00:00:00 --- log: started forth/06.03.15
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00:39:24 <granv> \close
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00:49:04 <granv> \list
01:17:08 <JasonWoof> you may have better luck with the forward slash: /names /quit /part /join etc
01:27:49 <JasonWoof> 'night all
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03:54:14 <granv> Thanks JasonWoof
03:55:09 <amca> evening
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06:17:35 <virl> hi
06:17:44 <PoppaVic> howdy
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07:38:09 <JasonWoof> hi all :)
07:39:27 <virl> hi JasonWoof  what's going on?
07:39:32 <PoppaVic> hiya
07:40:02 <JasonWoof> just woke up, so currently not much :)
07:40:25 <JasonWoof> last night I covered my entire bed with my pile of cool stuff to hang on the walls
07:40:43 <JasonWoof> and then actually hung a bunch of stuff
07:44:53 <JasonWoof> granv: you're still here :)
07:45:20 <JasonWoof> granv: I wanted to say hello last night, but I know I was about to go to sleep.
07:49:02 <granv> JasonWoof - you don't seem to have slept for long - but yes, hello.
07:50:36 <JasonWoof> yeah :) I noticed. still groggy
07:51:10 <JasonWoof> granv: done any programming in forth?
07:53:06 <JasonWoof> I'm excited because last night I installed the first real web page where I did the server side scripting in forth
07:54:15 <JasonWoof> it's quite simple: it allows you to enter an amount of money, and choose credit or checking, then brings you to a different page for each choice
07:55:01 <JasonWoof> if credit it calculates what processing fee to add so I get the same amount of money. then it makes a paypal button.
07:55:11 <granv> A little. I've been a member of FigUk for many years till last year. Currently trying to set up Isforth-1.16b. 'Make' runs without error, but the next stage './extend' produces an error 'segmentation fault'. I've googled for possible causes but can't see what I've done wrong. Any ideas that could point me in the right direction?
07:55:55 <JasonWoof> hmmm
07:57:59 <JasonWoof> you running linux on x86?
07:58:25 <granv> Yes. It's a Dell 3100.
07:59:34 <tathi> hrm.
08:00:01 <tathi> there was a version that had a bug, but I thought it was the one before that.
08:00:30 <JasonWoof> granv: did you check your nasm version?
08:00:37 <tathi> argh.
08:00:41 <tathi> yeah, 1.16b has a bug.
08:00:57 <tathi> hang on a sec.
08:01:30 <granv> Nasm 0.98.39_1.3tex - and I installed it today
08:02:38 <JasonWoof> my forth page is very simple, but it has many of the elements of a more complex page: 1) handles a form 2) Creates output with valid html templates
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08:02:56 <JasonWoof> it doesn't use the database, but I have code for that too :)
08:03:28 <JasonWoof> sounds like you need a newer isforth :)
08:03:39 <JasonWoof> I bet tathi will surface with it shortly
08:03:59 <JasonWoof> he knows quite a bit about isforth because he ported it to PPC linux
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08:04:57 <tathi> Yeah, I'm looking.  I know the PPC version had a bug.
08:05:20 <tathi> I have a vague recollection that the x86 version did too, but I haven't found it yet.
08:06:28 <JasonWoof> this one sounds prety noticeable :)
08:07:28 <granv> I've got version 1.14b running on my laptop and I think I installed that from an rpm. I downloaded 1.16b a couple of days ago, so I assumed this was the latest version.
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08:08:00 <tathi> yeah, it is.  But we changed the way the ELF headers get generated, so that it would work on FreeBSD
08:08:21 <tathi> and the new code seems to be somewhat fragile.
08:08:29 <PoppaVic> ouchies
08:09:02 <JasonWoof> I (finally) like herkforths ELF header generation code
08:09:10 <tathi> %define _addr0 _addr1-0a0h      ;points to start of elf header
08:09:25 <tathi> this line in src/kernel/isforth.asm: try changing 0a0h to 080h
08:10:07 <tathi> PoppaVic: well, it should really generate its own ELF headers right from the start.
08:10:28 <tathi> But I440r has an irrational dislike of linker scripts, so it just gets whatever the linker provides.
08:10:29 <JasonWoof> I have a string with an ELF header in it. I copy that into my memory image, then change a few fields (file size, memory allotment, etc)
08:10:46 <PoppaVic> So far, I've never seen a decent ELF lib. And ELF is one of the few that treat DLL and plugins the same way.
