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15:13:39 <reuben> is there a way to get dump to store the text output in memory instead of sending it to the screen?
15:19:11 <Raystm2> Hi reuben. What forth are you using?
15:23:24 <reuben> Raystm2: I am using gforth, but I am also interested in a portable solution
15:24:02 <Raystm2> I just looked at the "see" output of the word 'dump' in gforth.
15:25:19 <Quiznos> reuben write your own if you havent, pot be dammned!
15:25:32 <Raystm2> I think you have to redefine dump to use memory instead of the useraddress <52> ( on my machine, might be same for you, maybe not, i don't know ) which I think is the addres of the display.
15:26:26 <Raystm2> But the nice thing is... You can use 'see' to see what you need to change to make your new dump.
15:26:32 <reuben> quiznos: i think that is good advice
15:26:56 <reuben> raystm2: thanks for the hints, this is going to take some thought on my part
15:27:15 <Raystm2> reuben: that's the fun part. :)
15:27:23 <Raystm2> The part I like best.
15:27:37 <reuben> i am a free unix weenie.. spoiled on files and pipes
15:27:48 <Raystm2> hehe 
15:27:59 <Quiznos> of course it is good advice
15:28:00 <Quiznos> :)
15:28:03 <Raystm2> start with an easy portion, i suppose.
15:28:08 <Quiznos> lol
15:28:21 <Quiznos> start with the eforth that was ported to linux
15:28:39 <Quiznos> i want a forth-box like a lisp-machine
15:28:48 <Quiznos> all forth, all the time
15:28:52 <Raystm2> write a dump that just displays one mem-word on the display , then see if you can store it in mem, then build on that.
15:29:10 <Quiznos> types be damned
15:29:12 <Quiznos> heh
15:29:25 <Raystm2> Quiznos: and pipes as well, :)
15:29:28 * reuben sits on a big pile of wheels
15:29:32 <Quiznos> or
15:29:45 <Quiznos> not and or == if thffpt then ;
15:30:06 <Raystm2> reuben: don't say that. I'm a warehouse manager for a caster company. All your wheels are belong to me.
15:30:28 <Quiznos> i wanna port linux to forth, and i'm planning/working on the memory management atm
15:30:54 <Raystm2> No kidding? what a project. Here's to your success.
15:31:03 <Quiznos> tankers
15:31:09 <Raystm2> welcomes
15:31:10 <_crc> in retro, I'd just revector emit, but gforth doesn't seem to use that
15:31:16 <Quiznos> speech of figero.
15:32:37 <reuben> Raystm2: okay buddy, but i am going to reinvent every last one of them
15:32:45 <Raystm2> hehehe
15:33:44 <Raystm2> _crc: /me thinks your vectoring system is very cool. It gets deeper every time i think about it.
15:34:20 <Raystm2> much more powerfull then just redefining and then empting the dictionary.
15:34:42 <Raystm2> I keep seeing Object orientation in it.
15:35:01 <reuben> i am working on forth code to use fat12 filesystems (windows floppy disks)
15:35:54 <Raystm2> _crc: I keep seeing the ability to do event-driven programming with the vector and the local name spaces.
15:36:08 <Raystm2> reuben: how is that coming?
15:37:55 <reuben> going well so far.  parsed out the boot sector and the fat structures
15:38:21 <reuben> i was thinking about making a standalone forth with filesystem code built in
15:38:55 <Raystm2> Very cool, I wish you great luck with the project.
15:39:09 <reuben> i would put extensions in the filesystem, such as an assembler
15:39:17 <reuben> i am very open to just tweaking a pre-existing forth
15:39:58 <reuben> i aim to make it easy to bootstrap and rebuild, with no software dependencies
15:40:02 <Raystm2> Are you aware of _crc's retroForth?
15:40:15 <reuben> yes
15:40:53 <reuben> if i understand correctly, retroforth is standalone, but not self-hosting
15:41:11 <_crc> right
15:41:38 <Raystm2> reuben: you could change all that :)
15:42:00 <reuben> raystm2: maybe i better write my own dump first
15:42:06 <Raystm2> ya :)
15:43:02 <_crc> Albert van der Horst did a self hosting version of one of the 7.x releases of retro, but he never sent me the code
15:43:14 <Raystm2> Really?
15:43:20 <_crc> yes
15:43:22 <Raystm2> I didn't know that.
15:43:36 <reuben> my fat12 code is currently verbose with debugging messages
15:43:53 <Raystm2> Albert is profound.
15:43:56 <reuben> i am thinking of a way to change verbosity, depending on a variable
15:44:05 <Raystm2> cool.
15:44:31 <reuben> that is why i wanted to dump to a string.. i could just send strings to a word that only displays them if the variable is non-zero
15:44:49 <Raystm2> ah
15:45:07 <_crc> Raystm2: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.forth/browse_thread/thread/6cd177c07f4a0a3c/64db4b32fc8570e8
15:45:12 <reuben> for now i'll just make a separate word that conditionally does the dump word
15:45:25 <Raystm2> _crc Thanks 
15:45:37 <reuben> do you think i am going about it all wrong?
