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05:41:08 <nighty_> hello :)
05:41:34 <nighty_> what do people call a 'turnkey' app in forth ? 
05:41:41 <nighty_> something like a standalone app ? 
05:41:45 <PoppaVic> a turnkey app
05:42:08 <nighty_> PoppaVic: ? 
05:42:19 <PoppaVic> THat's what it is called
05:42:43 <nighty_> PoppaVic: no that is the question I asked
05:42:58 <PoppaVic> Typically, it's also an entire forth-system, but reset and saved to run the app on startup.
05:43:16 <nighty_> I see
05:43:41 <nighty_> I think I see
05:43:42 <nighty_> :)
05:44:02 <PoppaVic> There are supposed to be a few freeware systems that actually strip the image to basics, too - but I think that's more typical of commercial products.
05:44:28 <nighty_> I am talking about some retroforth 
05:44:30 <nighty_> thing
05:44:31 <nighty_> I read
05:45:03 <nighty_> PoppaVic: do you use retroforth ? 
05:45:14 <PoppaVic> no.. I use macosx - no go.
05:45:25 <nighty_> PoppaVic: what do you use then ? 
05:45:43 <PoppaVic> I've Gforth, Ficl 4+, and pfe around..
05:45:57 <nighty_> PoppaVic: Ficl 4+ I don't know this
05:45:58 <PoppaVic> I use C regular, and tinker in the first two
05:46:20 <nighty_> PoppaVic: oh so you are a C programmer
05:46:22 <nighty_> PoppaVic: ? 
05:46:28 <PoppaVic> Forth Inspired Command Language - Ficl is C source that you can embed that runs like a forth variant
05:46:42 <PoppaVic> yup, C for decades.
05:47:02 <nighty_> PoppaVic: forth no good ? 
05:47:40 <PoppaVic> I generally tinker with libs and such, and forth doesn't do .o and .a/.so/.dynlib
05:48:17 <nighty_> PoppaVic: oh 
05:48:30 <nighty_> PoppaVic: would there be a way to make it do this ? 
05:48:34 <PoppaVic> I used FIG-Forth long, long ago - but I keep her around for diddling and tinkering interactively.
05:48:46 <PoppaVic> make what do which?
05:49:34 <nighty_> PoppaVic: make forth produce static lib and dynamic lib ? 
05:49:56 <PoppaVic> As far as I know, none of the latest crop of variants do either,
05:50:53 <PoppaVic> FICL would embed in C, so it'd be useful in that way.. I can't recall if pfe or Gforth can use a dll.
05:51:18 <nighty_> Gforth I think can do this
05:51:41 <nighty_> I think I read about it while searching about the different forth 
05:51:53 <PoppaVic> I think you are correct - I believe what I mean is.. None of them can write an object or lib.
05:52:26 <nighty_> maybe also retroforth can do this ? 
05:52:51 <nighty_> using external dll ? 
05:53:02 <nighty_> I have to ask crc about this
05:53:52 <PoppaVic> I've bemoaned the fact I can't find a libobjbuild module for a long while.
05:58:57 <nighty_> :)
05:59:30 <nighty_> PoppaVic: maybe it is difficult to do ?
05:59:33 <PoppaVic> ..mostly because I have zero interest in learning to generate (manually) .o or shared-libs.
05:59:56 <PoppaVic> nighty_: It looks tedious, but not really difficult.
06:00:12 <nighty_> PoppaVic: well these are specific to each architecture
06:00:16 <nighty_> PoppaVic: I believe
06:00:19 <PoppaVic> yeppers
06:00:33 <PoppaVic> ..and a lot of info that we generally are not privvy to
06:01:01 <nighty_> PoppaVic: uhmm on opensource , it is easy to find this information 
06:01:10 <nighty_> PoppaVic: read the source :)
06:01:35 <nighty_> PoppaVic: however GCC is quite some piece of software 
06:01:36 <PoppaVic> umm... No. Not unless you fight thru the assembler sources, and then the compiler sources,
06:01:44 <nighty_> PoppaVic: at least it is to me :)
06:02:00 <PoppaVic> My life is too short to puzzle out the source and voodoo in either.