08:10:56 <tathi> Which apparently isn't the same everywhere.
08:11:02 <PoppaVic> yeppers
08:11:38 <PoppaVic> Which is why, in my current hell, I think of "static, PIC, lib and plugin"
08:12:22 <PoppaVic> And, I often think it's issues with "terminology" and "assumptions"
08:12:35 <tathi> granv: sorry, we kind of talked over it: did you see my suggestion above?
08:12:51 <PoppaVic> (even static vs PIC bugs me)
08:13:04 <granv> Changing 0a0h to 080h?
08:13:08 <tathi> yeah
08:13:31 <granv> I'll try it and let you know - thanks very much guys.
08:13:34 <PoppaVic> my apologies for stepping in - carry on, I've a doc to thrash
08:18:07 <granv> tathi - thanks very much. Ran without complaint, saved and ./isforth now produces Mark's sign on message. Much appreciated. 
08:20:40 <tathi> good
08:20:54 <tathi> sorry it was flaky in the first place :)
08:22:05 <granv> It's nice to have a native forth to hand. Cheers
08:22:13 <granv> Off for my tea!
08:27:48 <JasonWoof> pip pip
09:01:13 <arke> hi
09:01:47 <JasonWoof> hi
09:02:07 <JasonWoof>  |.
09:03:16 <JasonWoof> to the death! ;)
09:07:17 <arke>       .|
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09:13:16 <arke> http://www.endofworld.net/
09:14:22 <Ray_work> arke what the heck are you doing to #c4th-ot?
09:25:56 <virl> what is he doing?
09:27:32 <Ray_work> hehe hi virl have to go back to work now, but arke mistakenly spammed the heck out of #c4th-ot
09:29:16 <virl> oh, thats perhaps funny
09:39:10 <JasonWoof>  |.
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10:10:37 <arke>       .|
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10:12:18 <JasonWoof>  |.
10:13:16 <JasonWoof> hehe
10:13:16 <arke>       .|
10:13:20 <JasonWoof>  | .
10:13:25 <JasonWoof> |.
10:13:30 <arke>        | .
10:13:31 <arke> oops
10:13:52 <virl> wtf?
10:13:56 <JasonWoof> hehe :)
10:14:01 <JasonWoof> virl: irc pong
10:14:18 <JasonWoof> I set up google ads to bring more people to my customers site
10:14:24 <JasonWoof> and they have been getting orders from it
10:14:25 <virl> oh..
10:14:30 <JasonWoof> but keep complaining that they don't see the ad
10:14:58 <JasonWoof> I find that funny
10:15:10 <JasonWoof> they got a order for over $200 from it the other day
10:15:13 <JasonWoof> it's obviously working
10:17:29 <tathi> ah. I wondered why the google ads.
10:23:31 <JasonWoof> no, I mean they're paying google to be in listings
10:23:52 <JasonWoof> ads on my wiki is probably a bad idea. I'm going to give it a little longer though
10:24:05 <JasonWoof> I just found no-www.org
10:24:11 <tathi> oh.
10:24:22 <tathi> yeah, they look kind of funny
10:28:03 <JasonWoof> I think it's pretty funny that they have little badges
10:28:14 <JasonWoof> and that people use them... that's how I found the site
10:28:36 <JasonWoof> I already do what they reccomend... but I'm not going to put a badge on my site
10:28:40 <JasonWoof> guess I'm just not into badges
10:29:32 <tathi> :)
10:30:15 <virl> how is herkforth going?
10:30:43 <Ray_work> We dont need no sinking badges!
10:30:51 <JasonWoof> virl: I started over in august
10:30:56 <Ray_work> stinkin' even
10:30:57 <JasonWoof> I'm calling the new thing Mist
10:31:03 <JasonWoof> although I'm thinking of renaming it
10:31:27 <JasonWoof> possibly to Fronds
10:31:31 <JasonWoof> or Ketoba
10:32:05 <virl> and how does it improve the useability?
