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07:27:41 <Intoxicator> wow. they say that Forth is terse. I wasn't aware of that it applies for the IRC channel as well.
07:27:55 <snowrichard> hello
07:28:18 <Intoxicator> hi
07:28:18 <PoppaVic> too many variants, mindsets and implementors.
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07:30:35 <ttuttle> Quartus: Hey.
07:34:55 <Intoxicator> 'morning quartus
07:35:03 <Intoxicator> ehm srry, misread
07:35:18 <ttuttle> Intoxicator: ;-)
07:35:25 <ttuttle> Intoxicator: Do you know anything about x86 assembly?
07:35:34 <Intoxicator> yes
07:35:38 <PoppaVic> see #asm
07:35:48 <ttuttle> PoppaVic: I asked there too.  Nobody's answering.
07:35:55 <PoppaVic> not suprising
07:36:07 <ttuttle> Intoxicator: I'm writing a toy assembly OS, and I need help initializing the GDT.
07:36:19 <ttuttle> PoppaVic: Yeah, IRC is slow during the day.  Lotsa people are at work, I would guess.
07:36:27 <PoppaVic> no.. it's worse than that
07:36:44 <Intoxicator> have too look that up again myself, too long ago that i did that.
07:36:46 <PoppaVic> folks think "asm" is a language and a platform and a chip
07:36:57 <Intoxicator> can't tell you from memory anymore
07:37:05 <PoppaVic> they make egregious assumptions all over.
07:37:27 <snowrichard> intel has reference manuals in PDF you can download
07:37:33 <PoppaVic> I see similar in ##C (to a lesser extent) and #forth
07:37:37 <ttuttle> Intoxicator: My code is loaded by a multiboot bootloader (GRUB), so it's at Some Random Place (TM) in memory.  When I load my GDT with segments, I set the base to zero, since I want to access Everything In RAM (TM).  But then the offset to my code changes, so I can't jump to it.
07:38:31 <ttuttle> PoppaVic: Yeah, I guess splitting it up into platform-specific channels might help, but it's true that asm is something in and of itself.  The instruction sets vary, and some problems are platform-specific, but some of it is just "learning to think at machine level".
07:40:10 <PoppaVic> no
07:40:24 <ttuttle> PoppaVic: What?
07:40:45 <PoppaVic> asm is a weird "take me literally" language all by itself. There are apparently assortments per platform.
07:41:16 <PoppaVic> it's like writing Makefiles where you need zsh where you expected bash where sh is used, etc.
07:41:29 <ttuttle> PoppaVic: Do you mean like different assembler syntaxes?
07:41:35 <PoppaVic> assuredly
07:41:45 <ttuttle> PoppaVic: That's a pain, agreed.
07:42:14 <ttuttle> PoppaVic: /me likes nasm syntax, it's prettier than AT&T.
07:42:27 <PoppaVic> and, worse is the core assumption that "asm lays down exectly what I asked for" (if you agree on the syntax and platform, etc)
07:42:49 <ttuttle> Of course it doesn't.
07:43:00 <ttuttle> One mnemonic can have dozens of machine code forms.
07:43:00 <PoppaVic> Lotsa' issues, and folks prefer to ignore and add to them
07:43:17 <ttuttle> Hopefully, though, asm code would be written so the exact machine code doesn't matter.
07:43:24 <PoppaVic> never happen
07:43:33 <PoppaVic> even autoshit is an abomination
07:44:13 <ttuttle> PoppaVic: Why?  I actually don't think I've ever written code that depends on the actual opcodes to work right.
07:44:22 <ttuttle> PoppaVic: Using autotools for asm would be overkill, I think.
07:44:28 <PoppaVic> Well, asm-heads do.
07:44:35 <PoppaVic> and, I despise autoshit.
07:45:06 <PoppaVic> It's merely a chuckle when Forthers expect a 'word' to behave the same here and there.
07:45:17 <ttuttle> PoppaVic: Heh.  I looked at it for a project the other day.  Autotools is really unwieldy, and nobody has a good tutorial (there are tutorials, but they appear to be extremely version-dependent).
07:45:30 <PoppaVic> It's similar in ##C when folks think ansi or c99 or posix or C++ ;-)
07:45:47 <ttuttle> PoppaVic: Well, there are state-smart words, and I'm sure other ones that exhibit different behavior at different times.
07:45:53 <ttuttle> PoppaVic: /me just does -std=gnu99.
07:46:00 <PoppaVic> Yeah, sconds is often suggested - but I think I'll just keep plugging along with my own project.
