00:00:00 --- log: started forth/06.01.26 02:40:43 --- join: Cheery (i=Henri@a81-197-18-99.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #forth 03:26:58 --- quit: Invifer4 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 04:07:32 --- join: pierpa (i=bernardp@151.80.0.84) joined #forth 05:19:54 --- join: tathi (n=josh@pdpc/supporter/bronze/tathi) joined #forth 05:35:01 --- nick: Raystm2 -> nanstm 05:37:29 --- nick: jungledog-away -> jungledog 06:11:19 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pete@0-1pool73-117.nas24.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 06:47:22 --- quit: pierpa (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 08:19:33 --- quit: madgarden (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 09:13:32 --- quit: PoppaVic ("Pulls the pin...") 09:15:06 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pete@0-1pool47-102.nas30.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 09:27:44 --- quit: danniken (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 09:32:40 --- join: snowrichard (n=co@adsl-69-155-177-154.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net) joined #forth 09:34:01 --- quit: snowrichard (Client Quit) 10:01:04 --- quit: PoppaVic ("Pulls the pin...") 10:08:57 --- join: danniken (i=CapStone@adsl-70-233-103-239.dsl.ltrkar.sbcglobal.net) joined #forth 10:39:58 Ray_work: what did you want to know about fovium? 11:22:11 --- join: asymptote (n=weldon@phobos.asee.org) joined #forth 11:25:04 --- join: yoyoFreeBSD (n=root@222.90.62.35) joined #forth 11:56:52 --- quit: asymptote ("Leaving") 12:09:50 --- join: virl (i=core@62.178.85.149) joined #forth 12:11:43 --- join: Lars_G (n=lars@unaffiliated/lars-g/x-000001) joined #forth 12:13:12 --- join: snoopy_1711 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-171-222.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 12:21:34 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 12:21:38 --- nick: snoopy_1711 -> Snoopy42 12:43:05 --- quit: yoyoFreeBSD (Remote closed the connection) 13:03:22 --- join: Amanita_Virosa (n=jenni@ppp-70-248-225-168.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 13:21:56 --- quit: docl ("Leaving") 13:25:11 --- quit: Cheery ("Leaving") 13:31:47 --- quit: jungledog (Nick collision from services.) 13:36:51 --- join: jungledog (n=dschauer@adsl-64-219-100-33.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net) joined #forth 13:43:26 --- quit: Amanita_Virosa ("Wewps.") 13:58:55 --- quit: jungledog (Remote closed the connection) 14:07:07 --- join: segher_ (n=segher@dslb-084-056-151-226.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 14:09:50 --- join: jungledog (n=dschauer@adsl-64-219-100-33.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net) joined #forth 14:16:59 --- quit: jungledog ("Leaving") 14:19:41 --- join: jungledog (n=dschauer@adsl-64-219-100-33.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net) joined #forth 14:23:43 --- quit: segher (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 14:38:10 --- join: pierpa (n=bernardp@151.80.14.63) joined #forth 14:39:27 --- join: madgarden (n=madgarde@London-HSE-ppp3546494.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 15:15:59 --- quit: virl (Remote closed the connection) 15:36:25 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 16:02:33 Are all days this quiet? 16:08:42 you just perceive it is quiet. It is actually quite noisy in here. 16:10:04 ahhhhh 16:27:31 Lars_G: most days are 16:27:43 we do have some very active times though 16:55:18 Hi all 16:57:01 hi saon 17:03:06 sup? 17:10:19 working on finishing up the wordlist in the RetroForth Handbook (last bits before I can release 9.0) 17:15:40 coolness :) 17:15:43 i will be sure to read it 17:16:00 * saon hasn't updated his rf install since 8.0ish times 17:16:23 anything particularly new and exciting in the new release? 