00:00:00 --- log: started forth/06.06.07
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00:29:10 <snowrichard> hi
00:30:04 <arke> Hi.
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02:14:03 <snowrichard> hello
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05:34:23 <snowrichard> hi tathi
05:37:04 <tathi> hi
05:37:08 <tathi> how goes it?
05:37:16 <PoppaVic> Plugging along ;-)
05:38:21 <snowrichard> found a major bug in my rstudio program.. must have been asleep when I coded that part. 
05:38:31 <PoppaVic> Still glaring at "Dispatch()" - there is a definite issue in here. Gotta' clarify it. I suspect it's a viewpoint/paradigm issue.
05:38:33 <tathi> rstudio?
05:38:46 <snowrichard> http://richardsnow.net/BYORS.html
05:39:17 <tathi> ah
05:50:03 <PoppaVic> I am beginning to consider adding ..., va_list ap); to Dispatch. AND, maybe a "char *fmt" to Klass and Instance.
05:50:52 <PoppaVic> Presuming I can use NULL in place of 'ap' to MANDATE they use the DS.
05:52:22 <PoppaVic> or, shit.. maybe every klass/instance should generate a va_list for passdown into C/abi? and to/from colon-defs?
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05:54:23 <PoppaVic> Somehow (seems to me) I need to multiplex assorted engine "registers" into C and then back again.
06:27:04 <PoppaVic> stay well, I think I'll bail awhile
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06:42:51 <snowrichard> hi tathi
07:10:05 <tathi> snowrichard: you said that already :)
07:10:13 <arke> hi tathi 
07:10:14 <arke> I haven't
07:10:15 <arke> :)
07:10:54 <tathi> hi arke
07:12:47 <snowrichard> I've read that $99 book on C++ I have
07:13:04 <snowrichard> glad I didn't pay for it 
07:14:35 <snowrichard> freshmeat just posted my bugfix release
07:14:58 <tathi> enjoy your 7 minutes of fame :)
07:15:36 <snowrichard> coding while asleep apparently doesn't work too well
07:16:02 <snowrichard> or rather when you haven't slept enough
07:17:21 <tathi> nope
07:19:49 <snowrichard> I installed DDD to figure out what was going on
07:20:53 <snowrichard> then it was slap forehead Doh
07:25:28 <snowrichard> so what are you guys working on? anything? 
07:27:38 * tathi is thinking about web browser design
07:29:26 <snowrichard> what about it? something between lynx and mozilla? 
07:29:46 <tathi> yeah
07:30:02 <tathi> more just trying to figure out a good approach for implementing such a beast in Forth
07:30:19 <snowrichard> multiple threads would help I guess
07:31:23 <arke> tathi: sounds fun :D
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07:31:46 <arke> tathi: make an FML backend and have the front end translate over ;)
07:32:22 <arke> <p>lalal</p><p>fooo</p> --> p lalal p fooo
07:32:52 <PoppaVic> hehe - I think I see the "issue", tathi - not sure how to resolve it.
07:32:54 <tathi> yeah, but you probably need a document tree at some point
07:33:13 <tathi> e.g. you can't figure the whole table size until you have the whole table
07:33:28 <PoppaVic> Unless each table is size-predicated
07:34:25 <tathi> yeah, you can't depend on that
07:37:38 <PoppaVic> you CAN depend on it, if you can properly embed it - otherwise, yer back to the whole "forever-until" issue
07:38:20 <tathi> if you're trying to render an HTML page that you downloaded from the web, you absolutely can not depend on the tables having sizes encoded ahead of time
07:39:42 <PoppaVic> I agree with that
07:42:07 <arke> I think I could write a good browser
07:42:21 <PoppaVic> hehehehaha
07:43:05 <PoppaVic> lynx? links? w3m? IE? moz? ns? other?
07:43:08 <tathi> me too
07:45:18 <arke> I said good browsre
07:45:19 <arke> :)
07:45:34 <arke> as in, without memory leaks and excessive memory and CPU usage
07:45:35 <arke> :)
07:45:40 <PoppaVic> "good" is subjective - so, keep pushing
07:47:14 * arke and tathi could make a really nice browser backend
07:47:15 <arke> :)
07:47:38 <tathi> lynx has my favorite user interface of existing browsers, but doesn't handle tables/frames/CSS/etc
07:48:00 <tathi> links and w3m do better with feature support, but their UIs aren't so nice
07:48:25 <tathi> firefox does nice graphical rendering, but the UI totally blows and it's extremely slow
07:48:49 <arke> I like konq
07:49:17 <tathi> hmm, never tried it.
07:49:37 <tathi> don't think I have space on my root partition to install KDE atm
07:52:22 <PoppaVic> it's not worth the effort
07:52:38 <tathi> what's not worth the effort?
07:52:51 <PoppaVic> Konq
07:53:05 <PoppaVic> ..and I never bothered with firefox
07:53:19 <PoppaVic> ..well, I *tried* to build it.
