00:00:00 --- log: started forth/06.02.12
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06:41:46 <PoppaVic> I'm... Cogitating a bit of a psychotic-dilemma...
06:42:57 <PoppaVic> Don't almost all Forths think more "bottom-up", than "top-down"? Even (particularly) configuration of the engine itself?
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08:05:03 <ThinkingInBinary> Quartus: Good morning.
08:08:28 <virl> hi...
08:09:38 <ThinkingInBinary> virl: Good morning.
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08:22:35 <tathi> ThinkingInBinary: 1125 mAh sounds very high for AAA batteries.
08:23:09 <tathi> oh, you probably weren't looking at rechargeables.  nevermind.
08:23:16 <ThinkingInBinary> tathi: You have like 12 hour lag, but they were alkaline, yeah.
08:23:24 <ThinkingInBinary> tathi: It's more like 700-ish for NiMH, right?
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08:24:40 <tathi> yeah, about that.
08:24:54 <tathi> heh.  yeah, I usually check back through the logs when I get on.
08:27:14 <tathi> you can get 1100 in AA size, but that's pretty thick for a handheld device.
08:30:10 <ThinkingInBinary> tathi: Meh, handheld != handheld.
08:30:48 <ThinkingInBinary> tathi: So Quartus think's it's dumb to build this, just because such things already exist.  Is it ridiculous, or is "I wanna see if I can do it!" a good reason?  (It's also my first real electronics project, so there's plenty of side benefit.)
08:31:05 <ThinkingInBinary> tathi: I mean I understand his point, but I still wanna do it.
08:32:59 <tathi> well, I agree with you -- it's something I plan to do at some point.
08:33:40 <tathi> mainly because I don't like the external design of the ones that are out there.
08:33:55 <tathi> I want the whole front of the thing to be a screen, with buttons on the side
08:34:04 <tathi> not a touch screen
08:34:32 <tathi> and preferably fairly water-resistant.
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08:37:41 <tathi> Also, back when I had a Palm, they weren't very developer friendly.  It was way too easy to lock it up so that you'd have to do a hard reset and lose all your data (and programming environment).
08:39:09 <tathi> But that was quite a few years ago, so it's probably no longer a valid complaint (I would hope). :)
08:40:18 <Quartus> Nowadays you can back them up quite easily to SD cards.
08:40:31 <Quartus> And they are more resilient too.
08:40:48 <interferon> i heard that palm is going to windows ce
08:41:05 <Quartus> Only one device is Palm branded but has WinCE on it.
08:41:16 <interferon> so they're sticking with PalmOS on the rest?
08:41:24 <Quartus> ThinkingInBinary, I didn't say it was dumb. I said I wasn't going to get excited about it.
08:41:26 <Quartus> interferon - right.
08:41:45 <JasonWoof> tathi: most palms now come with a reasonable amount of flash
08:41:54 <interferon> well that's good to hear
08:42:59 <ThinkingInBinary> tathi: Maybe I can build up to this actually being a decent PDA.  I bet a FORTH-powered PDA that didn't suck (like mine will initially--it won't really be a PDA actually) would be really popular among developers.
08:44:03 <ThinkingInBinary> Quartus: Sorry, I meant that you didn't think it was a good use of my time.  (You thought I should do something new.)
08:44:35 <Quartus> In fact you asked me what would catch *my* interest, and I said something new. How you use your time and whether that use is good enough or not is entirely your ball to carry.
08:45:33 <ThinkingInBinary> Quartus: Okay, sorry, I totally misquoted you.
08:46:11 <tathi> No problem, I figured that was the case. :)
08:47:12 <ThinkingInBinary> Quartus: Sorry. :-\
08:47:16 <Quartus> No worries.
08:48:38 <ThinkingInBinary> I would like to get this to the point where it's got a decent processor speed, screen, and input.  Then I'll just start filling it with cool programs.  A graphing calculator would be cool, PDA stuff would be nice, and of course a few games.
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08:54:38 <virl> how do you want to build it's chassis?
08:55:05 <ThinkingInBinary> virl: Dunno yet, probably a small flat project enclosure until I find something cooler.  (Well when I start it'll just be a breadboard until the hardware works.)
08:56:06 <ThinkingInBinary> virl: Any ideas?
08:58:23 <virl> for building chassis? ehm no. building such a complex cool open device? well..., no, I tried something similiar and failed because of the losely IC supply here, well in .us that's not a problem I think.
08:58:48 <ThinkingInBinary> virl: What IC's were you having trouble finding?
09:00:09 <virl> ehm, oscils, well it was a small binary clock.