17:23:24 I switched away from the cmForth-style two dictionary model, to a single dictionary using "word classes", added a sort of vocabulary capability, command line arguments, almost complete ANS CORE compatibility (optional), more aggresive optimizations 17:23:44 the native port is seeing a lot of change in terms of hardware support 17:25:02 I revamped a huge amount of the core, splitting that off into a non-OS dependent library with optional compilation as a static library for use with C and a DLL for Windows programmers 17:30:28 the first draft of the handbook is up :) 17:30:31 http://retroforth.net/doc/handbook/retroforth/ 17:33:04 --- quit: rsyncx ("Leaving") 17:37:44 --- quit: pierpa (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 17:42:33 Which bits of ANS CORE aren't there? 17:43:21 --- join: amca (n=plump@as-bri-4-1-72.ozonline.com.au) joined #forth 17:45:22 --- join: sproingie (n=chuck@64-121-2-59.c3-0.sfrn-ubr8.sfrn.ca.cable.rcn.com) joined #forth 17:48:37 http://forthworks.com/ans-status.pdf has a chart 17:48:51 I plan to finish everything in gray 17:50:43 actually, that's a bit old; I have a few of the gray words in my working copy currently 17:50:53 crc: Because it is such a pretty colour? ;) 17:51:25 amca: which color? 17:51:38 crc: Grey. 17:53:14 heh 17:53:24 I choose the colors mostly at random 17:53:42 crc: Why not get the computer to do it for you then? ;) 17:54:18 Do it in postscript, have a function in the postscript to randomly determine the text colour, then converrt to pdf. ;) 17:54:18 amca: laziness 17:54:25 hehe 17:57:05 Good show. The orange ones can't be worked around? 18:00:25 not easily 18:00:56 I could eventually, but I'm still deciding how to proceed on those 18:00:59 No input buffer? 18:01:11 there's an input buffer 18:01:30 So why not >IN ? 18:01:38 >in is a direct pointer, not an offset 18:01:44 sproingie said it 18:02:01 But you could add a new >IN that did the subtraction, no? 18:02:05 you could do the orange words compatibly, but they wouldn't work with rf 18:02:19 an UPPERCASE version is probably the best way to go with those 18:02:23 Quartus: yes, but you can't modify it very easily 18:02:36 make >in and >IN have different semantics. maximally confusing 18:02:43 e.g, I can redefine >in to do the subtraction, but you can't roll it back 18:02:52 Ah. Well, I don't know if I speak for all but I'd be looking for an ANS layer that gave compatibility when I needed it, not necessarily one that allowed me access to all the wonders of rf at the same time. 18:03:50 Perhaps a separate wordlist would cover it. 18:04:10 something else rf doesn't have 18:04:21 No? Any reason? So easy to do. 18:04:28 Quartus: lack of desire 18:04:38 Ok. 18:04:38 probably a lot easier now with the single dictionary 18:04:46 it would have been a pain with the dual dicts 18:04:47 I have a semi-private wordlist scheme in retro9 18:04:48 Wordlists are a no-cost side-effect of a hashed dictionary. 18:05:02 full wordlists might come 18:05:16 * crc watches Reva, where Ron is working on them 18:05:37 You very likely already have built all the infrastructure for it. It's almost difficult not to have them. 18:06:02 Useful internally too, for tracking 'require' or 'needs' filenames, for instance. 18:08:18 float words would be nice 18:09:22 If you're interested in wordlist support at any point, let me know if I can help. I can describe the mechanism in a few sentences, it's really quite simple. 18:10:41 will do 18:10:59 * crc wants to flesh out the rest of the CORE spec and some other library stuff first 18:12:10 Do you have some other mechanism for 'needs', to make included files idempotent? 18:14:17 idempotent? 18:14:52 crc: including a file more than once has the same effect as including it only once 18:15:09 retro has nothing like that at present 18:19:32 * nanstm starting to wonder if it's necessary. 18:19:39 oops sorry. 