00:00:00 --- log: started forth/06.03.10
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09:55:36 <tathi> hi
09:57:39 <tathi> foxchip: what are you up to these days?
10:00:43 <thinfu> foxchip = jef fox ?
10:00:50 <thinfu> jeff*
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10:22:31 <slava> hi
10:30:25 <Quartus> hi slava
10:41:52 <virl> when foxchip would be really THE jeff fox it would be an interesting conversation
10:42:26 <virl> hi slava, hi Quartus 
10:42:39 <virl> slava, how is factor going?
10:46:39 <slava> i'm working on some mac os (cocoa) bindings
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12:07:42 <virl> boring
12:07:49 <PoppaVic> daily
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12:08:40 <virl> I ask myself, what's the latest idea of chuck?
12:11:19 <PoppaVic> I dunno' - Chuck seems to have wandered off (mumbling) in the woods.
12:12:51 <virl> seems like he goes for dying in the woods
12:13:16 <PoppaVic> animals crawling off to die alone?
12:15:15 <virl> perhaps..
12:17:34 <PoppaVic> I suppose it makes a huge diff when you've innumerable resources and newbies to exploit.
12:21:41 <PoppaVic> virl: that would tend (also) to explain his feeling of "write it new for ever job and platform"
12:31:23 <virl> well his approach on that is somehow too much extrem. I mean writing a program for only a specific pc for example and when changing for example the graphics card of you need to rewrite it. well, that's a really an unuseable way of doing it.
12:32:14 <PoppaVic> I can see it for devices, of course.
12:34:49 <virl> well, for embedded devices or systems with no modular hardware like game consoles, it has it's sense but for systems like a pc it's simply silly.
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12:35:10 <PoppaVic> I tend to agree
12:35:21 <PoppaVic> I guess it's "audience"
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12:38:51 <virl> the other part is the todays nightmare, having two or more layers of abstraction and every layer abstract the changes of the previous layer.
12:39:12 <PoppaVic> heh.. Welcome to my world.
12:39:45 <PoppaVic> I'm thinking a LOT about vtables and "extensible-vtables"
12:40:07 <virl> vtables, so vtables like C++ vtables?
12:40:42 <PoppaVic> not precisely, but close. Func-ptr "tables" or lists-of, etc
12:41:21 <virl> and what are your thoughts about them?
12:41:35 <PoppaVic> I've concluded that, I need a complete "shell" for more goals, and extensibility at least like Forthish
12:42:11 <PoppaVic> virl: not sure... Most of "those interested" are playing the "I'm sorry, I was too busy" card for the last month.
12:43:19 <PoppaVic> I know funcptrs add a "layer" of iritation, and slow shit a TOUCH - but I doubt they affect it seriously.
12:44:32 <PoppaVic> If I had to pick a "oh, shit" issue it'd be cpp and C funcs maybe getting too many args to be readable/comfortable.
12:45:48 <PoppaVic> Somehow, "immediates" are far more powerful/useful., But C and forth seem to get a trifle silly about anything between.
12:46:02 <PoppaVic> anyway.. gotta' have dinner... Back soon.
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13:10:59 <kitsune> Hi,  I saw a question about Chuck earlier.  Chuck is busy as CTO of Intelasys doing circuit designs and writing code.  
13:11:48 <kitsune> Chuck isn't responsible for releasing company information, neither am I.  We have marketing and sales people.  But Chuck is busy on the research and development side of things.
13:12:19 <kitsune> I was logged on as foxchip earlier, yes, Jeff A. Fox, UltraTechnology, Intelasys etc.
13:12:55 <kitsune> Chuck moved another 1000 feet up the mountain this year, past where the snowplow stop.
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13:31:20 <JasonWoof> kitsune: what OS do you use for everyday life?
13:33:07 <JasonWoof> kitsune: many many thanks for all your research, ideas and for your work in pulling together a huge body of knowledge on your website.
13:35:08 <kitsune> windows xp, I have to use a bunch of ms software to be compatible with people's software at work.  I have xp, media edition on a tower and xp on a laptop.
13:35:39 <kitsune> I use the tower to convert the videos to digital formats.
13:36:58 <kitsune> I am testing using google video for the videos at ut.  It seems to solve the bandwidth problems, they seem to have unlimited bandwidth at google as you would expect so I can play the dvd quality video without delay on this high speed line at work.
