00:00:00 --- log: started forth/06.02.13 00:38:27 --- quit: crc (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)) 01:00:18 --- join: asymptote (n=weldon@c-68-48-103-120.hsd1.dc.comcast.net) joined #forth 01:09:15 --- part: asymptote left #forth 01:24:43 --- join: rehges (n=segher@blueice3n1.de.ibm.com) joined #forth 03:07:04 --- quit: Invifer4 (Remote closed the connection) 03:59:22 --- join: Cheery (i=Henri@a81-197-3-163.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #forth 04:29:42 --- join: virl (n=virl@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at) joined #forth 04:45:24 --- quit: Cheery ("Leaving") 04:46:24 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pete@0-1pool46-155.nas30.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 06:01:27 --- quit: madwork ("?OUT OF DATA ERROR") 06:02:48 --- join: madwork (n=foo@derby.metrics.com) joined #forth 06:41:26 --- join: PoppaVic_ (n=pete@0-1pool47-76.nas30.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 06:41:46 --- quit: PoppaVic (Nick collision from services.) 06:41:54 --- nick: PoppaVic_ -> PoppaVic 07:08:21 --- quit: PoppaVic ("Pulls the pin...") 07:10:33 --- join: venandocarvarow (n=venandoc@h062040252008.plc.cm.kabsi.at) joined #forth 09:02:40 --- quit: venandocarvarow (Remote closed the connection) 09:26:06 --- join: Cheery (i=Henri@a81-197-3-163.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #forth 09:54:02 --- quit: rehges () 10:59:11 --- join: Lars_G (n=lars@unaffiliated/lars-g/x-000001) joined #forth 11:02:28 Hi all. 11:02:35 Quartus: Hi there. Are you around? 11:28:13 Hey. 11:29:32 Hey 11:30:03 Quartus: I wanted to tell you, I have a big project to the future I might never finish, which is trying to port slava's language to the palm, and I wondered if it was going to rub you the wrong way before I started. 11:31:01 I don't hold dominion over all things Palm, Lars_G. :) 11:31:14 Hahaha Ok. 11:31:18 Thanks 11:34:41 porting slavas factor to palm, ehm, why? 11:36:18 Because I like what I've seen so far from factor, and I'd like an enviro on my palm 11:36:25 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pete@0-2pool236-156.nas22.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 11:37:39 well then you probably need to write own window classes for it, or not? 11:38:46 Own window classes? 11:39:05 Well I'll have to look how to work with palm objects (forms), yes 11:42:50 --- join: PoppaVic_ (n=pete@0-1pool65-153.nas22.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 11:43:08 --- quit: PoppaVic (Nick collision from services.) 11:43:11 --- nick: PoppaVic_ -> PoppaVic 11:43:25 well, classes/objects for handling palms own windowing functions and probably you put that into it's own class called palmwindow or something like that. 11:44:15 It's still a very alpha project, I haven't even started defining structure yet 11:45:42 --- join: tathi (n=josh@pdpc/supporter/bronze/tathi) joined #forth 11:48:05 hmm? 11:49:33 personally I think factor is something for PCs and not embedded devices, but ok today so called embedded devices have enough ressources to theoretically run it. 11:51:51 yeah, it's a little slower than I'd like on my 533 MHz G4 11:51:59 ahh 11:52:06 but it's young yet, so there's probably room for speed improvement 11:52:10 * PoppaVic settles in to observe 11:52:15 Nod. 11:52:47 Plus on the final mode, I will seek a way (for smaller embedded devices) to associate library to program, so subsets would be easier to make use of. 11:53:12 I plan to apply a plan different to Quartus' 11:53:37 cross-compiling engines and generators/code? 11:53:41 The interpreter would be a full system yes, but there will be a "cross-compiling" mode too. 11:53:47 PoppaVic: Correct. 11:53:59 OK... tracking ;-) 11:54:22 PoppaVic: That is intended a little more to the future (I want to see if I can get Factor to work on the AVR microcontroller). 11:54:36 PoppaVic: And the fact I do not intend to try and build an in-system compiler like Quartus did 11:54:38 oh my god.. 11:55:04 ... no compiler? 11:55:12 Still, I DO intend to provide a full interpreter with tailored generic library (just discard what CANNOT be used in the target) to the palm 11:55:18 Quartus: No built in one 11:55:21 Quartus: Only cross. 11:55:27 Lars_G: so you're basically planning to port the factor runtime, and then make a stripped down image for it? 11:55:33 trying to run factor on avr micros, well, I hope that don't finish that. 11:55:36 tathi: Exactly. 11:55:48 I think, anymore, it's about 80% platform and cpu. Too damned many variant-distro. 11:55:51 I don't want fucking OOP languages on microcontrollers 11:56:06 virl: You're free not to use it. 11:56:22 are you talking OOP ala' forthish? 