00:00:00 --- log: started forth/06.01.17
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19:47:30 <snowrichard> hi
19:48:00 <amca> Hello
19:48:59 <Raystm2> Hi snowrichard Hello amca
19:49:20 <snowrichard>  http://linux.softpedia.com/get/Multimedia/Audio/rstudio-8219.shtml
19:49:42 <amca> Hi Ray
19:49:54 * amca looks
19:49:57 <snowrichard> someone else picked up my program
19:51:20 <amca> So softpedia did that page?
19:51:27 <snowrichard> yeah
19:52:07 <snowrichard> copied from mine basically
19:52:10 <amca> hehe
19:52:26 <amca> You know what they say the greatest flattery is... :)
20:02:41 * sproingie . o O ( plagarism? )
20:03:42 <amca> yep
20:03:52 <Raystm2> Impersonation is the greatest form of flattery.
20:04:14 <Raystm2> Plagerism is a crime
20:04:43 <amca> Ah, thats right
20:04:45 <amca> hehe
20:04:48 <Raystm2> :)
20:05:27 <Raystm2> I'm sure i've plagerized all of that last.
20:05:29 <amca> How are all you folks today?
20:05:49 <Raystm2> I had a very hard day at work and i'm doing almost anything to forget it. 
20:06:01 <Raystm2> Shy of drinking alcohol.
20:06:37 * Raystm2 doesn't know when he started caring enough about his job to worry about it on the ride home...
20:07:05 <Raystm2> How's by you?
20:07:42 * sproingie is avoiding writing a memory manager in forth
20:07:46 <snowrichard> I've got a brand new refrigerator stocked with food, and still money left in the bank.  Having my mom manage my money has worked out pretty well. 
20:07:47 <sproingie> i have this phobia of memory management
20:08:37 * amca got out of bed on the wrong side and is trying to distract himself from it.
20:08:44 <amca> sproingie: Which Forth?
20:08:58 <sproingie> amca: retro
20:09:17 <Raystm2> I know huh, cool right, retro. damn.
20:09:20 <sproingie> figured out how to mmap a new segment in, now i just gotta divvy it up
20:10:02 <sproingie> write ALLOCATE, FREE, and RESIZE
20:10:05 <amca> sproingie: Which platform for rf?
20:10:19 <sproingie> amca: linux.  the mmap trick should be reasonably portable tho
20:10:41 * Raystm2 got it running on p2 p4 but not his p3, as native.
20:10:49 <snowrichard> I've got another free computer to get working.  bbl :) 
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20:11:15 <Raystm2> snark it up snowrichard! good luck
20:13:01 <sproingie> not sure what i'd do for anon mmap in windows
20:13:12 <sproingie> windows has MapViewOfFile, but i don't think it has a MAP_ANONYMOUS
20:13:20 <amca> Does rf run 32 bit protected mode native?
20:13:40 <sproingie> i believe so, yes
20:16:06 <sproingie> it now stays within its own partition (uses the same partition id as ForthOS)
20:16:16 <amca> cool
20:19:04 <amca> sproingie: Does rf have an assembler?
20:21:22 <sproingie> a separate one, doesn't come with rf.  it's pretty bizarre looking, so the fasm source is much easier to understand
20:21:51 <Raystm2> amca the rf assembler is called Charles R. Childers. 
20:21:57 <amca> Ah
20:22:07 <amca> lol
20:22:25 <Raystm2> You just ask if he ever considered and its documented as "comes with" before you can download it.
20:22:38 <sproingie> yeah he has quite a few core words that are coded in raw hex assembly.  the disassembly is in the documentation
20:23:29 <amca> sproingie: You mean raw machine code?
20:23:35 <sproingie> yah that's what i meant
20:23:49 <amca> ....why?
20:23:59 <sproingie> : dup [ $fc4689 3, $fc768d 3, ] ;
20:24:17 <sproingie> because he hasn't gotten around to using the assembler i guess
20:24:28 <sproingie> doesn't want to make it a dependency perhaps
20:25:48 <amca> Ah, I see
20:25:52 <sproingie> i'm working around to eventually writing an object vm in rf.  thus my adventures in memory management
20:26:22 <sproingie> technically i don't need free, since it'll be a generational gc, but it'll be a good exercise
20:26:22 <amca> sproingie: How are you planning to implement the OO?
