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15:52:19 <ttuttle> Quartus: Hi!
16:26:18 <Quartus> Hi ttuttle!
16:28:02 * ttuttle just finished his last final exam.  Still have that stupid humongous Java ::puke:: project to finish.
16:28:21 <Quartus> Necessary evils, eh?
16:28:28 <ttuttle> ARGH Java must DIE!
16:28:51 <Quartus> I'm no fan of it, for sure.
16:29:10 <ttuttle> It's so SLOW and so disgustingly OOP.
16:29:32 <Quartus> Yes.
16:29:34 <ttuttle> I'm SO tired of OOP.
16:29:38 <ttuttle> I WANT GLOBAL VARIABLES!
16:30:03 <ttuttle> I don't WANT to have to set up relationships between objects!  I want things to be transparent and free to interact, not locked up in artificial containers!
16:30:30 <Quartus> Yes, I prefer to decide when I want to encapsulate.
16:31:01 <ttuttle> One of my friends just picked up a new dual-core Dell laptop for 34% off.
16:31:19 <Quartus> How is it at being thrown on the floor? :)
16:31:31 <ttuttle> He hasn't tried it yet.
16:31:41 <ttuttle> I'll try running SmashBench on it tomorrow. ;-)
16:31:54 <Quartus> The trademarked Tuttle Test.
16:32:10 <ttuttle> lol
16:32:15 <ttuttle> I didn't do it!
16:32:49 <Quartus> Still.
16:32:57 * ttuttle and a friend are writing a dialect of Lisp.  It's quite fun.
16:33:08 * ttuttle has almost gotten to the point of swapping the [ ] keys and the ( ) keys.
16:33:12 <ttuttle> (LISP machines do that.)
16:33:21 <Quartus> Oh?
16:33:35 <ttuttle> Yeah.
16:33:48 <ttuttle> They have parentheses on the square bracket keys.  (Or at least one I saw at MIT did.)
16:34:49 <Quartus> I didn't know that.
16:34:56 <ttuttle> http://www.abstractscience.freeserve.co.uk/symbolics/photos/IO/index.html
16:36:08 <Quartus> Oh. [ ] and { }.
16:36:48 <ttuttle> Yeah, the ( ) replace [ ], the [ ] replace the { }, and the { } go on some other keys.
16:37:34 <Quartus> In that pic, ( and ) appear to live on 9 and 0 as you'd expect, and [ ] are shifted { and }, which is the reverse of the model M I'm using here.
16:38:00 <ttuttle> Quartus: Well I guess there are two sets of ( ).
16:38:06 <ttuttle> Mmmm, Model M's are cool.
16:38:12 <Quartus> You sure those aren't { and }?
16:38:46 <ttuttle> Yes.  Look at the "Old Keyboard" link too.
16:38:54 <ttuttle> (The old keyboard is the one I saw, IIRC.)
16:39:26 <Quartus> That one's a bit clearer.
16:39:52 <ttuttle> Yeah.
16:42:30 <ttuttle> Lisp machines are cool.
16:42:54 <ttuttle> I want to write something like colorFORTH--a bootable x86 forth--but less weird.  (I can't stand the keyboard layout, or most anything, in colorFORTH.)
16:43:08 <Quartus> Won't be hard to be less weird. 
16:43:25 <ttuttle> lol
16:45:27 <ttuttle> I wish my BIOS was written in Forth, like Open Firmware.
16:46:16 <Quartus> Why is that?
16:46:34 <ttuttle> It's cool ;-)
16:47:07 <ttuttle> Instead of an instant-on CD player feature (useless), I could have an instant-on RPN calculator (useful!).
16:48:17 <Quartus> Buy an RPN calculator. :)
16:48:20 <ttuttle> How do most forths deal with floating point/integer conversion?  Like how do you enter floating point numbers?  Is the stack shared?
16:48:31 <ttuttle> I did (an HP-49g+).  It broke.  (Small wonder.)
16:48:34 <Quartus> Separate floating-point stack is the method most usually found.
16:48:41 <Quartus> Conversion has to be done explicitly.
16:48:57 <ttuttle> The fancy leather case didn't protect it nearly as well as the hard shell on the TI-89 I still have.
16:48:59 <Quartus> Numbers are recognized as floats if they contain an 'e'.
16:49:13 <ttuttle> Ah.
16:49:47 <Quartus> It's slightly more subtle than that, but not much. The Standard doc shows the pattern recognizer.