06:02:07 <nighty_> :)
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06:54:38 <nighty_> hi
06:56:36 <PoppaVic> howdy - what I miss?
07:16:55 <JasonWoof> hi nighty_, timlarson_ :)
07:17:05 <timlarson_> hi
07:17:31 <JasonWoof> another fine morning in paradise :)
07:17:55 <PoppaVic> Sorta'
07:18:02 <JasonWoof> what's the coolest thing you've ever seen, done or made in forth?
07:18:31 <PoppaVic> I've never seen an APP that made me wet myself.
07:18:41 <PoppaVic> interfaces? Yeah.
07:18:45 <segher> tt.fs :-)
07:19:08 <JasonWoof> truetype?
07:20:53 <segher> tetris
07:21:05 <PoppaVic> Maybe PostSCript ;->
07:22:30 <JasonWoof> :)
07:22:41 <JasonWoof> for isforth?
07:22:56 <segher> tt.fs is ANS
07:23:03 <PoppaVic> no, I meant "postscript" - the language and tool ;-)
07:23:16 <JasonWoof> cool
07:25:14 <PoppaVic> Forth lends itself to merely tools, unfortunately.
07:25:52 <PoppaVic> ..a bastard might say "scripts"
07:39:02 <nighty_> JasonWoof: morning ? 
07:39:21 <nighty_> JasonWoof: where are you located ? :)
07:39:40 <PoppaVic> It ain't even 1100 <shrug>
07:40:42 <nighty_> PoppaVic: you don't one could make a Web GUI with Forth ? 
07:40:51 <nighty_> PoppaVic: too much of a pain to do it ? 
07:41:34 <PoppaVic> I don't waste much time with the web, and I almost never write a GUI. The former is a mess, the latter is broken.
07:41:47 <nighty_> PoppaVic: first we'd have to have a descent http server :)
07:41:56 <PoppaVic> otoh, I live on the desktop and use apps, but live in termwin
07:42:04 <nighty_> PoppaVic: well I agree, but hey customer require it :)
07:42:44 <PoppaVic> it has nothing to do with "a decent http server" - the whole paradigm is broken because folks forgot the intent and limits.
07:43:13 <nighty_> PoppaVic: well I personnaly do not care for the web in its present state either
07:43:17 <PoppaVic> customers are morons, this is why there are sales-staff.
07:43:27 <nighty_> PoppaVic: right :)
07:43:52 <nighty_> PoppaVic: but It goes  Customers --> Sales --> Engineering 
07:44:10 <nighty_> PoppaVic: Engineering then has to do it :(
07:44:16 <PoppaVic> There is nothing in the universe that sez you can't reimplement http, and add a whole layer beyond it that gets past the mess.
07:44:32 <PoppaVic> en-gi-neers are not on my guest-list
07:44:43 <nighty_> PoppaVic: what do you mean ? 
07:44:59 <nighty_> PoppaVic: not on your guest list ? 
07:45:09 <PoppaVic> engineers are as fubar as customers, but in a different direction
07:45:18 <nighty_> PoppaVic: sorry I am not a native speaker , so I don't get your drifts
07:45:36 <PoppaVic> so'k - I'm old, mean annd dealt with the lot.
07:46:03 <nighty_> PoppaVic: so what are you ? 
07:46:07 <nighty_> PoppaVic: you are not a customer
07:46:15 <nighty_> not an engineer
07:46:20 <nighty_> not a sales persons 
07:46:28 <nighty_> that would make you ? 