09:03:08 <ThinkingInBinary> virl: Ratshack has a nice-looking 3x2x1" project box (they have a 4x2x1" one too)
09:03:39 <virl> ah, ok.
09:04:55 <ThinkingInBinary> virl: Of course it will need room for either a character or graphic LCD (preferably graphic by the time I get to putting it in a box), several (maybe ridiculously many) LED's, a chording keyboard on the back, probably a serial port, and room for expansion.
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09:15:53 <ThinkingInBinary> virl: Any ideas for ridiculous or awesome peripherals to add?
09:30:25 <virl> well, ridiculous would be a big button for turning the thing up, you know such a big button which can be found in cartoons, so the magic big red button
09:30:42 <Quiznos> use a Big Hammer!
09:32:32 <virl> for turning it off?
09:57:18 <ThinkingInBinary> virl: Yes, it needs an Emergency Stop button!  Good idea!
09:57:24 <ThinkingInBinary> Quiznos: nah
09:57:53 <ThinkingInBinary> Quiznos: maybe as an actuator.  Like it'll have one button that when you push it once says "Please do not push this button again", and if you push it again the hammer pops out and whacks your finger ;-)
09:58:09 <Quiznos> your response is SEVERAL HOURS delayed :)
09:59:08 <ThinkingInBinary> Quiznos: um, 27 minutes.
09:59:32 <Quiznos> in 'net time, that's hourn.  that text scrolled so long ago i dont remember
10:00:03 <ThinkingInBinary> Quiznos: it's less than 10 lines away.
10:00:15 <Quiznos> not in my buffer
10:00:18 <Quiznos> :)
10:00:28 <Quiznos> i'm in ##linux, do you know how busy we are here?
10:00:37 <ThinkingInBinary> Quiznos: oh, are you using a PoppaVic-style 48-column terminal where my name takes up 1/3 of the screen? ;-)
10:01:06 <ThinkingInBinary> Quiznos: I'm checking.
10:01:09 <Quiznos> /bin/sh: line 0: .: filename argument required
10:01:09 <Quiznos> .: usage: . filename [arguments]
10:01:16 <Quiznos> .
10:01:28 <Quiznos> hmm i dont have row/column env vars
10:01:31 <Quiznos> sol :)
10:01:32 <ThinkingInBinary> Quiznos: Is that a question?  "." is short for "source" I think.
10:01:47 <Quiznos> trying to printenv
10:01:54 <ThinkingInBinary> Quiznos: ah
10:06:35 <ThinkingInBinary> Quiznos: hahaha 96 hahaha
10:06:38 <ThinkingInBinary> Quiznos: 512 here
10:07:02 <ThinkingInBinary> Quiznos: just teasing.  i don't actually use most of the 512 unless i'm running something like KDE.
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12:29:48 <ThinkingInBinary> Quartus: is 96 bytes enough to allocate a "task-local" area for multitasking?
12:31:29 <ThinkingInBinary> Quartus: And, if not, how about 256?
12:41:28 <ThinkingInBinary> Quartus: you there?
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13:35:01 <ThinkingInBinary> Quartus: you around?
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14:49:20 <Quartus> Hey.
14:54:20 <TheBlueWizard> hiya Quartus
14:54:25 <Quartus> Hey.
14:56:38 <TheBlueWizard> whassup?
14:57:10 <ThinkingInBinary> Quartus: hey
14:57:18 <ThinkingInBinary> Quartus: did you see my question earlier?
15:02:39 <ThinkingInBinary> Quartus: you there?
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15:05:02 <ThinkingInBinary> brb
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15:33:40 <Quartus> Sorry, was away. I saw your question -- I don't know. Depends on what data you need to be unique to each user session.
15:36:52 <ThinkingInBinary> Quartus: probably... data and return stack must be unique, terminal input buffer need not (just because only 1 thing can reliably interact with the terminal), user data space depends on if it causes problems.
15:37:04 <ThinkingInBinary> Quartus: Um, what else is there to worry about?
15:37:21 <Quartus> All session-specifics. Numeric output, BASE, anything else that varies.
15:37:48 <ThinkingInBinary> Yeah, so those too.  IIRC that's at most maybe 16 cells.
15:38:11 <ThinkingInBinary> Numeric output I'll think about.
15:38:21 <Quartus> It's the sort of thing you want to leave configurable so you can expand the area and rebuild your system if you need to.
15:38:39 <ThinkingInBinary> Perhaps I can have a generic "buffer" system, where tasks are allocated 256-byte chunks from the bottom and there are *also* dynamically allocable 256-byte buffers for other stuff.
15:38:59 <Quartus> I think you're trying to premptively solve problems you haven't encountered yet.
