00:00:00 --- log: started forth/06.02.15 00:07:36 --- quit: crc (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 00:58:13 --- quit: saon ("leaving") 00:58:56 --- join: saon (i=1000@unaffiliated/saon) joined #forth 01:08:45 --- quit: Raystm2 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 01:11:33 --- join: Raystm2 (n=Raystm2@adsl-69-149-41-128.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 03:52:07 --- quit: warpzero ("Lost terminal") 03:52:12 --- join: warpzero (n=warpzero@wza.us) joined #forth 04:42:37 --- join: Cheery (n=Henri@a81-197-3-163.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #forth 04:50:31 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pete@0-1pool47-4.nas30.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 05:27:45 so, one wants to port libc to forth, where does one begin? 06:09:17 --- nick: Raystm2 -> nanstm 06:39:33 --- join: tathi (n=josh@pdpc/supporter/bronze/tathi) joined #forth 06:39:41 howdy 06:39:56 ..built and tried Factor... Too weird for this ol' fart. 06:39:56 hi 06:40:11 I suspected it would be. 06:41:16 no order, vocs, words... 'see' wasn't built or worked. And, the thing is just oddly documented. 06:42:01 oh, it's all there, it's just not trying to be Forth, so it doesn't have the forth names for things. 06:42:28 well, shit... where are you supposed to find 'em all, then? 06:43:23 there used to be a handbook in pdf format, but he's moving most of the help internal 06:43:32 and concentrating on the graphical UI 06:43:41 heh.. that didn't help me much ;-) 06:43:53 so yeah, if you're not using that I don't think the documentation is great. 06:43:58 ..I tried 'help' and such - all it did was whine 06:44:32 I think the naming is based as much (or more) on Lisp and Joy than Forth. 06:45:05 yeah.. I was sorta' interested in the PACKAGE layout.. Other than that, sheesh 06:47:23 No.. I think FICL was more useful, if we could just get all the order-shit to work and at least a vocs/voclist and wordlists 06:48:02 well...all the ANS wordlist stuff is there 06:48:41 I thought I noted in the docs and the words that it was not - oh, that was the order/also stuff that was incomplete. 06:49:45 oh. huh. 06:49:47 I did sorta' chuckle when I saw the OOP stuff.. Happily, my old efforts with predicates-parsing to do "private lookups" were not entirely silly. 06:50:35 If I try it, I'll seriously need to delve into their code.. They seem to get their rocks off with anonymous too much, and worse: with wordlists. 06:51:44 I'm sort of tempted to just try to deal with lex/flex again, and come up with the most generic possible lexer, first. 06:52:12 although... Bog knows, sscanf might well do as well and take less space in the end. 06:53:07 --- quit: madwork ("?OUT OF DATA ERROR") 06:53:16 Because.. He had some interesting ideas, as did Factor. 06:53:46 --- join: madwork (n=foo@derby.metrics.com) joined #forth 07:28:34 --- join: rehges (n=segher@blueice4n1.de.ibm.com) joined #forth 07:47:00 --- quit: PoppaVic ("Pulls the pin...") 07:49:43 --- join: venandocarvarow (n=venandoc@h062040252001.plc.cm.kabsi.at) joined #forth 07:57:52 And why are wordlists the enemy, exactly? 08:03:12 --- quit: venandocarvarow (Remote closed the connection) 08:24:19 --- join: virl (n=virl@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at) joined #forth 08:28:38 vocabularies could kick wordlists' ass! 08:36:19 --- join: JasonWoof (n=jason@pdpc/supporter/student/Herkamire) joined #forth 08:36:19 --- mode: ChanServ set +o JasonWoof 08:41:08 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pete@0-1pool64-23.nas22.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 08:57:17 Soo... Anymore work on token-forth/cforth? 09:16:40 who? what? 09:18:05 JasonWoof: double-checking on C-based, use-a-token forths. FICL is goingto need a lot of ball-kicks; Factor is.. a mess. 09:18:36 what are you looking for exactly? 09:19:37 JasonWoof: FICL would work, if they had full vocs/order built-in; as is, I want to track vocs and wordlists. A scripting-language with serious heirarchial/namespace ordering. 09:20:56 basically, I think Gforth tells us what can BE; FICL shows us we COULD; and I need something akin. 09:22:13 Gforth only tracks the 'names' of wordlists if you define a constant (or similar) directly after creating a new wordlist. Any intervening definitions and it loses track. 09:22:15 JasonWoof: essentially, I need an extensible, "shell-language" that can dlopen/etc for packaged-extensions. 