07:46:33 <ttuttle> PoppaVic: I use make, but none of the other autotools.  Make is pretty useful.  (It doesn't do configuration, of course, but I'm not worrying about that yet.)
07:46:37 <PoppaVic> ttuttle: prolly not a bad choice.. I think the _best_ "portability" is trusting GCC to do whatever defaults it wants.
07:47:11 <PoppaVic> Yeah, Make is almost nice - the 'sh' and env predicattions bug me, but I am flogging.
07:47:22 <ttuttle> PoppaVic: I usually trust GCC, but you run into problems when you interface with other libraries--everyone's libc is not the same.
07:47:55 <ttuttle> PoppaVic: Heh, my Makefile is so simple it doesn't use any shell scripting.  Just simple commands (gcc, ld, and some tests)
07:47:55 <PoppaVic> I know... I feel we really need a .a/.dll/.plugin library and more libc breakout.
07:48:10 <ttuttle> PoppaVic: What do you mean?
07:48:11 <PoppaVic> that's scripting, actually.
07:48:37 <ttuttle> PoppaVic: Oh, I know, but I don't use any shell constructs.  (I don't need to worry about test or [, or variable/quoting syntax, etc...)
07:48:49 <PoppaVic> ttuttle: I think the libs are generated and linked, loaded too vaguely.
07:49:01 <PoppaVic> ttuttle: right - KISS Principle
07:49:18 <ttuttle> PoppaVic: Of course, I've never needed shell constructs.  Maybe some people do.
07:49:25 <ttuttle> PoppaVic: Vague?  I don't understand.
07:49:42 <PoppaVic> well, flow-control in shells are so bizzare it boggles the mind, yeah
07:50:24 <ttuttle> PoppaVic: Did you mean the shell flow control is vague or the generation and linking of libc is vague?
07:50:33 <PoppaVic> ttuttle: there is no C library to link and run to do any of those efforts, except dlopen/dlsym
07:51:01 <PoppaVic> so, no one can call a lib and say "eval and compile this for later"
07:51:23 <ttuttle> PoppaVic: Eval and compile what?
07:51:50 <PoppaVic> lifELF was an attempt that feel is a failure, and there are other lib-layouts, like Macosx or doze.
07:51:56 <snowrichard> coffee ... brb
07:52:08 <PoppaVic> ttuttle: source or files or strings, etc
07:52:32 <ttuttle> PoppaVic: So, basically, you mean a way for C programs to dynamically compile and link other C code?
07:52:40 <PoppaVic> Prob is, I've glared at all this too long and get brusque, I apologize.
07:53:10 <PoppaVic> ttuttle: well, more like compile/build OR link/load/run
07:53:49 <ttuttle> PoppaVic: So like a libcompiler/linker/loader... that's an interesting idea.
07:54:00 <PoppaVic> ld and such are as bad as gcc for this basic... It's a forthlike chicken/egg issue. UNDER "what should we portably support?"
07:54:11 <ttuttle> PoppaVic: I wonder if it's possible to take GCC and rewrap it so that instead of a command-line, it can be accessed within a program.
07:54:25 <ttuttle> PoppaVic: Support in terms of linker formats?
07:54:37 <PoppaVic> sure, they do it now. and, the newer gcc has that front/backend whackiness
07:55:09 <PoppaVic> ttuttle: well, build/compile to file, and link/load(start) such.
07:56:41 <PoppaVic> I never really accepted the concept of an interactive-program like Forth allowing ASM under something like *nix. On a SMC/SUM, it's not an issue - when you have an OS, you have to play well with others.
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07:57:02 <PoppaVic> SMC/SBC/
07:57:36 <PoppaVic> Maybe what we need is an OS-forth variant. hmmm
07:57:40 <ttuttle> PoppaVic: It must be hard to implement assemblers and disassemblers on x86 (especially under Linux) because of code protection.
07:57:43 <PoppaVic> ..I did NOT want to go there
07:57:53 <ttuttle> PoppaVic: Do you mean like a Forth-based OS?
07:58:08 <PoppaVic> ttuttle: no idea, I expect they fold corners.
07:58:25 <ttuttle> PoppaVic: I'm sure there's a way to do it.  It's just not straightforward.
07:58:25 <PoppaVic> ttuttle: no.. I meant a "forth" 100% dedicated to the kernel/os
07:58:31 <Intoxicator> x86 assemblers are mor of a pain because of the relatively irregular instruction set and opcode map.
07:58:34 <Intoxicator> more
07:58:44 <ttuttle> PoppaVic: Like a Forth where they say "this Forth is designed to run on Linux" instead of making it portable?