10:32:08 <JasonWoof> it's going very well
10:32:25 <JasonWoof> It runs on more than just linux ppc
10:32:29 <JasonWoof> it has proper keyboard access
10:32:34 <JasonWoof> (herkforth just runs in the terminal)
10:32:43 <JasonWoof> it uses SDL for keyboard and graphics
10:33:01 <JasonWoof> so I can use keys such as ALT and find out when keys are released
10:33:08 <JasonWoof> I made a quasi-mode for executing commands from the editor
10:33:27 <JasonWoof> the editor is far from complete though... eg you cannot edit :)
10:34:37 <JasonWoof> the new interface will be much more consistant
10:34:51 <JasonWoof> and will hopefully require less knowledge ahead of time
10:34:53 <Ray_work> go! jason!
10:35:03 <JasonWoof> hopefully I can figure out how to make a good builtin help system
10:35:47 <JasonWoof> I want to make it so you can just type
10:35:52 <JasonWoof> no matter what
10:35:56 <JasonWoof> and what you type is saved
10:36:15 <JasonWoof> I'm a little torn about it though
10:36:23 <JasonWoof> I really like the stuff in The Humane Interface
10:36:31 <JasonWoof> but it had this crazy idea that everything is text
10:36:41 <JasonWoof> And I'm sorry, but that's simply not the case
10:36:48 <JasonWoof> my source code isn't even text
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12:26:41 <JasonWoof> nobody loves me
12:26:44 <JasonWoof> everybody hates me
12:26:50 <JasonWoof> think I'll go eat worms
12:26:54 <virl> ehm, why?
12:27:14 <JasonWoof> la la la dum dum deedum
12:27:34 <virl> are you bored?
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12:45:22 <JasonWoof> heh. guess so
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15:04:47 <crc> hello everyone
15:04:57 <slava> hi
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18:46:34 <amca> Gday
18:51:19 <JasonWoof> hi
18:51:32 <amca> how are ye today?
18:51:38 <JasonWoof> eh
18:51:51 <JasonWoof> I need some good solid food
18:51:54 <JasonWoof> but we don't have any
18:52:14 <amca> :( bummer
18:56:07 <amca> What are you doing to cope with the lack of food instead/
18:56:08 <amca> ?
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19:07:56 <JasonWoof> eating crap of course :)
19:08:29 <amca> lol
19:12:04 <amca> is event based programming a methodology suitable for forth?
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19:48:46 <JasonWoof> I don't really understand what event based programing is
19:48:57 <JasonWoof> I could probably do it... but I'm not clear on what the distiction is
19:49:36 <JasonWoof> my guess is it's a system where the main loop is not in your apps
19:50:02 <JasonWoof> but in some kind of tasker that watches events and data paths and gives time to the functions/objects/apps that have events/data waiting
19:50:27 <JasonWoof> if that's at all accurate then I'd think forth would be good
19:50:53 <JasonWoof> you might have to be able to switch between sets of stacks to do it
19:50:56 <JasonWoof> nah
19:57:31 <amca> My idea of it would be that all input is a type of event, and different types of events are handles by different words
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19:58:03 <amca> that way you can just add new events to a list rather than playing with a large case statement or such
19:58:24 <Raystm2> hey wait I didn't know ya'll were here, /me catching up.
19:58:42 <amca> hehe
20:34:13 <JasonWoof> amca: yeah, that's basically how I'm organizing my major forth project
20:34:45 <JasonWoof> what should I call my humane environment with builting forth-like colored source editor?
20:34:49 <JasonWoof> 1) Mist
20:34:49 <JasonWoof> 2) Ketoba
20:34:54 <JasonWoof> 3) Fronds
20:35:09 <JasonWoof> the latter two have the advantage of having the .org domain available
20:35:12 <amca> is that your major forth project?
20:35:14 <JasonWoof> the last has .com as well
20:35:19 <JasonWoof> yes
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20:35:40 <JasonWoof> you can't edit yet though, so I haven't bothered releasing it
20:35:46 <amca> i wouldnt do mist cause there is a Mistyforth out there and it would make things a little confusuing. At least for me anyway :)
20:35:53 <JasonWoof> I have to cross-compile the memory image from herkforth which is ppc specific
20:36:04 <JasonWoof> (although herkforth does run on x86 linux with the help of qemu)
20:36:22 <amca> 3) is less exotic a name, so you should decide if you want it to sound exotic or comfortable
20:36:27 <JasonWoof> yeah, I've been calling it mist for a while, but I'm seriously thinking of changing it
20:36:37 <Raystm2> forthsight, forthescew,  
20:36:40 <JasonWoof> linux is a pretty weird word
20:36:49 <JasonWoof> I don't want "forth" in the name
20:37:01 <Raystm2> okay for the scew :)
20:37:17 <Raystm2> sorry couldnt resist.