18:20:00 --- nick: nanstm -> Raystm2 18:20:16 --- quit: amca (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 18:23:34 Raystm2: I've never run into problems with retro's lack of idempotence 18:26:17 When ever you need a foriegn function, dont you just import the function then with a word that does just that? 18:26:28 yes 18:26:47 with the library files, the includes generally aren't nested in my code at least 18:28:11 Would this be like a coding convention, to say, import your relevent libs at the top of the script, or just import in a word? 18:28:35 wait thats two questions, sorry :) 18:31:44 I generally have a few lines to "include " at the top of the script 18:33:16 actually, "include" isn't in retro9 yet; just "load" 18:33:55 Raystm2: what did you want to ask about fovium? 18:36:29 Hey JasonWoof! How's fovium coming? 18:36:57 Where are you at on it? Any progress to report? 18:36:59 Raystm2: it works great for mist in it's current state 18:37:12 excellent :) 18:37:25 I will extend the graphics api once I get around to wanting it 18:37:38 I already want it :) 18:38:54 you want a copy of the fovium source code? 18:39:05 I wonder what Antiques Road Show Online in 2085 will pay my grandson for a collection of forths coded by the authors and asked to be beta tested by me would be worth? 18:39:39 $0.85 Lunar denari. 18:39:48 start saving then :) 18:40:14 oop, I gotta head home. I'll be back in 10 minutes or so 18:40:30 JasonWoof: more then you know. 18:40:32 ok 18:40:35 i can wait 18:40:41 I've waited this long :) 18:40:48 I need to read code. 18:40:54 lots and lots of code. 18:41:03 code I can almost understand 18:41:13 just out of my current reach. 18:41:18 easy to find in c. 18:41:23 not so easy in forth 18:46:25 --- join: amca (n=plump@as-bri-1-19.ozonline.com.au) joined #forth 18:51:34 Allo 18:52:47 hello amca 18:54:01 My computer stuffed up. pdf2ps started taking over the computer :/ 18:58:57 Anyone else have that problem? 19:00:15 nope 19:01:32 ah well 19:01:57 I wish I could be bothered doing something other than not using it :/ 19:02:06 Anyhow, how goes work? 19:02:08 * crc does run freebsd though, so the version of pdf2ps may be different 19:02:30 work is good; we've had record sales for January (550k, 350k average for Jan) 19:02:43 * amca nods 19:02:50 cool 19:03:01 How goes rf? 19:03:10 very good 19:03:18 the 9.0 release is almost done :) 19:04:10 :) 19:04:21 How is the manual conversion going? 19:04:50 the first draft (complete enough to be useful) is up at http://retroforth.net/doc/handbook/retroforth 19:06:06 sweet 19:06:10 * amca looks at it 19:07:19 that took me to http://retroforth.net 19:07:26 ? 19:07:39 Ill double check 19:07:43 it shouldn't redirect 19:07:49 at least, it doesn't for me... 19:08:10 Sorry - I must have stuffed up 19:08:15 ok 19:08:27 * crc was worried that apache might be misconfigured 19:08:42 sorry about that >.> 19:08:48 np 19:08:58 Dont worry about what I say today - my brain is a bit scattered 19:10:40 ok 19:12:34 "It seems like in the Olden Days you didn't have to wait for half a minute to turn on an appliance. There was a switch, up was on (unless you lived in Europe, where they had a terrible war and couldn't afford appliances)," 19:14:45 If slavery was never abolished, would we have huge rooms of human computors calculating stuff for us instead of electronic computers? 19:16:16 "computor" used to be a job description for a person 19:17:38 most of the calculations for the manhattan project was done with rooms full of people with adding machines, executing a "program" by handing their results around differently 19:17:40 * amca nods 19:18:09 FPS would have been "interesting" 19:19:10 feynmann goes into it some in his biography 19:20:03 Biography or autobiography? 19:20:20 autobiography 19:20:30 Ill have to read it 19:20:38 "Surely You're Joking Mr Feynmann" 19:20:43 is the name of it 19:21:32 Thanks :) 19:21:54 I read he was a good speaker 19:22:54 --- join: slava (n=slava@CPE0080ad77a020-CM000e5cdfda14.