00:00:00 --- log: started forth/06.05.12 00:01:16 yes -- I think he mentioned the J-DAM 00:01:17 I find it funny. 00:01:17 people who uses lisp or forth, doesn't tell much about it. 00:01:17 says they pay $10,000 for a license copy of VxWorks that runs on the missile and blows itself up :) 00:03:26 I hope my computer doesn't blow itself up... 00:04:14 somehow after having worked in the military I don't find that figure shocking at all -- I used to handle Flight recorders that were valued at $10,000 apiece too. 00:06:33 I think I need a garbage collector and type system to retroforth, that I could do this thing what I want. 00:06:51 have you contributed any code to retro? 00:07:10 I tried it briefly 00:07:10 nope. I just started with this thing anyway. 00:07:55 I liked the native one. booted it under bochs 00:07:55 But if my toying pays off, I put it open source anyway. 00:08:03 It is almost as good as code contribution to retro. :) 00:08:09 (I think) 00:08:34 Yes. I find it fun too. 00:09:41 And forth trains me a lot. 00:09:48 an assembler would be nice though. I would find it hard to look up opcodes to put in memory directly like he does. 00:10:04 C++ is like a closed, black, very black box. 00:10:29 forth is like no box at all. 00:10:47 while most HL languages feels like a black box over even blackier box. 00:11:33 I like it very much because of that. 00:11:58 I kind of miss the old days -- an 8 bit microprocessor system like the 6502 one I had was simple enough for the average person to understand. 00:12:08 Basically, I know how I can do garbage collector and typing system in forth, but I find it impossible in C. 00:12:42 I've got some audio editing to do will catch you some other time. 00:12:56 ok, see you later. 00:20:52 I just have to listen until I hear a station break and go back and cut it out. 00:21:49 I taped from sirus and then recorded it with audacity. 00:24:31 Hmm. Type system for my purpose... I need that for garbage collection to regonize pointers. Mark&Sweep garbage collector needs to regonize the place of the pointer in binary. I think I use dynamic typing, I find static typing sucking a lot in languages you must be able to interpret as well. 00:27:10 I wonder how I handle the stuff retroforth has already put into memory. :) Oh well, it is time to wonder that later. 00:32:50 hi 00:33:12 hi? 00:33:35 rather I'm back for a bit :) 00:34:13 its a greeting 00:35:05 ok. 00:38:53 so you are in Finland? 00:39:00 yes. 00:39:05 texas here 00:40:21 is it a cold climate? 00:41:34 summers get very warm here. 00:41:41 heh. 00:42:07 It's unusual hot here. 00:42:35 So much light and warmth that everything almost burns. :D 00:42:55 there have been fires here out west 00:43:10 I'm in the wooded area in East texas, so we get more rain 00:44:39 The water here is mostly collected into growing plants and such, there's little cloudy thought. 00:44:48 going to go make some coffee -- brb 00:47:02 my phone's been offhook for an hour 27 minutes.... 00:51:22 --- join: segher_ (n=segher@dslb-084-056-159-022.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 00:59:50 --- quit: segher (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 01:06:58 --- quit: Raystm2 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 01:07:01 --- quit: Ray-work (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 01:07:33 --- join: Ray_work (n=Raystm2@adsl-68-89-124-38.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 01:09:51 --- join: Raystm2 (n=Raystm2@adsl-68-95-254-94.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 01:56:20 --- quit: snowrichard ("Leaving") 02:19:38 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@adsl-69-155-177-154.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net) joined #forth 02:25:20 --- quit: snowrichard (Remote closed the connection) 02:27:51 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@adsl-69-155-177-154.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net) joined #forth 02:38:16 --- quit: JasonWoof ("off to bed again") 04:03:23 --- quit: snowrichard ("Leaving") 04:16:27 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@adsl-69-155-177-154.