16:54:16 <Quartus> I need a scroll saw. Hand tools and polypropelene do not mix.
16:54:28 <ttuttle> Hehehe.
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16:55:26 <Quartus> I just spent an hour cutting a ring from a tube.
17:01:57 * ttuttle wants a working laptop.
17:03:30 <Quartus> Further decay in the one you've got?
17:04:48 <ttuttle> Yes.
17:05:09 <ttuttle> The hinge is falling apart progressively from the side that broke to the other side.
17:06:10 <ttuttle> I still don't know which is better, paying to get this one fixed (I can't find the parts anywhere online, so I can't do it myself) or just getting a new one now.  (I'm getting a new one when I go to college, which is basically in a year.)
17:06:55 <ttuttle> I'm pretty sure I can't just hack something together--the joint where the hinge attaches takes far too much strain.
17:07:30 <ttuttle> (I might try though.)
17:07:38 <ttuttle> Even if I don't get the hinge fixed, I can still run it as a server.
17:11:02 <ttuttle> Given that this one cost $1715, is (almost exactly) 2 years old, the repairs will cost around $400, and the new one will probably be at or a little under $2000, what do you think is the best choice?
17:11:57 <Quartus> Depends on your budget.
17:12:08 <ttuttle> I'm definitely spending the money, it's a question of now or later.
17:12:14 <ttuttle> I have it now, if that's what you're asking.
17:12:25 <Quartus> If you wait, you get a faster machine for the same money.
17:12:29 <ttuttle> Yeah.
17:12:36 <ttuttle> And I get a year more of use out of it
17:13:47 <ttuttle> But if I get this one fixed, I'll have two computers, so I can take the older one with me to classes 'n' stuff in college, and leave the newer one in my dorm room, so it will take less abuse and last longer.
17:14:03 <Quartus> What if Nerdlinger uses it to pull a prank on the Dean?
17:14:15 <ttuttle> lol
17:14:37 <ttuttle> Use it to do real-time voice changing during a speech :-b
17:14:50 <ttuttle> I oughta try that.
17:14:51 <Quartus> It might become the core component of a Bra Bomb.
17:14:58 <ttuttle> Nah.
17:18:27 <ttuttle> The *Core* component?  You're not buying into Intel marketing, are you?
17:18:46 <ttuttle> ;-)
17:20:02 <Quartus> Heh. Not me.
17:20:05 <ttuttle> lol
17:21:11 <ttuttle> Intel is shooting itself in the foot.  They have Core Duo, which is dual-core (everyone calls it "Duo Core"), and then the next gen (coming in August) is called Core 2 Duo.  So does Core Duo = Core 2 Solo, and does Core 2 Duo = Core Quattro?  Are brand names closed under multiplication?
17:23:35 <Quartus> Wrong guy to ask.
17:23:38 <ttuttle> lol
17:27:11 <nanstm> Hey Quartus!
17:27:18 <nanstm> oops sex change...
17:27:25 --- nick: nanstm -> Raystm2
17:27:37 <Raystm2> Hey Quartus!
17:29:36 <ttuttle> lol
17:29:38 <ttuttle> Raystm2: hey
17:29:50 <Raystm2> ttuttle :) how are you today?
17:30:18 <ttuttle> Raystm2: Good, still annoyed about my broken laptop.
17:30:36 <Raystm2> Yikes! What happened?
17:30:55 <ttuttle> Raystm2: /me feels bad for Quartus, who will have to hear this again.
17:31:11 <ttuttle> Raystm2: A 5-year-old pushed it off a bed, and broke the screen hinge.  The whole hinge is slowly disintegrating.
17:31:32 <Raystm2> oh darn, i'm sorry to here that. 
17:31:38 <ttuttle> Raystm2: Yeah.
17:31:52 <Raystm2> Well, they are only 5 for so long. 
17:32:08 <ttuttle> Raystm2: So I was planning to buy a new one in about a year, when I go to college.  But the question now is, do I get this one fixed (~$400) or just buy the new one now.
17:32:21 <Raystm2> New one. :)
17:32:25 <ttuttle> He's the kid of a family friend, so I can't yell at him.
17:32:50 <ttuttle> Raystm2: That's what I am thinking (Dell has a nice sale now!) but my dad keeps saying "Wait a year, you'll get a better computer." and that I should make this one last as long as possible.  Meh.
17:33:06 <Raystm2> That's a very good point.