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 19:23:00 has anybody played with MOPS? 19:23:07 And Im very interested in sub atomic physics too :) 19:23:18 slava: not me. What is it? 19:23:29 a forth for os x 19:23:41 ah 19:28:29 crc: what does lodsd do? 19:30:24 loads a dword at [esi] into eax, then increments or decrements esi automatically 19:30:52 pops the stack, basically 19:32:14 hi cr 19:32:15 crc* 19:32:24 hi slava 19:32:33 thanks 19:32:38 np 19:32:52 adding comments to the assembly listing is one of my goals for the next update to the handbook 19:33:02 heh 19:35:46 crc: You would probably only need to document which each of the registers and primitive variables represent wouldnt you? 19:36:11 After all, if you are as ignorant me about x86 asm, then you should be learning it before reding it ;) 19:36:48 amca: I learned a lot of assembly by reading over listings :) 19:37:40 --- quit: jungledog ("Leaving") 19:37:48 hehe 19:39:00 true, but commenting something like "INC AX ; adds one to the AX register" isnt actually useful. Perhaps "; AX is the PSP" would be though. 19:39:21 Probably spelling out what PSP means too would be good 19:41:32 I should document the register useage again 19:41:49 Is it documented earlier up in the page? 19:41:54 no 19:42:07 k 19:42:12 I had planned to document it, but seem to have overlooked it... 19:42:42 Do you remember offhand what the register usage is now? 19:42:55 how come there is retroforth.net and retroforth.org? 19:44:28 retroforth.net is in use on the new server until I complete the final aspect of the move 19:45:10 So rf.org is unmaintained? 19:45:21 rf.org redirects to rf.net 19:45:40 I plan to finish the move this weekend, if I'm not too tired 19:45:45 Ah 19:45:59 rf.org must have relioaded from my cache then 19:46:07 probably 19:46:46 Where does it detail the improvements on the website of 8 to 9 ? 19:47:10 I haven't actually written anything detailing that yet 19:47:24 ok 19:54:10 Raystm2: I got home and plugged my phone in, only to find that I had a message... 19:54:19 so I ended up going right back into town to pick up a printer 19:54:36 but now I'm back. I'll put together a source tarball of fovium for you. 19:54:44 O_O 19:54:44 ouch 19:56:52 JasonWoof: Has the name changed from fovm to fovium? 19:57:33 no 19:57:35 Thank you JasonWoof. 19:57:36 it's always been fovium 19:57:53 there might be something else called fovm or fvm 19:58:05 ah 19:58:06 are has been talking about forth vm ideas 19:58:12 I think a critter has invaded and is moving things around under my wifes desk. must investigate. 19:58:36 Raystm2: wasn't me I swear 19:59:03 JasonWoof: Ah, poppavic has a fovm project 19:59:19 why don't you merge your efforts? 19:59:28 bahahahahahahaha 19:59:32 Sorry. 19:59:33 lol 19:59:44 lolling at slava and Quartus 20:00:16 JasonWoof: Does fovium have a webpage? 20:00:49 latest and greatest fovium: http://jasonwoof.com/downloads/fovium-2006-01-27.tgz 20:01:01 tnx 20:01:05 lel 20:01:06 lol 20:01:15 i'm going to try and make a new factor release tonight, i just have to fix some remaining amd64 issues 20:01:40 slava: PoppaVic is utterly unintelligable to me 20:01:57 But only to you; to the rest of us he's as clear as chocolate milk. 20:02:23 amca: http://retroforth.net/whatsnew 20:02:33 crc: thanks 20:02:33 still a little incomplete, but I'll finish it soon 20:02:53 fovium is so small anyway, I don't need help with it. it's a 12K .c file and another 4K file for SDL support 20:03:25 I'm sure with PoppaVic's help you can get that down to 120K and completely unusable. 20:03:32 Quartus: :) 20:04:01 JasonWoof: Really? I think he is intelligable myself. I could unterstand his ideas being unintelligable to you. :) 20:04:16 You know, it'll be under C and over ASM and nothing at all like autoshit. 