15:45:43 <Raystm2> great idea reuben, 
15:45:43 <_crc> no
15:45:57 <Raystm2> not wrong, great first step
15:46:20 <reuben> if i understand correctly, appending to a string is no easier in forth than in c
15:46:29 <_crc> nope
15:47:52 <reuben> i could do my own buffer management so i could append \n to a string, or i could make a third word that conditionally prints \n
15:48:13 <reuben> i am going to end up with a lot of words that conditionally use other words
15:50:34 <Raystm2> :)
15:51:02 <Raystm2> _crc Albert says his friend Coos Haas was doing such work, more then a year ago. 
15:51:07 <Raystm2> I wonder what came of it.
15:51:27 <_crc> I have the mini assembler
15:51:30 <_crc> that works great
15:51:37 <reuben> in C, i would just make my own buffer management and use asprintf() or snprintf() when things got fancy
15:51:38 <Raystm2> oh that's great.
15:51:46 <Raystm2> ciasdis?
15:52:01 <_crc> a subset of that, yes
15:52:04 <reuben> i have seen other people do just that.. sending strings to a function, which conditionally displays them
15:52:16 <reuben> is there a normal way to do this in forth?
15:52:43 <Raystm2> that question is beyound my talent to answer, anybody else?
15:52:50 <_crc> conditionally displaying a string?
15:53:12 <Raystm2> sounds like keeping track of state to me.
15:53:18 <reuben> fancy format a string with a minimum of manual memory management, and conditionally display it
15:53:23 <_crc> hmm
15:53:35 <_crc> forths typically lack string formatting ala C
15:53:58 <reuben> so if i made an asprintf forth word, i would be a hero?  hehe ;)
15:54:08 <Raystm2> I thing you put your data ( string, what have you ) in a buffer and do as you will to it.
15:54:13 <Raystm2> thing=think
15:54:20 <_crc> reuben: it'd be useful
15:54:44 * Raystm2 doesn't remember asprintf()
15:54:58 * Raystm2 googles
15:55:22 <reuben> it dynamically allocates enough memory, and stores the formatted string in that memory
15:55:44 <Raystm2> very cool.
15:55:54 <reuben> you give it a place to store a pointer to that memory, a formatting string, and some arguments, and then you remember to free the result
15:56:03 <Raystm2> remember to release the memory when your done with it. there is no GC. :)
15:56:20 <Raystm2> right okay :)
15:56:33 <reuben> i guess i'll just go with the word overload approach
15:56:55 <reuben> maybe overload is an overloaded term.. word proliferation then
15:57:06 <_crc> Raystm2: with a word like 'later' it's trivial
15:57:24 <Quiznos> what we need, is a word that takes an addr and returns a ptr to that addr, in essence (in c) adding indirection to a var to build ptrs to ptrs
15:57:26 * Raystm2 is a great fan of push push swap pop pop.
15:57:28 <_crc> my 'zt' word allocates space/cleans up aytomatically
15:57:52 <Quiznos> you have 4 cells stackd?
15:57:57 <Raystm2> zero terminated = zt?
15:58:09 <_crc> ray: yes
15:58:10 <Quiznos> would you be happier with rot rot?
15:58:13 <_crc> no..
15:58:20 <Quiznos> crc pick a nick
15:58:23 <_crc> his example should be: pop pop swap push push
15:58:25 <Quiznos> use aan addr?
15:58:36 <reuben> bit rot
15:58:36 <Quiznos> i dont think he knew what he wrote :)
15:58:39 <Raystm2> oh oops :)
15:58:49 <Raystm2> pop pop swap push push darn it.
15:59:08 <Raystm2> Quiznos: ive used later to create a chess.
15:59:14 <Quiznos> one word ray, rswap
15:59:17 <Quiznos> write it
15:59:19 <Raystm2> but it's been that long since ive seen it.
15:59:31 <reuben> i don't see pop in dpans
15:59:44 <_crc> reuben: r> r> swap >r >re
15:59:44 <Raystm2> r> ?
15:59:45 <_crc> reuben: r> r> swap >r >r
15:59:45 <Quiznos> you saw my response to "standards"
16:00:00 <Quiznos> it's your damn implementaiton, do what works!
16:00:01 <Raystm2> Quiznos write it? what?
16:00:08 <Raystm2> hehe
16:00:10 <Quiznos> even Moore disdains ans
16:00:20 <Quiznos> write rswap, 4 opcodes
16:00:26 <Quiznos> i think
16:00:28 <_crc> : later r> r> swap >r >r ;
16:00:35 <Quiznos> 2 pops two pushes in asm
16:00:44 <Quiznos> on iapx cpus
16:00:52 <Quiznos> unless you wanna use a 64bit reg
16:00:56 <reuben> no man is an island
16:01:03 <Quiznos> then you're playing with gas
16:01:08 <Quiznos> i AM the isle
16:01:23 <Quiznos> i'll schmile, Loeliger taught me
16:01:40 <Quiznos> my forth never bate to anyone's drum
16:01:41 <Raystm2> oh yes. the Pentium has 2pop and 2push. with swap you have just three ops
16:02:33 * Raystm2 is writing out pop and push because that's what he's used to in colorforth.
