02:35:30 --- log: started forth/06.01.31
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02:35:30 --- topic: 'Welcome to #forth. We discuss the Forth programming language, simplicity, and a variety of technical subjects. The rules are simple: don't spam, don't troll, and please speak English.'
02:35:30 --- topic: set by Quartus on [Sat Jan 21 17:32:55 2006]
02:35:30 --- names: list (clog Cheery sproingie Quartus PoppaVic rehges nanstm segher_ MetaDisciple Snoopy42 Teratogen I440r warpzero madgarden Ray_work Robert saon madwork skylan @crc)
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05:21:07 <JasonWoof> hello venandocarvarow
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05:21:48 <Lars_G> ." Hello all"
05:21:53 <JasonWoof> hi :)
05:22:11 <venandocarvarow> hello :-)
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05:31:04 <JasonWoof> the trouble with gaim is there's no grep -r
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08:32:12 <JasonWoof> is there a word in gforth that takes an xt and prints its name?
08:36:26 <Quartus> >name .name    will do it
08:36:59 <Quartus> so...... ' noop >name .name   for instance
08:51:28 <JasonWoof> oh
08:51:34 <JasonWoof> I came up with   ' noop look .name
08:51:44 <JasonWoof> not sure what look does
08:52:15 <JasonWoof> hmm... actually:    ' noop 0; .name
08:52:17 <JasonWoof> oops
08:52:19 <JasonWoof> gah!
08:52:28 <JasonWoof> ' noop look 0; .name
08:59:08 <Quartus> yikes. Seems complex.
08:59:31 <Quartus> Oh. >name does     look and
08:59:42 <Quartus> ' noop look and .name
08:59:44 <Quartus> same thing
09:00:00 <Quartus> What's 0; ?
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09:05:05 <crc> Quartus: 0; exits the word if TOS is 0. If it's 0, it also does a DROP, otherwise it leaves TOS alone
09:05:22 <Quartus> Not a gforth word in 6.2
09:05:37 <crc> 0; is non standard 
09:05:57 <Quartus> Lots of non-standard words in gforth, but I thought JasonWoof was asking about gforth specifically. Thought maybe 0; was some new addition.
09:07:17 <Quartus> If it's defined as you say, then it wouldn't properly replace 'and' in that sequence.
09:07:59 <Quartus> Unless I'm misunderstanding.   Is it      0= if drop exit then       or     dup 0= if drop exit then     ?
09:08:14 <crc> I think the second
09:08:30 <Quartus> Then it wouldn't replace AND.  
09:17:42 <I440r> whats wrong with ?exit ?
09:18:10 <I440r> oh i get it. the second example eats 2 stack items
09:18:46 <Quartus> I generally dislike words that have variable numbers of return values.
09:19:13 <I440r> well i think they are ok as long as the top item is a flag or a count lol
09:19:24 <I440r> but yeat... not if you overuse it
09:19:37 <Quartus> The variable return ones are the ones I always have to look up to see what's going to happen.
09:36:00 --- nick: MetaDisciple -> Quiznos
09:36:43 <JasonWoof> oh sorry, 0; is one of my words
09:37:03 <JasonWoof> man, I'm overflowing the return stack. how do you do tail-recursion in gforth?
09:37:34 <Quartus> Fake it with begin/again
09:37:46 <JasonWoof> do I have to?
09:37:49 <JasonWoof> that's so pathetic
09:37:58 <Quartus> Off the top of my head, I don't know if there's a tail-recursion word in gforth.
09:38:05 <JasonWoof> grrrr
09:38:11 <Quartus> There's recurse, of course.
09:38:33 <Quartus> You could write a 'tail-recurse' word pretty easily, I'd guess.
09:38:43 <JasonWoof> \ the words below exit on a certain condition, and drop on a certain condition
09:38:43 <JasonWoof>                                     \  exit-if  drop-if
09:38:43 <JasonWoof> : 0; dup if exit then drop rdrop ;  \  false    false
09:38:43 <JasonWoof> : 0=; if exit then rdrop ;          \  false    always
09:38:43 <JasonWoof> : if; if rdrop exit then ;          \  true     always
09:38:46 <JasonWoof> : t; dup if rdrop exit then drop ;  \  true     false
09:38:48 <JasonWoof> : f; 0= if rdrop 0 exit then ;      \  false    true
09:40:37 <JasonWoof> I don't know how to make a branch... investigating
09:41:17 <JasonWoof> heh, there's a word called "branch" but it's machine code
09:41:31 <JasonWoof> I'd be a lot happier if I could get stack comments for gforth words
09:41:57 <Quiznos> afaik, tail-recusion is just the organising of code so that the last op/word at the end of a function is a jmp to the beginning of the same function, thus no ret addr is stored
09:42:42 <JasonWoof> Quiznos: right
09:42:45 <Quiznos> a loop just mentioned might make it fakable but i'm not sure
09:42:49 <JasonWoof> Quiznos: I just don't know how to get gforth to do that
09:42:49 <Quiznos> I440r 
09:43:07 <Quiznos> it's more conceptual than concrete
09:43:11 <JasonWoof> "recurse ;" does not produce the jmp I'd like, it compiles a call, (which pushes the rstack) and a return
09:43:26 <Quiznos> that's the concrete part, something compiling has to do
09:44:05 <Quiznos> first, it can be considered a loop, so begin-again could be used, but dont forget to make a leave-door for yourself
09:44:24 <Quartus> Ok, I wrote one.