20:04:24 lmao 20:05:39 Quartus: You been working on becomming more like poppa? :) 20:05:57 crc: WIP? 20:06:13 Who Is Poppa? 20:06:29 slava: PoppaVic is a regular in this channel 20:06:45 i know 20:06:58 Poppa is slacker for PoppaVic 20:07:11 i was responding to amca's question "WIP?" 20:07:15 heh 20:07:34 slava: figured it out just before you explained 20:07:37 hehe 20:07:54 I'm not feeling terribly observant 20:07:57 crc: Is that true? 20:08:54 JasonWoof: Im feeling poarticularly braindead. Maybe we should form a rock band 20:10:05 amca: ok, I'll be the guy with the weird hair. what'll you be? 20:10:38 Ill be the bassist. That way Ill have even less work than the drummer 20:11:00 mt ts mt ts mt ts 20:11:07 wtf? 20:11:17 Ah 20:11:20 Dum noises? 20:11:27 er...drum 20:11:31 I'm practicing :) 20:11:34 hehe 20:11:44 Freudian slip there from me >.> 20:11:55 suuuure 20:12:11 crc: have you considered a "everything" tarball, or is one of them already that? 20:12:31 Ill just go back to banging my stick with a string on it 20:13:16 JasonWoof: I like the pretty, yet elegant page you have 20:13:35 will your band engage in a bitter media-fuelled feud with PoppaVic? 20:13:46 He started it! 20:13:54 He totally has snubbed our band today! 20:14:13 He's going DOWN! (the charts) 20:14:20 amca: the download for the hosted ports has all of the hosted ports, and the Rx Core in it 20:14:32 also binaries for each port 20:15:15 crc: so http://retroforth.net/get/900-current.tar.gz has the native one in it too? 20:15:22 no 20:15:44 the native port is not hosted, it has a different build setup due to its differing requirements 20:16:01 how is it built? 20:16:06 * amca nods 20:16:13 Does it have interrupt docs in the package? 20:16:17 still uses make, and a couple of shell scripts 20:16:19 amca: no 20:16:30 the docs on native are really minimal at present 20:16:47 ok 20:16:51 most of this stuff in native is under 3 weeks old; not enough time :) 20:17:12 where should I start for looking at how INTs are handled? any words I should SEE? 20:17:55 Are there any Forths which have a word that allow you to see the docs for a word? 20:18:04 factor has online help 20:19:44 where is the latest factor build so Im not looking at an old ver? 20:20:05 (please, sorry) 20:20:39 http://factorcode.org/responder/help/ 20:20:49 thanks 20:21:16 slava: Do you have a personal page? 20:21:19 no 20:22:37 amca: the interrupt interface words are pretty skimpy at the moment 20:22:42 a simple example: 20:22:43 idt 30 map: words 20:22:43 : test-30 int: 30 ; 20:22:54 the first line maps "words" to int 30 20:23:11 where idt means? 20:23:13 the word test-30 will do an "int 30" 20:23:31 idt is a quasi-vocabulary 20:23:44 idt has three words under it 20:23:46 map: 20:23:48 enabke 20:23:52 enable 20:23:53 disable 20:24:08 enable turns on interrupts; disable turns them off 20:24:27 slava: No updates since 0.79? 20:24:43 i'm releasing a new version soon 20:24:51 i have to finish a new things 20:25:22 Ah 20:25:45 Just I remember you talking about new stuff recently...at least I think it was recently >.> 20:26:22 i work on it almost every day 20:26:30 amca: on forths with documention, reva 5.1i has a "help" word that brings up help on specific words 20:26:41 * amca nods 20:28:35 actually, it seems to cover all the words now 20:33:25 JasonWoof: You work much on Mist these days? 20:33:33 Quartus: Can I ask what you have been working on recently? 20:33:54 Lately, puppet parts. 20:34:22 Quartus: How's that been going? 20:34:58 goodnight 20:35:12 Pretty well! 20:37:00 night crc 20:37:08 been casting many parts? 20:37:21 Or assembling/painting? 20:37:24 Both, in fact. 20:38:04 hehe 20:40:27 Why is OS coding (as in creating an OS) so complex? 20:45:18 --- quit: slava ("leaving") 20:50:26 --- join: slava (n=slava@CPE0080ad77a020-CM000e5cdfda14.