what about car?
17:50:58 <Quiznos> i like car
17:51:09 <Quiznos> the decription is right
17:52:50 <I440r> where is that defined ?
17:53:15 <Quiznos> on your site, in list.f
17:53:24 <Quiznos> @clss.net
17:53:45 <I440r> its not in there any more :)
17:53:46 <Quiznos> is that a current site?
17:53:50 <Quiznos> oh
17:54:01 <Quiznos> @isforth.clss.net
17:54:11 <Quiznos> e/list.html
17:54:24 <I440r> yea i need to redso that
17:54:39 <Quiznos> redo what?
17:54:39 <I440r> lol
17:55:47 <I440r> clss.net
17:56:12 <Quiznos> oh
17:57:07 <Quiznos> btw, lol in variable.html, where you wrote, "the snobs were having a gay moment (like blond[e] but different) roflmao
17:57:54 <I440r> :)
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20:27:43 <Quiznos> I440r using a digit as a file extension is not a great idear, just an opine
20:27:57 <I440r> its temporary
20:28:03 <Quiznos> ty
20:28:07 <I440r> they are all going tobe .f files
20:28:11 <I440r> when i meta compile
20:28:11 <Quiznos> kk
20:28:19 <I440r> .1 is for man pages
20:28:22 <I440r> i dont care :)
20:28:23 <Quiznos> yep
20:28:30 <I440r> .f is for.... fortran
20:28:33 <I440r> im stealing .f
20:28:36 <Quiznos> k
20:30:21 <crc> hmm, have you made any progress on an x86 assembler yet?
20:31:42 <I440r> not even
20:32:33 <slava> hi
20:33:13 <I440r> currently trying to find out why i can single step some defered words but not others
20:33:29 <I440r> specifically i cant single step a defered word that is vectored to a colon definition
20:33:45 <I440r> but i CAN step into that defered word 
20:33:47 <I440r> :/
20:35:49 <slava> what's up I440r 
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20:37:12 <I440r> writing the worlds greatest forth debugger :)
20:37:48 <snowrichard> send me a tarball please :) 
20:38:36 <I440r> itll be in the release :P
20:38:47 <snowrichard> which one is yours? isforth? 
20:40:29 <I440r> yes 
20:40:55 <snowrichard> the last build I downloaded, the binary worked fine, but when I tried to build it it segfaulted
20:41:26 <I440r> ya that was a bug
20:42:20 <snowrichard> you use nasm assembler? 
20:43:08 <I440r> for now
20:45:20 <I440r> ok this has me stumped, it was working earlier lol
20:45:21 <I440r> dammit
20:46:07 <snowrichard> think my phone is ringing
20:50:15 <I440r> think ?
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21:07:11 <snowrichard> could barely hear it over the music
21:16:55 <I440r> ok time for zzz
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23:01:39 <snowrichard> hi Jason
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23:37:17 <JasonWoof> hi sn..
23:37:18 <JasonWoof> oh
23:41:24 <virl> morning JasonWoof 
23:41:26 <slava> hi JasonWoof 
23:46:57 <slava> virl: how's xell?
23:47:46 <virl> well, beginning by zero again. now the 5th time I think
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23:48:19 <slava> virl: why?
23:48:30 <virl> it got to fat
23:49:28 <virl> too
23:50:53 <slava> virl: what's wrong with isforth including socket support?
23:54:21 <virl> it's not wrong to include socket support, but I think, extensions like that, which are included in the forth itself and not in a loadable module, forms the forth into something specific. I think that forth is a language which gets fitted to the problem, but this way I have something specific which I don't want as a forth programmer.
23:54:36 <slava> what kind of module system?
23:54:54 <virl> perhaps 'include x.fs'?
23:55:05 <slava> ok
23:55:11 <slava> does isforth have vocabularies?
23:55:19 <virl> it seems to have
23:58:15 <virl> iirc, it even prints them in 'words'
23:58:24 <slava> what's the problem then?
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