00:00:00 --- log: started forth/06.02.04
00:23:14 --- join: amca_ (n=plump@as-bri-3-102.ozonline.com.au) joined #forth
00:48:14 --- quit: amca (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
00:53:44 --- quit: amca_ ("d34d")
01:09:49 --- join: yes (n=robert@ua-83-227-163-7.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) joined #forth
01:38:47 --- quit: yes ("leaving")
03:06:50 --- join: Cheery (i=Henri@a81-197-18-99.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #forth
04:56:33 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pete@0-3pool157-46.nas22.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth
06:01:08 <PoppaVic> Anyone happen to recall the name or url of the forth-variant that is supposed to use a database for "words"/vocs?
06:27:28 --- join: crc_ (i=crc@69.46.24.28) joined #forth
06:29:06 --- quit: crc (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
06:39:57 --- join: Invifer4 (i=WINNT@12-208-98-237.client.insightBB.com) joined #forth
07:49:20 --- join: tathi (n=josh@pdpc/supporter/bronze/tathi) joined #forth
07:49:35 --- quit: PoppaVic ("Pulls the pin...")
07:52:06 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pete@0-1pool47-214.nas30.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth
08:33:19 --- quit: danniken (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
10:13:43 --- quit: PoppaVic ("Pulls the pin...")
10:29:05 --- nick: crc_ -> crc
10:29:11 --- mode: ChanServ set +o crc
11:02:21 --- quit: Invifer4 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
11:04:17 --- join: ThinkingInBinary (n=tom@pool-68-163-192-68.bos.east.verizon.net) joined #forth
11:07:20 <Quartus> Hey ThinkingInBinary.
11:07:41 <ThinkingInBinary> Quartus: hey
11:09:25 <Quartus> Re loop-montoring -- not feasible under Quartus Forth.  But a reset is quick and painless, if you manage to hang the device. Alternatively, put an EKEY? clause in your loop to exit if there's any event activity.
11:12:00 <ThinkingInBinary> Ah.  Basically you would be implicitly putting an EKEY? every so often, so it's easier to do myself.
11:12:26 <ThinkingInBinary> Yeah, the E2 has a reset button big enough to press with the stylus tip itself!
11:14:03 <Quartus> Handy :)
11:14:36 <ThinkingInBinary> Yeah.
11:14:49 <ThinkingInBinary> Probably the software devs held the hardware devs at gunpoint and insisted ;-)
11:24:54 <Quartus> Maybe :)
12:30:27 --- join: snoopy_1711 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-183-205.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth
12:37:48 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
12:38:06 --- nick: snoopy_1711 -> Snoopy42
13:29:59 --- quit: uiuiuiuiu (Remote closed the connection)
13:30:04 --- join: uiuiuiuiu (i=ian@dslb-084-057-243-024.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth
14:07:39 --- join: segher (n=segher@dslb-084-056-149-208.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth
14:23:08 --- quit: segher_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
14:27:40 --- quit: crc (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
14:28:04 --- join: crc (i=crc@69.46.24.28) joined #forth
14:31:13 --- quit: Cheery ("Leaving")
14:44:59 --- mode: ChanServ set +o crc
14:56:07 --- part: sproingie left #forth
16:28:18 --- join: lw4fc4 (n=brettmur@203-97-102-229.cable.telstraclear.net) joined #forth
16:31:18 --- part: lw4fc4 left #forth
17:27:06 --- join: amca (n=plump@as-bri-1-23.ozonline.com.au) joined #forth
17:28:24 <amca> Morning
17:42:34 <Raystm2> hi amca :)
17:42:57 * crc notices a bit of activity here
17:43:43 <amca> Raystm2: Hi Ray :). How are you today?
17:43:58 <amca> crc: Nothing happening here...move on....move on...
17:44:00 <amca> ;)
17:45:12 --- part: crc left #forth
17:45:23 <amca> lol
17:46:02 --- join: crc (i=crc@pdpc/supporter/active/crc) joined #forth
17:46:02 --- mode: ChanServ set +o crc
17:46:14 <crc> happy now?  ;)
17:46:49 <segher> activity?  here?  are you sure you're not hallucinating?