13:37:22 <JasonWoof> heh :)
13:37:39 <kitsune> I have a few video files setup for google video including John's presentation from Forth day 05, more to come
13:38:42 <kitsune> I my install Linux on an older laptop or tower to become more familiar with it.  I used to use Unix long ago...
13:40:01 <JasonWoof> wow, I didn't know google hosted videos
13:40:33 <kitsune> I use stand-alone colorforth as an os when running okad2 stand-alone or I can run okad2 in colorforth over windows.  I do a lot of other things in windows including using swiftforth for ans forth programs.  But Michael runs the same programs under gforth in Linux and another person in the group uses them on a mac.
13:41:11 <kitsune> Google has a new video service that is as one might expect, popular.  They have already collected lots and lots of video.
13:41:17 <JasonWoof> I use linux. For a long time I thought everybody who was cool should use linux. Then I realized that getting linux going is really a time sink
13:41:36 <JasonWoof> and for some people windows just doesn't get in the way that much
13:42:19 <JasonWoof> yeah
13:42:30 <JasonWoof> google can make a new site and have it be rediculously popular in a week
13:43:15 <kitsune> Like many people, I don't like windows.  And there are some programs that I enjoy playing with, but I don't much 'windows' programming.  I do ANS Forth in windows, but it is mostly just portable ANS Forth programs that don't use the windows specific calls.
13:43:47 <kitsune> I have done windows programming and I didn't like it much.  I had to do the gui and gui emulation at iTV under windows.  The windows part was always the most work.
13:44:32 <kitsune> I joked that I usually could write the GUI functions in 40S faster than I could find the windows function calls that I need to use to emulate our GUI functions in windows.
13:44:53 <JasonWoof> yeah
13:44:58 <JasonWoof> I do my GUI stuff with SDL
13:45:04 <kitsune> And I would use as much abstraction as I could if I had to deal with programming windows functions in windows.
13:45:14 <JasonWoof> which is a dirt simple graphics api. basically just provides access to a frame buffer
13:45:35 <JasonWoof> plus a blit routine and a filled rectangle.
13:45:51 <kitsune> And of course Chuck likes to manipulate a frame buffer.
13:46:03 <JasonWoof> yeah
13:46:14 <kitsune> I modeled all my GUI on smalltalk which has some logical bitblit primitives.  I like it simple.
13:46:39 <JasonWoof> my new forth system uses SDL for output and keyboard control. I tested an early version on windows and it ran quite well once we figured out the compiler flags
13:46:52 <JasonWoof> me too
13:47:02 <kitsune> But I didn't have all the advanced stuff that one has in fully developed graphic enviroments.   I had what I needed.
13:47:20 <JasonWoof> right
13:47:44 <JasonWoof> eg you can do without a button widgit with the phrase "press Q to quit"
13:47:58 <kitsune> I haven't played with using Forth as a scripting language for a graphics package like OpenGL, but I did that sort of thing
13:49:02 <JasonWoof> me neither. some day some day :)
13:50:04 <JasonWoof> I recently started a project in gforth (a framework for doing html forms processing and such via CGI)
13:50:47 <JasonWoof> I found myself making a (incresingly large) file of new words and altered standard words.
13:51:03 <JasonWoof> words that I think are generally useful to me
13:51:12 <JasonWoof> And I'd like the forth I use to come standard with
13:51:43 <JasonWoof> eg I changed FOR so it loops the number of times you tell it to:   : for ( x -- ) \ loop x times
13:52:28 <JasonWoof> do you have such a file that you use for many project?
13:53:00 <JasonWoof> I'm curious how other people modify the ans forth invironment to suit themselves and/or their project
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14:01:18 <JasonWoof> cool, I just watched the 1993 interview with chuck from google video
14:01:46 <JasonWoof> I don't recall chuck talking about a 7 key keyboard before
14:01:55 <JasonWoof> that would be a chorded keyboard then right?