07:46:46 <PoppaVic> I'm just an oldfart that has been around for decades - my taste in code is like my tastes in music or art or literature
07:46:52 <JasonWoof> nighty_: I'm in western mass
07:47:08 <nighty_> JasonWoof: ok :)
07:47:35 <JasonWoof> I've got code to do web scripting in forth
07:47:45 <nighty_> JasonWoof: really ? 
07:47:47 <JasonWoof> I made a shopping cart demo with it
07:47:50 <PoppaVic> Most folks prolly do
07:48:01 <JasonWoof> and an irc log viewer
07:48:07 <nighty_> cool :)
07:48:16 <PoppaVic> Forth is no more irksome that using perl or sh or whatever
07:48:25 <JasonWoof> and a dead-simple payment calculator on my business site
07:48:35 <nighty_> :)
07:48:44 <nighty_> JasonWoof: what is your business site ? 
07:48:47 <nighty_> JasonWoof: url ? 
07:48:51 <JasonWoof> jasonwoof.com
07:48:56 <nighty_> lol :)
07:49:04 <nighty_> I could have guessed :)
07:49:06 <JasonWoof> jasonwoof.com/pay.fs?amount=100
07:49:17 <JasonWoof> :)
07:49:31 <JasonWoof> jasonwoof.com/filb.fs is the log viewer
07:50:07 <JasonWoof> here's the info on the source code:  http://jasonwoof.org/gforthcgi
07:50:49 <JasonWoof> I'm going to improve the log viewer so it combines multiple days together, because that channel often has several days in a row with no content
07:51:39 <nighty_> what http server you are using ? 
07:51:43 <nighty_> I did not check 
07:52:20 <JasonWoof> apache
07:52:29 <JasonWoof> but it's just hooked in as a standard CGI script
07:52:32 <JasonWoof> should work with any server
07:52:41 <PoppaVic> oddly, there is nothing stopping forth from acting AS the "server" ;-)
07:53:14 <nighty_> JasonWoof: does it manage sessions ? 
07:53:35 <nighty_> JasonWoof: I mean the gforthcgi 
07:53:56 <nighty_> PoppaVic: I know I saw some code sample
07:54:23 <PoppaVic> had no idea they had a CGI - but that was NOT what I meant
07:54:24 <nighty_> PoppaVic: however , there are differences between a http server , and a good http server
07:54:35 * PoppaVic sighs
07:54:42 <nighty_> PoppaVic: even more so , between a http server and a secure http server :)
07:55:35 <nighty_> PoppaVic: I saw some code sample for a http server in gforth 
07:56:23 <nighty_> PoppaVic: some basic one
07:59:41 <nighty_> JasonWoof: why don't you write a bot in forth instead of using the one in PERL ? 
08:04:01 <JasonWoof> nighty_: there is some code for doing sessions
08:04:04 <JasonWoof> no cookies though
08:04:31 <JasonWoof> I probably didn't write the bot in forth because I didn't know how
08:04:48 <JasonWoof> or I didn't know about the buffering stuff
08:04:58 <JasonWoof> I need to be able to read/write fd 6 and 7
08:06:10 <JasonWoof> and be able to try reading for a set period of time (don't think gforth can do this)
08:06:59 <JasonWoof> the shopping cart demo I made uses the session handling stuff
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10:42:28 <nighty_> JasonWoof: I see
10:42:50 <nighty_> JasonWoof: retroforth can not do this ? 
10:43:26 <nighty_> JasonWoof: what is fd 6 and 7 ? 
10:43:43 <nighty_> JasonWoof: I know fd is filedescriptor
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10:47:45 <nighty_> JasonWoof: could make a tarball for me ? 