17:47:13 <amca> crc: Happy? How can I be happy! You abandoned us! :P
17:47:49 <crc> segher: no; I am tired, so hallucinations are quite possible
17:47:55 <amca> segher: Watch out for the miniture pink elephant at your feet. We dont want the moss carpet getting any more dirty than it is.
17:48:18 <amca> Apart from hallucinations, how is everyone?
17:48:26 <crc> pretty good
17:48:38 * crc released RetroForth 9 as the stable release today
17:49:03 <ThinkingInBinary> hallucinations?  ACTIVITY?  whoa, what're y'all smoking?!
17:49:31 <amca> sweet :)
17:49:35 <Raystm2> um Echelon. don't forget the primary reason to be paranoid.
17:49:37 * amca dl's rf9
17:50:00 * Raystm2 is waiting for crc to say that the tarball is updated.
17:50:07 <crc> Raystm2: it's been updated; sorry
17:50:10 <amca> terrorist, Islam, Jihad, bomb, subvert, revolution.
17:50:16 * crc updated it as soon as the bugs were fixed
17:50:22 <Raystm2> :)
17:50:27 <Raystm2> I new you did.
17:50:41 <Raystm2> thanks for verification, though
17:50:54 <segher> there is no reason to be paranoid -- it won't stop them all from being after you
17:51:07 * Raystm2 's new drug of choice, rx-core.
17:51:08 <amca> Anyone remember off hand what the HTML Entity for < is?
17:51:12 <amca> lol
17:51:15 <ThinkingInBinary> amca: &gt;
17:51:19 <segher> &lt;
17:51:19 <amca> thanks
17:51:22 <ThinkingInBinary> amca: wait no &lt;
17:51:25 <amca> hehe
17:51:29 <ThinkingInBinary> amca: sorry
17:51:31 <amca> ThinkingInBinary: What are you taking? ;)
17:51:51 <ThinkingInBinary> amca: Me?  I'm smoking J2ME.  Quite a wild trip.
17:52:07 <segher> is that like H5N1?
17:52:12 <ThinkingInBinary> segher: I dunno.
17:52:21 <Raystm2> wife about to leave for work, must acknowledge her existance temporarily, please stand-by.
17:52:21 <ThinkingInBinary> segher: Smells sorta like stale, overengineered coffee.
17:52:24 <segher> i wouldn't smoke that if i were you!
17:52:27 <ThinkingInBinary> Raystm2: ;-)
17:52:41 <ThinkingInBinary> segher: Yeah, well, gimme a cell phone with native FORTH support and I won't have to. :-b
17:52:55 <segher> interesting you say that :-)
17:53:04 <crc> ThinkingInBinary: get a Treo, install Quartus and be happy :)
17:53:14 <ThinkingInBinary> crc: Treo = expensive.
17:53:21 <ThinkingInBinary> crc: Plus Qartus is $100.
17:53:27 <ThinkingInBinary> crc: s/Qartus/Quartus/;
17:53:34 <crc> ThinkingInBinary: you can always use the evaluation version
17:53:48 <ThinkingInBinary> I'd like to build my own small (PDA-sized) FORTH computer, using something like an AVR or ARM CPU.  That'd be an awesome project.
17:53:56 <crc> mmm
17:54:04 <ThinkingInBinary> crc: It'd be sweet.
17:54:13 <crc> there's a varient of Pygmy for ARM 
17:54:16 <segher> use an msp430, cheaper _and_ more powerful :-)
17:54:26 <segher> very well suited to forth
17:54:28 <ThinkingInBinary> segher: me?
17:54:30 * Raystm2 wonders if there is a way to do that with an IGNITE chip?
17:55:02 <segher> thinkinginbinary: well you asked the question, eh?  :-)
17:55:11 <ThinkingInBinary> segher: oh
17:55:17 <ThinkingInBinary> segher: Do they have lotsa RAM?
