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00:03:27 --- topic: 'Welcome to #forth. We discuss the Forth programming language, simplicity, and a variety of technical subjects. The rules are simple: don't spam, don't troll, and please speak English.'
00:03:27 --- topic: set by Quartus on [Sat Jan 21 17:32:55 2006]
00:03:27 --- names: list (clog Teratogen warpzero segher uiuiuiuiu rsyncx jungledog @crc Snoopy42 rehges Invifer4 madwork saon I440r Raystm2 madgarden Quartus PurpleSmurf skylan)
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00:18:38 <charles`> when doing a [?do]  [loop] how do I access the interpretive equiv of i?
00:34:26 --- nick: PurpleSmurf -> Quiznos
01:46:21 <I440r> 455the what ?
01:46:27 <I440r> the what?
01:46:27 <I440r> even
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14:39:02 <ThinkingInBinary> Hey.
14:39:08 <crc> hi
14:39:12 <ThinkingInBinary> Quartus: how are your vocs and semantics today?
14:39:15 <ThinkingInBinary> crc: hey
14:39:52 <Quartus> Without the ancient and venerable 44-year-old PoppaVic, my vocs and semantics are still as communist as ever.
14:39:58 <tathi> lol
14:40:03 <Lars_G> "Please excuse Tommy for being absent yesterday. He had diarrhea, and his boots leak."
14:40:18 <Lars_G> Quartus: Good good, we need good socialists in the brave new world.
14:40:31 <Quartus> Today he was in ##c claiming intimate knowledge of the PDP-11.  He was 9 when the PDP-11 came out.
14:40:32 <ThinkingInBinary> Quartus: only 44?  he sounded at least 95!
14:40:37 <Lars_G> Not that kind of capitalist nazis that charge $99 or close for theyr work....
14:40:39 <ThinkingInBinary> Quartus: lol
14:40:45 <ThinkingInBinary> Lars_G: ;-)
14:40:59 <Quartus> Lars_G, there's a student/educator discount available :)
14:41:11 <Lars_G> Quartus: So what? I had a qx-10 at 11 years old, and a few years after it came out
14:41:19 <Lars_G> Quartus: I'm not a student right now :)
14:41:43 <ThinkingInBinary> Quartus: I have an idea.  I want to get some sort of small microprocessor, a pinch of memory, a bit of EEPROM, an LCD, a touch-screen, a few buttons and a few LED's, and build a small PDA-like gizmo, and implement forth for it so I can program forth on a system I built, anywhere.
14:41:51 <Quartus> Lars, if it were anyone other than him, I might even buy that he'd actually ever seen a PDP-11.
14:42:03 <Lars_G> Ok.
14:42:07 <ThinkingInBinary> Quartus: and perhaps if it turns out well, I can write a GUI and turn it into something vaguely like a PDA.
14:42:12 <ThinkingInBinary> Quartus: PoppaVic is truly insane.
14:42:13 <Quartus> ThinkingInBinary, that sounds like a great deal of work when you could just buy a Plam, but hey, everybody needs a hobby :)
14:42:30 <ThinkingInBinary> Quartus: I think it'd be fun to build a computer.  Besides, I HATE Graffiti 2!
14:42:30 <Lars_G> Personally I'm a lover of collecting machines, specially old machines, so I would have a pdp-11 if I had the room for it and found a working one for cheap
14:42:46 <ThinkingInBinary> Quartus: I could write Palm and say "I built my own PDA because I hate G2 so much!"
14:43:12 <Lars_G> ThinkingInBinary: :D
14:43:23 <Quartus> ThinkingInBinary, yes. Today he started haranguing a guy from France in ##c, after a few lines of which the guy said 'arrete de raconter de la merde', which I found quite appropriate. :)
14:43:28 <ThinkingInBinary> Quartus: besides, I can't write Forth for the Palm, because I'd be duplicating your work.
14:43:35 <Quartus> ThinkingInBinary, you can fit G1 back onto a G2 device.
14:43:35 <Lars_G> ThinkingInBinary: And they'll write back saying "We own the term PDA and all patents regarding PDAs, destroy it or be tried"
14:43:47 <ThinkingInBinary> Quartus: what do the first five words mean?
14:43:59 <Quartus> It means 'stop talking shit'.
14:44:02 <ThinkingInBinary> Lars_G: Okay, I'll call it a "portable development workstation".  That's really what I want to make anyway.
14:44:08 <ThinkingInBinary> Quartus: lol
14:44:13 <Lars_G> ThinkingInBinary: What are you basing it on?