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net) joined #forth 04:18:18 hi 04:19:34 --- quit: snowrichard (Client Quit) 04:32:19 --- nick: saon_ -> saon 04:53:33 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pete@0-1pool47-183.nas30.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 05:14:20 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@adsl-69-155-177-154.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net) joined #forth 05:24:52 Do you know where I could find out what is the memory structure of retroforth? 05:25:14 Try their source and website and docs? 05:25:28 I tried website and docs already. 05:25:43 Try their channel? 05:25:50 Is there such? where? :) 05:26:09 it's here, #retro or #retroforth, iirc 05:28:36 --- join: tathi (n=josh@pdpc/supporter/bronze/tathi) joined #forth 05:29:02 mornin', tathi 05:29:07 hi tathi 05:29:10 morning 05:38:30 --- join: timlarson_ (n=timlarso@65.116.199.19) joined #forth 05:39:58 --- join: Amanita_Virosa (n=jenni@adsl-69-154-191-107.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 05:45:24 hi 05:45:47 read the source, Luke :) 05:46:51 huh? 05:47:05 I think he meant Cheery 05:47:21 oh. yeah, definitely 05:47:30 malformed quote from Star wars :) 05:47:30 snowrichard. :) oh well. I gues I must. 05:47:36 it's at the end of core.asm IIRC 05:47:54 is it in nasm? 05:49:38 fasm 05:49:42 'n' means "neutral", right? ;-P 05:50:37 and, the 'f' means "futuristic"? 05:51:00 net assember or some such. The fasm comes with source to assemble itself if I remember right 05:51:42 PoppaVic: I assume you know what they really stand for? 05:51:51 flat assembler 05:51:56 like a tire 05:52:16 Cheery: in rf 9 it looks like it's at the end of rx/rx.cfg 05:52:22 tathi: not even remotely - you know I don't use asm and can barely read it ;-) We have as many assem as variants of forth or C. 05:52:30 tathi, ok. 05:52:43 Hm. Maybe I should ask yet one thing. I want a garbage collector that I could use in my lisp implementation, but I wonder how I should do it that it'd work. :) 05:53:02 I've been trying to read some of the dpans94.doc -- usually get sleepy before I get far 05:53:09 GC is usually an indicator 05:53:33 snowrichard: no real suprise - it almost makes the C standards a thriller 05:53:51 IBM manuals were good for insomnia too 05:54:48 I used to enjoy my tech-writing classes.. But, I dunno what they teach anymore: they all read like government documents. 05:55:03 PoppaVic, what do you mean? 05:55:19 Cheery: I've never implemented a garbage collector, but there's plenty of information on the web about the subject 05:55:48 Cheery: misused terms, run-on/overlong sentences, Lack of clarity, etc. 05:56:36 so you mean I shouldn't write garbage collector even lisp needs it? 05:56:39 oh.. GC.. You can ask the folks in ##C - the consensus is usually that they are interesting, but generally imply the programmer is the issue the GC is trying to save. 05:57:10 Cheery: see Zhivago, in ##C - he writes lisp and is WRITING A Lisp 05:57:30 there's a few cases where GC is useful 05:57:40 when you're dealing with snarly heavily nested structures, like GUI systems 05:57:41 certainly 05:57:42 but that's about it 05:57:48 i tend to agree with the consensus otherwise 05:57:58 i use reference counting when i have to solve one of those few snarly problems 05:58:02 Usually, it would be at the interpretive-compiler/human interface. 05:58:57 I were thinking about doing a generational garbage collector using mark&sweep to clean memory. 05:58:58 Yeah.. I can't recall if it was FIG-Forth or F83, but I recall modifying the headers to do ref-counting for statistical examination 05:59:56 well, malloc-variants and free() already do some of it.. I fear fragmentation more than cleanup 06:00:52 Cleanup is usually a forehead-slapper... Fragmentation is another whole problem. 06:00:52 PoppaVic, I think I handle the fragmentation out by shifting bytes or sth. 06:01:34 Shifting bytes/bits is just not going to save folks from overuse of the heap 06:02:05 Problem is: you never learn of that fragmentation (typically) until it's too damned late. 06:04:14 Cheery: now, it HAS occured to me that it COULD be useful to periodically (I don't know when it would help) track every heap-element, and write it all to a binaryfile, and fork a replacement process that loads that file after waxing the parent. THAT seems to suggest a "compaction". 