17:55:23 <segher> nope
17:55:37 <ThinkingInBinary> segher: Oh.  I'd like something like 32K program memory and 32K RAM.
17:55:40 <segher> some of-em support external ram, though
17:55:46 <segher> it's a 16-bitter though
17:55:51 <ThinkingInBinary> segher: 16-bit is good.
17:55:59 <segher> 16 regs, too :-)
17:56:33 <segher> most models have more like 2kB or 4kB of internal ram -- some have more, and some support external ram
17:56:43 <segher> for most applications you don't need it at all
17:56:56 <amca> crc: I like the changelog that you have
17:57:19 <segher> esp. if you run the compiler on the host machine, and only the "real stuff" on the target box
17:57:34 <ThinkingInBinary> segher: pbForth (for the Lego brick) runs in 32K, with a full interactive serial (IR) console
17:57:37 <amca> crc: Splitting the downloads into Primary and Additional is good too
17:57:45 <crc> amca: thanks :)
17:57:48 <ThinkingInBinary> segher: Nah, it's gotta have a compiler built in, and text input so I can *code* forth anywhere.
17:58:01 * crc has been reorganizing the downloads; easier maintenance in the end
17:58:08 <ThinkingInBinary> segher: the ARM ones (TMS470) look better suited for this.
17:58:08 <amca> ThinkingInBinary: I know what you mean 
17:58:24 <ThinkingInBinary> amca: Which thing that I meant?
17:58:43 <segher> ah, you want a pda really
17:58:47 <ThinkingInBinary> segher: Not really.
17:58:49 <amca> Yeah, having it divided into "Native" and "Hosted" makes it less intimidating for me anyway.
17:59:11 <amca> ThinkingInBinary: Well I wanna do cheap coding on the run for fun, myself.
17:59:13 <ThinkingInBinary> segher: But I want something better than all the microcontrollers with 4K or less RAM.
17:59:19 <segher> well, if you want to code "anywhere", you'll need battery-powered at the very least
17:59:25 <ThinkingInBinary> segher: Yeah of course.
17:59:34 <segher> and its own input/ouput devices
17:59:37 <ThinkingInBinary> segher: Probably just NIMH rechargeables.
17:59:41 <amca> ThinkingInBinary: So I bought a TI-84+ and am gonna go about implementing a Forth on it to do so
17:59:44 <ThinkingInBinary> segher: LCD (maybe touch screen)
17:59:46 <segher> so at the very least -- a pda.
17:59:51 <ThinkingInBinary> amca: I have a TI-89 but link port's busted (so no ASM)
17:59:56 <amca> :/
17:59:58 <amca> bumer
17:59:59 <ThinkingInBinary> segher: and a chording keyboard with buttons on the back.
18:00:12 <segher> good plan
18:00:21 <amca> ThinkingInBinary: It runs m68k doesnt it?
18:00:32 <segher> if you can learn how to use those -- it's going to make the device really really usable
18:00:37 <ThinkingInBinary> amca: Yeah.  The 89's a beautiful machine though.  Nothing like a CAS that fits in your pocket.  You know they made that just so ppl could use a TI-92 class calc on standardized tests?  (The 92 has a QWERTY keyboard which is banned).
18:00:37 <segher> much more than most
18:00:44 <ThinkingInBinary> segher: I'm willing to learn it.
18:00:49 <segher> takes a bit of an effort to learn how to use it though
18:01:34 <amca> ThinkingInBinary: You arent able to resolder the port or such?
18:01:49 <ThinkingInBinary> amca: Haven't tried yet, gotta find the port again :-b
18:02:38 * Raystm2 is daddy-Taxi! brb.
18:02:43 <ThinkingInBinary> Raystm2: :-)
18:04:23 * amca finds it hard on the computer to remember that GF's still like to have their existance acknowledged >.>
18:05:10 * ThinkingInBinary wonders why Konqueror froze until he typed "sensors" at a shell.  For some reason my system will partially lock up until I read the temp sensors.