07:54:10 <PoppaVic> iirc, there once was a Forth browser - and it died, as it wasn't even as useful as Lynx
07:54:31 <PoppaVic> As-Is: I'd not waste my time on them
07:54:32 <tathi> typing 'emerge konqueror' isn't that hard :P
07:54:50 <PoppaVic> Nor is "Screw them all" - so what?
07:55:24 <tathi> I mean, that's all the effort it takes (on my part) to install konq
07:55:31 <PoppaVic> ahh
07:55:41 <PoppaVic> Well, that's nice - for you.
07:55:55 <PoppaVic> Not for the rest of the world, of course.
07:56:09 <arke> ....
07:56:15 <tathi> it should be equally easy on any sensible distro
07:56:25 <arke> Bad mood today, pete?
07:56:27 <PoppaVic> I have to wonder what "emerge" does. - how and why.
07:56:42 <PoppaVic> arke: no, tired of trying to reconcile the universe
07:57:39 <PoppaVic> I'd toelrate it more if it was an emotional issue - but it ain't.
07:58:06 <tathi> emerge is the package manager for gentoo.
07:58:32 <tathi> as apt is for debian, rpm for red hat, fink (?) for OS X, etc.
07:58:36 <PoppaVic> I dunno' how often we discover the twit's in ##C don't OWN or BUY a book, or can't understand a struct or "function"
07:58:50 <PoppaVic> tathi: thanks - it's another packager, then.
08:00:19 <PoppaVic> so, it's an executable (or script), with args - using a file to generate 1 or more files - or just executed.
08:01:38 <PoppaVic> See? this is why I get so peeved.. There is C and ASM - and there sits forth... and they STILL all deal with the same bootstrap/interface.
08:02:45 <PoppaVic> Somewhere, someone posts a program and arg; somehow, someone executes SOMETHING. And never the twain meet.
08:04:49 <PoppaVic> I think the closest I ever came to "hmm, cute" was Openbios. Everything else is either script, C-based, or "Fuck the world - I write asm and won't share!".
08:05:56 <PoppaVic> Even trying to ascertain mode/level in ANS-forth (I mean for C or asm/os) is a chore.
08:06:04 <tathi> lol
08:06:08 <snowrichard> I bought a sparc for 10.00 once.  The forth in the boot rom was cute. 
08:06:12 <arke> This is why I stick with C++ or C# these days
08:06:16 <PoppaVic> tathi: I KNEW you'd chuckle! ;-)
08:06:30 <tathi> PoppaVic: you're so ridiculous about this stuff
08:06:35 <arke> although I would love a colorforth based browser
08:06:39 <PoppaVic> tathi: yeah, I know
08:07:35 <PoppaVic> tathi: I keep thinking "we can DO this..." - and then it all comes apart and everyone rolls off downhill in different ways
08:08:59 <tathi> well, you're trying to do too much at once, and trying to design for problems that you don't even know if you have
08:09:06 <tathi> that's just not how successful open source software works
08:09:08 <PoppaVic> anyway, good luck arke: I think you will need it - It's like mandating 1 lib and 1 tool.
08:09:13 <snowrichard> at least you don't have to toggle your binary in with front panel switches anymore ;)
08:09:57 <PoppaVic> tathi: no: worse - I keep thinking Forths are just super-C, meaning we can isolate differences and still use the same 'words'.
08:11:10 <PoppaVic> If *anything* can coordinate abi, api and objects/libs/modules/plugins - Forth can. The rest are too spastic.
08:11:44 <PoppaVic> anyway... I'll go back to my code - stay well, folks
08:16:12 <snowrichard> my niece was supposed to be here this morning after work I think she forgot.  She got off at 7:00 and its 10:15
08:17:43 <PoppaVic> There is this new invention: we call it a "telephone"
08:20:32 <snowrichard> I just called her cell she said she has trees down at her house
08:20:46 <snowrichard> from the storm last night
08:22:55 <PoppaVic> well, then she is handling duties at home.
08:23:53 <PoppaVic> I sorta' think a tree down, or thru the house, or on the car MIGHT be a higher priority. Although - yes - she should have called.
08:24:21 <PoppaVic> "kids nowadays"
08:25:28 <snowrichard> storm wasn't that bad here
08:25:46 <PoppaVic> "here" is (again) subjective
08:26:03 <snowrichard> in my neighborhood I don't see any trees down
08:26:59 <PoppaVic> I've been places the NWS decides "did not have a tornado - just severe winds" - and had houses/barns THROWN - or propane-tanks ripped up and whipped
08:27:49 <snowrichard> I was in a mobile home one time when trailer behind us was destroyed, ours survived
08:27:57 <PoppaVic> snowrichard: just stop, ok? Weather issues can affect a place 10' away - if anything, decry she didn't call, ok?
08:28:04 <PoppaVic> right
08:29:44 <PoppaVic> It's _POLITE_ to be informed - but shit, we already see on the news "you all have to take care of yourselves" - (w/o, mind you, a taxbreak) - after BigBrother has told us for years to Trust-Me.
08:30:24 <PoppaVic> I await - with an evil laugh - the new hurricane and flood season
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08:31:59 <PoppaVic> yeah
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10:32:27 <snowrichard> hi
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11:26:34 <snowrichard> hi
11:26:42 <virl> morning
11:26:47 <Amanita_Virosa> mornin.