06:05:15 oh. if you free the heap, doesn't it free really? 06:05:32 wam. 06:05:55 you need to read up on the malloc/free stuff. IF your Lispish is using them 06:07:07 can you give me a link? 06:07:08 This is why I like working in buffers to (maybe) do a single malloc and copy into "persistence-space" - and pray a lot about later free()s 06:07:09 --- part: tathi left #forth 06:07:37 Cheery: see google, manpages and info-files. I dunno yer machine or OS or compiler. 06:09:56 Cheery: as I said, I'd talk to Z, too. He's pedantic as hell, but a damn good source of (sarcastic) info/connections. 06:11:11 Fer cripes sakes, don't mention me, though - I've a tolerate/hate relationship, most places 06:12:16 well, it never hurts anybody to ask it. :) 06:12:26 oh, but it can ;-) 06:12:53 nah, if he doesn't live too near me. :) 06:13:01 --- join: virl (n=virl@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at) joined #forth 06:13:11 Depends on whom, when and why - folks get tired of solving homework and saving the "toolame" that refuse to google or buy books. 06:13:27 lo, virl 06:19:19 hi 06:19:29 what depends? 06:20:15 hmm? oh... How a question is recieved by a channel or person. 06:34:26 heh - tathi gave up on the GC and C conversation ;-) 06:35:42 I guess if you wanted to add a GC to a forth, and use the C libraries you could hack Gforth or something 06:36:16 Sure, if you could read it 06:36:45 haven't tried is it that bad? :) 06:37:21 TRY is easy - gforth is OK as a script-like tool. Looking thru the guts will make you sick. 06:40:25 snowrichard: it must be the 'G' prefix - they just love to rely on gcc special-stuff, and when it isn't gcc, I can't recall if they fail or write the worst code I've ever seen. I do know that I cannot build the latest Gforth source w/o a hack that breaks several things. 06:41:57 I'm asking myself how it should make sense to introduce GC to forth, what would be the result? no double use of word names? 06:42:25 virl: he was looking for solutions w/i Lisp 06:43:04 w/i? 06:43:15 but GC? well, the prob is that most forths just don't think of codespace/heap and buffers as well as they should. 06:43:22 within 06:44:12 virl: I sent him off to talk with ##C:Zhivago, since he lives there as well and Z is a lisp-freak working on a lisp imp. 06:45:28 it uses one particular gcc extension (label constants) 06:45:48 which "it"? 06:45:55 the gforth gcc code 06:46:00 oh. 06:47:02 No, it uses more than those - but It's not gcc-reliance that bugs me as much as whacked __attrib__ and code that is so heavily conditional. 06:47:24 #ifdefs and such? 06:47:27 ..plus, gforth has a really bad-hobbit of building a monster as default 06:47:30 yeah 06:48:39 I had written a forth (not standard) in C that someone compiled on MacOS and it worked. I wrote it on intel linux. 06:49:06 they said my code was readable enough 06:49:19 yeah, I'm working on a variant - I'm tired of the messes. 06:49:29 snowrichard: not seen yers, though 06:49:43 I lost the source when my website went down for non-payment 06:50:18 heh - lose a hdd - it'll make you scream, cry, and fume for days. 06:50:23 so when I got a new domain I paid 2 yrs in advance 06:50:36 rather than monthly bill 06:51:30 lost a whole computer two days ago 06:51:39 but my mom had given it to me 07:02:38 --- quit: snowrichard ("Leaving") 07:02:45 --- join: yoyofreeman (n=root@219.145.82.38) joined #forth 07:08:30 --- quit: PoppaVic ("bbiab - I've some chores to attend..") 07:25:12 --- quit: Amanita_Virosa ("Whee.") 07:59:42 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@adsl-69-155-177-154.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net) joined #forth 08:09:04 hi 08:11:39 hi 08:14:49 got a wild idea a few minutes ago -- http://richardsnow.net/software.html 08:17:26 you've schizophrenia? 08:17:56 why does it limit you from having a job? 08:23:36 it made it nearly impossible to get one. Either they ask you what meds you take or they say something like "he's not telling us something " in the interview 08:24:04 just a sec my tape ran out. 08:25:38 back 08:26:05 I don't interview well 08:26:43 I've quite a collection of rejection letters. threw them away though. 