20:27:54 <sproingie> amca: i'm going with the squeak smalltalk design.  object pointers are raw pointers, and i bum three bits to represent various literals like smallint
20:28:56 <sproingie> since all objects are 8-bit aligned, that means any value ending in binary 000 is an object pointer
20:30:23 * amca nods
20:30:32 <sproingie> and since i don't have to unstuff pointers to trace object graphs, following object graphs should be very fast
20:30:49 <sproingie> which should make gc very fast
20:31:10 <amca> unstuff pters?
20:31:48 <sproingie> yeah, unmangle the pointer, strip the extra bits off, whatever
20:32:14 <sproingie> like with a smallint, the lowest three bits are 001.  So I have to shift it over three bits to get the real number
20:32:51 <sproingie> sign extension may turn out to be a bitch, but maybe it'll just work for free
20:33:14 <amca> When I have thought about making a OO Forth, I have thought of implementing it with 2 data "types": cell and object, with the first cell of object being the object type token thingy
20:33:44 <sproingie> that's how i'm implementing types.  every cell has a three bit tag
20:33:57 <Raystm2> bytecoded typing?
20:33:59 <sproingie> 000 is an object, 001 is a smallint, everything else is reserved
20:34:05 <Raystm2> imean is that the proper term?
20:34:14 <sproingie> beats me.  i usually hear it called bit-swizzling
20:34:18 <Raystm2> :)
20:34:47 <amca> in my idea, cells arent tagged. the coder has to keep track of what is an object and what is a literal cell
20:35:10 <sproingie> not really possible in my scheme, since i want to support exact gc
20:36:10 <sproingie> plus objects will be self-identifying -- the header will contain a class pointer (actually another object)
20:36:23 <amca> ah
20:36:23 <amca> I see
20:36:39 * amca nods
20:37:02 <amca> Are you gonna use prototyping object system as opposed to class system?
20:37:12 <sproingie> basically i could save a lot of time by just using Factor, but i just thought I'd try writing it from scratch in retro instead
20:37:40 <sproingie> i wouldn't call factor bloated, but i bet i could make mine more minimalist
20:37:44 <Raystm2> A worth goal.
20:37:53 <Raystm2> worthy even
20:38:22 <sproingie> i'm not sure about the class vs prototype angle.  would be nice to be able to support both
20:39:01 <sproingie> i think pure prototype systems are a bit overrated.  you should be able to write a prototype dispatch system given a decent class metamodel
21:00:18 <slava> heh
21:00:59 <amca> Hi slava
21:02:11 <slava> sproingie: you're writing an object system for native retroforth?
21:02:38 <amca> linux rf I think
21:07:45 <sproingie> slava: writing it in retroforth, not so much for it
21:08:30 <sproingie> just playing with the idea right now.  implementing a gc will be good practice
21:08:42 <sproingie> probably start with a simple copying collector
21:09:30 <amca> copying collector? As in copying the objects to be kept in memory instead of marking them?
21:09:58 <sproingie> well you mark 'em then you copy them
21:10:25 <amca> Do you copy them into a new section of memory, then release all of the old section?
21:10:35 <sproingie> yep, that's how a copying collector works
21:10:39 <amca> ah
21:10:56 <sproingie> it's pretty wasteful, but it's real simple to implement
21:11:10 <amca> Rather than going through and releasing each individual object that isnt referenced anymore?
21:11:30 <sproingie> sometimes that's a win, if most of your objects are garbage
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21:12:01 <amca> yep
21:12:03 <sproingie> you just collect the live objects, copy them over, and flip allocation areas
21:12:05 <amca> wb
21:12:24 <amca> So you generally have two allocation areas of equal size?