11:26:59 <snowrichard> 13:26 central
11:28:03 <Amanita_Virosa> well, okay, you caught me
11:28:05 <Amanita_Virosa> it's afternoon here
11:28:14 <snowrichard> I'm in Marshall
11:29:16 <snowrichard> but my hostname says longview
11:29:25 <virl> and here it's 20:30
11:29:48 <snowrichard> UK? 
11:30:24 <snowrichard> never mind
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11:58:17 <virl> snowrichard, austria
11:59:00 <snowrichard> ok
11:59:15 <snowrichard> geography isn't my strong point
12:14:46 <virl> that's in europe
12:15:01 <virl> not australia, no kangaroos
12:21:15 <virl> that's an austrian side stereotype of americans ;-)
12:21:40 <tathi> what, that we're bad at geography?
12:23:43 <virl> yes, a common stereotype here, for example is that they mistake austria with australia ;-)
12:25:19 <tathi> yah.  there are a surprising number of americans who seem to actually be proud of their ignorance.  very odd mindset.
12:25:24 <tathi> :(
12:27:08 <virl> and iirc I heard that in one american lexicon austria is defined as a country where people live on mountains and communicate through yodeling
12:27:44 <virl> perhaps french are defined as frog-eaters, lol
12:30:37 <tathi> austria does have some pretty good-sized mountains though, doesn't it?
12:31:37 <tathi> a range running pretty much from one end to the other iirc
12:31:54 <virl> well, most of the alps are lying in our area
12:32:22 <tathi> ok, that's what I thought
12:32:57 <tathi> though my geography isn't what it should be either...
12:33:26 <snowrichard> I do basically remember where the places I went in the Navy are on the map
12:34:18 <snowrichard> especially a little box in the middle of nowhere called gonzo station
12:35:58 <snowrichard> I can't convince this cat to stay out of my lap
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12:51:41 <Quartus> snowrichard, unfortunately PoppaVic isn't here to advise you on how to do that properly. :)
12:52:36 <snowrichard> I think Poppa was angry earlier.  I don't think its anything I said ;) 
12:54:03 <snowrichard> seems he's trying to do an object-oriented forth in C. Would that be easier in C++? 
12:56:05 <virl> well... it'S Pop
12:56:39 <Quartus> snowrichard, easier, harder, consider the source. :)
12:57:09 <virl> but perhaps that C is portabler than C++
12:59:24 <virl> or he want's a different oop system, who knows
12:59:41 <tathi> he *was* even more cantankerous than usual today
12:59:51 <Quartus> The odds of him producing anything resembling a working system are between epsilon and zero.
13:00:48 <virl> I can't really imagine that he ever wrote software, which is used by other people
13:02:06 <snowrichard> I have.  But it was a big database app.  But I wasted the time writing the manual.  Show and tell worked better. 
13:04:29 <snowrichard> also they didn't want to do the data entry -- we ended up the year in a big push to input summaries of the hours instead of using the timesheets I had expected them to use
13:23:34 <snowrichard> got call from a college asking if I wanted to take a criminal justice degree
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18:28:41 <jdrake> Computers sometimes even fail on linux :p
18:35:28 <virl> hmm=
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18:53:43 <jdrake> Does this look like a good meter? http://cgi.ebay.ca/3-1-2-LCD-Inductor-Capacitor-Meter-2nF-200uF-2mH-20H_W0QQitemZ7618528199QQcategoryZ66991QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
19:37:29 <JasonWoof> someone should smac the ebay developers upside the head with a 10 foot url
19:38:34 <virl> we know why we hate them 
19:38:37 <virl> they hurt
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19:39:59 <Raystm2> hi jdrake: it does look like a good meter.
19:40:07 <jdrake> Good
19:40:54 <jdrake> Can anyone recommend a good bunch of ICs that have various gates on them? (so it saves me space when I try to build stuff)  I am not good at finding these things yet.
19:42:38 <Raystm2> I've never purchased any outside of school 20+ years ago, I'm sorry.
19:43:50 <jdrake> How do I choose which tech to go for? (TTL, CMOS, etc)
19:45:15 <Raystm2> Wait, I thought you were going with all transistors and passives?
19:45:20 <Raystm2> :)
19:45:54 <jdrake> If I use some chips it would be easier on my breadboard
19:46:03 <jdrake> chips would just condense what I would make anyways
19:46:12 <jdrake> The transistors can get easily unwieldly
19:51:18 <jdrake> This might help: http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folders/print/sn74ls51.html
19:53:45 <Raystm2> :)
19:54:38 <jdrake> Ti seems to have stuff, I can use these product numbers to get stuff at the local dealer
19:55:10 <jdrake> But there is still the issue of logic voltage. I am thinking that 5V should be a decent one as it seems common.
20:00:18 <Raystm2> definately.
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22:21:36 <snowrichard> hello
22:25:44 <arke> hi
22:26:10 <snowrichard> how are you?
22:26:47 <snowrichard> i'm jammin with AC/DC on my shoutcast stream
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23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/06.06.07