17:33:52 <ttuttle> Raystm2: It is.  But I see it this way: the current Centrino platform (Yonah) has been out for a few months, the prices have dropped, and the drivers are stable.  The stuff coming out next year--802.11n, hybrid hard drives, EFI--are going to take a LONG time to stabilize.
17:34:22 <Raystm2> another excellent point.
17:34:36 <ttuttle> Raystm2: So who wins? ;-)
17:35:27 <ttuttle> Raystm2: I might also wait a couple months until Intel releases new CPU's (on the same platform), and get one of those.  But they'll be more expensive.
17:35:54 <Raystm2> hmm... 
17:37:04 <ttuttle> Raystm2: I can't help but wonder if this is all just my geek side saying "YAY!!1!!11!!eleventyone  Dual core!"
17:37:16 <Raystm2> Wait a couple months for the new chip. Then when you are ready to go to school, sell this  newer one for the down on an even newer one.
17:37:25 <Raystm2> hehe
17:37:31 <ttuttle> Raystm2: Nah, I don't do leases.
17:37:38 <Raystm2> not lease.
17:37:44 <ttuttle> Raystm2: Financing?
17:37:47 <Raystm2> no.
17:37:54 <ttuttle> Raystm2: down = down payment, right?
17:38:13 <Raystm2> well, maybe bad turn of phrase.
17:38:50 <Raystm2> What I mean is, Sell the one from a couple months from now, add a few bucks and you can afford the most hottest machine just before you go to school.
17:38:56 <ttuttle> Raystm2: Ah.
17:38:59 <ttuttle> Raystm2: Good point.
17:39:04 <ttuttle> Raystm2: What is the used laptop market like, anyway?
17:39:24 * Raystm2 has never owned one, but wishes he did.
17:39:28 <ttuttle> Raystm2: (Depending on how things work out, it might be better for me to simply upgrade components, especially if the newer hardware isn't well supported.)
17:39:35 <ttuttle> Raystm2: Wanna buy a broken one?
17:39:39 <Raystm2> lol
17:40:30 <Raystm2> I don't think you will ever be satisfied with the old one after it is fixed.
17:41:29 <ttuttle> Raystm2: I feel bad just deciding it's not worth the money.  It's not a bad machine.  It's not the latest generation, but it's still pretty fast, and it's been loyal.
17:41:59 <ttuttle> Raystm2: I'll probably keep it as a server.
17:42:00 * Raystm2 has fights back a tear. 
17:42:09 <Raystm2> Well then, there ya go.
17:42:32 <ttuttle> Raystm2: /me can't just abandon a computer.  I'm too emotionally attached.  :-b
17:42:41 <Raystm2> I know. :)
17:42:53 <Raystm2> It's your baby,
17:43:10 <Raystm2> You put all of your favorite software on it...
17:43:15 <Raystm2> You spend time with it...
17:43:20 <ttuttle> Raystm2: Ye gods, you can read my mind.  I avoid phrasing it that way, for fear of embarrassment, but that's *exactly* what it's like.
17:44:04 <Raystm2> Whats the term... anthropormorphize???
17:44:25 <Raystm2> no that can't be spelt correctly.
17:45:21 <ttuttle> anthropomorphize
17:45:27 <ttuttle> you had an extra r.
17:45:42 <Raystm2> ya i  see that now.
17:46:40 <ttuttle> Raystm2: So what kind of box do you have, anyway?
17:47:25 <Raystm2> I have several. This one i'm using now is a HP/Compaq sr1010nx 2.8 gig intel.
17:47:41 <ttuttle> Nice.
17:47:59 <Raystm2> I bought it off the shelf 2 years ago to test a couple assumptions. 
17:48:11 <ttuttle> Have you ever noticed that I'm the only person who ever uses nicks before messages in #forth?  It's a fairly unique channel in that regard.
17:48:15 <Raystm2> 1) if some one could use colorforth off the shelf
17:48:35 <ttuttle> Raystm2: Oh, is there an ISO image of that?  I can test it on VMware for you!
17:48:42 <Raystm2> well, we use nicks when there is more then one conversation going on.
17:48:44 <ttuttle> Raystm2: And do you know how to change it to QWERTY? :-b
17:49:53 <Raystm2> There are several great images at Tim Neitz archive http://www.dnd.utwente.nl/~tim/colorforth/ 
17:50:09 <Quartus> Hey Raystm2.
17:50:09 <Raystm2> I have some personal ones that i'll put up on colorforth.info fairly soon.