08:27:18 --- quit: timlarson_ ("Leaving") 08:29:32 --- join: JasonWoof (n=jason@pdpc/supporter/student/Herkamire) joined #forth 08:29:32 --- mode: ChanServ set +o JasonWoof 08:29:41 morning JasonWoof 08:31:05 I'm only interested so sorry when I ask, but how is it with schizophrenia? I heard that when you have schizophrenia you have some sedimentations in your brain 08:31:47 It has to do with the neuro transmitters and receptors being out of kilter some how 08:32:50 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pete@0-1pool46-156.nas30.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 08:33:50 whew 08:33:58 but how does it affect your behaviour? I heard that some get aggressive and other some hear voices 08:34:17 * PoppaVic perks up... 08:34:47 if I go w/o sleep too long I hallucinate, not usually voices, but thoughts that are not appropriate 08:34:52 and visuals 08:35:03 ahh, indeed 08:35:07 ooh, kewl. 08:35:18 .."walking on pillows" and "oh, that's funny/clever!" 08:35:36 like one time after installing a lot of stuff on a source-based distro I saw scrolling text on the walls. :) 08:35:43 Sleep-Deprivation, I presume? 08:35:51 oh, yeah 08:36:42 Still, it's the only way to force yerself into a decent sleep/wake cycle... You just FORCE yerself awake for about 30-36 hours. 08:36:44 well, the good thing about it, you don't need drugs like magic mushrooms 08:37:12 my brother sold mushroom snow-cones one time while my mom was away 08:37:15 hehe - just watch the timestamps on any new code ;-) 08:37:34 the cops came and wondered why they were doing so much business -- gave the cop a normal snowcone :) 08:38:07 lol 08:39:25 hi snowrichard :) 08:39:55 just added a new page to my host here 08:40:14 slowly I begin to understand why you called yourself snowrichard 08:40:19 http://richardsnow.net/software.html -- which triggered this discussion 08:40:22 Boy, lemme' tellyawhat: working with stacks is a _lot_ harder than interfacing with arg-lists. 08:41:19 the old 360 calling standard always used arg list -- it didn't have "stacks" 08:41:19 ..even asm (register) interfaces can be easier 08:41:47 except for a linked list of register save areas 08:41:48 sure, there are so many variants of so many things it's almost impossible. 08:41:56 360 calling standard? I never ever heard about it 08:42:07 IBM mainframe -- ancient 08:42:30 well, I'm still not sure how macosx/powerbooks use stack-frames, let alone stacks. BUT, I'm trying to get around the lot. 08:42:31 they have Z-servers now :) 08:42:49 I hope that means Zilog is still rockin' ;-) 08:42:57 no 08:43:17 see? That's why I give up on following all the new twists. 08:44:15 I had a Z-80 system once (well was my mom's ) Radio Shack Mod III 08:44:22 eww 08:44:33 well, at least the chip was decent 08:44:36 mine was the 6809 based color computer 08:44:54 ran a unix-like (minimal kind of thing) OS9 08:45:12 its made by Microware, they have more modern versions now 08:45:14 Too close a tie between OS and chip/asm in too many cases 08:45:44 /OS/platform+OS/ 08:46:10 generally, not enough feedback/reporting. 08:47:03 I've got an IBM370 emulator and a VAX emulator on here 08:47:15 Huhhuh, this is hard with only documentation what I find from retroforth.org. And reading source assembly is so hard that it is out from my choices. 08:47:38 heheheheha 08:47:47 Emulators are nice 08:47:53 the isforth source was kind of hairy too : ) 08:48:10 Still I don't have the complete picture what's inside the retroforth's memory even I've been trying to find it out for a while :E 08:48:35 Cheery: almost all "popular" Forth-variants are predicated on hairy-asm for a particular platform, OS and assembler 08:48:50 Cheery: what exactly are you seeking, and why? 08:49:17 I want to know inside out how retro handles it's memory currently. 08:49:35 serially allocated dictionary space if I remember right 08:49:39 like dictionary entrys, etc. 08:49:49 you'd have to dick with their endsource and tests - because you almost never are supposed to know 08:50:24 Cheery: what background are you approaching this whole chore from? 08:51:41 PoppaVic, what do you mean? You mean what I've been doing before this? 08:52:03 Yeah, yer historic development until this quest. 