14:44:13 <ThinkingInBinary> Quartus: not the E2 I think.
14:44:15 <Lars_G> arm?
14:44:33 <Quartus> ThinkingInBinary, yes, there's a third-party bit of code that lets you customize back to g1.
14:44:59 <ThinkingInBinary> Lars_G: I dunno yet.  Maybe.  A lot of the decision will be based on my ability to work with the CPU as a relative electronics novice.  (No surface-mount stuff, etc...)  For that reason Microchip PIC processors are nice, because they're in DIP packages.
14:45:05 <ThinkingInBinary> Quartus: oh.  tealscript?
14:45:09 <Quartus> ThinkingInBinary, right.
14:45:24 <Lars_G> ThinkingInBinary: Anyhow you're welcome in ##microcontrollers if you want to chat more on the subject too :)
14:45:31 <Lars_G> Might find some help there.... sometimes
14:45:32 <ThinkingInBinary> Quartus: true.  but $$$.  I'm not buying a PDA and then paying extra to get back the *older* version of the input method that I liked more.
14:45:47 <Quartus> ThinkingInBinary, life is sacrifice. :)
14:45:52 <Lars_G> What I want is a forth CPU, I wonder if I could get an fpga
14:45:53 <ThinkingInBinary> Quartus: Yeah.
14:45:58 <ThinkingInBinary> Lars_G: OOOOOH!
14:46:01 <ThinkingInBinary> Lars_G: AWESOME IDEA!
14:46:10 <tathi> ThinkingInBinary: Microchip's PICs are microCONTROLLERS, not microprocessors, aren't they?
14:46:15 <ThinkingInBinary> Lars_G: I could design the CPU too!
14:46:19 <ThinkingInBinary> tathi: Technically yes.
14:46:28 <ThinkingInBinary> tathi: Just means I don't need to hook up RAM and stuff.
14:46:40 <Lars_G> ThinkingInBinary: Btw I preffer AVR over PIC personally :)
14:46:42 <tathi> ThinkingInBinary: just means you can't reprogram them was what I was thinking
14:46:47 <Lars_G> ThinkingInBinary: And real men use CPUs not microcontrollers
14:47:01 <ThinkingInBinary> Lars_G: AVR?
14:47:18 <Lars_G> tathi: Sometimes. many members of the family provide external program memory capabilities.
14:47:35 <Lars_G> tathi: Also, serial/parallel bootloaders for microcontrollers exist in abundance
14:47:47 <tathi> ah, ok.
14:47:50 <Lars_G> ThinkingInBinary: Atmel's 8bit uC, it has a few advantages over the PIC.
14:48:06 <tathi> I only messed with PICs early on, when they were solely internal ROM
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17:27:51 <ThinkingInBinary> Quartus: What's the smallest size you think I could do a decent ANSI forth in?
17:28:17 <Quiznos> the dream target is always 4kb
17:28:18 <Quiznos> :)
17:28:23 <ThinkingInBinary> Quiznos: can that be done?
17:28:28 <Quiznos> very carefully
17:28:33 <ThinkingInBinary> Quiznos: and does that allow libraries?
17:28:39 <Quiznos> god knows :)
17:29:10 <ThinkingInBinary> I mean how much RAM do I need to *run* a decent forth system?
17:29:22 <Quiznos> 64k is fine
17:29:32 <Quiznos> the box you're likely on is fine.
17:29:33 <ThinkingInBinary> ok
17:29:58 <ThinkingInBinary> Quiznos: I'm talking more about an embedded system.
17:30:14 <Quiznos> to do waht?
17:30:28 <ThinkingInBinary> Quiznos: to be cool and be programmable anywhere.
17:30:41 <ThinkingInBinary> Quiznos: So I can have a portable (3x4x1" maybe) FORTH system
17:30:43 <Quiznos> with hd or static?
17:30:48 <Quiznos> wearable
17:31:12 <ThinkingInBinary> Quiznos: probably flash
17:31:15 <ThinkingInBinary> Quiznos: wearable?
17:31:16 <Quiznos> yea
17:31:22 <ThinkingInBinary> Quiznos: why?
17:31:25 <Quiznos> that small to be useful
17:31:29 <Quiznos> it's an MIT thing
17:31:33 <ThinkingInBinary> Quiznos: ah
17:31:35 <ThinkingInBinary> Quiznos: Steve Mann
17:31:41 <ThinkingInBinary> Quiznos: nah, just handheld for now
17:31:47 <Quiznos> k
17:32:34 <Quiznos> what's the kbd replacement?