20:37:34 <JasonWoof> here's my reasoning on that: 1) forth enthousiasts will find out about it anyway  2) people who are not forth enthousiasts will either not know what it means or have weird negative assosiations with it
20:37:50 <JasonWoof> any thoughts on Ketoba vs Fronds
20:37:52 <JasonWoof> ?
20:38:48 <amca> well do you want the name to sound exotic or comfortable?
20:39:20 <Raystm2> fronds has sound to it.
20:39:42 <Raystm2> but ketoba has great percussssssion
20:40:00 <amca> A warm sound to my ears for fronds. i agree wirth Ray  
20:40:52 <Raystm2> back of the mouth -- then the tongue gets to hit the pallet, then the lips get to pop out the b.
20:41:13 <Raystm2> very natural.
20:41:17 <amca> ketoba sounds pacific islander like
20:41:39 <amca> fronds makes me think of large relaxing banana leaves shading me
20:42:06 <Raystm2> "fronds" "what? Friends" "No Fronds"
20:42:24 <amca> you and I can be fronds together1
20:42:39 <Raystm2> Franz? no fronds you know Palm fronds.
20:43:06 <Raystm2> but Katoba foo, now thats foo.
20:43:21 <Raystm2> fronds foo, that's just silly.
20:43:25 <amca> Katoba 8is* more distinctive. kinda sticks out htere
20:43:59 <Raystm2> katoba baz follows katoba foo and katoba bar.
20:44:26 <Raystm2> fonds baz is hard to say.
20:44:35 <Raystm2> fronds baz even.
20:44:50 <Raystm2> sounds like Bang BOOM to the moon Alice.
20:45:23 <Raystm2> sounds like friends bath.
20:46:13 <amca> sounds like lele or whatever her name was from 5th element
20:46:21 <JasonWoof> hehe
20:46:49 <JasonWoof> I guess my only trouble with Fronds is that I think its hard for me to say clearly
20:47:24 <JasonWoof> but it is much easier to remember and spell
20:47:58 <JasonWoof> and is probably the only one syllable domain name left in the universe
20:48:08 <Raystm2> fronds katoba katoba fronds fronds katoba katoba fronds.
20:48:25 <JasonWoof> fronds is more loveable right?
20:48:37 * amca nods
20:48:51 <JasonWoof> oh, the only trouble with the palm frond filled images is that palm fronds are technically not fronds
20:48:53 <Raystm2> hehe your editor could produce Fronds listz oops lists.
20:49:33 <JasonWoof> thank you for discussing this with me
20:49:41 <JasonWoof> it's hard to get feedback about this
20:50:17 <JasonWoof> it's hard for me to tell if people just aren't interested, or if they are close to equally good
20:50:22 <Raystm2> fronds but with new and improved katoba.
20:50:58 <amca> hehe
20:51:07 <JasonWoof> ketoba has two clear advantages: 1) it can be googled 2) ketoba.com is available
20:51:14 <amca> JasonWoof: Why are palm fronds not fronds?
20:51:44 <JasonWoof> but a major con: it is hard to spell. case in point Raystm2 has been spelling it s/e/a/
20:52:19 <Raystm2> shet ketoba?
20:52:24 <amca> a is a more natural sound than e i think
20:52:27 <JasonWoof> wikipedia: A frond is the leaf structure of a fern. The term is colloquially applied to the leaves of palms, cycads, and other plants with
20:52:31 <JasonWoof> pinnately compound leaves. A significant difference is that, unlike the leaves of the latter, fern fronds bear the reproductive
20:52:33 <JasonWoof> structures (spore-bearing structures) of the sporophyte plant.
20:52:36 <amca> ah
20:53:10 <JasonWoof> yeah, but I like the sound better keh-TOE-buh
20:53:19 <Raystm2> frond pond is where you get all of the up to date code flowing in from the massive user base.
20:53:29 <JasonWoof> hehe
20:53:58 <Raystm2> fern is a good symbol.
20:53:58 <JasonWoof> I was considering the name "Frond" before, but chose mist instead
20:53:59 <Raystm2> green
20:54:01 <Raystm2> life.
