00:00:00 --- log: started forth/06.03.30
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07:04:12 <PoppaVic> I'm doing the ol' forest/trees gig today *sigh* What's happening elsewhere?
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07:40:02 <tathi> not much...
07:40:39 <tathi> looking at fovium, messing with some variations
07:41:32 <PoppaVic> yeah, I keep praying ;-)
07:42:05 <tathi> looks like you didn't e-mail me yesterday -- did you figure something out?
07:43:20 <PoppaVic> No, I just don't want to bug you until I know WHY I am bugging you.. Either I am mixing info, or badly confused. Either would mean you'd have to guess and puzzle-out my "meanings", and I prefer not to subject you to that.
07:43:58 <tathi> ah :)
07:44:35 <PoppaVic> I "think" I am prolly trying to mix 2 structs and such, and I'm trying to see where my head got shoved up my ass.
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07:51:06 <PoppaVic> tathi: btw, there is no sort of "bitfield" support for forthish "structs", is there?
07:52:27 <tathi> don't know
07:52:37 <tathi> I know people have written code to do structures in forth
07:52:49 <tathi> but I've never really looked at the various options
07:52:57 <PoppaVic> if I read assorted urls and gforth info right, they just think of 'types'
07:53:09 <PoppaVic> or "fields"
07:53:54 <PoppaVic> (implying a size, btw)
07:54:10 <tathi> hmm...yeah, looks like gforth's "field" word takes align and size
07:54:35 <tathi> size in bytes, apparently
07:54:36 <PoppaVic> I'm not even sure how to deal with 'align' under C..
07:56:13 <PoppaVic> btw, just for fun this AM, I tried "sizeof(enum)" - the screams were a hoot. You need an actual "instance"
07:56:28 <tathi> huh
07:56:49 <rehges> tathi: size in address units
07:57:05 <PoppaVic> chars
07:57:14 <rehges> no, address units.
07:57:23 <rehges> a char can be multiple au's too
07:57:29 <PoppaVic> bytes, they can whine about and scream octest, but it's bytes.
07:57:46 <PoppaVic> no, those would be wchar_t or some other mess.
07:58:23 <tathi> oh, address units, of course
07:58:39 <PoppaVic> Astronomical Units
07:59:07 <PoppaVic> meanwhile, alignment is Just Another Damned Issue.
07:59:07 <rehges> hehe
07:59:09 <tathi> er...wait
07:59:21 <tathi> is there some system where "byte" != "address unit" ?
07:59:59 <PoppaVic> I have no idea - they really scream about the word "byte" anymore, although most shut up when you say "nybble"
08:00:11 <tathi> I don't usually differentiate, though of course "char" can be different.
08:00:16 <PoppaVic> some mainframes use 9-bit "bytes"
08:01:01 <PoppaVic> otoh, almost all of us are in the "grounded in the 8080/z80" universe.
08:01:09 <tathi> not me.  bleh.
08:01:22 <rehges> heh no way -- 6502 for me, thank you
08:01:23 <PoppaVic> 6502 and whatnot would be the same
08:02:04 <PoppaVic> I always find it funny that "octet" is in, "byte" is out - and everyone knows what a "nybble" is.
08:02:07 <rehges> well i have some cpu's where bytes are 24 bit, does that count?
08:02:20 <PoppaVic> rehges: not to me.
08:02:34 <tathi> rehges: yeah, I just thought of that :)
08:02:43 <tathi> "address units" it is
08:02:54 <PoppaVic> If they want to call a register-width a "byte", it's not my prob.
08:03:08 <rehges> that is the original meaning of byte
08:03:25 <PoppaVic> tathi: that's great, if you ascertain the shit low and early
08:03:25 <rehges> nowadays, people mean "the smallest directly addressable unit of memory"
08:03:53 <PoppaVic> rehges: what about the infamous "alignment" and "padding" issues?
08:03:58 <tathi> I usually use "word" for register-width.
08:04:05 <tathi> though x86 makes that ambiguous :(
08:04:27 <PoppaVic> heh.. I stop mentioning "word" in the long-ago of FIG-Forth ;-)
08:04:58 <tathi> PoppaVic: sizeof(enum { A }) works in my C compiler
08:05:42 <PoppaVic> tathi: hmm, I tried sizeof(enum) - like would an int - and then declared an enum and used sizeof(foo) - which worked.