17:50:23 <Raystm2> qwerty is not a hard problem for colorforth.
17:50:34 <Raystm2> Quartus! Hi. Question?
17:50:57 <ttuttle> Raystm2: But how?
17:51:22 <ttuttle> Raystm2: Which directory on that site has the images?
17:52:09 <Raystm2> Several of us ( crc, kc5tja, tathi, JasonWoof, myself, maybe others ) have expressed a desire to code the Fowser ( forth web browser ). Is this something you think you could be interested in helping with in any little way?
17:52:25 <Raystm2> ttuttle: depends on what you want. 
17:52:29 <Quartus> What's up, Raystm2?
17:52:48 <Quartus> Oh, there's the question.
17:52:57 <ttuttle> Raystm2: Um, I would be interested in helping, but I don't think I have enough experience to develop large-scale applications in Forth.  Is this going to be text- or GUI-based?
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17:53:04 <Quartus> Gosh, maybe. What's the big plan?
17:53:43 <Raystm2> Quartus: we are in the planning stages. We only formed a mild commitment a couple days ago.
17:54:02 <Quartus> Not yet fighting about what Forth to use? :)
17:54:30 <Raystm2> Quartus and ttuttle: we have already decided to use gforth and ANS.
17:54:46 <ttuttle> Raystm2: Ok.
17:54:49 <Quartus> Strictly Standard?
17:54:57 <Quartus> So text-based. A Lynx clone?
17:55:01 <Raystm2> As ANS as possible.
17:55:21 <Raystm2> Quartus: it has been suggested that we start with a Lynx-a-like.
17:55:26 <ttuttle> Raystm2: This, I might be able to help with.
17:55:59 <Raystm2> excellent. 
17:56:16 * Raystm2 wonders should we dedicate a freenode chat room for the project.
17:56:27 <Quartus> Keep it here, it's not like there's much other traffic.
17:56:33 <Raystm2> very well.
17:56:43 <Raystm2> tho much of the conversation is in c4th-ot.
17:56:59 <Quartus> I mean, once a day PoppaVic comes on and says he doesn't understand the difference between vocs and semantic, but that's about it.
17:57:06 <Raystm2> hahahaha
17:57:14 <Quartus> Well, if it's a Standard Forth project, seems it'd be more at home here than in c4th.
17:57:27 <Raystm2> I was just wondering about kc5tja who seems to hate this chat room.
17:57:36 <Raystm2> that's tru.
17:57:40 <Raystm2> true even.
17:57:40 <Quartus> I have forgotten why he hates it.
17:57:49 <Raystm2> I'm sure it's not you.
17:57:50 <Raystm2> :)
17:57:51 <ttuttle> Raystm2: So can you point me to a good ISO image for colorFORTH?
17:57:57 <Quartus> The last I saw kc5tja he was raving like a madman about something I've also forgotten.
17:58:17 <Quartus> Some notion of a conspiracy, I think.
17:58:17 <ttuttle> Quartus: That seems to be an oddly common trait in the Forth community.  (coughpoppaviccough)
17:58:21 <ttuttle> Quartus: lol
17:58:23 <Raystm2> ttuttle: tell me about your machine.
17:58:34 <ttuttle> Raystm2: The one I want to run cF on?
17:58:34 <Raystm2> lol.
17:58:40 <Raystm2> yes, please.
17:58:45 <ttuttle> Raystm2: It's made by VMware.
17:59:08 <Raystm2> arke knows more about VMware then I do, I believe.
17:59:11 <ttuttle> Raystm2: It emulates either an IDE or SCSI hard drive or CD-ROM, and can emulate floppies as well.
17:59:23 <ttuttle> Raystm2: Basically any image that's reasonably general-purpose will work.
17:59:46 <Raystm2> cool, tho I don't think anybody has ever run cF on VMware. But I could be wrong.
17:59:58 <ttuttle> Raystm2: Sooooo... which one should I use?
18:00:09 <Quartus> Logs to the rescue; he was ranting about lilo reporting discussions about illegal activity.
18:00:17 <ttuttle> Quartus: Oh.
18:00:28 <Raystm2> Quartus: hmm. OH yeah I remember now.
18:00:31 <Quartus> Actually ranting, it was a little scary.
18:00:33 <ttuttle> Quartus: Well, lilo certainly has a right to do that.  It would be bad if crackers and script kiddies ruined freenode.
18:00:37 <ttuttle> Quartus: paste paste paste!