09:44:43 <Quiznos> it's a lisp/scheme thing
09:44:59 <Quartus> It's far from pretty to look at, but here it is:
09:44:59 <Quartus> create tail-mark 3 cells allot
09:44:59 <Quartus> : :   :  postpone begin  tail-mark !  tail-mark cell+ !  tail-mark 2 cells + ! ;
09:44:59 <Quartus> : tail-recurse  tail-mark 2 cells + @  tail-mark cell+ @  tail-mark @  postpone again ; immediate
09:45:14 <Quartus> Gforth 6.2-specific, it knows that begin leaves 3 cells on the data stack.
09:45:37 <Quartus> There may be a more clever way to accomplish the same thing, but that'll do it.
09:46:16 <Quartus> It's a tad more flexible than automatic tail-recursion optimization, you can use 'tail-recurse' anywhere in a word to branch back to the beginning.
09:47:02 <Quartus> Likely there's a far better name to be found than 'tail-recurse'.
09:47:38 <Quiznos> is it a sentinel word to handle the whole thing?
09:47:45 <Quartus> Sentinel?
09:47:50 <Quiznos> marker
09:48:15 <I440r> Quiznos, what are you trying to get gforth to do?
09:48:20 <I440r> i bet isforth can do it :)
09:48:20 <Quartus> Not sure what you mean. I've redefined : so that it does a BEGIN and stores the dest away.  tail-recurse  retrieves a copy of it, and codes an unconditional branch.
09:48:28 <Quartus> I440r, it's JasonWoof. Wants tail recursion in gforth.
09:48:34 <Quiznos> I440r not me, i was just chiming in
09:48:42 <I440r> aha :)
09:48:57 <Quiznos> I440r you and I chatted a few years ago (i dont recall my nick then tho :)
09:48:59 <I440r> isforth can do tail recursion but only on demand
09:49:02 <I440r> not behind your back
09:49:13 <I440r> where u from ?
09:49:16 <Quiznos> pa
09:49:20 <Quiznos> penns.
09:49:42 <Quiznos> i was on dialup back then
09:49:44 <Quiznos> :)
09:49:49 <JasonWoof> sorry, phone. I'll catch up in a bit
09:50:32 <I440r> hmmm dont recall u :)
09:50:37 <Quiznos> i know
09:50:51 <Quiznos> i didnt expect you to
09:50:54 <I440r> what did we chat about ?
09:51:00 <Quiznos> your forth
09:51:09 <I440r> good topic !!! ;)
09:51:12 <Quiznos> heh yea
09:51:13 <I440r> do u use it ?
09:51:34 <Quiznos> not as often as you'd like but other things press me
09:51:47 <I440r> ive not done much work on it in a while
09:51:51 <Quiznos> i still have a forth mentality tho
09:51:58 <I440r> thing is i got lots of time too
09:51:59 <I440r> :/
09:52:13 <Quiznos> i think in forth, rather it helps that way
09:53:32 <I440r> when you learn forth you become a better code in OTHER languages too
09:55:37 <Quiznos> this is true
09:56:09 <Quiznos> my biggest realisation is just how badly other code in other langauges is written by programmers
09:56:19 <Quiznos> all I see is inefficiency
09:56:21 <I440r> specially c
09:56:26 <I440r> which is why i dont like c
09:56:28 <Quiznos> does that make me a bad geek?
09:56:55 <I440r> :)
09:56:58 <Quiznos> heh
09:57:02 <I440r> i code what pays the bills
09:57:08 <I440r> except bb/.net/java......
09:57:12 <I440r> erm vb even
09:57:16 <I440r> ick
09:57:18 <Quiznos> heh
09:57:22 <Quiznos> ew and ewil
09:57:28 <Robert> Mmm... Java.
09:57:38 * Robert throws a rotten applet at I440r.
09:57:48 <Quiznos> heh
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09:59:58 <Robert> I think I scared him away. :)
10:01:12 <I440r> no you missed
10:01:24 <I440r> but i wont miss with my 30-06 or my new 270 :P
10:02:26 <I440r> savave 110
10:02:33 <I440r> just zeroed it in at 100 yards the other day
10:02:34 <Robert> Oh, I meant venan.
10:02:38 <I440r> shoots like a dream!!!
10:02:48 <I440r> lol
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10:03:03 <Quiznos> i'd like to larn how to shot
10:03:04 <Robert> Hooray! Now you can start a militia and throw that commie Bush out of office.
10:04:01 <I440r> and replace him with who?
10:04:05 <I440r> john fonda kerry ?