08:06:16 <PoppaVic> Interesting, though... They apparently do NOT consider it an integral-type
08:06:57 <PoppaVic> granted, I've seen there is an option to keep them compact
08:07:18 <tathi> yeah, gcc here wants the { } and at least one name, no matter how you use enum, AFAICT
08:07:43 <PoppaVic> yeah, I didn't try the "inline" like you, but that was my feeling.
08:08:28 <tathi> declaring a variable with "enum foo bar;" doesn't work, for instance.
08:10:38 <PoppaVic> right, I used enum {test} foo;
08:10:58 <PoppaVic> very,very strange
08:12:08 <PoppaVic> OK... I think my current "issue" is in trying to define an Object typedef w/o defining Type typdefs... I believe we may need "basic-units" before Objects.
08:12:10 <rehges> the size of an enum type is up to the compiler
08:12:31 <rehges> an enumerator ("enum valiue" is always an int though (either signed or unsigned, compiler's choice)
08:12:38 <PoppaVic> rehges: only in that gcc and such allow folks to compact them
08:12:55 <PoppaVic> try that again?
08:12:57 <rehges> the C standard allows that.
08:14:58 <PoppaVic> I was pretty sure the global-default was an int, but testing it seems quite prudent.
08:15:51 <rehges> older GCC's used an (unsigned) int always, sure
08:15:52 <PoppaVic> rehges: in particular when I like bitfields.
08:16:05 <rehges> enums can't be bitfields
08:16:35 <PoppaVic> oh my, I disagree. to both. It's just as painful as a rootcanal.
08:17:19 <rehges> well later...
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08:17:30 <PoppaVic> if you know the RANGE of the enum, the bitfield is possible.. Remember, though: enums are best used as "types" (like for args) that restrict ranges.
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08:52:30 <PoppaVic> hmm
08:52:43 <PoppaVic> maybe I've been approaching this poorly.
08:54:38 <PoppaVic> we tend to think of C as integrated with cpp... And, forths tend to ignore the idea of lexers and parsers (lex/yacc), right>
08:54:40 <PoppaVic> ?
08:56:30 <PoppaVic> We also, within forth: think of interp, compile (extend), and then 'words' and stacks.
08:56:35 <PoppaVic> hmmm....
08:57:27 <PoppaVic> we don't parse/lex remotely the same as C.
08:58:10 <PoppaVic> tathi: can you envision a way to forth/ficl and allow for "suffixes" ?
08:58:54 <PoppaVic> FICL already handles prefixes, and I'd bet gdorth has a limited set as well
08:59:00 <PoppaVic> gforth, two
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09:47:55 <tathi> PoppaVic: I don't see that suffixes would be a problem.
09:48:16 <tathi> if you set up a chain of actions to be taken on word-not-found, you can do pretty much whatever you want
09:48:22 <PoppaVic> tathi: can you envision a clean solution?
09:48:36 <PoppaVic> yes, and we should
09:48:55 <PoppaVic> worst-case should always be like gforths scream
09:49:05 <tathi> I don't see why you want suffixes.
09:49:51 <PoppaVic> I as thinking in terms of silly crap like: foo (foo and foo( - give or take a char or whatever
09:50:04 <PoppaVic> or think piping in the shell
09:50:28 <tathi> I still don't get it
09:50:55 <PoppaVic> word(word+word|word)|word
09:51:22 <tathi> this is forth.  things are whitespace delimited.  Period.
09:51:37 <PoppaVic> I begin to think there is a pattern, and punct-chars/digits might apply.. Or we need a lookup
09:51:47 <virl> well...
09:51:58 <PoppaVic> tathi: yes, and that would NOT be true with prefixes
09:52:43 <tathi> yeah, I have no interest in that.
09:52:59 <PoppaVic> the lexing and parsing still seems to be to the whore, is all.
09:53:18 <tathi> exactly.  stick with just splitting on whitespace, and you dodge all those issues :)
09:53:32 <PoppaVic> Yeah, gods... I'd love a std with sp or tab+ in there.
09:53:44 <tathi> huh?