18:00:41 <Quartus> I backed away and have not ventured back.
18:00:50 <Raystm2> I see. 
18:01:32 <Raystm2> I believe that kc5tja was more worried about lilo giving into the Patriot Act, rather then being for free speach.
18:01:49 <Raystm2> I don't have the log in front of me, though.
18:01:54 <ttuttle> Raystm2: Oh.  That could be a problem, I guess.
18:02:14 <Raystm2> BUT, that wasn't the reason he quit #forth.
18:02:28 <Quartus> Wasn't it something to do with # and ##?  Lilo again.  
18:02:34 <Raystm2> It was a personal conflict with someone, i'm sure.
18:03:21 <Raystm2> Quartus: i believe he quit #forth well before the # and ## thingy.
18:03:34 <Raystm2> That was only a couple mo's ago.
18:03:54 <Raystm2> Sam's been gone from #forth for more then a year, I believe.
18:03:58 <Quartus> Oh.  Come to think of it I've never seen him here.  I may be thinking back about 5 years to openprojects.org.
18:04:50 <ttuttle> Raystm2: Can COLOR.COM be used as a floppy image?
18:05:11 <Raystm2> ttuttle: color.com is a DOS program.
18:05:31 <Raystm2> you can make a colorforth floppy from it tho.
18:06:33 <ttuttle> Raystm2: I'm running Linux, and I don't have a DOS machine handy.
18:06:36 <Raystm2> if you start your windows machine in DOS mode and then start the color.com, then type 'save' with a floppy in the machine ( even if the display is not showing anything ) then reboot, you may find that you either have a working colorforth or you don't. 
18:06:56 <ttuttle> Raystm2: (Nor a windows machine ;-)
18:07:46 <Raystm2> Ok, You need Mark Slickers xColorForth for *nix. BUT he has lost much of his work and I've not been able to find a copy online.
18:08:00 <Quartus> Nothing at the wayback machine?
18:08:03 <Raystm2> I have been meaning to ask the mailinglist for a copy.
18:08:20 <Raystm2> The Wayback Machine! Great point.
18:08:32 * Raystm2 notes this for later consumption.
18:09:01 <Raystm2> I just have to find a copy for the dot-info site.
18:09:18 <Raystm2> I'm betting arke has one.
18:09:48 <Raystm2> and Tim ( rj-cf) Neitz prob'ly does too, though it's not included in the archive.
18:15:45 <ttuttle> Raystm2: Do you know how to type "save" into colorforth without graphics?
18:16:35 <Raystm2> save. Chuck was smart here and he over loaded the word that saves in colorforth with another word that uses the actual s a v e keys.
18:16:49 <ttuttle> Raystm2: So S A V E enter?
18:17:00 <Raystm2> spacebar not enter.
18:17:04 <ttuttle> Raystm2: k
18:17:20 <Quartus> Plus you have to type it with your keyboard facing the floor, and with your left eye shut.
18:17:27 <ttuttle> Bah, I can't get a virtual floppy in dosbox.
18:17:28 <ttuttle> Quartus: :-b
18:18:15 <Raystm2> :) you should also be balding, and live in the mountains, but that goes with out saying so I won't say it.
18:18:39 <ttuttle> Raystm2: ;-)
18:19:08 <Raystm2> At least you can take your foot off the floor now and have them both on the bed during filming, after all, we are not prudes.
18:19:25 <ttuttle> Raystm2: ?
18:19:39 <Raystm2> I went a liiiiiitttttllleee toooo far with that one.
18:19:53 <ttuttle> Raystm2: Yeah.  Clearly.
18:20:01 <ttuttle> Raystm2: Let us never speak of it again.
18:20:16 <ttuttle> Raystm2: (We wouldn't want LILO to have to call the Secret Service, now would we? ;-b)
18:20:39 <Raystm2> in the olden days, ( 30's ??? ) you couldn't film a love scene with a man and a woman in bed with out both of them having atleast one foot on the floor.
18:21:00 <ttuttle> Raystm2: lol
18:22:11 <Raystm2> Now adays you can't film a love scene between a man and a woman with out silicon titties.
18:22:23 <Quartus> Sometimes they're on the woman.
18:22:41 <Raystm2> hahahaha.
18:24:51 <ttuttle> Raystm2: dosbox hangs when I run color.com; dosemu crashes.
18:25:08 <Quartus> Not surprising. It's not written to run under emulation, is it?