08:52:33 Because, trust me, shit is never as "simple" as their interfaces suggest. 08:53:03 few years visual basic, five years C++, game development, python, forth, lisps in general, common lisp. 08:53:06 Where are you "coming from" and "where do you plan to go"? 08:53:09 But I've started young. 08:53:13 ahhhhh 08:53:24 OK, yer already impaired. 08:53:44 ? 08:54:15 what do you mean? 08:54:42 geek from beginning 08:54:47 VB is a slut; C++ is at least as bad; games mean little except devices; python is scripting, forth is better scripting; lisp predicated forth and usually STILL means "special tools" 08:55:47 Your "platform" is apparently Doze. WIth DOS as an afterthought. 08:56:20 Isn't BigForth still around, guys? Portable to doze? 08:56:52 I remember I'd been using BigForth. Not sure. 08:57:29 Yeah.. Yer approaching areas you can't possibly understand w/o some deeper experiences/pain. 08:58:22 PoppaVic, :) I know. 08:58:25 Do you understand the difference between source, data, and object files? 08:58:55 ..or, platform versus OS versus tools? 08:59:39 There was certainly a time when these flavors were NOT "taught". 08:59:40 yes? 08:59:54 nobody taught nothing for me, I took books and learnt. 09:00:00 the question scares me ;-) 09:00:38 Well, the books and web and google - and the OS and tools - matter no end. 09:00:50 I wrote a bootstrap loader once to bypass a failed cassette deck the Navy didn't have a spare for . 09:01:34 the "interface" on the machine was front panel switches. 09:01:34 Cheery: I get the feeling you want to code some ABI between retroforth and something ELSE. 09:02:05 snowrichard: I was there for that era - and couldn't afford them or it ;-) 09:02:05 I have a degree in C.S. and a lot of this stuff is still over my head ;) 09:02:15 RIght. 09:02:35 thought I'm slightly jealous. If I had access to internet in the first place when I were nine, it'd be propably different. 09:02:39 Folks want to argue, but - guess what? - Programming is much Art as Science. 09:02:50 PoppaVic, :) 09:03:06 Cheery: I doubt it.. about 80+% is persistence and trials/tests 09:03:13 I don't know if it science and art is different at all. 09:03:23 Trust me, I do 09:04:29 You can employ science and engineering to "The Best Novel" and - it'll fail if the Art does not grab yer nuts & rock right on. 09:05:05 Now, sure - TOOLS - tools are tools... Art is a mere case of "marketing" 09:05:24 When I took the CS degree it was all batch processing -- submit cards and wait hours for a printout -- you worked at getting your code pretty much perfect the first run. 09:05:49 Cheery: so, again... I have to ask: where are you coming-from, doing, and going? 09:05:52 or you wasted a feew hours 09:06:16 * PoppaVic pauses to switch laundry 09:06:58 PoppaVic, your question is ambiguous. 09:07:14 I don't know what to answer. 09:10:13 after 40 minutes finally a station break to edit :) 09:11:32 Cheery there were not even microcomputers at all when I was 9 :) 09:11:46 I graduated HS in 1975 09:12:07 college in 87 09:12:58 then flunked out of grad school 09:13:18 * PoppaVic "geezus..." THat shit gets old 09:13:34 which? 09:13:34 sorry, back 09:14:07 snowrichard: trying to vaccuum and wash everything in the basement before we move down the next batch of kittens 09:14:25 you have kittens? I have 5 now 09:14:50 two black/white, one solid black, two gray/white 09:15:08 We've just delivered a batch of 5; and have a batch of 4, 3, and 5 left - barring anymore suffocated corpses. 09:15:38 my exwife washed one of mine one time --- by the time I heard the "yowl" it was too late. ' 09:15:56 We located a petshope that would take 'em at the right age, for persons - not experimentation - so, we have a release-valve. 09:16:24 we have animal shelter here that will adopt them, but first I'll get a newspaper ad they will run free 09:16:35 OTHERWISE, I'd just chuck them out into the spring-weather on the farm. 09:16:51 they could make it on a farm 09:16:58 eat rats 09:17:07 Meanwhile, I still have very little idea what Cheery is looking for/from/why. 09:17:38 Yeah, small varmints and such - I never have an issue letting them run around on the farm.. "Deal with it, or move along" 09:18:17 --- join: snoopy_1711 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-166-052.