16:03:03 <Raystm2> 2pop xchg 2push?
16:03:19 <_crc> pop ebx
16:03:19 <reuben> we're talking about a programming language, not a musical mysticism
16:03:20 <Raystm2> in pentium op macros. = cyan in cf.
16:03:21 <_crc> pop ecx
16:03:25 <_crc> push ebx
16:03:30 <_crc> push ecx
16:03:45 <Raystm2> reuben hehe
16:03:47 <_crc> 4 opcodes, for retro/reva/helforth/glypher/c4th/....
16:04:00 <Quiznos> i came up with a neat little asm-lang for myself based on something i saw in an ancient ddj
16:04:36 <reuben> these days programming languages are used by programmers to communicate with each other, as well as with computers
16:04:43 <reuben> or not?
16:04:46 <Quiznos> b< c< 
16:04:50 <Quiznos> i dont write for others
16:05:01 <Quiznos> if i want my code to be public, use a yacc grammar
16:05:04 <Quiznos> :)
16:05:44 <Raystm2> reuben: i'm fond of saying that forth is mearly the language that we forth programmers use to communicate with each other.
16:05:54 <_crc> my code is often hard to follow if you don't read the documentation carefully
16:05:54 <Quiznos> or
16:06:08 <Quiznos> forth is the language of the brain to communicate with the hw
16:06:37 <Raystm2> _crc: your code is so close to the hardware and so minimal that it deserves to be read carefully.
16:06:53 <Raystm2> Quiznos: i like that one.
16:06:58 <Quiznos> which?
16:07:06 <Raystm2> meatware vs. hw.
16:07:10 <Quiznos> forth is a way of thinking
16:07:22 <Raystm2> this is also true.
16:07:26 <Quiznos> it's a mental process before it's a program
16:07:35 <Raystm2> ya.
16:07:45 * Raystm2 often sees things as a series of triggers.
16:07:53 <Quiznos> hair-*?
16:07:59 <Raystm2> :)
16:08:17 <Quiznos> i've been bowsing the jargon file, i'm in that sort of mood
16:08:43 * Raystm2 loves the jargon file and the FOLDOC
16:08:54 <Quiznos> i'm reading a 1992 edition
16:09:06 <Quiznos> the best part of it is the intro that ~esr wrote
16:09:07 <Raystm2> book? i mean paper?
16:09:10 <Quiznos> bits
16:09:35 <Raystm2> wifes "get up for work
16:09:41 <Raystm2> " alarm is going off. 
16:09:42 <Raystm2> brb
16:10:06 <Raystm2> it's Led Zep, for those that are following the saga.
16:13:47 <Raystm2> she hit the snooze once. I say she hits it at least two more times, any takers? extra credit if you get the song right.
16:15:00 <Raystm2> Things you should know before you bet. She doesn't have to leave for an hour and fourty minutes, she works about six blocks from here.
16:16:20 <Raystm2> also, she has a 
16:16:37 <Raystm2> "bathe before" job, where as I have a bath after job.
16:17:05 <Raystm2> job i wish i had-- bath during.
16:18:02 <Raystm2> ooh watch me create forth code from the bath dot com or some such.
16:18:57 <Raystm2> snooze count now 2
16:19:09 <Raystm2> commercial.
16:22:22 <Raystm2> sorry. /me is impatiently waiting for her to get up so I can start a project.
16:28:13 <Raystm2> 3 stones.
16:37:41 <Raystm2> 4 you drive us wild we'll drive you crazy, umm Kiss me thinks.
16:46:16 <Raystm2> 5 commercial. she's stretching. phone. who had phone and 5 and commercial.
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17:15:48 <thinkinginbinary> BAH!  Quartus is not here!
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17:15:54 <slava> on x86, is PUSH EAX the same as MOV [ESP],EAX; SUB ESP,4 ?
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17:53:23 <reuben> i think it is funny how esr brags about being a hacker
17:54:34 <reuben> he is qualified to represent the "tribe", which i take to mean the set of all hackers, because he wrote a pc speaker driver for bsd?  or fetchmail?  or maintained ncurses?
17:54:49 <sproingie> esr did not write fetchmail
17:54:55 <Quiznos> and fetchmail
17:54:58 <sproingie> he sure hacked a lot of security holes into it
17:55:32 <sproingie> he also hacked a lot of emacs lisp.  i think he's an all right hacker.  he certainly isn't some kind of luminary
17:55:48 <sproingie> to say nothing of his self-granted "anthropologist" credentials
18:01:11 <thinkinginbinary> reuben: he's like one of those "just a common man" politicians.  he's coded "normal" free software stuff himself, and knows what it's like.
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