09:22:45 Quartus: right.. Saw that.. FICL is really heavy into anonymous words and lists. 09:23:58 plus, ficl doesn't want to track/list those wordlists or organize until we hit "basics-comple-go-wild" 09:24:12 comple/complete 09:24:28 Wordlists are anonymous by default. If you want the named, you need to establish a (simple) vocabulary word on top, and then have order draw names out of that. 09:24:39 absolutely 09:24:52 So add that on top of FICL if you need it. 09:24:52 Understood. Appreciate the doublecheck. 09:25:09 Yeah, looks like I'll need to dive deep 09:25:25 I fail to see why. A vocabulary mechanism can be built trivially on top of anonymous wordlist.s 09:25:51 no, into their source, I meant - emplacing answers 09:26:19 Even tathi noticed it got freaky and dropped that line. 09:29:35 I think, between FICL and Factor "ideas" and gforth "capabilities", there are a whole lot of nifty ideas and code drifting around. 09:30:32 The super-kicker still seems to be "extensible" and "layered" (like immediate, compile-only, etc) 09:32:06 I've also been considering, (because this is not a "full-up" language/interpreter), using a database for a slew of issues. 09:33:57 Basically, all we care is about extensible and layered and "can C (bidrectional)" and does... No slower than sh, anyway. 09:35:15 Think of a cpp(preprocessor) on steroids and amphetamines. 09:35:43 or even back off a level and consider 'make' instead of cpp 09:59:36 I didn't say it was freaky 10:00:54 I said I didn't feel like bothering with the details to code it properly. 10:01:06 tathi: understood... And it also didn't interest you. Right. 10:02:12 Didn't mean to put words in yer mouth, I was merely paraphrasing and "assuming" (wherein the latter is always dangerous) 10:02:47 I still think it's a trivial addition 10:03:01 I'm sure it is... there. 10:03:21 If you want it that badly I'll take a half hour and finish it 10:03:25 It would definitely imply tinkering the .c file(s) 10:03:57 tathi: well, if you CAN and seem to understand my loss, sure/please! 10:04:35 Otherwise, I'm thinking a fullup rewrite: I've got more issues than advocates, contrib or hours! 10:08:31 ok...if I understand you correctly, what you want is basically a ".vocabs" word 10:08:52 and maybe something like get-order only which gets all vocabs instead of just the current search-order 10:08:59 yes? 10:09:03 vocs, order, and maybe a worlists. 10:09:15 yeah, yer on the track 10:09:20 * JasonWoof curses cell-phones 10:09:51 I just want to be able to organize well and have a cunthair of FICL~=gforth 10:11:00 tathi: if you can manage this, that'd be great.. I've just about decided we need at least THAT to handle even the basics we want and sexpr 10:12:06 The idea of totally anonymous wordlists has ALWAYS bugged me... 10:12:28 Somewhere, you need to track the wordlists: even they are not vocs 10:12:49 [if] they 10:13:19 And, I like the ficl "prefix" idea - although Factor goes even further. 10:15:30 I should really get a Forthy release out one of these days. 10:15:38 JasonWoof: you know..? I can envision either brother w/o them? They are ALWAYS on the goddamned phone - talking shit that I can but hope costs them 2 arms and a leg. 10:15:55 madwork: forthy being? 10:16:16 My C-based forth-like scripting system. 10:19:04 Oh, lord.. Love to see it. 10:19:48 We've so many "issues" in so many places in scripting, building, etc - it's all fodder 10:21:24 I refuse to accept that "asm" is the "Penultimate Answer", anymore than "autoshit rules the universe". 10:22:09 Near as I can tell, C is STILL best defined as "semi-portable asm" 10:24:25 Well, you can grab it from SourceForge via cvs. 10:24:51 At this point, CVS still makes me a bit sick, so I must pass 10:24:51 http://sourceforge.net/projects/forthy 10:25:11 I like and respect plain old tarballs ;-) 10:25:18 Heh. 10:25:24 But, I will also remember yer cvs 10:25:39 Well anyway, my vocabulary behaviour is nice and simple, and works pretty well. 10:26:05 Each word header has a field for its vocabulary. The vocabulary must be a pre-existing word in the dictionary. 10:26:21 madwork: in all my years, cvs is always the LEAST of my issues.. More usually, folks promise and get excited - and then wander off to get laid (or whatever). 