18:25:30 <Raystm2> During the conversation ( that named the browser Fowser, and the applets Fapplets) It was suggested that a browser would be a forth community binding project.
18:26:07 <Quartus> Binding?
18:26:07 <Raystm2> ttuttle: Quartus is correct. Colorforth likes to be at 0 in mem.
18:26:12 <Quartus> Like when you eat too much cheese?
18:26:16 <Raystm2> Binding is not the right word.
18:26:26 <Raystm2> well, maybe it is now.
18:27:39 <Raystm2> Forth community ________ project. where all values of blank are positive and mean getting together and being glad that such a thing exists.
18:27:48 <Quartus> Ah I see.
18:28:26 <Quartus> Well it seems a straightforward sort of thing, at least once you've figured out how to get network data in and out of the app.
18:28:37 <Quartus> Which is necessarily non-Standard.
18:28:51 <Raystm2> is it?
18:29:06 <Raystm2> I bow to your greater experience.
18:29:07 <Quartus> Sure, there's no Standard wordset for reading or writing to the network.
18:29:11 <Raystm2> AH.
18:29:14 <Raystm2> okay.
18:29:33 <Raystm2> We need to get this together before the next standars meeting.
18:29:37 <Raystm2> standards even.
18:29:41 <Quartus> So that part needs to be written and encapsulated, so it can be ported.
18:29:52 <Raystm2> I see.
18:30:18 <Quartus> So long as that's abstracted, and the rest of the app uses that abstraction rather than direct calls, you
18:30:23 <Quartus> you'll have reasonable portability.
18:30:36 <Raystm2> excellent.
18:30:50 <Quartus> Well, sure, but it's not a trivial thing.
18:31:11 <jdrake> My bid is successful, I shall soon have a nice power supply.
18:31:28 <Raystm2> jdrake? You won the bid?
18:31:43 <Quartus> You're talking about using (presumably) gforth under (I assume) Windows, Linux (others?) and having the network access work identically for the purposes of the app.
18:31:44 <jdrake> yes
18:31:45 <Raystm2> Well done.
18:32:03 <Raystm2> Quartus: I believe you are correct, sir.
18:32:05 <jdrake> Only one person bid, and they didn't drive it up much. 
18:32:16 <Raystm2> Nicely done jdrake!
18:32:21 <jdrake> Now I am just hunting for a decent multimeter.
18:32:28 <Raystm2> :)
18:32:31 <jdrake> But I doubt I am going to find exactly what I am after.
18:32:43 <Raystm2> what ( if you don't mind the question ) was the winning price?
18:32:50 <jdrake> I want something that can tell me inductance and capacitance.
18:32:55 <jdrake> $27 or so
18:32:58 <Raystm2> WOW!
18:33:04 <Raystm2> cool.
18:33:10 <jdrake> In the morning I put my max upto $35 just in case
18:33:18 <Raystm2> :)
18:34:05 <ttuttle> Raystm2: CONGRATS!
18:34:14 <ttuttle> Raystm2: YOU SEGFAULTED VMWARE!
18:35:11 <jdrake> This one auction I see is for an HP/AGILENT8840A (Or an HP 3478A Or an HP 38840A) - it actually says three different model numbers.
18:37:59 <ttuttle> Raystm2: Seriously.
18:38:08 <ttuttle> Raystm2: It gives an error every time I start colorFORTH.
18:42:18 <Raystm2> You don't get to run colorforth in the vmware then :(
18:42:43 <ttuttle> Raystm2: It's a beta, maybe they'll fix it if I file a bug report.
18:42:54 <Raystm2> ttuttle: I believe arke has had colorforth running in vmware, but I could be mistaken.
18:43:01 <Raystm2> cool.
18:44:14 <ttuttle> Raystm2: I'm trying qemu.
18:45:45 <ttuttle> Raystm2: QEMU does it!
18:45:58 <ttuttle> Raystm2: So, SAVE will create a bootable disk?
18:46:49 <Raystm2> It works in QEMU?
18:46:56 <Raystm2> Do you see a display?
18:47:16 <ttuttle> Raystm2: Yes.
18:47:25 <Raystm2> Yes, ttuttle, if the thing is working properly then save should write to the disk.
18:47:28 <ttuttle> Raystm2: I ran SAVE.  Is it supposed to respond with a message?
18:47:39 <Raystm2> no. well, what message?
18:48:13 <Raystm2> did the floppy light come on then go out after it sounded like it wrote to disk?
18:48:46 <ttuttle> Raystm2: No floppy light.  It's virtual, remember?