14:02:10 <JasonWoof> I've been wanting to try one of those for years
14:02:40 <JasonWoof> I even wrote a hack allowing you to use 7 keys on the keyboard as a chorded keyboard
14:02:54 <JasonWoof> unfortunately it only ran on the linux console (not through X)
14:04:20 <JasonWoof> tathi (who friquents this channel) as making one
14:04:51 <JasonWoof> he bought a little USB device with i/o pins
14:05:31 <JasonWoof> when you plug it into your computer it downloads binary code from your computer for it's embedded proccessor, then runs it
14:05:56 <JasonWoof> he's working on how to write code for it that will teach it to act like a USB keyboard
14:06:38 <JasonWoof> I would very much like to play with chorded keyboards some more
14:06:54 <JasonWoof> I only got up to about 1 character per seccond in my old experiments
14:14:46 <kitsune> yes, Chuck had several wierd keyboards back in the days when he was experimenting with key "chords"
14:15:59 <kitsune> He had rock with 3 keys glued to it, but it had too high a coefficient of heat and pulled too much heat for his hand and caused cramping.  he made a wooden one.  He wore out a bunch of switches and keypads and keyboards back then.
14:16:15 <kitsune> He has even talked about have a 27 key keyboard made for colorforth. ;-)
14:17:04 <kitsune> Since OK had a tiny GUI based on 8 possible key menu choices (timeout was #8) and a jump table he really only needed 3 keys.
14:17:38 <kitsune> But the interface is really cursor and a few function keys.   It changed from that in ok to more menus in okad2 and of course 
14:18:17 <kitsune> there was a command line added in colorforth/okad2   while in ok/colorforth ok was the os with they key input and colorforth was just a scripting language
14:19:29 <kitsune> my fingers picked up the colorforth quasi-dvorak keyboard layout pretty quickly.  I am not quite as fast as I am with qwerty but I do notice that it is easy on my fingers.
14:19:43 <kitsune> Chorded keyboards would be quite a change for me.
14:20:06 <kitsune> I also experimented with a mouse with two buttons, and soft keys.  Ok, for many things, but not word processing....
14:20:38 <kitsune> I hope to get away from keyboards and do more with voice io.
14:46:08 <thinfu> how would voice commands work?  without being awkard heh
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14:59:15 <kitsune> got to go, later
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15:01:24 <arke> jeff fox?
15:01:36 <arke> phht, he shoulda just kept theFox
15:01:41 <arke> easier to identify him that way :)
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15:45:07 <thinfu> virl: foxchip really was jeff fox
15:46:19 <thinfu> arke: yeah, thefox is better than foxchip, cuz thats just copying chipchuck's nick!
15:48:18 <arke> foxchip is fine
15:48:26 <arke> but that kitsune, was jeff fox too right?
15:48:27 <thinfu> lies!
15:48:31 <thinfu> yes
15:53:48 <tathi> heh.
15:54:17 <arke> lalala
15:54:19 <arke> hmm
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16:48:39 <slava> hi
16:50:35 <arke> hi
16:50:45 <slava> i thought you switched to delphi?
16:51:48 <arke> oh I am so sorry
16:52:07 <arke> does my language of choice, when it is not forth, not make me eligible for idling in this channel?
16:52:14 <arke> even if it interests me?
16:52:23 <arke> in tat case, I am sorry to have wasted your precious fucking time
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16:56:00 <crc> hi slava
16:57:17 <saon> hrmm, that was random
16:57:36 * saon unidles at last
17:03:08 <slava> hi crc
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17:25:22 <Quartus> How odd.
17:29:28 <virl> well, somehow it was, but I understand that he got pissed off.
17:37:12 <Quartus> over "i thought you switch to delphi?'  ?
17:38:44 <virl> probably...
17:40:45 <virl> could it be that there is a hate relationship between slava and arke?
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18:50:16 <thinfu> oh man, the irony
18:54:26 <thinfu> since arke is more of a forther than most people in the chan
18:59:17 <slava> maybe he's ashamed of his delphi fetish :)
18:59:56 <thinfu> i know i'm ashamed of using php for my websites
19:00:00 <thinfu> instead of forth
19:00:02 <thinfu> :~(
19:00:21 <slava> why not use forth then?
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19:01:28 <thinfu> good question, mostly a time issue
19:01:47 <arke> oops, this channel is still on autojoin...
19:02:15 <arke> might as well stay
19:02:48 <thinfu> hmm, i probably should take the time anyways to do the website stuff in forth
19:03:14 <thinfu> then any development i do i can share
19:03:15 <thinfu> and extend
19:05:47 <arke> thinfu: which website?
19:06:03 <thinfu> combine my two main projects, web & forth, and get more done on forth
19:06:18 <thinfu> arke: sekret!
19:06:32 <thinfu> well actually i just don't have enough up that i want to share it yet ;P
19:06:39 <arke> ;)
19:06:39 <thinfu> <- ashamed
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