07:58:48 <ttuttle> PoppaVic: More people should do that.
07:59:12 <ttuttle> PoppaVic: Like Linus once said, portability is more about implementing a standard set of (platform-independent) features for a particular platform.
07:59:15 <PoppaVic> maybe it would be "this kernel and OS is predicated on the forthlike Flubber system"
08:00:22 <PoppaVic> yeppers, options/dispatcher, or calls - but you STILL have to fight like a cumguzzlinggutterslut to learn about regs or free-regs or widths or type-sizes and alllll the other ABI issues.
08:03:04 <tathi> ttuttle: did you solve your problem with the GDT routine?
08:03:43 <ttuttle> tathi: No.  I just don't know how to jump back to any of my existing code, because I've changed the CS from something I don't control to the bottom of RAM.
08:03:51 <PoppaVic> Issues like: 1) Register names, widths; 2) Registers reserved; - into kernel and OS issues ;-)
08:04:16 <tathi> ah.  tricky
08:04:28 <ttuttle> tathi: You know any x86 asm?
08:04:41 <PoppaVic> remember too, if yer using the OS "RAM" itself is tricky.
08:04:47 <ttuttle> PoppaVic: I am the OS.
08:04:50 <tathi> some
08:04:58 <tathi> I can read it; haven't written any in years
08:05:13 <PoppaVic> use gcc and -S
08:05:22 <PoppaVic> ..it's all I can offer
08:06:05 <ttuttle> PoppaVic: How does that help?
08:06:17 <PoppaVic> only in generating asm
08:06:26 <PoppaVic> I think yer far under that, however
08:06:35 <ttuttle> PoppaVic: I'm writing in asm.
08:06:46 <ttuttle> PoppaVic: (And some C, for the parts that are easier in C.)
08:06:49 <PoppaVic> hehe - scroll back ;-)
08:07:18 <ttuttle> ?
08:07:44 <PoppaVic> ttuttle: s;ok - yer tickling my funnybone is all.. We already berated this ;-)
08:10:35 <tathi> ttuttle: how are you planning to use the routine?  what's your memory model like?
08:11:00 <tathi> I'm not sure there is a good solution in the general case, but you ought to be able to find something that works for your needs...
08:13:06 <ttuttle> tathi: My memory model is flat.  Two huge overlapping code and data segments, pointed at all of RAM.
08:13:38 <PoppaVic> Yer digging a hole, I'd wager my left nut
08:13:48 <tathi> ah.  colorforth does the same
08:14:08 <tathi> what it does is to copy the code to a known address and branch to there
08:14:23 <ttuttle> tathi: That's a good idea.
08:14:34 <tathi> and then set the GDT, so that the code segment doesn't actually change
08:15:08 <ttuttle> tathi: /me is going to try that.
08:16:06 <tathi> ok.  I can find the actual asm code from colorforth if that would help
08:16:16 <tathi> but it sounds like you're fairly good with the details
08:16:42 <PoppaVic> sounds like mmap executables.
08:17:25 <ttuttle> PoppaVic: Sorta.  Grub loads the code in some place (I'm not sure yet), and I need to know where it is.  So I can 1. find it or 2. move it somewhere I know.
08:17:44 <PoppaVic> it loads an image, actually
08:18:00 <PoppaVic> the image and RAM are not ROM or VRAM, etc
08:18:27 <PoppaVic> _everything_ needs a loader - even the loader - right down to the bios.
08:25:35 <PoppaVic> ..be advised: even the CPU has the rudements of a "loader"
08:27:01 <ttuttle> PoppaVic: That's nothing.  My mobo at home has an expansion card that can mail-order and install a CPU if you don't put one in.
08:27:10 <ttuttle> PoppaVic: :-)
08:29:25 <ttuttle> Is it bad form to include a preinitialized GDT in your kernel image itself?
08:29:36 <ttuttle> Is it better to copy it to a known location in memory?
08:30:29 <tathi> dunno
08:30:51 <tathi> IIRC pentium manuals say it's better if it's on an 8-byte boundary or something
08:31:13 <PoppaVic> factors of 2, starting from 8, anyway
08:31:16 <tathi> other than that I don't know that it matters much
08:31:34 <ttuttle> Bwahahaha, I will align to a 4GB boundary ;-)
08:31:42 <PoppaVic> ttuttle: maybe read the source for grub or kernel?
08:31:50 <PoppaVic> yer nuts
08:32:01 <tathi> look who's talking
08:32:03 * ttuttle knows.  And you're not one to talk. :-p
08:32:05 <ttuttle> tathi: lol
08:32:17 <PoppaVic> tathi: ouch
08:32:27 <ttuttle> tathi: He's heard it before, don't worry.