18:05:27 <amca> oops
18:05:38 <amca> the CPU sensors?
18:05:53 <ThinkingInBinary> amca: CPU and mobo.
18:06:11 <ThinkingInBinary> Anyway... I found one MSP430 with 10K ram and 48K program memory.
18:06:31 <amca> What kinda chip is a MSP430?
18:07:02 <ThinkingInBinary> amca: just a sec
18:07:33 <ThinkingInBinary> amca: my fingernail caught the "V" key on my keyboard and yanked it off :-b
18:07:42 <amca> lol
18:07:47 <ThinkingInBinary> amca: http://focus.ti.com/mcu/docs/overview.tsp?familyId=342&templateId=5246&navigationId=11466&path=templatedata/cm/mcuovw/data/msp430_ovw
18:09:50 <ThinkingInBinary> amca: Ever built electronic stuff?
18:10:33 <amca> amca: Only Breadboard stuff and a bit of soldering to fix connections
18:10:45 <segher> amca: it's a really nice small small mostly-risc-but-not-quite microcontroller
18:10:50 <segher> really low power
18:10:58 <ThinkingInBinary> amca: I'll probably breadboard this first, and then get a PCB made somewhere.
18:11:04 * amca wants to do more but needs to concentrate on the higher priority of actually coding for a change
18:12:29 <amca> ThinkingInBinary: Am I right saying Breadboard, where it means a piece of plastic with holes in it for screws to secure components in, as opposed to prototype boards with the small holes to poke solid wires and components onto?
18:13:22 <amca> What is a mixed signal processor?
18:13:27 <ThinkingInBinary> amca: I dunno, screws?  I think a breadboard is when it's a plastic grid of holes that are connected beneath the surface in certain ways, and fits a DIP chip across the middle.
18:13:35 <ThinkingInBinary> amca: Um, probably got lotsa analog stuff.
18:14:08 <amca> Does that mean the pins can double as digital and analog, or that it has discrete analog and digital pins?
18:14:30 <ThinkingInBinary> I dunno.
18:15:38 <amca> :)
18:15:45 * amca tries to find its datasheet
18:16:25 <amca> Will you use the one with ROM or with OTP?
18:16:31 <ThinkingInBinary> amca: Flash
18:16:36 <ThinkingInBinary> Hmm...
18:16:54 <amca> With LCD right?
18:17:14 <ThinkingInBinary> amca: No.
18:17:22 <ThinkingInBinary> amca: I'll just be hooking up a graphical LCD module.
18:17:24 <amca> FLASH, No LCD then?
18:17:54 <ThinkingInBinary> amca: yeah
18:19:08 <amca> crc: What were/was the bugs in syscalls?
18:21:14 <amca> ThinkingInBinary: Do you have a specific Part Number in mind?
18:21:23 <ThinkingInBinary> amca: No, not really.  I'm at Freescale's site now.
18:21:49 <ThinkingInBinary> amca: Lemme check, there was one I liked.
18:22:37 <ThinkingInBinary> amca: MSP430F1611  
18:22:54 <crc> amca: there was a minor bug in "bye" and another bug relating to spaces in path/file names
18:23:24 <ThinkingInBinary> amca: I'm looking for something with more RAM though.
18:25:10 <amca> ThinkingInBinary: tnx
18:25:52 <amca> crc: Would it be easier to tell me more details or easier to point me to the code change?
18:26:30 <crc> the bug with bye was caused by the vocabulary construct
18:27:01 <crc> I had to move a private variable to the start of the vocabulary, rather than the end
18:27:12 <amca> Hmm
18:27:27 <crc> (at the end, it seems to cause some minor confusion to the dictionary pointers)
18:27:27 <amca> Why was that? Was it being hidden by another?