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 09:18:37 another station break zapped 09:18:40 Writing my C interface to my Forthism-system is becoming a major challenge. 09:19:20 I can imagine -- do you have any code released yet? 09:19:36 With the support I am NOT seeing, I may well make the fucker proprietary - just to tick off the leeches. 09:20:07 oh, hell - we have a load of C code - none specific to the interface. Mostly tests that SHOULD be portable. 09:20:16 just recompile on a windows box -- so GPL is illegal :) 09:20:25 according to bill 09:20:49 I have zero interest in doze. All I really care about is posix and gcc/c 09:22:12 I'm shooting for a "tool" you can dynamically rebuild, extend or plugin-to. 09:22:31 small fire in my ashtray -- got it out by dumping coffee in it : ) 09:22:59 hehe - I do that daily... Smudge-fires ;-) 09:23:28 my brother one time made himself a cardboard ashtray -- set the couch on fire :) 09:23:46 oy, shit 09:24:05 --- join: nballen (n=nballen@adsl-75-14-222-78.dsl.renocs.sbcglobal.net) joined #forth 09:24:05 lol 09:24:11 o for dumb : slap forehead 09:24:22 bg says all sorts of weird things about GPL and linux 09:24:31 says the GPL is confusing 09:24:33 riiight 09:24:44 hehe 09:24:49 I've read it several times, it is quite clear and consise 09:24:59 JasonWoof: and this is the MOST PORTABLE ;-) 09:25:10 I watched an interview the other day -- the interviewer asked if he had an Ipod... 09:25:16 I dunno, licenses tend to be crap for lawyers 09:25:21 I have zero interest in doze <--- I like a good nap 09:25:23 v3 draft was confusing in parts, but hopefully they'll fix that before the final version 09:25:58 what's the point about ipod? 09:26:07 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 09:26:20 APPLE -- he said he prefered to use his phone for tunes. 09:26:27 --- nick: snoopy_1711 -> Snoopy42 09:26:44 I'd look 'im in the eye and say: "I Still own casettes and now deal with cd/dvd - shove yer Ipod-crap up yer ass" 09:27:01 microsoft _needs_ apple to survive 09:27:06 hell, I still have LP's, fer cripes sakes 09:27:13 they have "given" apple lots of money to assure that it does survive 09:27:23 my first ex stole all my vinyl 09:28:05 well, I can't afford to reinvest all the $$ - I'd burn or dup first. 09:28:06 if apple goes under than the courts will no longer listen to a word of MS's BS about not being a monopoly 09:28:13 and MS will have to split up or something 09:28:23 Shit, I was happy with 8-tracks in my car! 09:28:41 didn't they break quit a bit though? 09:28:51 JasonWoof: be a bit late, wouldn't it?? 09:28:58 They did dick to M$ 09:29:00 who break what? 09:29:08 8 track 09:29:15 they made comments, but nothing ever happened 09:29:33 yeah, and I HATED the "thump" of track-switches 09:30:16 my dad used something that looked like an 8 track at the radio for commercials. 09:30:39 he was a DJ when working through college 09:30:58 Unless they used VHS for sound-only, it was an 8-track 09:31:36 but it was rigged with some kind of tone signal to stop it after each spot 09:31:53 crap... macosx is downloading updates forever 09:32:00 push a button, it played one and stopped 09:32:10 sure. Same is true with magtape 09:32:49 it all depends on the controller, based on the i/o and code and os ;-) 09:33:22 * PoppaVic notes Cheery has gone really, really quiet ;-> 09:33:50 PoppaVic, yeh. 09:34:58 --- quit: nballen () 09:35:03 PoppaVic, I'm doing lisp implementation on forth just for fun. 09:35:40 might be easier in assembly :) 09:35:48 duck 09:37:20 snowrichard, forth provides me things what assembly doesnt, purity from hardware. 09:46:40 snowrichard, so why should it be in assembly snowrichard? do you think it would be better in lisp? 09:46:48 Cheery: "for fun" rarely is 09:46:48 "tests on FOO under BAR" are prolly more useful 09:46:48 Cheery: 'C' can often offer the same "purity" - and you usually end up in the same skull-fucked place. 09:46:53 ..but a bit more portable 09:46:58 Geezus.... thank Christ for Lye/Quicklime. 09:47:02 ..two drains this week wanted to "hang" - no select() or timeout or ioctl()s 09:47:10 ewwww 09:47:14 asm is a dialect 09:47:21 Platforms are the place 09:47:42 ,and an OS added means "language" 09:48:25 an OS means not 'language' it means concepts. 