21:12:38 <snowrichard> hi
21:13:02 <sproingie> a generational gc is a refinement on the concept, you move objects in an old generation to the next one and get yourself a fresh young generation
21:13:20 <sproingie> this works great when you allocate a bunch of objects that never live for long
21:14:06 <sproingie> amca: yah, a copying gc only uses at most half the space at any one time
21:14:19 <amca> Sounds similar to double buffering
21:14:44 <amca> for video
21:14:56 <sproingie> well, there's copying going on, but not really related
21:15:33 <amca> I know
21:15:36 <amca> Just reminds me
21:15:45 <sproingie> a simple stop-and-copy gc will do the job, and should be educational to people looking at it
21:17:03 <slava> stop and copy is great
21:17:31 <amca> what is stop and copy?
21:18:07 <sproingie> basically where you stop the program and garbage collect everything into the new heap
21:18:27 <slava> i'm implementing an incremental gc soon
21:18:30 <sproingie> as opposed to incremental, which lets you do some gc and pause it
21:18:30 <slava> i want soft real time guarantees
21:18:58 <sproingie> that will be extremely cool
21:19:14 <slava> sbcl doesn't even have gengc on non-x86 yet :)
21:19:26 <amca> I see
21:19:38 <sproingie> you really oughta implement a lisp on top of the factor vm
21:19:51 <sproingie> or i should dig up a round tuit and try it myself
21:20:17 <sproingie> put too much on my plate these past months, most projects just sort of slid off :(
21:22:03 <amca> heh
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22:42:00 <snowrichard> hi
22:43:34 <amca> hello again
22:44:36 <snowrichard> got the suse install started
22:44:50 <snowrichard> had to change out cdrom.  That's 2 in a row
22:45:00 <amca> huh?
22:45:05 <amca> faulty CDROM?
22:45:12 <snowrichard> two machines with bad cdrom.  they were used
22:45:23 <amca> lmao
22:45:24 <amca> oops
22:45:37 <amca> bad drives you are talking about, right?
22:45:40 <snowrichard> yeah
22:45:46 <snowrichard> wouldn't boot from them
22:45:54 <amca> Old drives?
22:45:59 <snowrichard> yeah
22:46:31 <amca> bummer
22:46:38 <amca> You used Suse before?
22:46:39 <snowrichard> the machines were free
22:46:50 <snowrichard> I have suse on this one
22:47:32 <amca> How does it compare to other distros, like Debian or Redhat?
22:47:52 <snowrichard> debian is stable and easy to set up but the software versions are a lot older. 
22:48:18 <snowrichard> I have not used Fedora much.  Redhat back in the old days at 5.2 I used.
22:49:33 <amca> That's when I started, about then
22:50:35 <snowrichard> the monitor I had hooked up at first didn't sync right.  I switched it out too. 
22:50:49 <amca> My gosh you are having heaps of probs
22:50:55 <amca> What type of machines are these?
22:51:01 <snowrichard> old -- K6 400
22:51:19 <snowrichard> but free -- my mother bought out the school computer lab surplus
22:51:42 <snowrichard> 100 computers for 50 bucks I think
22:51:53 <amca> What was K6 equivelant to? Pentium Pro?
22:52:01 <amca> sweet :)
22:52:41 <snowrichard> she sold most of them on ebay.  The ones I am picking through now were missing ram or like I said the cdroms didn't work. I also had to reset the bios password on this one.
22:53:12 <amca> hehe
22:53:12 <snowrichard> pull the battery, change the jumper, wait 1 minute change jumper back, reinstall battery
22:53:30 <snowrichard> so now the clock is wrong
22:54:09 <amca> Is it pre y2k?
22:54:38 <snowrichard> the clock is set like sept 2005 right now, after I install suse I'll set up ntp
22:55:34 <amca> ah
22:56:17 <snowrichard> this will give me 3 linux machines and 1 Windows XP system, and 1 I am giving away
22:56:35 <snowrichard> the other 2 linux machines will run w/o monitor though
22:57:18 <amca> headless? running everywhere randomly like a chicken? :)
22:57:33 <snowrichard> I can ssh
22:57:52 * amca nods
22:58:01 <amca> Or telnet...
22:58:24 <snowrichard> telnet leaves clear text passwords
22:58:57 <amca> where does it leave it?
22:59:04 <snowrichard> when you log in
22:59:31 <amca> *where* does it leave it?