10:48:02 <nighty_> JasonWoof: I don't know how to use svn 
10:48:46 <nighty_> JasonWoof: Also I think there should be a way to make automatic package retrieval using forth
10:48:56 <nighty_> JasonWoof: a la PERL or Ruby
10:49:15 <nighty_> JasonWoof: that would make Forth a lot more attractive for newcomers
10:49:21 <nighty_> JasonWoof: like me :)
10:49:43 <nighty_> JasonWoof: when I understand more about forth I think I'll make such a package
10:50:03 <nighty_> JasonWoof: hopefully other will make use of it
10:50:09 <nighty_> JasonWoof: at that time :)
10:50:39 <nighty_> for now I need a tutor :) to teach me basic Forth :)
10:50:51 <nighty_> to get on the fast track 
11:20:58 <tathi> nighty_: I take it you're new to Forth?
11:29:05 <nighty_> tathi: yes 
11:29:13 <nighty_> tathi: I am a n00b
11:29:21 <nighty_> :)
11:35:37 <tathi> what were you asking about retroforth there?
11:36:55 <nighty_> tathi: I should not be asking about retroforth here ? 
11:37:28 <tathi> it's fine
11:37:52 <tathi> but you said "retroforth can not do this ?" and I wondered what you were asking about
11:38:12 <nighty_> JasonWoof nighty_: there is some code for doing sessions
11:38:13 <nighty_> JasonWoof no cookies though
11:38:13 <nighty_> JasonWoof I probably didn't write the bot in forth because I didn't know how
11:38:13 <nighty_> JasonWoof or d what I asked ? 
11:40:06 <tathi> yeah
11:40:13 <nighty_> I need to do sessions with a forth cgi 
11:40:38 <nighty_> although right now I know nothing about FORTH :)
11:40:43 <nighty_> or very little 
11:41:08 <tathi> fd 6 and 7 are used to pass data to/from tcpserver IIRC
11:42:46 <tathi> Jason's code might be adaptable for your purposes, though it's not documented well
11:45:41 <tathi> http://qualdan.com/forth/gforthcgi.tar.gz
11:45:44 <tathi> there's a tarball
11:56:18 <nighty_> thanks :)
11:56:49 <nighty_> what about the period of time thing
11:58:25 <tathi> no idea what that's about
12:00:04 <tathi> maybe he wanted to be able to time out if something went screwy with the connection?
12:16:58 <nighty_> tathi: no
12:17:13 <nighty_> tathi I think he just wants to timeout cookies
12:17:28 <nighty_> tathi: like with any session system (web)
12:18:10 <nighty_> tathi: you make a cookie and when someone accesses the url you request the cookie of the client and compare it 
12:18:28 <nighty_> tathi: with the cookie and the cookie lifelimit
12:19:01 <nighty_> tathi: if there are not timestamp and time and date functions in forth 
12:19:09 <nighty_> tathi: you have a problem :)
12:31:49 <tathi> I know how cookies work
12:31:56 <tathi> I thought he was talking about the bot there
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12:53:58 <nighty_> tathi no he was not , he was at the beginning then switched to answer my second question:)
12:54:04 <nighty_> oops
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13:00:14 <JasonWoof> the time stuff and fd business I was talking about has nothing to do with gforchcgi
13:00:19 <JasonWoof> those are requirements for writing an IRC bot
13:01:06 <JasonWoof> you need the timing business because sometimes the irc server will drop your connection and never tell you (this tcpserver sits and waits forever)
13:03:03 <JasonWoof> I've never done anything with cookies in any language
13:03:13 <nighty_> JasonWoof: ohh
13:03:20 <nighty_> JasonWoof: ok 
13:03:34 <nighty_> JasonWoof: well for cookies you also need time functions :)
13:03:37 <JasonWoof> gforthcgi has functionaly to generate a session key, and store random data associated with it
13:03:51 <JasonWoof> and it makes it easy to incorperate that session key into links and forms
13:03:57 <JasonWoof> but it doesn't store it in a cookie
13:04:48 <nighty_> JasonWoof: I am talking over my head here anyway , as I don't know about forth (yet)
13:04:57 <JasonWoof> the reason I was blabbing on about timing and fd 6 and 7 is that you asked why I didn't code the bot in forth. The simple answer is that I don't have a forth with the capabilities required
13:05:15 <nighty_> JasonWoof: and you are using gforth ? 