09:48:31 I was joking kind of =- I prefer to do stuff in C 09:48:37 yep. "the universe" 09:48:53 though I've also used Python scripts 09:49:09 which is C underneath as its compiled C 09:49:29 virl: please recall, through all the crap: a "dialect" is *NOT* "*the* _language_" 09:49:55 there is - apparently - no true "language", other than maybe ascii 09:50:36 Everything is layered and interpreters of compiled of interpreted of... 09:52:03 heh.. THe kicker seems to be: Can I specify an interpreter or is this internal-layering? 09:52:20 it ALWAYS seems that way 09:52:34 well, everything is layered but it doesn't mean that the language is the OS, the OS has the concepts to deal with and the language provides the mechanisms to implement them in a good to bad manner. 09:52:36 ..from the days of COBOL/SNOBOL and FORTRAN 09:52:57 virl: ahhhhh 09:53:25 languages which are the OS aren't bound to the OS like smalltalk, because they are the OS 09:53:26 I find lisp and forth feeling safer and more comforting choices than C or python. 09:53:38 Yer talking about (what I've always bitched about): reporting back enough info from a tool to line up the ducks. 09:54:07 lisp and forth hides nothing from you, but the information is so much that it is a bitch to digest. 09:54:46 Cheery: that's nice, except... Most lisps have an object/program compiler _built-in_ - forth has neither, and C has the .o compiler, the .S assembler and deals with the lonker ;-) 09:55:38 :) well, yeh. Lisp is complex, but still it feels simpler than many things I've used. 09:55:44 they hide things as long as you implement them into them, if they wouldn't hide them then they are platform dependend and so only portable through implementing another concepts of an OS 09:56:26 yep. Most forth-variants expose the entire guts (badly) - and can't see where a header or a body or a lookup or a wordlist is seperable - and values are usually too generic to tolerate for long. 09:56:51 virl: yer talking about an interface - badly. 09:57:28 Lisp and forth feels like a natural state of mind, unlike C or C++ which I never handled well even I spent long time on them. 09:58:05 would you rather go back to COBOL :) 09:58:15 Cooolll.. My new press is here ;-) 09:58:16 verbose, self-documenting 09:58:18 an interface is always present 09:58:43 no. 09:59:18 "Self-documenting" is a PERFECT-STATE - you will never get there, and current (dpans) shit will never make it true 09:59:20 for hardware you have an interface, for libs you have an interface and so on, that's the current way of doing it. 09:59:32 API, yes 10:00:05 ABI versus API versus "order"? "syntax"? "semantic"? "layers"? 10:00:13 or the other extreme -- 1 line unreadable gibberrish 10:00:20 APL 10:00:20 right 10:00:27 apl and such 10:00:27 * Cheery is happy, really relaxed and calm. 10:00:31 ;-) 10:00:43 I have both on this system to play with 10:01:04 and two PL/I compilers (one on VAX/VMS the other on MVS83j 10:01:11 I'm working, daily, to beat a Forthish (FICL-like) interface into talking with C. 10:01:41 in fact every lib represents an interface to it's containing code 10:02:01 worse 10:02:16 each linker speaks a special dialect. 10:03:37 well then it's an interface for a special platform so linker so OS so the OS are the concepts and not the language. 10:05:06 seemed simpler back in the day of an 8-bit processor and assembly :) 10:05:36 but the cassette tape was sooooooooo slooooow lol 10:06:26 well there was the program and the environment 10:12:14 --- join: PoppaVic1 (n=pete@0-1pool46-164.nas30.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 10:13:32 --- quit: PoppaVic (Nick collision from services.) 10:13:38 --- nick: PoppaVic1 -> PoppaVic 10:13:48 fuckin' ISP 10:14:05 --- quit: Cheery (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 10:14:20 --- join: Cheery (i=Henri@a81-197-22-81.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #forth 10:14:26 it's this goddamned macosx Update shit *sigh* 10:14:39 it only loves you 10:14:49 virl: past the last few lines, please? 10:15:10 (I was typing a reply when it all went to shit) 10:15:53 If it doesn't matter - don't bother. 10:16:29