00:00:00 --- log: started forth/06.04.26 00:06:28 --- quit: crc (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 00:19:18 --- quit: Quartus (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 00:35:10 --- join: amca (n=plump@as-bri-3-212.ozonline.com.au) joined #forth 01:06:40 --- quit: Raystm2 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 01:09:25 --- join: Raystm2 (n=Raystm2@adsl-68-95-254-38.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 02:10:21 --- join: amca_ (n=plump@as-bri-3-38.ozonline.com.au) joined #forth 02:29:43 --- quit: amca (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 04:04:03 --- quit: Raystm2 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 04:04:31 --- join: Raystm2 (n=Raystm2@adsl-68-95-251-114.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 04:49:02 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pete@0-1pool47-238.nas30.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 05:08:13 --- quit: Zymurgy (Remote closed the connection) 05:08:21 --- join: Zymurgy (i=zymurgy@cat.delfax.net) joined #forth 06:11:51 --- join: amca (n=plump@as-bri-4-1-183.ozonline.com.au) joined #forth 06:26:32 --- quit: amca ("Farewell") 06:35:07 --- quit: amca_ (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 06:46:56 --- join: virl (n=virl@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at) joined #forth 06:51:27 --- quit: snowrichard ("Leaving") 07:12:42 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@adsl-69-155-177-154.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net) joined #forth 07:18:01 --- quit: snowrichard ("Leaving") 07:39:48 --- quit: PoppaVic ("Pulls the pin...") 07:41:13 --- join: JasonWoof (n=jason@pdpc/supporter/student/Herkamire) joined #forth 07:41:13 --- mode: ChanServ set +o JasonWoof 07:41:35 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pete@0-1pool64-152.nas22.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 08:30:28 --- join: Quartus (n=trailer@CPE0001023f6e4f-CM013349902843.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 09:24:09 --- quit: PoppaVic ("Pulls the pin...") 09:47:23 --- join: Cheery (i=Henri@a81-197-22-81.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #forth 10:31:12 --- quit: Ray_work (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 10:31:58 --- join: Ray_work (n=Raystm2@adsl-68-89-124-38.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 12:26:31 --- join: snoopy_1711 (i=snoopy_1@84.58.165.69) joined #forth 12:26:44 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Nick collision from services.) 12:27:10 --- nick: snoopy_1711 -> Snoopy42 13:09:11 --- quit: Cheery ("Leaving") 13:58:25 --- join: Amanita_Virosa (n=jenni@adsl-69-154-178-250.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 14:27:11 --- quit: neceve ("Bye people, I'm leaving") 14:27:50 --- join: neceve (n=Clau@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 14:51:48 --- quit: Quartus (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 14:52:16 --- join: Quartus (n=trailer@CPE0001023f6e4f-CM013349902843.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 15:11:25 --- join: crc (i=crc@pool-70-110-157-102.phil.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 15:30:38 --- join: tathi (n=josh@pdpc/supporter/bronze/tathi) joined #forth 15:41:03 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@adsl-69-155-177-154.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net) joined #forth 15:42:15 --- quit: snowrichard (Client Quit) 15:47:40 --- quit: Amanita_Virosa ("Wewt") 16:06:38 --- quit: virl (Remote closed the connection) 16:28:20 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 18:39:08 --- quit: uiuiuiu (Remote closed the connection) 18:39:12 --- join: uiuiuiu (i=ian@dslb-084-056-225-016.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 19:29:23 --- quit: neceve ("Bye people, I'm leaving") 19:30:32 --- join: GoHst16 (n=GoHst16@12-208-98-237.client.insightBB.com) joined #forth 21:13:53 hi GoHst16 21:14:15 don't recognize your nick. you new in these parts? 21:16:28 --- join: amca (n=plump@as-bri-1-37.ozonline.com.au) joined #forth 21:20:26 hi amca 21:23:10 Hello 21:23:21 what's new? 21:23:23 How is your day today? 21:23:31 good 21:23:46 I made $50 working outside 21:24:05 Been mainly thinking about how I would want a concatenative language/asm to work 21:24:12 Cool 21:24:12 then beautiful weather for it 21:24:16 :) 21:24:25 Sunny but not too hot 21:24:38 right 21:24:49 I got a sunburn through the hole in my tshirt 21:24:58 lol 21:25:03 What temp there? 21:25:11 dunno 21:25:19 sixties I'd guess 21:26:18 that big oval on my back is suprisingly pink 21:26:56 Put some cream on it? 21:27:03 my laundry wasn't dry yet, so I was down to the stuff I really should get rid of 21:27:45 mmmm, that's a good idea 21:27:59 I've got an aloe plant 21:28:56 what are your ideas about concat/asm? 21:29:09 Apparently Vitamin E cream is good for sunburns 21:29:45 --- join: laurence (n=laurence@netblock-72-25-87-157.dslextreme.com) joined #forth 21:30:28 Well on what Ive decided on, Im going with a seperate locals stack, with the top 4 positions randomly accessable 21:30:35 sure, but I don't think you can do better than fresh alloe 21:30:44 Possibly 21:30:56 I dont know toop much about creams and lotions :/ 21:31:34 me neither. there isn't much that comes in a bottle that I'd ever want to rub on myself 21:31:58 Depends who is rubbing it on ;) 21:32:02 but somehow I don't mind rubbing plants on myself, so long as they don't smell bad 21:33:05 so you're designing some sort of VM? 21:33:12 yeah 21:33:57 So that I can code in the language *I* want. Computers are fast enough these days that what I wanna code, I wouldnt have to be down to the metal efficient with 21:34:41 right 21:35:04 What I dont like about Forth style so much is the lack of encapsulation. Forther's tend to like to have transparent interfaces, but I need black boxes so I dont have to worry about internal details except in themselves. 