17:33:40 <ThinkingInBinary> Quiznos: touchscreen or chording kbd
17:33:51 <Quiznos> .oO i want a chord kbd
17:34:28 <ThinkingInBinary> Quiznos: problem is i'm clueless about building electronics.
17:34:37 <Quiznos> well you better learn
17:34:43 <Quiznos> tat's a serious deficciency
17:34:47 <ThinkingInBinary> Quiznos: true
17:34:51 <Quiznos> lol
17:35:36 <ThinkingInBinary> Quiznos: I'm of course going to start with just an LED blinker, and make more complicated things as I get better.
17:35:43 <Quiznos> good
17:35:55 <Quiznos> brb food hunt
17:36:00 <ThinkingInBinary> k have fun
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17:49:47 --- nick: Quiznos -> PurpleSmurf
17:55:57 <ThinkingInBinary> PurpleSmurf: hey
17:56:06 <PurpleSmurf> yea?
17:56:35 <ThinkingInBinary> PurpleSmurf: have you done any sort of electronic stuff before?
17:56:50 <PurpleSmurf> once, i munged it completely :)
17:56:57 <ThinkingInBinary> PurpleSmurf: hehe
17:57:14 <ThinkingInBinary> PurpleSmurf: what was it?
17:57:27 <PurpleSmurf> a frequency generator for healing
17:57:36 <PurpleSmurf> not complex at all
17:57:38 <ThinkingInBinary> PurpleSmurf: ah
17:57:40 <PurpleSmurf> but i've never soldered
17:57:46 <PurpleSmurf> still havent
17:57:48 <ThinkingInBinary> PurpleSmurf: hehe, I have just a little.
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17:58:16 <ThinkingInBinary> PurpleSmurf: this would be pretty cool if I could pull it off.
17:58:23 <PurpleSmurf> defin.
17:59:00 <ThinkingInBinary> I wonder if I could sell a few.
17:59:13 <PurpleSmurf> if you work fast
17:59:24 <ThinkingInBinary> Why, who's racing me?
17:59:31 <PurpleSmurf> none atm
18:00:01 <ThinkingInBinary> forth isn't exactly a buzzwordy fad language right now.  i can take my time.
18:00:12 <PurpleSmurf> but it's ~35 y.o.
18:00:26 <ThinkingInBinary> true.  it's aged well.
18:00:36 <PurpleSmurf> i dont like anso
18:00:39 <PurpleSmurf> but yea
18:00:44 <ThinkingInBinary> it's okay, i think.
18:00:50 <PurpleSmurf> they munged it
18:01:08 <ThinkingInBinary> i feel lost without having a standard to implement, but i imagine that on the embedded system i'll be trying to develop things, so I'll have another aim in mind.
18:01:09 <PurpleSmurf> even CMoore doesnt like it
18:01:15 <PurpleSmurf> he doesnt write for it
18:01:27 <ThinkingInBinary> things = maybe pda applications, an rpn calculator, etc...
18:01:33 <PurpleSmurf> yea
18:01:43 <ThinkingInBinary> But I will probably still do ANS, just for the heck of it.
18:01:53 <PurpleSmurf> yea
18:02:51 <ThinkingInBinary> damn... this'll rock.
18:02:57 <PurpleSmurf> heh
18:03:24 <ThinkingInBinary> i should give it a small analog meter that (using a pwm output) displays stack depth, with a switch to select data or return (or maybe a dual-needle meter) ;-)
18:03:52 <PurpleSmurf> you might be thinkin too hard
18:03:56 <PurpleSmurf> write it first
18:03:59 <ThinkingInBinary> Yeah ;-)
18:04:01 <PurpleSmurf> the engine
18:04:13 <PurpleSmurf> start with eForth
18:04:16 <ThinkingInBinary> ?
18:04:25 <PurpleSmurf> easy to port
18:04:38 <ThinkingInBinary> I want to write it myself.
18:04:49 <PurpleSmurf> have you done so before?
18:05:00 <ThinkingInBinary> Yes, once, for a Java cell phone.
18:05:05 <PurpleSmurf> k
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19:30:11 <thinkinginbinary> Quartus: you should add infinite loop-proofing in QF.
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19:47:59 <Quartus> thinkinginbinary -- proofing?
19:48:30 <thinkinginbinary> Quartus: like check for the power button every once in a while (maybe with a timer) and break if it's pressed.  right now it locks up the device permanently, and you gotta reset.
19:49:09 <thinkinginbinary> Although it still manages to continue playing MP3's in the background... :-b
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