10:04:17 <I440r> algorle ? (like egor but different)
10:04:28 <I440r> algore even
10:04:37 <I440r> grrr i MUST learn to type
10:04:43 <Quiznos> crap i cant find my b-complex
10:05:23 <Robert> I440r: Nah, you could always dig up some 18th century nutcase and pretend he's alive.
10:06:00 <I440r> :)
10:06:04 <Quiznos> write now, and for several years i've been thinking of The Great American Forth
10:06:16 <Quiznos> (think Novel)
10:06:40 <Quiznos> it sings, it dances, it could even talk back (maybe)
10:06:56 * Robert is working on a simple radio link - would be fun to make a small Forth computer using only a radio modem as I/O.
10:09:39 <Quiznos> ncis, according to jim, and rodney to night
10:09:42 <Quiznos> oops
10:12:36 <Quiznos> i've also been planning an simple ai that doesnt use the standard formulas
10:14:37 <Quartus> 1+1=3. GENIUS!
10:15:04 <Quiznos> what's wrong with that, ejucators call it fuzzy-math
10:15:45 <Quartus> I call it just 'wrong', but then I'm a pragmatist. :)
10:15:55 <Quiznos> heh
10:16:02 <Quiznos> and think of stats!
10:19:07 <Quartus> Stats can certainly be mis-used.
10:19:24 <Quiznos> it takes real skill to abuse a language
10:19:29 <Quiznos> any langauge
10:19:50 <Quiznos> my lang of skill is engrlish
10:20:54 <Quartus> Indeed?
10:21:04 <Quiznos> figers-of-speech
10:21:29 <Quiznos> it's an off-the-cuff thing
10:21:34 <Quiznos>  writing
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11:47:10 <Raystm2> hehe
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17:38:20 --- log: started forth/06.01.31
17:38:20 --- join: clog (i=nef@bespin.org) joined #forth
17:38:20 --- topic: 'Welcome to #forth. We discuss the Forth programming language, simplicity, and a variety of technical subjects. The rules are simple: don't spam, don't troll, and please speak English.'
17:38:20 --- topic: set by Quartus on [Sat Jan 21 17:32:55 2006]
17:38:20 --- names: list (clog I440r saon Ray-work Raystm2 madgarden segher madwork Snoopy42 @JasonWoof Quartus Quiznos Teratogen warpzero Robert @crc skylan)
17:38:59 <JasonWoof> It looks crazy
17:39:22 <Quartus> Not complicated.  Makes : do a BEGIN by default, and then store the dest addr away.
17:39:38 <Quartus> So happens that in gforth 6.2, a dest is three cells (don't ask me why).
17:40:06 <JasonWoof> what happens if you don't recurse?
17:40:11 <Quartus> Nothing.
17:40:24 <JasonWoof> does ; automagically clear the crap begin puts on the stack?
17:40:32 <Quartus> Nothing to clear.  It's removed and stored.
17:42:00 <Quartus> Works like a charm.
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17:43:14 <JasonWoof> oh, I get it
17:43:36 <JasonWoof> that'll work on any forth where BEGIN gives you 3 cells
17:43:52 <Quartus> Sure.
17:44:12 <Quartus> Though three is a weird number, I'd expect one, maybe two if somebody's gone mad with sentinel values.
17:45:06 <Quartus> You could write a hyper-flexible one that did all the calculations and adapted to the Forth in question, but I wouldn't.
17:47:42 <JasonWoof> nah
17:49:04 <Quartus> : puts 4 cells on the stack in Gforth.  I have no idea what the grand design is behind that, I'm afraid to look.
17:49:19 <JasonWoof> weird
17:49:27 <JasonWoof> begin puts an address on the stack
17:49:39 <JasonWoof> it's 8 more than the address I get with LASTXT
17:50:27 <Quartus> I sincerely don't know.  I don't poke around in gforth internals any more than I have to, there are some peculiarities in there.
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18:15:26 <JasonWoof> ok, my gforth cgi thing now does templates
18:15:46 <JasonWoof> ie it reads in a text file, and replaces bits of it, and outputs the result
18:16:14 <JasonWoof> I don't have anything decent for it to put in place of those bits yet
18:16:38 <JasonWoof> so for now it just spits out arguments it's parsed from QUERY_STRING
18:18:02 <JasonWoof> that went quicker than I expected
18:18:36 <JasonWoof> it might only be another day or two before I have some system set up to do various filtering and encoding things to the data
18:18:53 <JasonWoof> right now the template is just a simple lookup-and-replace sort of thing
18:18:58 <JasonWoof> template has ~tag~ in it
18:19:31 <JasonWoof> so the template engine looks for a string named "tag" and if found outputs it
18:19:41 <JasonWoof> and it replaces ~~ with ~
18:19:53 <JasonWoof> later I'd like to add encodings
18:20:43 <JasonWoof> so you can do eg "phone.attr" and instead of just spitting out the phone string, it'll spit it out encoded to go in an html tag attribute
18:21:14 <JasonWoof> so it could be used like so:   <input type="text" name="phone" value="~phone.attr~">
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23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/06.01.31