21:35:08 and even in the event where you do want it to run as fast as possible, you'll want to have an optomizer anyway 21:35:31 and afaik writing a good optomizer requires an intermediate format 21:36:11 Arent intermediate formats pretty much postfix anyway? 21:36:16 or prefix 21:36:18 do you feel you need the language to enforce your black-box rules? 21:36:31 dunno 21:37:10 I just figure that if I make my VM nice and simple, it wouldn't be too too hard to write an optomizing jit compiler for it 21:37:18 and then my code could run blazing fast 21:38:26 Well one Idea I had was to make the "instructions" for the VM basically just x86 asm macros that get processed and used in an arbitary assembler to convert or executable 21:39:30 But at the moment Im wondering if I want to be able to do "function level" interactivity like in Forth instead of "program level" interactivity like C 21:40:06 :) 21:40:09 I don't know quite what you mean by 'transparent interfaces', but I certainly prefer to encapsulate. 21:40:49 Well for instance the Forth string 21:41:32 you dont do "get-length" etc because it is always on stack 21:41:47 Not necessarily. But I get your meaning. 21:41:54 Im sort of thinking from an OO/ADT level. 21:42:08 I know it has more to do with programming styles than language restrictions 21:42:09 Ah. You want to add syntactic sugar. I thought you meant something else. 21:43:03 For instance Ive done a ADT of a "cell counted" string using locals that is similar to that. 21:43:39 I can't imagine why you'd want to use such a thing in practice. 21:44:15 Quartus: Such a thing as cell counted string? 21:44:47 No, I've used those. I mean a string facility in some way involving locals. 21:45:10 It is always possible, of course, to add complexity. There's no challenge in that. Removing it is where the trick lies. 21:46:32 So that I didnt have to use stack manipulation words, which though praagmatic, seem to address more what the VM has to do rather than expressing the problem. 21:47:03 Surely the expression of the problem happens at the application level? 21:47:33 If possible I want to have it at all levels. 21:48:09 --- part: laurence left #forth 21:48:33 And although essentially it is just numbers, you view it as names being juggled 21:48:42 "What really is the point of trying to teach anything to anybody?" This question seemed to provoke a murmur of sympathetic approval from up and down 21:48:46 the table. 21:48:49 Richard continued, "What I mean is that if you really want to 21:48:51 understand something, the best way is to try and explain it to someone else. That forces you to sort it out in your mind. And the more slow and dim-witted 21:48:55 your pupil, the more you have to break things down into more and more simple ideas. And that's really the essence of programming. By the time you've sorted out a complicated idea into little steps that even a stupid machine can deal with, you've learned something about it yourself. 21:49:10 hehe 21:49:11 True 21:50:12 Like Ive thought of possibly having the VM set up as a symbolic processing thing rather than number manipulation perhaps. Im pretty much juggling ideas at the moment trying to find which ones I wanna catch 21:51:08 cool 21:51:17 you feel like you're making decent progress? 21:51:42 amca: you're looking for a type system 21:52:26 slava: Well there would possibly be only one type - "names" 21:53:05 JasonWoof: Not yet. I dont think I will make proper progress until I have the asm up and running and I see where the deficiencies in it are 21:53:25 slava: Which sounds to me a lot like LISP 21:53:41 I see 21:54:51 I know I often don't feel like I'm making progress when I'm trying to make decisions on a big and abstract scale like that 21:55:39 Actually I think slava is right. The names are the types. The idea is that a number on the stack represents a particular object which acts in certain ways 21:56:38 JasonWoof: I think Im kinda setting up all the viable options in my mind so when I get to concrete, the possible answers are already cached 21:56:46 you can build a dynamic typing system on forth perfectly easily 21:57:49 amca: I see. I hope you end up with something good and concrete 21:58:57 This is an example of what I coded trying to have a more abstract Forth style: http://rafb.net/paste/results/4K7yfI55.html 22:00:09 for gforth 22:01:33 you can't free an ALLOT 22:02:05 that could should work if you do this: : char-array-create allocate ; 22:02:05 Typing mistake: should have been an ALLCATE 22:02:11 * amca nods 22:02:41 hmm, not quite. looks like the stack effect for allocate is: ( u -- a-addr ior ) 22:03:02 * amca shakes head 22:03:15 I really muffed that one 22:03:54 I think perhaps I was in the middle of changing it over from "static" to dynamic mem alloction 22:04:01 allocation 22:09:07 yeah 22:09:32 just my infernal debugger 22:09:39 --- quit: JasonWoof ("goodnight :)") 22:13:02 :) 23:00:08 --- quit: amca ("Farewell") 23:17:10 --- join: segher (n=segher@dslb-084-056-132-046.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 23:26:25 --- quit: segher_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/06.04.26