15:39:14 <ThinkingInBinary> Quartus: It's not.  It's gotta be either a multiple of 256 (preferably 256) or <=96.  I'm trying to use hardware memory access features to pull it off more easily.
15:39:27 <ThinkingInBinary> brb, gotta shovel snow
15:40:16 <Quartus> So it has to be a multiple of 256 -- leave it configurable anyway. Try it at 256 and if you run into a wall, increase it.
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18:26:24 <ThinkingInBinary> back
18:28:43 <ThinkingInBinary> Quartus: Basically, the uC can access at any one time: 1) a 96-byte sliding window of RAM, defaulting to the bottom 2) the memory-mapped IO ports 'n' stuff at the high end of ram, and 3) *one* 256-byte page of RAM.  Optimistically, using 2 pages would require a single extra page switch instruction before it, assuming I store the numbers of the two pages in variables in the 96-byte window (at the bottom of ram).  That basicall
18:28:56 <ThinkingInBinary> Quartus: If I could fit it all in 256 bytes, it would be much faster.
18:30:44 <Quiznos> i'd use a 6809e to develop a forth wearable computer!  64Kb space.
18:31:42 <ThinkingInBinary> Quartus: Basically it's designed for 8-bit addresses, so there's a 4-bit (8-bit, with top 4 bits = 0) "Bank Select Register" to change the current page.  To make life easier, there's something called "access RAM", which is a modifier to instructions that makes them address a "special" 256-byte area that is split between a 96 byte sliding window and a bunch of hardware registers.
18:31:45 <ThinkingInBinary> Quiznos: link?
18:32:00 <Quiznos> my mind.
18:32:01 <Quiznos> :)
18:33:46 <ThinkingInBinary> Quiznos: no I mean to the 6809e.  Who makes it?
18:33:53 <Quiznos> umm
18:33:56 <Plugh> Used to be Motorola
18:34:02 <Quiznos> motorola?  google knows
18:34:07 <Quiznos> find a lowP maker
18:34:14 <ThinkingInBinary> Quiznos: lowP?
18:34:34 <Plugh> I like the 6809. I modified one of the Motorola 6800 based D2 kits to use a 6809
18:34:54 <Quiznos> low power
18:35:02 <Quiznos> bin, you still in linux?
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18:39:58 <ThinkingInBinary> Quiznos: Motorola doesn't anymore, or so thinks Wikipedia.
18:40:07 <ThinkingInBinary> Quiznos: me?  yes.
18:40:14 <Quiznos> google for it
18:40:19 <Quiznos> it can still be found
18:40:29 <Quiznos> or find a work-alike
18:43:02 <ThinkingInBinary> Quiznos: Can't really find a clone; most are FPGA circuits that do it.
18:43:27 <Quiznos> try ebay
18:43:34 <ThinkingInBinary> Quiznos: bah, I'm not buying CPU's on ebay.
18:43:36 <Quiznos> or pull one out of an old coco box
18:43:59 <Quiznos> trs coco 1, 2, or 3
18:44:09 <Quiznos> they were '09 based
18:44:38 <Plugh> for a second i thought you were talking about a box of cereal. :-)
18:44:44 <ThinkingInBinary> Plugh: lol
18:44:49 <Quiznos> heh
18:44:58 <Quiznos> not quite
18:45:27 <ThinkingInBinary> Quiznos: What about 8051's?  How are they?
18:45:29 <Plugh> yeah. Haven't thought about one of those machines in a few years
18:46:02 <Quiznos> they're fine but IMO they arent in the same class as '09s also BUT i havent studied the '51
18:46:23 <ThinkingInBinary> Quiznos: What's so great about the 6809 anyway?  (I haven't looked at them much, I dunno.)
18:46:24 <Quiznos> the 80s were a different decade and I had more time to study hw then, now i try to remember
18:46:25 <Quiznos> :)
18:46:59 <Quiznos> it was based on 6502 but with some enhancements: the Page0 was made movable by a base register
18:47:05 <Quiznos> to cover the whole 64k range
18:47:08 <Quiznos> more regs
18:47:12 <Quiznos> more addr modes
18:47:18 <Quiznos> sexier
18:47:27 <Quiznos> and the '02 was VERY sexy 
18:47:29 <Quiznos> :)
18:47:57 <Quiznos> i still pine for a 65816 cpu and I think i have one but i havent opened up the ][gs yet
18:48:25 <Quiznos> can you imagine a intel processor with a completely implied addressing?
18:48:30 <Quiznos> like the 6502!?
18:48:31 <ThinkingInBinary> Quiznos: explain?