18:27:34 <amca> Ah
18:27:37 <amca> odd
18:27:46 <crc> it appears that "bye" was overwriting it
18:27:56 * crc isn't sure why; he will be looking into it
18:28:08 <amca> interesting
18:28:43 <crc> the problem with paths/filenames is more straightforward
18:29:01 <crc> retro skips the first argument in the command line, and evaluates the rest
18:29:10 <amca> oops
18:29:12 <crc> (the first argument being the executable name)
18:29:27 <crc> with spaces, it tried to eval part of the path to the executable
18:29:29 <amca> Thats okay then isnt it?
18:29:39 <crc> it gives error messages at startup
18:29:55 <amca> Ah, I see
18:29:56 <crc> annoying, but not serious
18:30:22 <crc> I added a check in the windows code to look for a ", skipping up to that or the first space, as needed
18:30:31 <amca> So you had to have more complex parsing, or did you just change how it was passed to the core?
18:30:34 --- join: yoyofreeman (n=root@219.144.168.221) joined #forth
18:30:39 <amca> I see
18:30:58 <crc> I use the Windows GetCommandLineA function, I have to deal with the way it sends back the data :(
18:31:04 * crc dislikes Windows
18:31:18 <amca> hehe
18:31:22 * amca hugs crc
18:31:33 <crc> the API's are screwed up at best
18:31:36 <crc> thanks :)
18:31:54 <Raystm2> Daddy-Taxi, the lamp is out. I'm back.
18:31:57 <Raystm2> catching up.
18:32:02 <amca> Hopefully the API in Vista will be much cleaner
18:32:15 <crc> *cough* .NET *cough*
18:32:18 <amca> Run, Ray, Run!
18:32:26 <amca> oh...bugger
18:32:27 <crc> doesn't play well with native machine code :(
18:33:08 <crc> Win32 is slowly being deemphasized, which is good, but in favor of a more restricted API, which is not
18:33:11 <amca> So Vista wont allow you to directly access the machine, only the VM?
18:33:21 <crc> Win32 apps will still run
18:33:44 <amca> Directly or on a vm?
18:33:46 <crc> but I *think* that they will slowly shift Win32 to an emulation in favor of .NET
18:33:49 <crc> amca: not sure
18:33:51 <amca> (like 16 bit Dos was anyway)
18:33:57 * crc has no access to Vista yet
18:33:59 <amca> hmm
18:34:11 <amca> Have you compared the JVM with the .NET VM?
18:34:18 <crc> not lately
18:34:22 * amca has only had a little look at the JVM
18:34:48 <amca> I was just wondering if the architecture is based on the JVM or if it is more x86 based
18:34:49 <crc> I haven't used Java since it was at 1.0.2, before the Java2 mess and Swing and all that
18:35:27 <amca> The advantage of MS going .NET is that it will easily be able to dump Intel for whoever it wants in future
18:36:55 --- quit: ThinkingInBinary (Nick collision from services.)
18:37:11 --- join: ThinkingInBinary (n=tom@pool-68-163-153-169.bos.east.verizon.net) joined #forth
18:37:29 <ThinkingInBinary> Hey, sorry, net connection died.
18:37:36 <amca> oops
18:38:03 <amca> Which means that if they want, in future, perhaps MS will switch to PPC :D
18:38:33 <crc> that'd be interesting to see
18:38:46 <crc> Windows NT 4 had a PPC port I think
18:40:42 <amca> That would be good for me. I'd much rather learn PPC asm than x86
18:40:59 * crc would rather learn ARM assembly than PPC at this point
18:41:24 <amca> ARM would be simpler than PPC wouldnt it?
18:41:28 <crc> actually I want to learn how to write microcode for the x86; there are instructions that allow loading a custom microcode
18:41:31 <crc> amca: should be
18:41:43 <amca> hmm
18:42:07 <amca> So does that mean you could change MOV to mean ADD if you wanted?
18:42:08 * crc could see changing an x86 instruction set into a forth instruction set :)
18:42:12 <crc> amca: yes
18:42:20 <crc> remap, add new opcodes, etc
18:42:30 <amca> w00t!