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 20:53:54 amca: thanks :) 20:54:05 amca: I usually work on my forth quite a bit 20:54:18 although I haven't much this month 20:57:09 * amca nods 20:57:19 Are you able to answer my OS question? 20:58:10 A simple OS isn't complex. A complex OS is. 20:59:15 hehe 20:59:47 Quartus: Why are complex OS's complex? 21:00:06 Name a dozen major things a complex OS does. 21:01:50 All I know is runing multiple users and programs. I cant think of anything else that could make an OS complex 21:02:10 What does an OS have to provide to run a single program? 21:02:35 amca: GUI, drivers, multiprocessor support, network stack 21:02:55 Just a link between the user and hardware 21:03:03 slava: I thought network stack was trivial? 21:03:15 a fast one isn't 21:03:29 I see 21:03:29 Sure. An OS is a link between the user and hardware. It is comprised of a surprising number of components; if you can't name even a few of those, you're not ready for the answer of 'why are they complex'. 21:03:54 Quartus: Fair enough. 21:05:29 I think OS coding is hard because of all the hardware you have to figure out how to interract with 21:06:00 JasonWoof: That would explain a lot 21:06:01 Even if you put that aside and let it be handled by loadable drivers, you're still not dealing with a particulary simple piece of software. 21:06:26 also for "modern" desktop OSes there are quite a few features that people expect, like virtual memory, harddrive cache, protected memory, pre-emptive multitasking, etc 21:07:09 I expect I'll need a fairly sophisticated cache manager 21:07:10 As far as I know about them, the concepts are simple. Is it just that implementation of simple concepts is complex? 21:07:12 Encrypted filesystem support, interoperability with a range of networking protocols. 21:07:23 amca: the concepts are simple, but there are a lot of them 21:07:52 hmm 21:07:53 yeah, I'm actually more worried about protocol/codec/filetype support more than drivers 21:07:55 Authentication. 21:08:45 hmmm 21:08:46 even if I _only_ have a web-browser, e-mail client and irc client 21:08:58 there's a rediculous number of protocols and file parsing stuff 21:09:18 writing a web browser is extremely difficult 21:09:46 UDP, DNS, TCP/IP, HTTP, HTTPS, FTP, IRC, SMTP, POP3 21:09:51 The way I see it though, each interface should be simple in itself, that it is just the number of components rather than the components themselves that is complex 21:10:31 html, xhtml, css, jpeg, png, gif, javascript, txt, unicode, pdf 21:10:55 amca: rendering html is hard 21:11:12 and the less used ones that would certainly be missed: flash, java 21:11:20 slava: what about XHTML? 21:11:33 amca: xhtml is just html with an xml syntax. 21:11:39 you can use the same renderer, with a slightly different parser 21:11:54 just parsing HTML is rough 21:11:55 an xml parser supporting schemas and namespaces is itself a fair bit if work 21:12:20 deciding what to do with broken HTML is a whole project in itself 21:12:55 HTTP has 3 different file encodings 21:13:03 encodings are trivial 21:13:06 any of which can be encrypted or compressed 21:13:18 JasonWoof: Which can be provided by plugins 21:13:21 the multipart-mime one doesn't seem so simple to me 21:13:32 its relatively simple... 21:13:32 I had read that the idea of XHTML was to make it more regular than HTML which would make it simpler? 21:13:43 xhtml is html with xml syntax 21:14:24 amca: yes, it makes things a lot simpler of you don't have to deal with broken html, but the vast _majority_ of sites out there are broken HTML 21:14:44 --- quit: I440r ("Leaving") 21:15:23 * amca nods 21:16:22 * amca doesnt know why browser makers just decide as a group to not put up with broken sites and put the onus back on the site provider 21:16:34 right 21:17:00 we'll just walk up to M$ and ask them to make their software standards complient 21:17:13 Probably because MS is more concerned with getting profit, not having simple products? 