18:48:34 * Quiznos shudders
18:48:36 <Quiznos> mmm
18:48:38 <Quiznos> lol
18:48:50 <Quiznos> kinda like PIC coding on a 68k
18:49:03 <ThinkingInBinary> Quiznos: that doesn't really help, I've never used 68k's. ;-)
18:49:14 <Quiznos> too bad, gotta read about it then
18:49:21 <ThinkingInBinary> Quiznos: You mean as simple and elegant as PIC instructions, but with much more RAM 'n' stuff?
18:49:30 <Quiznos> also study the pdp family of opcodes too
18:49:33 <Quiznos> yea
18:50:10 <ThinkingInBinary> Quiznos: I mean the PIC's are pretty nice, although I dislike the fact that the new 18Fxx extensions only support the super awesome indirect addressing stuff on one of the indirect registers.
18:50:23 <Quiznos> not pic cpu's, position independent code
18:50:59 <ThinkingInBinary> Quiznos: oh lol
18:51:08 <Quiznos> heh
18:51:09 <ThinkingInBinary> Quiznos: I get it.
18:51:26 <ThinkingInBinary> Quiznos: It means you can copy code around in RAM without worrying about where it is.
18:51:41 <Quiznos> yea, adddres independent
18:51:54 <Quiznos> it's basic forth model, 0-addr
18:51:58 <Quiznos> mostly
18:52:01 <Quiznos> like real cpu
18:52:52 <Plugh> thought it was more of an enhanced 6800 CPU
18:53:09 <ThinkingInBinary> Quiznos: How do you program (i.e. get machine code onto) those?
18:53:18 <Quiznos> port something
18:53:28 <Quiznos> serially is how it starts (or used to)
18:53:47 <ThinkingInBinary> Quiznos: So you toggle in a bootloader and then go from there?
18:53:55 <Quiznos> that's so 70s
18:53:56 <Quiznos> lol
18:53:59 <ThinkingInBinary> Quiznos: lol indeed
18:54:04 <Quiznos> no one toggles anymore
18:54:07 <Quiznos> bahaha
18:54:20 <ThinkingInBinary> Quiznos: oh, do they use touchscreen front panels for their microprocessors?
18:54:22 <Quiznos> and no one IPLs anymore
18:54:28 <Quiznos> god knows
18:54:30 <Quiznos> ask him
18:55:01 <ThinkingInBinary> Quiznos: IPL?
18:55:16 <Quiznos> ibm term "initial program load"
18:55:20 <Quiznos> bios boot strap
18:55:20 <ThinkingInBinary> Quiznos: ah
18:56:02 <ThinkingInBinary> Quiznos: so how do you program them?
18:56:13 <ThinkingInBinary> Quiznos: separate EEPROM on the bus?
18:56:15 <Quiznos> i never did; i'm a reader
18:56:16 <Quiznos> lol
18:56:27 <ThinkingInBinary> Quiznos: lol, great load of help you are :-b
18:56:27 <Quiznos> i hope you dont think i lead you on
18:56:33 <Quiznos> i konw alot
18:56:35 <Quiznos> :)
18:56:38 <ThinkingInBinary> Quiznos: oh i know
18:56:39 <Quiznos> i dont tease :)
18:56:41 <Quiznos> rofl
18:56:49 <Quiznos> you azoomed too much i think 
18:56:52 <Plugh> how did you program which chips?
18:56:53 <Quiznos> i'm a thinker
18:57:05 <ThinkingInBinary> Plugh: 6809
18:57:06 <Quiznos> i started with basic on []+
18:57:22 <Plugh> develop the code and put it in to an EPROM
18:57:24 <Quiznos> ][+
18:57:32 <Quiznos> never burned roms 
18:57:36 <ThinkingInBinary> Plugh: ah, what device do you use to program the eeprom?  aren't they expensive?
18:57:51 <Plugh> No, not EEPROMs. EPROMs.
18:58:07 <ThinkingInBinary> Plugh: UV?
18:58:21 <Quiznos> ThinkingInBinary 6809 family are goodly mcu
18:58:27 <Plugh> Those devices that were 24 (and sometimes 28) pins with a little window on top so you could erase them with UV light.
18:58:34 <ThinkingInBinary> Plugh: Bah.
18:58:49 <ThinkingInBinary> Plugh: That's a PITA, I can get a PIC that can program itself!
18:58:55 <Plugh> You just needed an EPROM programmer.
18:58:57 <Quiznos> cool
18:59:01 <ThinkingInBinary> Quiznos: what?
18:59:08 <Quiznos> a self programming pic
18:59:09 <ThinkingInBinary> Quiznos: You didn't know that?