10:26:26 grrrr 10:26:48 the FICL guy must be a Windoze user -- for some reason they never seem to understand how to write a Makefile 10:26:55 HAH! tathi: I would wager you are now seeing why I was ready to cry! 10:27:11 hehe I thank you again, tathi 10:27:24 PoppaVic, maybe I can package you up something later on. 10:27:39 Thing is, Forthy is not a language, it's a VM. So, you implement the language with it. 10:28:32 My example language that I use for testing is rather limited, but you'd be able to get the jist of how stuff works. 10:28:54 madwork: that's fine, I *WANT* embedded 10:29:31 I use it embedded at work in some projects. 10:30:13 Life is good! 10:30:32 It simplifies FFI tremendously 10:31:43 Either my C is built into the package, or I dlopen, or we need a thrid choice: and forthish-text is a decent solution. 10:31:57 Well, my "FFI" involves a wrapper function that passes stuff in and out of the data stack. 10:32:08 Similar to Lua, really. 10:32:13 that's fine. 10:32:29 And then you register that wrapper as a Forthy primitive. 10:32:52 I looked at Lua, and realized it'd be at least another year of learning-curve.. For what? a C-ish Pike-ish mess. 10:32:52 Even stuff like + and - isn't built in... nothing is. You create what you want on top of the VM. 10:33:02 Yep 10:33:05 Well, Lua is pretty nice, small, and embeddable. I'd give it some serious consideration. 10:33:16 I even want STACKS to be "objects" 10:33:18 But unlike Forth/Forthy, you can't really extend the language/compiler. 10:33:25 --- join: ravenEx (n=ravenEx@VPN-224-224.aichyna.com) joined #forth 10:33:36 Right. THe extensibility is job-one 10:33:51 Yes, I'm working on a new type interface for supporting container types such as stack, list, and table. 10:33:59 As well as user objects/types. 10:34:09 At this time, I am predicating a LOT of shit on a POSIX-centric ndbm database. 10:34:42 I don't CARE if "the shell" is slower than gforth or C or ficl.. 10:35:18 It's merely got to be as powerful and extensible as we can stand and faster than autoshit+make+m4+sh 10:35:38 oh... Neater is also an issue 10:36:27 I see no reason we'd have to KNOW C (or forth or asm) to learn autoshit to learn m4 to learn sh and then fight the 3 atop our own issues. 10:37:31 SOooo, we want an overly-powerful "make" that can handle - one way or another - m4/perl issues as well as sh issues. 10:38:04 We write a specialized "shell" that is extensible via source or shlibs. 10:38:14 or even plugins 10:38:33 Yep. 10:38:33 and we ONLY DISTRO what we authorize. 10:38:55 Are you comfortable with DARCS? 10:38:56 SVN? 10:39:04 "extensions" are clearcut and identifiable. 10:39:25 Huh? these are CVS types, yes? 10:39:39 Different, but yea. 10:39:52 DARCS is the simplest, yet powerful. 10:40:19 I was resistant to darcs initially, but it's growing on me :) 10:40:21 ugh. No, sorry.. I've never needed more than email-attaches, rafb and diff/patch - most folks die early. 10:40:36 But, I suppose I should just get off of my but and get a SourceForge Forthy release ready for download. 10:40:45 really, tathi ? I shall look into it. 10:40:57 tathi, yea DARCS is neato. :) No server is nice. 10:41:07 And it's great for local projects. 10:41:17 madwork: look, use a goddamned "make tarball" and a tarball of LATEST post. 10:41:35 How's WinZip for you? ;) 10:42:15 I am perfectly willing to consider somethink like "make tarball" for cvs-ish shit, but there are too many variants allllll over. 10:42:47 winzip??? no. BSD/macosx: use tar.gz or tar.bz2 10:43:18 I've even handles .zip, but most folks can't make one properley. 10:43:32 handled, properly 10:43:34 Well, gotta get back to it... TTYL. 10:44:40 madwork: stay well 10:47:14 --- join: tormoz (n=1@h180.n226.iptel.by) joined #forth 10:51:06 OK, more like 45 minutes 10:51:19 hehe 10:51:24 PoppaVic: I dropped you an e-mail with patches against ficl 4.0.31 10:51:35 if that's not what you're looking for, let me know 10:51:41 tathi: not to worry. I really am several days from screaming and crying 10:52:04 Thanks.. lemme' grab mail (if fink lets me interrupt) 10:52:22 Forthy might also be what you're looking for -- I thought you were aware of it already. 10:52:48 tathi: yes, I think we went thru his "gee, use CVS" before. 10:53:05 well, it's not like it's difficult 10:53:21 I agree, but it is inconvenient. 10:53:36 I figure I have damn near too much on my plate now 10:53:57 why inconvenient? there has got to be a CVS package for OS X 10:54:10 sourceforge has instructions for using it 10:54:51 per project even, so you can just copy and paste 10:55:17 yeah, I need to work with them further 10:55:39 I just hate CVS, I guess. 10:55:56 What was that alternative? DART? 10:56:42 darcs 10:56:55 it's in Haskell though, so it needs ghc to build 10:56:57 DARCS, ok - thanks. 