08:32:32 <PoppaVic> well, feel free to be insane ;-)
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08:33:18 <tathi> sanity is boring
08:33:31 <tathi> who needs it? :)
08:33:40 <PoppaVic> boredom is a personal problem and a mindset
08:33:52 <PoppaVic> I've never been bored.
08:34:21 <PoppaVic> otoh, I wasn't raised on video-games and "instant-gratification", either.
08:34:33 <PoppaVic> anyway, have fun
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08:34:53 <snowrichard> oh he didnt' "Pulls the pin " today :) 
08:35:51 <virl> lol
08:53:17 <ttuttle> lol
08:57:59 <virl> asm, well, pope doesn't like it. 
09:06:17 <snowrichard> hello back...
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10:36:28 <snowrichard> got to go deliver my son to football practice see y lattter
11:18:32 <snowrichard> I'm back...
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13:22:47 <LOOP-HOG> hi
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13:24:00 <LOOP-HOG> hi
13:24:34 <snowrichard> hello
13:24:54 <snowrichard> I think I've seen your website LOOP-HOG
13:25:01 <LOOP-HOG> oh
13:25:11 <LOOP-HOG> the Forth links site, it's out of date
13:25:35 <LOOP-HOG> I'm afraid that if the new Forth chips take off, that there will be new links to add
13:27:29 <virl> when will they take off?
13:27:34 <LOOP-HOG> ??
13:27:59 <LOOP-HOG> maybe by the end of the year, when they become available
13:28:53 <LOOP-HOG> supposedly there will be some tools, a simulator released by the end of this month.  
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15:02:47 <crc> good evening
15:12:52 <LOOP-HOG> hi
15:13:02 <LOOP-HOG> anything on your mind?
15:23:32 <crc> not too much
15:24:50 <crc> I'm presently continuing to work on the retroforth.org site, cleaning it up, etc
15:24:57 <LOOP-HOG> Any thoughts on the new Forth chip
15:26:16 <crc> not yet
15:26:22 <LOOP-HOG> It's too early
15:26:27 <crc> I haven't done a lot of research on them yet
15:26:28 <crc> yeah
15:28:19 <LOOP-HOG> anyway, the site looks nice
15:28:34 <crc> thanks
15:28:52 <crc> I still have a lot of content to bring back to an accessible state though :(
15:29:49 <LOOP-HOG> ok
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15:38:49 <I440r> ok so my debugger can single step now:)
15:38:51 <I440r> got a few kinks but its working :)
15:39:46 <LOOP-HOG> do you find that you use a debugger alot?
15:39:56 <I440r> in forth ?
15:39:59 <LOOP-HOG> yea
15:40:07 <I440r> no i prefer not to but sometimes i miss it
15:40:27 <LOOP-HOG> I think its more disciplined to to use one in Forth, so I make myself not do it
15:40:51 <I440r> this one is kinda nice :)
15:40:57 <LOOP-HOG> how so?
15:41:06 <I440r> nice user interface
15:41:23 <I440r> nice windowed display
15:41:38 <I440r> console stuff not x
15:41:46 * Raystm2 trying to understand isForth windowing system.
15:41:47 <I440r> u use isforth ever ?
15:41:52 <LOOP-HOG> no
15:42:00 <LOOP-HOG> I've only used a few different Forths
15:42:21 <I440r> k well isforth is geared towards the beginner
15:42:30 <I440r> yet powerfull enough for the more advanced user
15:42:34 <LOOP-HOG> that's good
15:42:46 <I440r> to create a window you have to create a screen first
15:42:51 <I440r> windows go in screens
15:43:09 <LOOP-HOG> then you can have multiple wondows in the same screen?
15:43:14 <I440r> yes
15:43:18 <LOOP-HOG> And you only have one screen?
15:43:21 <I440r> you can even have multiple screens
15:43:24 <Raystm2> To create a screen I have to run isForth first. To run isForth I have to download a linux. :)
15:43:31 <I440r> lol
15:43:35 <LOOP-HOG> right
15:43:39 <I440r> well get to it :P
15:43:39 <crc> Raystm2: or ssh into retroforth.org....
15:43:52 <LOOP-HOG> I have the thought every now and then to get a unix so that I can run a muck
15:43:53 <Raystm2> ooh
15:44:00 <Raystm2> thanks crc.
15:44:12 <LOOP-HOG> Maybe I could just ssh
15:44:17 <I440r> i suggest not making a screen as tall as your display. 1 less than
15:44:19 <I440r> is best
15:44:23 <LOOP-HOG> I promise not to create any infinate loops
15:44:34 <Raystm2> 1 line? pixel? 