09:54:55 <PoppaVic> I'm partial to lexing and lookup, but the longer I glare at it, the more I think "symbol" and "whitespace" and "contexts"
09:55:38 <PoppaVic> I just can't see hpw the lexer will ever be powerful/flexible
09:57:02 <PoppaVic> tathi: given proper whitespacing, I see no reason that that even generating C is beyond forths
09:57:36 <PoppaVic> or, "delimiting" - and the two are NOT THE SAME
09:59:48 <PoppaVic> I have to call it a day, I apologize... But it seems to me that every char is restricting the alternative-following more and more - and either building a 'word' or mode-changing or... I dunno.
09:59:55 <PoppaVic> stay well.
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10:00:05 <tathi> bah
10:09:56 <Quartus> Yes.
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12:34:25 <peterre> hi
12:41:54 <Quartus> Hi.
12:42:07 <peterre> Hello Quartus
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12:45:06 <Quartus> What's up?
12:45:40 <peterre> not a lot - just browsing around for channels of interest - I don't use Forth but have read quite a lot about it
12:46:06 <Quartus> To really catch the fever, you'd need to use it.
12:46:33 <peterre> When one gets on to namespaces - OOP - ADTs etc in Forth, there seems to be a wide variety of ways of dealing with them
12:47:26 <peterre> and a wide variety of Forths designed with such aspects in mind
12:48:08 <peterre> or rather Forth based languages, some of which are called Forth
12:48:32 <peterre> but what do I know... I don't use Forth. As you say, to catch the fever...
12:49:14 <peterre> Which implementions of Forth as popular? Which one do you use?
12:49:21 <Quartus> Well, Standard Forth handles namespaces in fairly straightforward fashion.
12:49:30 <Quartus> I work with Standard Forth systems, esp. my own for the Palm platform.
12:50:03 <peterre> Where can one download a Standard Forth implementation?
12:50:18 <Quartus> Gforth is a likely candidate.
12:50:36 <peterre> I'll take a look. Do you have the URL?
12:50:51 <Quartus> http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/gforth/
12:50:54 <peterre> thanks
12:51:21 <peterre> This is a Windows machine
12:51:38 <Quartus> There's a Win32 binary.
12:52:38 <peterre> yep, thanks. I've just found that.
12:54:01 <Quartus> Got to dash; chat again perhaps!
12:54:14 <peterre> ok - thanks for the info
12:54:27 <peterre> tty on another occasions perhaps
12:54:34 <peterre> -s
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21:24:45 <snowrichard> tathi?
21:25:04 <snowrichard> sorry I had gone out to dinner
21:28:01 <snowrichard> JasonWoof are you around? 
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21:40:00 <snowrichard> amca_ ? 
21:56:00 <amca_> snowrichard: Hi
21:56:10 <snowrichard> hello
21:56:31 <amca_> How goes it?
21:56:34 <snowrichard> getting some tea, brb
21:56:37 <amca_> k
21:59:40 <snowrichard> stomach upset
22:00:10 <amca_> ouch
22:01:25 <amca_> Anything exciting happening?
22:01:34 <snowrichard> ate dinner out, ate too much
22:01:52 <amca_> lol
22:01:56 <amca_> What were you eating?
22:01:58 <snowrichard> my uncles and aunts were in town 
22:02:08 <snowrichard> catfish, hush puppies bake potato
22:02:46 <amca_> yummy
22:03:09 <snowrichard> its a restaurant out in the middle of the swamp in Uncertain Texas
22:03:38 <snowrichard> spanish moss on the trees, next to the water
22:04:03 <snowrichard> some monster movies have been filmed on the lake
22:04:11 <amca_> hehe
22:04:19 <amca_> So you didnt get eaten then?
22:05:30 <snowrichard> just don't go in the water, there are crocs :) 
22:06:17 <amca_> ah
22:06:29 <amca_> Like in a good deal of northern parts here
22:08:19 <snowrichard> its about 20 miles from here
22:08:55 <amca_> Not too far then
22:10:47 <snowrichard> think I'll lie down for a while, catch you later.
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22:11:56 <amca_> cya
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23:35:48 <JasonWoof> man, I missed snowrichard again
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23:54:25 <snowrichard> hello
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