10:57:02 arrrg 10:57:08 http://abridgegame.org/darcs 10:57:25 hehe.. Reminds me of "why ain't it in forth?" 10:57:46 yeah, it's kind of neat, we're starting to see compilers for languages other than C 10:58:00 compilers that work on my PPC box, even :) 10:58:07 anyway, thanks.. Lemme' mull and install shit ;-) 10:58:15 stay well! 10:58:17 --- quit: PoppaVic ("Pulls the pin...") 11:16:23 --- quit: tormoz () 12:49:26 --- join: neceve (n=Clau@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 13:27:23 --- quit: ravenEx ("All non-trivial abstractions, to some degree, are leaky.") 13:29:21 --- quit: rehges () 13:33:30 --- quit: uiuiuiu (Remote closed the connection) 13:33:34 --- join: uiuiuiu (i=ian@dslb-084-056-222-235.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 14:14:22 Ärgh 14:14:27 I'm fucking angry. 14:14:37 why 14:14:43 Any language I hit, is ill designed for something. :E 14:15:00 heh, well then being angry is the wrong response :> 14:15:00 like: who would write python into minibuffer? 14:15:14 Hmm. 14:15:17 Or wait... 14:15:25 Maybe I would... 14:15:42 naah 14:15:47 the programmer's Tao requires you to choose the right tool (lang) for the job 14:16:00 It should make so much even it would be that. 14:16:28 Quiznos, yes, but there should be only one type of language. 14:16:35 nop 14:16:42 there are four 14:16:58 chomsky classifications 14:17:10 or, Noamskis :) 14:17:34 Which would handle markup, high level, low level, config, user-interface, and anything else you happen to need. 14:17:50 you're asking this in #Forth? 14:18:06 I'm not asking anything. 14:18:11 yea you are 14:18:18 you just did 14:18:32 you are self-confussing, that's the problem. 14:18:47 oh, what do you mean? 14:19:06 you my previous answer still applies 14:19:09 the programmer's Tao requires you to choose the right tool (lang) for the job 14:19:24 Yep, currently. 14:19:32 But I hate that thing. 14:19:39 what thing? 14:19:49 It would be best if I would have only one language which works for all. 14:20:02 lisp 14:20:30 lisp? low level too? 14:20:49 it goes for markup, high level, config and user-interface, but for low level too? 14:20:58 perhaps, but what do you need with lowlevel? 14:21:11 Thing which would replace C. 14:21:32 asm 14:21:42 That way, the whole language would be seamless. 14:21:49 maybe asm too. 14:21:59 why isnt forth your choice? 14:22:20 It has no implementation which suits me. 14:22:25 then make your own 14:23:28 --- quit: Cheery (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 14:23:57 --- join: Cheery (i=Henri@a81-197-3-163.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #forth 14:25:09 Lisp almost had, but it too needed very much work before doing actually something. 14:25:12 Python has been provided much stuff for free, that's just an advantage if you are doing anything bigger. 14:26:10 Hmm. But you meant for that all-for-one thing? 14:26:33 well, i'm not sure of what you're doing, so... 14:27:05 forth is quite useful yes, but it is quite lowlevel. With some changes I could turn it into highlevel too, but I've no idea how it would turn into markup language or configuration file. 14:27:14 As user interface it would go too. 14:27:38 i think you have a conceptual problem that also prevents your chosal of a lang 14:27:41 I'm currently fiddling with one python project I'm doing, and having difficulties with user interface. 14:28:32 Or wait, do I? 14:28:42 Yes. With one you're righ.t 14:28:48 I'm self-confusing. 14:29:02 so, what are you gonna do now? 14:29:02 I can't help it much. :) 14:29:09 now that you've admitted your prob? 14:30:11 well, I'm first going to re-organize, then I'm going to do the minibuffer, but using it different way, so that I avoid the language gap. 14:30:19 ok 14:30:43 Like, no E -> text mode -> write switch_mode editor 14:31:27 there will be button F5, which gives the minibuffer access and after committing sends the response to switch_mode 14:32:18 I'm still looking for that holy grail thought. 14:32:36 And someday, I'll do what I dream of. 14:32:40 heh, ask your heavenly father for help 14:34:41 If you can say "Forth is too low level" with a straight face, you have insufficient experience in Forth. 14:35:08 I agree I've not much experience with forth. 14:35:24 It's intresting language which is hard to classify anyway. 14:35:28 It would serve you well to gain experience with it such that you can evaluate it appropriately. 