15:44:36 <I440r> that way the bottom line is never written to which could cause a scroll
15:44:41 <I440r> line of text
15:44:44 <Raystm2> oh okay.
15:44:51 <Raystm2> thanks for tip. :)
15:44:56 <I440r> the constant cols has the screen width
15:44:59 <I440r> and rows the height
15:45:06 <I440r> cols rows 1- screen my-screen
15:45:24 <Raystm2> got it. do I assume 80x24 or do I set them?
15:45:36 <I440r> set what ?
15:45:42 <I440r> cols and rows are set on entry into isforth
15:45:52 <Raystm2> doh! let me set constants, lord.
15:45:54 <I440r> but if your in an xterm i dont know if you change the size
15:46:07 <I440r> 5 !> my-constant
15:46:12 <I440r> isforth allows you to do so
15:46:19 <I440r> 0 var fudge
15:46:29 <I440r> a var is like a value but the name isnt limp wristed
15:46:34 <I440r> and SUGGESTS a variable
15:46:38 <I440r> 0 var x  
15:46:41 <I440r> 100 !> x
15:46:53 <I440r> !> is pronounced "store to"
15:46:59 <I440r> the word "to" is stupid
15:47:08 <I440r> :P
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15:48:48 <I440r> damn
15:49:28 <I440r> LOOP-HOG, do you have isforth ?
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15:52:19 <LOOP-HOG> NO, I don't even have a unix
15:52:26 <I440r> oh
15:52:40 <I440r> then decyphering my windowing stuff is not going to be easy heh
15:52:44 <LOOP-HOG> I would want to get a 2nd machine, and then run both a unix machine and a windows machine at the same time, on the same DSL line
15:52:46 * Raystm2 has isforth running 
15:52:46 <I440r> you looking for something in dos ?
15:52:59 <LOOP-HOG> no
15:53:04 <I440r> oh
15:53:10 <I440r> Raystm2, in fbsd ?
15:53:53 <Raystm2> only crc knows the answer to that question.
15:54:09 <I440r> :)
15:55:02 <crc> I440r: on my Debian Linux server
15:55:09 <I440r> aha
15:55:17 <Raystm2> oh okay.
15:57:00 <Raystm2> I440r: this is mostly ANS?
15:57:05 <I440r> no
15:57:13 <I440r> im anti ans 
15:57:22 <Raystm2> OH okay.
15:57:35 <I440r> ans forth is crippled
15:57:38 <I440r> and crippling
15:57:55 <I440r> i KNOW whats at the top of my return stack at ALL TIMES
15:58:14 <Raystm2> Okay, crc has installed the files required to run the windowing system. 
15:59:03 <crc> Raystm2: do "fload evil.f" without the quotes to load a hack to allow multiple entry points like in retro or colorforth...
15:59:15 <Raystm2> haha okay
15:59:38 <Raystm2> loaded.
16:00:16 <Raystm2> I440r: fload term.f ?
16:00:33 <I440r> no
16:00:37 <I440r> try this
16:00:44 * Raystm2 looks at the sources downloaded earlier today..
16:00:48 <I440r> ./isforth -fload src/examples/window.f
16:00:58 <I440r> the term stuff is already loaded
16:01:02 <crc> fload src/examples/window.f
16:01:16 <crc> I440r: the user ray is using runs isforth as the shell 
16:01:44 <I440r> aha ok
16:01:47 <I440r> cool :)
16:01:51 <I440r> and that works ?
16:01:58 <Raystm2> haha cool.
16:03:09 <Raystm2> I don't have to fload that again, if i've fload'ed it allready, so what is the word that starts that example, after i've already stopped it?
16:03:18 <I440r> erm
16:03:21 <I440r> lol hang on
16:03:39 <Raystm2> erm :) no that's not it. and lol hang on isn't it either . :)
16:03:40 <I440r> wintest
16:03:43 <Raystm2> okay
16:03:52 <I440r> i dont know if you can run it again
16:04:01 <I440r> i dont think it deallocates the windows lol
16:04:16 <I440r> hrm no looks like it dows
16:04:19 <I440r> does
16:04:23 <Raystm2> I don't think i have the columns or rows set properly for this windows window.
16:04:43 <Raystm2> wintest runs it again.
16:05:02 <I440r> no thats not your problem :)
16:05:11 <Raystm2> okay.