18:59:18 * Plugh gets it
18:59:22 <Quiznos> nop, i read about PICs but i dont like em
18:59:27 <Quiznos> too "small"
18:59:44 <Quiznos> there are plenty of LP cpu's that are more capabile
18:59:58 <Plugh> I still have a 10 gang EPROM programmer and UV light.
19:00:01 <ThinkingInBinary> Quiznos: Of course!  Just 5 or 6 pins needed.  power, gnd, data, clock, enable, and optionally a special programming voltage on the cheaper ones that need +13v to program.
19:00:12 <ThinkingInBinary> Quiznos: Have you *used* any of them?
19:00:16 <Quiznos> nop
19:00:21 <ThinkingInBinary> Quiznos: ok
19:00:25 <ThinkingInBinary> brb
19:01:07 <Plugh> I wish I still had my Threaded Interpreted Languages book still on my bookshelf and not in storage.
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19:01:32 <Quiznos> loeliger!
19:01:35 <Quiznos> i have it
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19:01:48 <Plugh> aka. the Byte Book of Forth?
19:01:51 <Quiznos> mine's in storage
19:01:55 <Quiznos> yep got that too
19:02:00 <ThinkingInBinary> Whoops, didn't mean to do that.
19:02:04 <Quiznos> in storage
19:02:28 <Quiznos> i had the two vol red and white set of forth intro that had the fig definitions in part 2
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19:02:38 <Quiznos> do you know the two?
19:02:43 <Plugh> Wasn't sure if it was the same book or not. I was using it for reference when I was starting to make a Forth for a 6809
19:02:46 <Quiznos> thin, paperback
19:02:59 <Quiznos> terrrible glue, the spines broke
19:03:08 <Plugh> I think I may just have only the hardcover BYTE book.
19:03:17 <Quiznos> i have that
19:03:23 <Quiznos> and their c books
19:03:26 <Plugh> Really nice book on forth
19:03:26 <Quiznos> small-c
19:03:48 <Quiznos> yea
19:04:37 <Plugh> Didn't get their book on small C
19:04:49 <Quiznos> i have a couple of them
19:05:05 <Plugh> Oh, yeah. the other small version of C back then was Mix C
19:05:08 <Quiznos> i wish i had access to the rfm series
19:05:24 <Quiznos> the univ that hosts, rochester forth series
19:05:33 <Quiznos> they had some very cool source to engines
19:06:20 <Quiznos> they had printed the source to a kernel tht was less than 10 screens
19:06:24 <Quiznos> it was exellent
19:06:44 <Plugh> nice
19:06:54 <Quiznos> i cant find the copy i made of it
19:07:12 <Quiznos> i got a copy of those reports via the local library
19:07:16 <Quiznos> inter lib loan
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19:15:06 <ThinkingInBinary> back
19:17:59 <Quiznos> i'm winding down now, getting fussy
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19:24:10 <ThinkingInBinary> Quiznos: What do you think of the 68HC11?
19:24:27 <Plugh> Another nice chip
19:24:27 <Quiznos> a very long-lived family
19:24:48 <Plugh> Last I checked, it looked like it is being replaced by the 'hc12
19:24:55 <Quiznos> they all and each have their strengths and weaknesses
19:25:05 <Quiznos> it's a matter of personal programming prefs
19:25:15 <ThinkingInBinary> Quiznos: I don't have any yet.
19:25:20 <Quiznos> i used to hand/mind-assemble 6502 asm
19:25:28 <Quiznos> then try then all or read about them
19:25:52 <Quiznos> Plugh remember the Levanthal books!?
19:26:13 <Quiznos> the guy couldnt write a booklet to safe his life
19:26:15 <Plugh> Not sure off hand
19:26:15 <Quiznos> bahahaha
19:26:25 <Quiznos> big thick monstrosities
19:26:29 <Quiznos> lol
19:26:45 <Plugh> Oh, yeah. The name is sounding familiar
19:26:58 <Quiznos> i have a couple of em
19:27:04 <Quiznos> somewhere
19:30:07 <Quiznos> ok i'm done folks
19:30:07 <Quiznos> nite
19:30:13 <Plugh> nite
19:32:32 <ThinkingInBinary> nite
19:40:30 <Quartus> I ran mix.
19:42:14 <Plugh> I didn't but was tempted to. IIRC, it was only about $10 at that time for the basic version of MIX
19:54:57 <Quartus> I still have it here somewhere, with the manual.
20:06:09 <ThinkingInBinary> I oughta go to bed.  See y'all tomorrow.
20:07:07 <ThinkingInBinary> G'nite.
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23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/06.02.12