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13:05:57 <JasonWoof> I'm using gforth
13:06:06 <JasonWoof> sorry I missed all your questions above, I thought it was a paste
13:06:30 <JasonWoof> retroforth probably has good networking stuff. I'm sure you could write an irc bot with it
13:06:48 <nighty_> ok
13:06:55 <JasonWoof> I don't think gforth does networking at all
13:08:01 <JasonWoof> I don't think I've said anything forth-specific here
13:08:16 <JasonWoof> except that gforth isn't suitable for direct networking
13:08:42 <JasonWoof> it's fine for CGI though because the webserver handles the networking stuff
13:13:09 <nighty_> yes :)
13:13:27 <nighty_> except if you want to write your own http server :)
13:13:45 <nighty_> I think you can so some networking stuff in gforth
13:13:53 <nighty_> I saw some sample code
13:13:58 <nighty_> in the examples files
13:18:34 <JasonWoof> ok
13:19:26 <JasonWoof> gforth does have a ffi
13:19:46 <JasonWoof> so you could use that to do networking if there isn't any built in
13:20:01 <JasonWoof> do you want to write an http server?
13:25:27 <nighty_> I might have to 
13:25:50 <nighty_> right now I need to assess the possibilities of forth 
13:26:35 <nighty_> the capabilities (is more correct)
13:27:06 <nighty_> right now I am looking at retroforth
13:27:41 <nighty_> but I can't even figure out how to run a forth program using it :)
13:28:01 <nighty_> I feel really dum
13:28:06 <nighty_> maybe it is because I am :)
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13:30:38 <JasonWoof> rf file.rf
13:30:45 <JasonWoof> or maybe:  rf < file.rf
13:32:40 <nighty_> JasonWoof: the 1st one does not work 
13:32:50 <nighty_> JasonWoof: I'll try the second on e)
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13:36:00 <JasonWoof> nighty_: if the seccond doesn't work either let me know what error messages you get
13:37:36 <nighty_> JasonWoof: the first one seems to work 
13:37:43 <nighty_> JasonWoof: the second one does not
13:37:58 <nighty_> TOKEN0:  Unable to find or convert the specified token to
13:37:58 <nighty_>          a number. The token passed was: irc.f
13:37:58 <nighty_>   
13:38:21 <nighty_> I tried to use crc's irc.f file
13:38:34 <nighty_> modified some parameters only
13:39:11 <nighty_> I think it's because it might need the generic version of the retroforth
13:43:42 <nighty_> uhmm no
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14:11:41 <JasonWoof> the first time you said the first one didn't work...
14:11:58 <JasonWoof> I'm confused
14:12:40 <JasonWoof> oh! my laptop is x86, I should install rf
14:12:50 <JasonWoof> kinda busy atm though
14:18:18 <nighty_> JasonWoof: crc helped me
14:18:38 <nighty_> JasonWoof: it was rf-freebsd -f <file>
14:18:46 <nighty_> JasonWoof: but it cores dump :)
14:28:09 <JasonWoof> heh 
14:28:20 <JasonWoof> porting is tough
14:33:02 <JasonWoof> I think bsd networking is different than linux networking
15:16:26 <nighty_> yes it is better :)
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20:15:30 <snowrichard> hi
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20:39:25 --- log: started forth/06.05.08
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20:39:25 --- topic: 'Welcome to #forth. We discuss the Forth programming language, simplicity, and a variety of technical subjects. The rules are simple: don't spam, don't troll, and please speak English.'
20:39:25 --- topic: set by Quartus on [Sat Jan 21 17:32:55 2006]
20:39:25 --- names: list (clog uiuiuiu @crc madwork segher_ Ray_work oxygene micropal Snoopy42 @JasonWoof madgarden Quartus arke Zymurgy Raystm2 Jim7J1AJH Hobart warpzero ohub ccfg)
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