11:56:31 tathi: Actually two possibilities of stripped down libraries. Hand stripped and autostripped. 11:56:36 Lars_G, you say that, but it's not true. 11:56:37 ..if so, it's personal and avoidable. 11:56:51 I see. 11:56:58 virl: I am currently getting seriouslt trolled by your attitude, so I will ignore you. 11:57:26 Lars_G: oh, hell: he has an XML fixation ;-) Other than that, he's ok ;-> 11:57:29 tathi: An originally hand stripped library is an as complete as possible library for a target that can be used for interactive development or running precoded programs. 11:57:50 PoppaVic, you fucking idiot, I don't have an XML fixation 11:58:02 virl: and.. a potty-mouth ;-) 11:58:39 tathi: for smaller devices, or deployment, a further recursive automatic stripping will take only the elements used from the library by the code, and create either a double image (needed library on one, code on another) or a single image to deploy to. 11:58:46 I'm easy..I don;t have to agree - or HAVE agree- all people. 11:58:55 Lars_G: right 11:59:08 I gather slava hasn't explored in that direction at all yet 11:59:11 PoppaVic: Still he's ingrating my nerves (was that the right word? ingrating?? was it grating?) 11:59:22 Lars_G: are you (I hope) suggesting a forthish that nests down deep, refs and knows what to extract from a lib? 11:59:26 "grating on", usually 11:59:40 tathi: No, afaik he hasn't he's from what i see gearing it to be a broader language, not targeted so hard as i intend to try to target it. 11:59:59 Lars_G: yah, so it'll be interesting to see what you come up with :) 12:00:00 ingrate is unappreciative; "grate on/upon" is like "sandpapering my Wa" ;-) 12:00:11 Nod. Thanks PoppaVic and tathi 12:00:21 np 12:00:37 PoppaVic: I'm still trying to gather my wits about it, and latter try to define how to do this monster 12:00:46 I can understand low-level tools, and I prefer higher translators/transliterators/compilers. 12:01:04 --- quit: madwork ("?OUT OF DATA ERROR") 12:01:22 Problem I usually see is in the "where am I" and "what's avaiable" modes. 12:01:28 nod 12:01:53 Altough I haven't seen his code, I think Slava's method of distributing bootstrap images for the language might actually help me archieve this. 12:02:00 Specially if I have a reusable microcore. 12:02:04 --- join: madwork (n=foo@derby.metrics.com) joined #forth 12:02:24 I want the smallest possible core, since it'll be were the only hard targeting work will be performed. 12:02:30 the rest is just a pruning of library 12:02:59 My trouble is that I am running against as much OS and OSless devices, so generalizing will be a pita. 12:03:12 are you talking about rewriting the runtime? or just porting it to a C compiler for Palm? 12:03:17 I'm even considering looking for/writting a pico-OS to server as a base on OSless systems 12:03:25 Yessir, it sucks. I like C - but there it even gets ugly. 12:03:42 s/server/serve/ 12:04:06 Lars_G: you thinking at all about POSIX or the ANS/ansi shit? 12:04:17 PoppaVic: No, not really. 12:04:25 I can't blame you much 12:04:28 :D 12:05:04 As a rule, I've concluded POSIX can be best expressed as optional support for devices/dirs/modes 12:05:21 I will have to look for a rather reduced predefined obligatory set. SInce I'm going to go very small. 12:05:26 The rest would be modularily optional. 12:05:39 I can't regulate something like that with a all-encopassing std. 12:05:40 Using whoms core libc alternative? 12:05:47 Good question. 12:05:51 IDK yet. idk. 12:06:03 I planned to look thowards uLibc first 12:06:09 see what I think of it. 12:06:10 ok.. Well, keep me/us apprised, please. 12:06:14 Sure 12:06:32 I've got to write a Forthish shell yet, for my Metabuilder. 12:06:54 PoppaVic: Heh just the other day I was wishing for a forthish shell :D 12:07:02 prob is.. I'm sorta' mindfucked between forthish and goddamned s-expressions. 12:07:07 the only deterrant I saw was the lack of a string stack (which factor has) 12:07:17 easy to handle 12:07:19 NAI 12:07:38 Start with just-plain-stacks 12:07:57 I'm not even sure we always NEED rpn-use stacks 12:08:44 Hehehe I'm RPN adicted right now, while I learn forth :) don't ask me to stop using it right now ;) 12:09:01 the sexpr shit I've pseudo-coded sorta' suggests we MIGHT want to dick aroundwith some RPN - or even infix/trees. 12:09:16 yep, I've been thru the lot. 12:09:26 I've skirted s-expr so far, a friend is trying to force me into Lisp too, and I'm resisting. 12:09:28 string stacks, well, strings should be dumped into other data structures than stacks, really normally strings are something which need to be one time or named. 