21:17:29 bingo 21:17:33 M$ doesn't care 21:17:41 and they've got the majority in browsers 21:17:56 if the other browsers won't display pages with invalid html then nobody will use them 21:18:19 * amca wonders if there is a subgroup online of ppl who go for simplicity *and* functionality 21:18:44 * JasonWoof raises his hand 21:18:44 mutually exclusive :) 21:19:10 slava: But why? :( 21:19:18 "the simplest thing that could possibly work" 21:19:35 i like simplicity too, but simple designs often don't handle corner cases 21:19:44 eg, forths with fixed-size PAD buffers crashing on input lines > 100 chars 21:20:02 yeah 21:20:16 the tough part about making things simple is dealing with special cases 21:20:48 JasonWoof: do you have macos? 21:20:52 but often the complex solutions don't handle the special cases real well either 21:21:02 slava: I have a copy. I don't use it though 21:21:07 complex solutions don't handle the common cases 21:21:13 JasonWoof: there's a neat forth for OS X, MOPS 21:21:19 slava: I read recently about "corner-cases". What are they? 21:21:21 yeah, I've used mops 21:21:38 --- quit: abionnnn (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 21:21:50 I didn't use it enough to figure out how to get the good interface 21:21:58 Like I just saw the phrase "corner-cases" mentioned, no explaination 21:22:00 I must have missed the documentation or something 21:22:23 amca: eg, when we define the exponent function x^y, x^0=1 is a corner case 21:22:24 amca: I'm assuming he's talking about things that don't happen normally, but must be handled anyway 21:23:13 eg an html file with a 2MB tag name 21:23:40 that's more of a scalability issue 21:24:26 small wonder people find a new way to crash the major browsers with such regularity 21:25:06 ah, i found a segfault that's been driving me nuts 21:25:14 slava: Do you know a url that shows a graph of x^y (been a long while since calculus) 21:25:18 on amd64 when you call a varargs C function, you have to set EAX to the number of SSE registers used 21:25:38 amca: that's not calculous 21:25:40 amca: just a power 21:25:48 basic algebra 21:26:05 #include 21:26:22 pow(4.0, 8.8); 21:26:28 i don't think the exponent is a concept from algebra 21:26:50 algebra has x^2 and such doesn't it? 21:27:21 well, integer exponents come up in algebra i guess 21:27:26 in polynomial rings 21:27:52 JasonWoof: Calculus is involved with finding integrals and derivatives etc which is the last place I encountered cartesian geometry 21:28:13 I remember e^x 21:28:26 cartesian? isn't that the standard (x,y) plane? 21:28:39 like from geometry class? (which comes before algebra right?) 21:28:40 e^x is wonderful. you can compute e^x where x is a matrix 21:29:14 I assumed that x^0 was only a case you had to be careful about if you were doing integers 21:29:33 if x != 0, x^0=1 is something you can prove 21:29:53 although I don't know how floating point expenents are computed 21:30:19 probably using x^y = e^(ln(x)*y) 21:30:39 incidentally, e^0=1 because e^x = sum(x^n/n!,n=0..inf) 21:32:24 huh? 21:32:51 JasonWoof: Cartesian geometry would be part of algebra wouldnt it? 21:32:52 oh 21:33:08 afterall, aren't "x" and "y" algebraic variables? 21:33:37 high school algebra and geometry has little in common with algebra and geometry 21:33:55 yeah, I'm a bit confused about those names 21:34:02 I took a geometry class in 7th and 8th grade 21:34:11 where we used a compos and a ruler and such 21:34:39 then in hs I got this retarted geometry textbook that was all about these logic proofs of inane obvious crap 21:35:36 slava: How so? 21:35:39 I had to waste all kinds of time learning the names for obvious properties of algebra. Most of which I have of course forgotten because they are so obvious that you never have to say them 21:35:59 the only one that I remember is the one I already know which is "the reflexive property of multiplication" 21:36:09 in algebra, you study groups, rings, modules 21:36:59 slava: Sounds like meta-highschool-algebra 21:37:56 JasonWoof: these properties are only obvious because we take it for granted that integers have a ring structure 21:39:02 if you look at the definition of matrix multiplication, it is not obvious that it is associative or distributes over addition, for example 21:39:48 however you can define a module, the action of a matrix on a free module, then show that matrices correspond to linear maps, and matrix multiplication is function composition. then function composition is now clearly associative 21:44:06 in high school, you might see simple 2x2 matrices, and prove that the multiplication is associative by tediously "expanding out by hand" 21:44:08 slava: would I be right about my observation? 21:44:18 i guess 21:44:45 for example, a group is a set with a associative binary operation, an indentity, and inverse map 21:44:53 you can prove results about groups which hold for all groups 21:45:16 the real numbers are a group, so are integers modulo n, invertible matrices, and other structures 21:47:06 but they're teaching it to me when it's totally useless 21:47:23 sure, most of the stuff they teach you would be useful in some context 21:47:26 math is taught incorrectly at the high school level 21:47:35 but it makes me really angry when they don't even hint at what such a context might be 21:47:43 the focus is on solving arithmetic problems as quickly as possible 21:47:46 this is irrelevant 21:47:48 we have calculators 21:48:06 If I can't figure out how some knowledge could possibly be useful, then I'm not interested in learning it 21:48:13 and, hence I will forget it 21:48:52 knowledge can lead to understanding even if not applied 21:49:00 slava: How should math be taught? 21:49:38 IMO part of teaching is showing how even the most abstract has practical relevance 21:49:39 more focus on abstractions and why things are true, and problem solving 21:49:57 rather than computation 21:51:09 * amca agrees 21:52:06 I always was the slowest, even though I was one of the smartest, at math, because I deal with manipulating abstractions better than alculation 21:52:10 imagine a geometrical shape, like a hexagon. the set of all rotations and reflections which leave the shape fixed is a group 21:52:20 this stuff should be taught in high school 21:53:08 slava: that is a good example of relating abstraction to practicality 21:53:20 And what is a ring like? 21:53:41 a ring is a set with two operations, + and * 21:53:50 integers, real numbers, matrices are rings 21:53:51 no subtraction? 21:54:03 yes, subtraction is there; you demand that every element have an additive inverse (negative) 21:54:11 but not necessarily a multiplicative inverse 21:54:16 I see 21:54:23 if every non-zero element has a multiplicative inverse, we call it a field 21:54:28 real numbers are a field; integers are not; matrices are not 21:54:37 So that you dont subtract 1 from two, you convert 1 to -1 then add it to two? 21:54:51 no, you can write x-y 21:55:03 ? 21:55:37 you could define a ring as a set with two operations, * and - 21:55:48 you don't need to specify subtraction as part of the definition 21:55:54 it can be deduced 21:56:00 ok 21:56:10 well I gotta go. Catch you all later 21:56:14 * amca is away: shopping 22:04:30 --- quit: sproingie (Remote closed the connection) 22:29:05 --- quit: slava ("Lost terminal") 22:59:17 --- join: yoyoFreeBSD (n=root@222.90.39.128) joined #forth 23:02:43 --- join: Cheery (i=Henri@a81-197-18-99.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #forth 23:06:27 --- quit: amca (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 23:30:00 --- part: yoyoFreeBSD left #forth 23:48:51 --- join: abionnnn (n=abiogen4@dy151-027.ust.hk) joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/06.01.26