18:42:30 <crc> access all 40 general purpose registers 
18:42:40 <amca> you could make it a stack machine! :D
18:43:05 <amca> Of course you couldnt use intel asm
18:43:24 <amca> like you would essentially be building your own form of ASM, right?
18:43:31 <crc> yup
18:43:41 <amca> sweet
18:43:47 <amca> Any idea where I can read about this?
18:44:01 * amca is suddenly more interested in learning some x86 >.>
18:44:06 * crc has only seen a few mentions of it, still looking for more details
18:44:17 <amca> let me know if you find anything out please
18:44:25 <crc> ok
18:45:24 <amca> ThinkingInBinary: Seems one of the IO pins (P6) doubles as an analog pin.
18:45:46 --- quit: segher (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
18:50:34 --- join: danniken (i=CapStone@70.252.93.53) joined #forth
18:52:39 --- quit: danniken (Client Quit)
18:54:01 <amca> crc: Do you know when reprogramming the microcode came in? (what chip it started with)
18:56:59 <crc> Pentium or Pentium Pro
18:57:31 <amca> That early? cool
18:57:51 <amca> That means I can use some of my old machines to experiment with if I can find out how to do it :)
18:58:35 <amca> Seen http://kerneltrap.org/node/2678?
19:02:16 <crc> no, looking now
19:03:04 <amca> I dont know if it is of any use at all
19:05:13 <ThinkingInBinary> amca: You can use new ones; microcode isn't permanent.
19:06:11 <amca> ThinkingInBinary: New whats?
19:06:19 <ThinkingInBinary> amca: Computers.
19:06:28 <ThinkingInBinary> brb
19:06:32 <ThinkingInBinary> amca: i.e. it won't destroy them
19:06:41 <amca> ThinkingInBinary: Ah, but I only have crappy old compuyters spare
19:08:06 <ThinkingInBinary> back
19:15:42 --- join: amca_ (n=plump@as-bri-4-1-158.ozonline.com.au) joined #forth
19:16:04 <amca_> Oops
19:16:08 <amca_> Did I miss anything?
19:16:38 <ThinkingInBinary> amca_: not much
19:16:46 <ThinkingInBinary> amca_: if amca is registered you ought to ghost it
19:17:21 <amca_> ThinkingInBinary: I know. Im just lazy >.>
19:17:35 --- quit: amca (Nick collision from services.)
19:17:37 <ThinkingInBinary> amca_: lol PLEASE 
19:17:38 --- nick: amca_ -> amca
19:17:40 <ThinkingInBinary> amca_: thanks
19:17:47 <ThinkingInBinary> amca: I hate having to complete it with an extra step.
19:18:22 <amca> hehe
19:21:42 * amca is away: shower
19:33:32 --- quit: madgarden (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
19:56:18 * amca is back (gone 00:34:35)
19:56:35 <amca> Anything exciting happen in the 30 minutes I was gone?
19:57:49 <Raystm2> yes! I got into my account in rx-core.org and now i'm starting to update colorforth.info, so the rest of the world will know what I have come to believe is a remarkable, minimalist system! :)
19:58:46 * Raystm2 awaits the day that a cf trainor is built ontop of the Rx core, so that people can learn how to make cf run on their own machines.
19:59:06 <amca> I thought rx was rf not cf?
20:00:06 <crc> rf is a superset of rx
20:00:14 <crc> ray wants to build a cf over rx
20:05:27 <amca> Interesting
20:05:42 <Raystm2> Yes, indeed, I do. I think that there is a way to do that, and that Glypher is a great example of such a thing.
20:07:15 <amca> Is rx a forth library or a asm/binary library?
20:07:49 <crc> rx is a forth system built as a library
20:07:58 <amca> ok
20:07:59 <crc> it lacks I/O functionality
20:08:10 <crc> but is otherwise complete enough for serious use
20:08:23 <amca> I thought that cf required it to be cf from the gound up for some reason
20:08:33 * crc has C bindings for Linux/FreeBSD and a Windows compatible DLL for Rx
20:09:45 * crc notes that I440r is lurking; he'll quit mentioning C now :)
20:12:08 * amca wonders why it is not a good idea to mention C in I440r's presence
20:12:30 <crc> I440r is not a fan of C
20:12:43 <amca> Know why?