12:09:44 tathi has a damned good handle on C and forthishs 12:10:03 Though I must admit right now I'm resisting because I'm A) More excited about Forth and Factor, and B) I refuse to use emacs :P 12:10:08 virl: think of them as "references" to "objects" 12:10:16 PoppaVic: That's nice, my own achiles heel is that I'm weak at C right now. 12:10:46 Yes, a reference/pointer stack would be nice. 12:10:51 oh, C - I got C nailed.. NAI. The FFI crap and getting between mindsets can be ugly. 12:10:53 PoppaVic, to think of them in that way hurts, objects and references tend to be ugly. 12:11:07 virl: well, think then of "handles" 12:11:19 handles, ugh. 12:11:27 how about pointers 12:11:29 Loke love handles 12:11:43 NAI: it adds max of 1 layer of conversion/indirection 12:12:01 pointers are fine, alas: you can't control most of them 12:12:42 It's great to be able to think deep things again :') 12:12:55 it's easier to use fileno(FILE*) than it is to dock with fdopen(int) 12:13:00 I was pill-less for two months and it sucked :) 12:13:38 Beer, cigs, joe and C - add the net and xchat: life is tolerable. 12:14:12 heh. 12:14:42 I don't do beer or gics, on the rest I agree altough I don't like C much, I preffer either "higher" or lower stuff. 12:15:20 I never did figure out where to hack FICL to provide real vocs and "vocs", but - as a rule - I sorta' like their code (if not the funcs/vars naming schemes) 12:16:16 Lars_G: trust me here... C is more useful than asm, GENERICALLY. Note the emphasis. 12:16:28 oh. I started to hack that, but got bogged down dealing with the details. 12:16:31 PoppaVic: I KNOW that, I do not deffend my possition as rational. 12:16:46 Now, for microcontrollers it might be a truffle more spastic 12:17:05 tathi: yeah, they built it sideways 12:17:25 Lars_G: sure you do... But the WHY's will hit later. 12:17:46 nod 12:17:59 I'm headstrong but not criminally so 12:18:34 PoppaVic: nah, I got the basic functionality - I just didn't feel like figuring out where to store the list head, and how much to do in C, how much in Forth, etc. 12:18:40 Personally, I think the largest issue with Forth(ish) is that everyone wants to write some freaked optimizing-assembler for one place. 12:18:58 tathi: oh, I saw the former and screamed 12:19:01 PoppaVic: Sssshhhh!!! i440 will hear! 12:19:51 bah. I440r can't stand optimizing. He just likes asm :) 12:20:01 yep 12:20:18 PURE "do this or die" versus "do this, and leave me the fuck alone" 12:20:22 tathi: I love assembly too, specially for good RISC arches, but I'm not SO headstrong :) 12:24:49 hmm 12:25:06 I just can't, anymore, "love" assembly 12:25:42 #1) OS are far more advanced and powerful than my Z80 days; #2) it's just not "portable" 12:25:58 Oh I agree 12:26:08 it's hard pressed to work in a full fledged system in assembly. 12:26:17 Nowadays it's even hard pressed to work in embedded systems in assembly. 12:26:24 hmm 12:26:35 but that doesn't means I can't still love assembly, even if I wouldn't use it professionally in 96% of the cases 12:26:46 I would think either of those would BENEFIT from asm 12:27:12 well, that %4 percent just doesn't endear me to asm 12:27:43 Hmmm brb there is a router giving troubles 12:27:49 --- quit: Lars_G ("Leaving") 12:28:00 I used to prowl #asm as well as #forth... Problem is, the former wants to either write an OS, or rely on linux. 12:34:01 --- quit: PoppaVic ("Making Dinner Fly!") 13:32:20 --- quit: uiuiuiu (Remote closed the connection) 13:32:24 --- join: uiuiuiu (i=ian@dslb-084-056-228-053.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 13:52:48 --- quit: Cheery ("Leaving") 14:00:01 --- join: thin (i=thin@69.46.24.28) joined #forth 14:01:31 --- part: thin left #forth 14:37:30 --- join: crc (i=crc@pool-70-16-156-142.phil.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 15:36:41 --- quit: crc (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)) 15:47:09 --- join: ThinkingInBinary (n=tom@pool-68-163-135-152.bos.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 16:02:03 --- quit: virl ("Verlassend") 16:49:05 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 17:12:24 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 17:18:58 --- join: Snoopy42 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-135-036.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 18:16:39 --- join: crc (i=crc@pool-70-110-143-236.phil.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 18:50:18 --- quit: crc () 19:37:03 --- quit: ThinkingInBinary ("Konversation terminated!") 20:11:36 --- join: segher (n=segher@dslb-084-056-136-186.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 20:26:37 --- quit: segher_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 23:33:47 --- join: Cheery (i=Henri@a81-197-3-163.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/06.02.13