14:35:38 to me, forth is multicellular like the body is 14:35:45 it is trancendent 14:36:44 Everything is trancendent in some aspects. 14:36:51 not like forth 14:37:24 Forth and lisp are both something I would propably try out if I wouldn't have hurry to finish something. :) 14:38:04 I propably should implement forth myself if I would take some advantage from it. 14:38:17 everyone has to at some point 14:38:21 And you're spending time here, when you're in a hurry to finish something, to tell us that you think Forth is inappropriate for your needs, despite having insufficient experience to make that assertion? 14:38:36 bbl 14:38:55 Quartus, I'm talking in wider timeslice. 14:39:09 Of course I've time to observe, and communicate. 14:39:12 What the hell is 'wider timeslice'? 14:39:47 Do not look at this moment, look farther. 14:40:48 I've just another project I want to finish currently, like obsession. 14:41:26 forth and lisp are another kind of obsessions for me too. :) But the feeling of finishing something is so much stronger obsession that those obsessions may wait. 14:41:48 I've done 31 workhours this already. 14:42:03 I'm going to continue another 31 workhours. 14:42:28 Thus those I'll spend in making it simplier, greater, more humble, 14:43:07 I'll do a complete techdemo with python. Then I'll fill it with content. 14:43:18 --- nick: segher_ -> segher 14:44:39 But anyway, Quartus you understood me completely wrong anyway. I'm not just cursing where I've end to. I'm also rowing. 14:45:34 I'm just gaining strength to do it. 14:45:47 It's been fun. 14:48:11 * Cheery is half-confused, half-happy when writing this. 14:48:50 Anyway, everyone will have problems, I would be worried if I wouldn't have them. 14:50:00 good night. 14:52:02 Oh, and I wouldn't care if someone calls something inapproriate their needs. It's not insult at all. 14:53:02 See? It's inapproate __that current time__ ____only____ for the one who says so... 14:54:15 Some day, forth will be useful for me, propably if I'm going to do something with limited and small system, and I need a powerfull development platform which provides me low error rate. 14:56:07 Or another end: there's sharpest hardware available, but the code must be fastest I'm capable of doing to complete the job, and the hardware is well-known. 14:56:56 In those cases, I propably wouldn't use python, and I would hate to use C. So there's one possible choice. 14:57:17 but GN anyway. 14:57:22 * Cheery sleeps now. 14:58:02 oh, and in some cases C wouldn't be the choice even if I would like to use it. It lacks interactive interpreter. 14:58:12 Actually that makes it suck bad. 14:58:50 GN, now sleep before I'm finding out something more to say. :DD 14:59:08 I've lot of it... GRAH! 14:59:13 * Cheery shuts down. 14:59:24 --- quit: Cheery (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 15:05:42 --- join: ThinkingInBinary (n=tom@pool-68-163-189-186.bos.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 15:06:03 Hi. 15:06:13 Hi ThinkingInBinary. 15:10:01 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 15:26:28 --- quit: virl ("Verlassend") 15:42:28 --- quit: neceve ("Bye people, I'm leaving") 15:55:35 --- quit: ThinkingInBinary (Connection timed out) 16:15:32 --- quit: madgarden ("?OUT OF DATA ERROR") 16:17:22 --- join: madgarden (n=madgarde@Toronto-HSE-ppp3713137.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 17:14:15 --- join: snoopy_1711 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-145-234.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 17:14:54 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Nick collision from services.) 17:15:26 --- nick: snoopy_1711 -> Snoopy42 17:23:10 --- join: EnragedTux (n=whitcode@nat-198.gv.resnet.unca.edu) joined #forth 18:01:27 --- join: nballen (n=nballen@ppp-69-239-137-85.dsl.renocs.pacbell.net) joined #forth 18:32:47 --- join: ThinkingInBinary (n=tom@pool-68-163-137-213.bos.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 19:28:07 --- quit: nballen () 19:28:27 --- quit: ThinkingInBinary ("Konversation terminated!") 20:13:26 --- join: segher_ (n=segher@dslb-084-056-141-046.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 20:25:54 --- quit: segher (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 22:49:49 --- nick: segher_ -> segher 23:08:14 --- join: crc (i=crc@69.46.24.28) joined #forth 23:08:15 --- quit: crc__ (Connection reset by peer) 23:28:54 --- quit: JasonWoof ("off to bed") 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/06.02.15