16:05:11 <I440r> wintest isnt very well coded
16:05:19 <I440r> it doesnt adjust window sizes
16:05:30 <I440r> i run in a 100 by 36 terminal
16:05:41 <Raystm2> cool how the black box goes over the blue box on the return pass.
16:06:12 <I440r> yea :)
16:06:21 <I440r> i specifically wanted to show that feature :)
16:06:47 <Raystm2> very neat. Okay, lets turn it into a web browser. Got any network code?
16:06:53 <Raystm2> :)
16:06:57 <I440r> yup :)
16:07:01 <I440r> i got sockets code
16:07:03 <I440r> try doing
16:07:09 <I440r> hang on
16:07:28 <I440r> fload src/bot/bot.f
16:07:32 <I440r> then run bot
16:08:19 <Raystm2> bot running...
16:08:39 <I440r> erm it should join this channel if i didnt accidently release a version that doesnt lol
16:09:04 <Raystm2> okay, sure, it loaded io.f, irc.f and numeric.f
16:09:09 <Raystm2> but that's all it did.
16:09:17 <I440r> type....
16:09:18 <I440r> bot
16:09:24 <Raystm2> infact, I think it crashed.
16:09:33 <I440r> eek!
16:09:45 <Raystm2> prob'ly wasn't supposed to be run from a shell account.
16:09:52 <I440r> it should be fine
16:10:11 <Raystm2> I have no joy at this end.
16:10:35 * Raystm2 ends session. 
16:10:47 <Raystm2> crc: does this have any consequences for you?
16:13:34 * Raystm2 hopes he didnt' kill crc. :)
16:14:38 <Raystm2> oh wait. maybe I just needed to wait till the bot established connections and the like.
16:14:53 <Raystm2> That should take atleast a little time, no?
16:15:15 <crc> Raystm2: it makes no impact on me when you log in or out of the server
16:16:21 <Raystm2> okay, but what about trying to run an irc client from your server in isforth? is there any issue there?
16:16:36 <Raystm2> permissions maybe?
16:16:49 <crc> ooh, yeah I forgot
16:16:58 <crc> the irc ports are blocked...
16:17:03 <I440r> lol
16:17:13 * Raystm2 is happy to read that.
16:17:14 <crc> (by the data center)
16:17:44 * Raystm2 doesn't know the term data center.
16:17:52 <Raystm2> part of the server?
16:18:02 <Raystm2> oh is this server offsite?
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16:18:19 <I440r> thats the bot
16:18:27 --- quit: [Forth] (Client Quit)
16:18:34 <Raystm2> your running the bot from home I440r?
16:18:40 <I440r> pressing x quits it
16:18:43 <I440r> ya
16:18:46 <Raystm2> okay okay.
16:18:49 <I440r> but i quit it :)
16:18:52 <crc> Raystm2: my server is a vps, not a local box
16:18:53 <Raystm2> ya
16:19:18 <Raystm2> okay crc. thanks.
16:20:43 <Raystm2> BUT-- should I want to use isforth as an example for windowing and for getting on the net work, those files are the examples?
16:21:00 <I440r> yes
16:21:03 <I440r> brb
16:23:13 <Raystm2> ooh cool, mama delivery just dropped off sustenance.
16:23:50 <Raystm2> You know, if I had enough money, I would never have to leave the bed, ( save to use the restroom) :)
16:24:06 <Raystm2> And somedays, I just don't wanna get up.
16:25:26 * Raystm2 home with a bad infected foot.
16:25:32 <Raystm2> Red defines a new infection. Green it the compiled portion of the foot that needs to be removed. White is the puss. Yellow is the keeper flesh. Magenta is the variable flesh that is infected but still a keeper. Cyan is just plain wrong in this case.
16:25:44 <Raystm2> and that's colorFoot.
16:30:03 <crc> heh
16:34:17 <I440r> :)
16:43:24 <LOOP-HOG> lol
17:08:47 --- join: cr1 (n=crc@pool-70-16-148-192.phil.east.verizon.net) joined #forth
17:08:58 <Raystm2> Hello cr1.
17:09:09 <cr1> hi ray
17:09:18 --- quit: crc (Nick collision from services.)
17:09:21 --- nick: cr1 -> crc
17:09:26 --- mode: ChanServ set +o crc
17:10:06 <Raystm2> different client?
17:11:47 * Raystm2 reading Forth Applications, and Dr. Dobbs Toolbook of Forth Vol2 as a primer to reading how isForth windowing and netstuff works.
17:12:07 <Raystm2> Of course, all of that old stuff is F83.
17:12:18 <Raystm2> Mostly used with MVP-Forth.