20:12:47 <crc> no
20:13:14 <Raystm2> amca, this is true, cf is built tightly to the hardware. 
20:13:45 --- quit: ThinkingInBinary (Remote closed the connection)
20:13:47 <amca> Raystm2: So how will building cf on rx affect your cf?
20:14:04 <Raystm2> amca: the  idea of cf on the rx core is to provide a way for people to get a feel for what has been done, in plain hardware and pentium ops alone.
20:14:31 <Raystm2> this way, they know what to shoot for when the build there own cf.
20:15:16 <amca> Ive been more and more getting as I think about it that forth is better suited to embedded (whether hardware or in an application) rather than general purpose coding.
20:15:21 <Raystm2> Information wise, there is a "critical mass" of how much you need to know to have a cf on your machine, for every hardware combination there exists.
20:15:44 <amca> StrongForth may be an exception though.
20:16:10 <amca> Raystm2: So you are using tx to abstract the h/ware a bit?
20:16:15 <amca> tx = rx
20:16:39 --- join: madgarden (n=madgarde@London-HSE-ppp3546494.sympatico.ca) joined #forth
20:17:23 <Raystm2> amca: well, retroforth really, but that is ultimately the rx-core + the libs you need for your system.
20:17:39 <amca> <_3FG_> thats why I like asm
20:17:39 <amca> <_3FG_> mistakes delete the program for you
20:18:00 <Raystm2> retroforth has proven itself a system that can run on most popular systems.
20:18:23 <Raystm2> hehe
20:18:46 <Raystm2> and the way that crc has modularized everyting...
20:18:46 <amca> What about unpopular ones? dont they deserve attention? Just ecause theyt arent famous doesnt mean they dont have feelings!
20:18:54 <Raystm2> this just makes things eaiser.
20:19:14 <crc> amca: I have ported retro to various less popular platforms in the past
20:20:30 <amca> Like the Waffle CPU?
20:20:42 <crc> OSes, not chips
20:20:53 <crc> Rx/RetroForth is x86 only at present
20:21:05 <crc> though I am slowly working on an ARM version
20:21:21 <Raystm2> a cf written ontop or retroforth will be a consistent example for many ports.
20:21:27 <Raystm2> or = of.
20:21:55 <amca> Serious;ly though, what unpopular platforms have you ported retro to? 
20:21:56 <Raystm2> once people get a feel for how this thing works, then writeing there own will be that much easier.
20:22:42 <crc> amca: L4ka::Pistachio, Dex4u, Syllable, SCO OpenServer
20:22:50 <Raystm2> but even if you don't tighten things to your hardware, a retroCF will make cross platform and native cf-blocks that can be used by any colorforth.
20:23:42 * crc would like to port it to NewOS sometime
20:23:53 <amca> NewOS?
20:23:55 <crc> and bring back the BeOS port
20:24:05 <amca> Mind you I havent heard of any of the others either...
20:24:14 <crc> http://newos.org/
20:24:19 <crc> see :)
20:24:45 <crc> http://syllable.org/
20:24:51 <crc> http://dex4u.com
20:25:02 * crc won't link to SCO
20:25:21 <Raystm2> can't blame you crc :)
20:25:22 <amca> lol
20:25:42 <crc> http://l4ka.org/projects/pistachio/
20:26:06 <amca> Now for this question: Why? The hack value of it?
20:26:15 <crc> partially
20:26:34 <crc> I encounter a range of OSes each day; it's nice to have the same language on each
20:26:45 <crc> the more obscure things are for hack value
20:27:13 * crc did the dex4u port to give the developers of that OS a useful language once they started making progress
20:27:16 <Raystm2> crc reduces the differences in machines :)
20:27:45 <amca> heh
20:28:17 <amca> How do you encounter a range of OSs everyday? What allows you to do that?