18:48:53 <Raystm2> OH okay.
18:49:01 <Raystm2> can you boot from a virtual disk?
18:49:05 <ttuttle> Raystm2: Yes.
18:49:08 <Raystm2> cool. 
18:49:21 <Raystm2> have you tried booting from the virtual disk yet?
18:49:35 <ttuttle> Raystm2:Yes.
18:49:35 <Raystm2> is this the machine you are chatting on?
18:49:38 <ttuttle> Raystm2: Yes.
18:49:41 <Raystm2> oh. 
18:49:43 <Raystm2> cool
18:49:43 <ttuttle> Raystm2: It's running qemu.
18:49:52 <ttuttle> Raystm2: It actually appears to hang when I do save.
18:49:52 <Raystm2> no way!! excellent.
18:50:00 <Raystm2> well, :(
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18:52:58 <ttuttle> Raystm2: So did you ever make a native ColorForth floppy?
18:54:17 <ttuttle> Raystm2: And how do boot.asm, gen.asm, and color.asm combine? 
18:54:22 <Raystm2> I have many.
18:54:36 <ttuttle> Can I get one?  The FreeDos one I'm using is a PITA.
18:55:15 <Raystm2> during the make process, color.asm includes boot.asm and then gen.asm when appropriate.
18:55:33 <ttuttle> Raystm2: I see.  Do you use nasm?
18:55:43 <Raystm2> yes, and fasm and masm.
18:55:47 <Raystm2> now.. 
18:55:56 <Raystm2> the color.com was made with masm.
18:55:59 <Raystm2> BUT...
18:56:08 <Raystm2> Tim has a nasm version on his archive.
18:56:38 <ttuttle> Raystm2: nasm exploded with errors on COLOR.ASM.
18:56:51 <Raystm2> rigth color.asm is for MASM
18:56:55 <ttuttle> Raystm2: oh i get it
18:57:08 <ttuttle> Raystm2: So where do I find the nasm version?
18:58:04 <Raystm2> you could try the version at....
18:58:58 <Raystm2> my page in Tim's archive http://www.dnd.utwente.nl/~tim/colorforth/Raystm2/
18:59:34 <Raystm2> there is an html of the bytecode there, and a stylesheet to render it, and the image.
18:59:49 <ttuttle> Raystm2: But what about the .ASM ile?
18:59:53 <ttuttle> Raystm2: s/ile/file/;
18:59:55 <Raystm2> it's nasm. and it's slightly different to chucks.
19:00:01 <Raystm2> oh..
19:00:06 <ttuttle> Raystm2: I wanted to compile it.
19:00:11 <Raystm2> the asms for that image is....
19:00:12 <ttuttle> s/compile/assemble/;
19:01:02 <Raystm2> in the mtcf folder under mtcf-kernel.
19:01:27 <Raystm2> mtcf stands for multi-tasking colorforth, a project that Tim has been working on.
19:02:10 <Raystm2> This is different then Chucks. This was originated by Peter Appelmen, and uses Peter's smallFonts-Colorforth
19:02:16 <ttuttle> Raystm2: Do I use cmcolor.asm?
19:02:59 <Raystm2> yes
19:03:22 <ttuttle> Raystm2: It still whines about redefined symbols in boot.asm and gen.asm!
19:04:16 <Raystm2> hmm...
19:04:32 <ttuttle> whoops
19:04:35 <Raystm2> ttuttle: can I invite you to join #c4th and #c4th-ot and maybe get Tim to help you?
19:04:39 <ttuttle> didn't overwrite the old files
19:04:42 <Raystm2> hehe.
19:05:11 <ttuttle> Raystm2: So the output of nasm is a floppy image?
19:06:35 <ttuttle> Raystm2: Or do I have to do something to it first?
19:06:41 <Raystm2> It can be, if you put it on a floppy -- he said tongue in check. :)
19:06:46 <ttuttle> Raystm2: ok
19:07:03 <Raystm2> in cheek even. yikes.
19:07:14 <ttuttle> Raystm2: Qemu doesn't like it.
19:07:21 <ttuttle> Raystm2: Just hangs.
19:07:31 <ttuttle> Raystm2: VMware just pretends the virtual machine turned off.
19:07:47 <Raystm2> Stupid qemu. I sware, cF wants to be the only thing running and it wants to be at 0 mem.
19:08:36 * Raystm2 has a few machines that he runs colorforth native on.