17:13:47 <I440r> Raystm2, does that have an article on forth sort methods written by my father ?
17:15:56 <Raystm2> Does not have a Manning in the list of Authors.
17:16:14 <I440r> ok
17:16:36 <Raystm2> Possible that he's in vol 1.
17:16:47 <Raystm2> I don't own that one, yet.
17:17:11 <I440r> yea might have been vol 1
17:17:30 <Raystm2> Of course, everything you ever wanted to know is in the vol  you don't have yet...
17:17:40 <I440r> lol
17:18:16 <Raystm2> So, dad's a published Forth Guru?
17:18:23 <I440r> ya
17:18:27 <Raystm2> Way cool.
17:18:36 <I440r> but i know more forth than him now :)
17:18:40 <Raystm2> :)
17:19:01 <Raystm2> I play better guitar then my dad, son on his way to beat me. :)
17:19:58 * Raystm2 considers that neither tallent makes one very solvent. :)
17:20:58 <I440r> heh
17:21:02 <I440r> i play guitar too
17:21:08 <I440r> i dont have a son :(
17:21:10 <I440r> or a wife
17:21:12 <I440r> doh!
17:21:42 <Raystm2> That's okay, Just take the G-string from over the hole.
17:26:29 <Raystm2> (tap-tap ( feedback)) -- "Is this thing on? These are the jokes, folks" 
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17:33:41 <LOOP-HOG> I'm busy, just poking my head in once in awhile, but regularly
17:36:10 <Raystm2> Np, LOOP-HOG, I just thought that was funny too. :)
17:36:21 <LOOP-HOG> :)
17:41:10 <Raystm2> I440r: I defined ....
17:41:19 <Raystm2> : crs for cr loop ;
17:41:22 <Raystm2> and called
17:41:24 <Raystm2> 2 crs
17:41:31 <Raystm2> and the program exited?
17:41:31 <I440r> no not loop
17:41:34 <Raystm2> oh
17:41:40 <Raystm2> not next either...
17:41:43 <I440r> : crs for cr nxt ;
17:41:50 <Raystm2> ah nxt thanks
17:41:58 <I440r> i didnt call it "next" because next is part of the vm
17:42:10 * Raystm2 is about to create B18chess for isforth.
17:42:10 <I440r> next is SPECIAL in forth
17:42:13 <Raystm2> yes.
17:42:14 <Raystm2> :)
17:43:03 <Raystm2> I guess I need a words listing... I was about to ask a stupid question that a words listing would answer.
17:43:42 <Raystm2> so just type "words" and wha-la.
17:44:04 <I440r> :)
17:51:54 <Raystm2> crc: is it possible to get a 'ray' folder in your isforth folder, where I can upload my cr-apps? :)
17:52:28 <I440r> :)
17:52:34 <I440r> read my readme :P
17:52:48 <Raystm2> okay reading...
17:57:22 <crc> Raystm2: it's created
17:58:07 <Raystm2> You are very kind. :)
17:58:20 <crc> not a problem
17:58:43 <crc> Raystm2: you still haven't done a b18chess for retro yet....
18:00:34 <Raystm2> both at the same time, muuuwaaahahahah
18:00:51 <Raystm2> same file with minor changes. 
18:02:27 <Raystm2> crc: permissions, please? :)
18:03:39 * Raystm2 has a new approach in back of mind that includes the use of the FEN notation.
18:04:53 <Raystm2> I was re-writeing each individual move out to a save-game-file and then reading in the moves from that file individually, for persistance. This was done in an Engrish format for readability outside of the program. 
18:05:25 <Raystm2> This time I have a neat idea for a menu system that allows you to page thru any move in several saved games. 
18:06:04 <Raystm2> AND branch from any board position any number of times, so that you can experiment with moves, then go back to the main game.
18:07:23 <Raystm2> There always was too boards on the screen, so I was just gonna freeze the second board after the first branch, so you could see the last move, then re-load that board when you are ready to execute the move.
18:07:33 <Raystm2> sp/too/two
18:08:47 <Raystm2> the new approach teaches me...
18:08:54 <Raystm2> 1) linked lists in forth
18:09:05 <I440r> is fen notation the e2-e4 crap ?
18:09:07 <Raystm2> 2) parsing variable lenth strings.
18:09:12 <I440r> i prefer the p-k4 
18:09:21 <Raystm2> no FEN is a board listing like
18:09:28 <I440r> oh
18:09:37 <I440r> does your program play against the human ?