20:28:36 * Raystm2 encounters a few OS's every day.
20:28:49 <crc> FreeBSD on my main box, BeOS on my old laptop, Linux on my servers, Windows at work
20:28:57 <Raystm2> SCO Unix and many versions of windows.
20:29:03 <amca> What about the more obcure ones I mean
20:29:16 <crc> those are mostly hack value
20:29:26 <crc> I used syllable on the laptop for a few months
20:29:40 <crc> L4ka was an alternative to the Native port
20:30:12 <crc> mostly it provided some proof of concept work for kc5tja's FTS/Forth project
20:31:35 <amca> dex4u is used to use a computer as an appliance mainly?
20:31:42 <crc> I have no idea
20:31:48 <crc> I don't follow it much anymore
20:32:02 <amca> k
20:32:33 <amca> Do you know what the main reasons these OSs are created for?
20:33:19 <crc> Syllable is a fork of AtheOS, it's aimed at being a BeOS-like desktop system
20:33:38 <amca> Kinda like an updated BeOS?
20:33:47 <crc> Dex4u is a fork/rewrite of V2_OS 0.6x started by a fan of the old OS
20:33:49 <crc> amca: sort of
20:33:58 <amca> BeOS was aimed mainly at multimedia type ppl wasnt it?
20:34:08 <crc> it's different in some ways, closer to a normal *nix, but not using X
20:34:12 <crc> yeah
20:34:26 <crc> Haiku is a rewrite of BeOS R5 (which I love even now)
20:34:44 <crc> L4 is a microkernel, done for research purposes
20:34:59 <crc> $CO is done to make money
20:35:34 <amca> What? SCO doing something purely to make money? Surely not!
20:37:53 <amca> What is so special about the CTRL-ALT-DEL combo? Does it have a special interrupt or somehting, or is it just a feature of the BIOS keyboard driver?
20:38:04 <amca> or DOS kbd driver
20:38:40 <crc> generates some kind of interrupt I think
20:40:29 * amca checks his IBM PC Interrupt list
20:43:22 <Raystm2> in WindowsXP CTRL-ALT-DEL only opens the task manager window.
20:43:50 <Raystm2> but in previous WIndows versions, this would halt programs some how.
20:44:47 <amca> In Win9X/ME it runs the "End Program/Shutdown" Dialog
20:44:55 <Raystm2> ya.
20:47:54 <Raystm2> from FOLDOC:
20:47:56 <Raystm2> <jargon> (Or "three-finger salute", Vulcan death grip; from the old "Star Trek" TV series via Commodore Amiga hackers) The keyboard combination that forces a soft boot or jump to ROM monitor (on machines that support such a feature).
20:47:56 <Raystm2> On an Amiga this is done with Ctrl/Right Amiga/Left Amiga; on IBM PCs and many microcomputers it is Ctrl/Alt/Del; on Suns, L1-A; on some Macintoshes, it is <Cmd>-<Power switch>! Silicon Graphics users are obviously the most dextrous however, as these machines use the five-finger combination: Left Shift/Left Ctrl/Left Alt/Keypad Divide/F12.
20:47:56 <Raystm2> Compare quadruple bucky. 
20:50:59 <amca> "INT 9H -- KEYBOARD [...] Upon Return from INT 9H[:] Interrupt returns no values. But certain keys will cause this interrupt to invoke other routines or to fill in information in the BIOS RAM data area."
20:51:13 <amca> I think ctrl-alt-del would be dealt with there
20:51:36 <crc> goodnight
20:52:12 <Raystm2> goodnight.
20:53:23 <amca> night
20:58:13 <amca> "When you get to the point where you really understand your computer, it's probably obsolete."
21:10:58 <amca> http://www.isr.ist.utl.pt/library/docs/ng2htm-1.05/ng210d0.html has detailed info on int 9h handling :)
23:36:20 --- quit: amca (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
23:37:03 --- join: amca (n=plump@as-bri-4-1-149.ozonline.com.au) joined #forth
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/06.02.04