19:09:08 <Raystm2> It doesn't play nicely with others.
19:09:27 <ttuttle> VMware Server unrecoverable error: (vcpu-0) NOT_IMPLEMENTED /build/mts/release/bora-23869/pompeii2005/bora/devices/floppy/floppy.c:3162 A log file is available in "/var/lib/vmware/machines/colorFORTH/vmware.log".  A core file is available in "/var/lib/vmware/machines/colorFORTH/core.609".  Please request support and include the contents of the log file and core file.   To collect files to submit to VMware support, run vm-support. We will respond on the b
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19:09:43 <ttuttle> Hahaha.  No bug report for you.  I have no support entitlement, therefore you have no beta test report entitlement.
19:10:43 <ttuttle> Sounds like their floppy driver is broken.  Do you do anything odd with the floppy?
19:10:44 <Amanita_Virosa> what the...
19:10:44 <Raystm2> Chuck has said, recently thru Jeff Fox, that a new colorforth'06 will soon be available and tackles some of these hardware issues.
19:10:57 <ttuttle> Raystm2: Nice!
19:11:09 <Raystm2> hi Amanita_Virosa
19:11:25 <ttuttle> Raystm2: Does it have native Unicode support and is it powered by Web 2.0? ;-)
19:11:32 <Raystm2> haha 
19:11:42 <Raystm2> umm i-dunno.
19:12:20 <Amanita_Virosa> hello
19:12:28 <Raystm2> If I hazzard a guess, I'd say no.
19:12:33 <ttuttle> Raystm2: lol
19:12:52 <ttuttle> Raystm2: Unicode might be a good feature for someone to implement in Forth if they were trying to write a modern one.
19:13:00 <ttuttle> Raystm2: And if they planned to use it for user-level applications.
19:13:01 <Raystm2> Quartus: hows that fowser comming? :)
19:13:18 <Raystm2> cool.
19:13:18 <Amanita_Virosa> unicode?  bah.
19:13:59 <ttuttle> Amanita_Virosa: It's okay, but it's responsible for the most annoying character set mismatches, because each "high-bit" character generates two or three characters of nonsense instead of one (at least with UTF-8).
19:14:14 <Amanita_Virosa> unicode isn't necessary for the 2 languages i speak and one that i study, and isn't supported for one of the languages i study.
19:14:45 <Amanita_Virosa> i've never had an actual use for it, besides being generally annoying and breaking a lot of perfectly functional programs
19:15:13 <ttuttle> Amanita_Virosa: It's great for reading Chinese and Japanese spam :-b
19:15:15 <Raystm2> I defer to your greater experience.
19:15:41 <Amanita_Virosa> ttuttle - exactly.
19:15:52 <Amanita_Virosa> oh there's one i don't get... it seems that my web-based email form is getting spammed
19:15:59 <Amanita_Virosa> mostly in oriental character sets
19:16:05 <Amanita_Virosa> i don't really know what they hope to accomplish
19:16:14 <Amanita_Virosa> it's read only by me, and i don't speak any of the various oriental languages
19:16:22 <Amanita_Virosa> other than knowing a few swear-words in chinese
19:16:29 <ttuttle> lol
19:17:07 <Raystm2> :)
19:17:43 <Amanita_Virosa> i dunno...  if unicode had a codepage for middle egyptian, i wouldnt be so dead-set against it
19:17:46 <Amanita_Virosa> but it doesn't
19:17:52 <Amanita_Virosa> so i mean, how useless is that?
19:18:25 <ttuttle> Amanita_Virosa: What brings you to work on Middle Egyptian?
19:18:49 <Amanita_Virosa> i just enjoy the language
19:19:10 <Amanita_Virosa> that, and i'm considering making an OS where the UI is entirely in middle egyptian
19:19:13 <ttuttle> Amanita_Virosa: Oh, ok.
19:19:17 <ttuttle> Amanita_Virosa: Cool.
19:19:45 <Raystm2> is it symbols or is it more like a traditional alphabet?
19:19:53 * Raystm2 googles
19:20:02 <Amanita_Virosa> a bit of both
19:20:09 <Amanita_Virosa> most people think it's pictographic
19:20:13 <Amanita_Virosa> and while it looks like it, it's actually not
19:20:27 <Amanita_Virosa> it works sorta like "word that sounds like word for this pictograph"
19:20:45 <Amanita_Virosa> or "word that sounds like the word of this pictograph followed by this pictograph, and is pertaining to this subject"
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