20:54:12 <amca> keh-TOE-buh oc-TOE-buh
20:54:23 <JasonWoof> frond.org is not available though, and I didn't like the sound of frondos.org
20:54:47 <JasonWoof> frondos has lots of results in google from various languages
20:54:48 <Raystm2> frondos was bilbo bagins disk os
20:55:08 <JasonWoof> I can't find a translation though. it may be slang or a popular mispelling
20:55:16 <amca> lol
20:55:33 <JasonWoof> october?
20:55:38 <Raystm2> Were having a ketoba october!!
20:55:52 <Raystm2> and you know what that means.
20:57:02 <Raystm2> frondos updates for everybody. written in mist, frond provides the kind of ketoba you just have to have to be a haver, and it alllll happens this october fest.
20:58:05 <amca> lol
20:58:24 <Raystm2> getoba it.
21:00:04 <Raystm2> ketoba has good tohand typing
21:00:22 <Raystm2> k right e left more of the same
21:00:28 <Raystm2> noooo the t
21:00:39 <Raystm2> but it rolls that way off the second fiinger onto the first
21:00:58 <Raystm2> the o easy to find and so is the b and the a
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21:01:06 <Raystm2> fronds now thats a word
21:01:30 <Raystm2> fronds fronds fronds fronds 2 l 2 r 2 l 
21:01:43 <Raystm2> stabing motions
21:02:21 <Raystm2> o onto the first finger n is good and last two keys ds rigth there.
21:02:34 <Raystm2> it's got typeability what ever that is.
21:02:52 <JasonWoof> fronds.org registered
21:03:00 <Raystm2> nice
21:03:22 <JasonWoof> and it's after midnight
21:03:40 <Raystm2> does your pumkin poof?
21:04:18 <Raystm2> we have the solution for pesky midnight pumkin poof at fronds.org.
21:04:51 <JasonWoof> in dvorak fronds is all right hand except the o
21:05:12 <Raystm2> ya o under the what mid finger?
21:05:28 <JasonWoof> not suprising though, most consonants are on the right
21:05:34 <JasonWoof> no, e of course
21:05:42 <Raystm2> oh
21:05:57 <Raystm2> ring
21:06:00 <Raystm2> doh!
21:06:05 <JasonWoof> ring?
21:06:16 <Raystm2> ya o is under the ring finger of the left hand.
21:06:34 <JasonWoof> yep
21:07:38 <JasonWoof> lol, I marked an hour on my todo list for calling comcast
21:07:46 <JasonWoof> You'd think I'd learn
21:09:02 <JasonWoof> feels good to have that done with though
21:09:03 <JasonWoof> whew
21:09:29 <JasonWoof> and mtools seem to work beautifully for transferring audio to me player
21:09:34 <Raystm2> ya nice job that
21:09:56 * Raystm2 picks up 12string
21:10:20 <JasonWoof> whew
21:10:21 <JasonWoof> man
21:10:27 <JasonWoof> did crap I didn't want to today
21:10:29 <JasonWoof> done!
21:10:42 <JasonWoof> billed two clients
21:11:08 <amca> yay1
21:11:31 <JasonWoof> I got to run half a keyboard under hot water though :)
21:11:47 <amca> huh? how so?
21:11:50 <JasonWoof> someone spilled a very gooey beverage on the downstairs keyboard a few weeks ago
21:11:57 <amca> ah
21:12:03 <amca> I need to do that to mine :)
21:12:12 <amca> i should do it tonight
21:12:27 <JasonWoof> I removed the screws on the back and the whole front pannel came right off. it had all they keys, all the goo, and no electronics at all
21:12:35 <JasonWoof> so I just blanted it with hot water for a while
21:13:16 <amca> As long as you dry it out, it would be okay to stick a whole kbd under the hot water wouldnt it?
21:13:33 <amca> and then let it dry upside down
21:13:51 <amca> or right way up
21:17:09 <amca> #stacks would mean "number of stacks" wouldnt it?
21:31:44 <JasonWoof> wow, I said "blanted"
21:32:06 <JasonWoof> meant "blasted"
21:32:18 <JasonWoof> no, usually electronics don't work after getting wet
21:32:44 <JasonWoof> amca: I use it that way in forth
21:32:59 <JasonWoof> amca: in many languages it would be a comment
21:33:22 * amca nods
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23:36:13 <LOOP-HOG> hi
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