18:10:32 <Raystm2> rnbkqbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/pppppppp/rnbkqnr plus some other stuff and ya I know I got the q and the k sdrowkcab
18:11:59 <Raystm2> I440r: to be more precise, the game is 2 human players, it's not so much the chess engine here, but a smart board that can take input and resolve the board properly.
18:12:24 <Raystm2> An ai to drive this is a goal.
18:12:32 <I440r> cool
18:12:39 <I440r> can u play against someone online ?
18:12:50 <Raystm2> yes, share the save-game file.
18:12:58 <I440r> live ??? :)
18:13:02 <Raystm2> have each a client.
18:13:08 <I440r> yes
18:13:21 <I440r> u could do a game SERVER or have dcc
18:14:11 <Raystm2> each client points to the same save-gamefile and it would work just fine, a person would have to type the command s to see the current move.
18:14:47 * Raystm2 has to work out a couple of firewalls to get dcc working properly.
18:15:18 <Raystm2> currently the b18chess works in win32forth and Gforth.
18:15:32 <Raystm2> I've promissed crc a retroforth version for like ever now...
18:18:30 <Raystm2> thing to make this more convenient to two players is to redefine command s to signal the opponant client also to also execute when command s is executed at the other.
18:18:51 <Raystm2> yikes I typed that sentence.
18:20:32 <Raystm2> next level is to bring in the kind of notation you were just speaking of. 
18:20:44 <Raystm2> but currently, examples of input are.
18:20:48 <Raystm2> e2e4 s
18:20:56 <Raystm2> e2 e4 s
18:21:12 <Raystm2> e2 s ( for pawns moving in the same file )
18:21:49 <Raystm2> e50d s would be an example of en passont entry.
18:21:53 <I440r> :)
18:22:03 <Raystm2> oo and ooo for castleing
18:22:22 <Raystm2> and that's about it. 
18:22:30 <Raystm2> there is unlimited undo.
18:22:34 <I440r> :)
18:22:40 <I440r> why the s ?
18:23:06 <Raystm2> s means save, show, send.
18:23:24 <I440r> why not have enter do that ?
18:23:31 <Raystm2> it can.
18:23:34 <Raystm2> it should.
18:23:37 <Raystm2> it will.
18:24:10 <Raystm2> please be of mind that, this was 3-4 years ago, I had just found gforth, win32forth and Starting Forth all about the same time.
18:24:24 <Raystm2> it was the first thing i ever complete with "real" forth.
18:24:52 <Raystm2> I tryed to learn forth so I could use colorforth, but I finished 5 chesses in colorforth first.
18:26:01 <Raystm2> i'm planning 4 more colorforth chess games that ad more and more ai with each iteration.
18:26:20 <I440r> :)
18:26:52 <I440r> i think colorforth is not forth in the same way ans forth is not forth
18:27:07 <Raystm2> You have a great point.
18:27:31 * Raystm2 is awaiting the '06 version before doing anything else...
18:27:50 <Raystm2> Jeff Fox said it shall be released soon.
18:28:28 <I440r> cool
18:28:33 <I440r> does he still come in here ?
18:29:57 <Raystm2> http://www.scaryideas.com/Cartoons/ITProjects/project_1.5.html
18:30:28 <Raystm2> I see him in the cfmailinglist more then on irc, but he's been in #c4th-ot a time or two.
18:41:07 <Raystm2> Oh I forgot,  redefining the word first-positions allows you to predefine the board.
18:41:27 <Raystm2> so play the game you found in the newspaper, no problem.
18:42:35 <I440r> :)
18:43:09 <snowrichard> hello
18:43:19 <Raystm2> hi snowrichard
18:44:13 <Raystm2> crc: ping?
18:45:22 <Raystm2> crc: isforth/ray permission w please?
18:46:03 * Raystm2 may need something similar for the retroforth directory as well.
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18:51:22 <I440r> ok time for zzz
18:51:24 <I440r> :)
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19:13:13 <crc> Raystm2: pong
19:14:15 <crc> Raystm2: you should be able to write to the 'ray' directory now
19:14:32 <Raystm2> thank you sir!
19:14:38 <crc> np
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19:20:50 <slava> hi crc
19:22:29 <crc> hi slava
19:22:52 <slava> i'm redesigning my co-operative task scheduler
19:22:54 <slava> how's retroforth going?
19:24:09 <crc> it's going pretty well
19:24:33 <slava> what are you working on?
19:25:12 <crc> mostly cleanups
19:25:57 <crc> some improvements to the FFI, to make callbacks cleaner and more reliable under Windows
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19:34:30 <slava> the windows port of factor is falling behind
19:36:16 <crc> why?
19:36:23 <slava> well, its not maintained really
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23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/06.06.14