22:59:50 <snowrichard> in the packets sent, not permanently I meant
23:00:03 <amca> ah
23:00:08 * amca nods
23:00:28 <amca> I thought you meant you could look it up in a file or such
23:01:00 <snowrichard> its no wonder I had to take the freshman english course 6 times.  that bump on the head scrambled my language processing I think :) 
23:01:21 <snowrichard> left frontal lobe
23:02:35 <amca> ah well
23:03:02 <amca> I have problems finding the right words too but I dont have your reasons :)
23:03:20 <snowrichard> think I'll go grab a snack and refill my coffee.  brb
23:03:35 <amca> k
23:06:44 <snowrichard> got an apple
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23:07:31 <snowrichard> you here twice ? :) 
23:07:39 <amca_> yeah, got d/c
23:08:02 <snowrichard> dialup?
23:08:15 <amca_> yep 
23:08:18 <amca_> 4 hour limit
23:09:10 <snowrichard> its getting cold in here even with the fire on
23:09:27 <amca_> bad isulation?
23:09:33 <amca_> (ins)
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23:10:51 <snowrichard> google gives the temp outside as 42F
23:13:41 <snowrichard> I don't have any control over the insulation -- its  a rental house. 
23:14:17 <amca> what about adding it to the inside walls?
23:14:37 <snowrichard> my last natural gas bill went way up: 179.00 and that was after a 5 credit for deposit interest. 
23:15:16 <snowrichard> electricity is cheap though, less than $40
23:16:39 * amca mutters somehting about wrecking the atmosphere making excessive use of electricity okay
23:18:13 <snowrichard> excessive use? you mean the 4 computers running 24/7 and all my lights on?  :) 
23:18:54 <amca> Maybe :)
23:19:18 <snowrichard> its a bit more when I am running the air conditioners
23:19:49 * amca nods
23:19:53 <amca> I can imagine
23:20:02 <amca> At least it is not a waste runing the computers in wnter ;)
23:20:10 <snowrichard> steadily depressing low down mind messing workin at the car wash blues .. Jim Croce
23:20:51 <amca> lol
23:21:31 <snowrichard> my senior class in high school picked his "I got a Name" for class song.
23:22:05 <amca> Dont know it
23:22:41 <snowrichard> was popular then in 75
23:23:36 <amca> You mean the year I was born? ;)
23:23:53 <snowrichard> you yuppie larvae :) 
23:24:33 <snowrichard> yeah I'm an old man.  I feel it in my bones when it get cold like this :) 
23:26:06 <snowrichard> still have 1.05 GB left to download ...
23:26:23 <amca> broadband?
23:26:34 <snowrichard> yes 2500Kbps
23:26:54 <snowrichard> not sure what speed the server is actually giving me
23:27:45 <snowrichard> usually around 250K chars/sec
23:28:06 <amca> hehe
23:29:16 <snowrichard> bought another optical mouse the other day
23:29:43 <amca> how many do you have?
23:29:48 <snowrichard> two now
23:29:50 * amca hasnt got one
23:29:55 <snowrichard> 10 bucks
23:31:38 <amca> yeah, I know. 
23:31:59 <amca> But I have other things I need to buy more that i dont have like household stuff
23:32:05 <snowrichard> the non-optical one next to it was the same price, so why not
23:33:11 <snowrichard> my mom has been in charge of my money since last June.  I've been able to buy 2 air conditioners, a lawn mower, and refrigerator, when before I was always out of money at the end of the month. 
23:33:11 * amca nods
23:33:17 <amca> they are better
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23:49:20 <snowrichard> more spam -- I have won a lottery I didn't enter, several nigerians want to share 14.5 million dollars with me :) 
23:49:52 <amca> Gonna ask them for a financial transfer fee? :)
23:50:37 <snowrichard> I don't know why my address on my own server is collecting so many of these now
23:51:04 <snowrichard> probably messed up and posted in a newsgroup with it
23:55:01 <amca> hmm :/
23:57:37 <snowrichard> ebay has suspended my account yet again, second time in two days....
23:58:10 <snowrichard> before I could log in to update my phone number and stuff
23:58:40 <amca> why did they suspend it?
23:59:03 <snowrichard> said an unauthorized person was accessing it .. that they couldn't share details.
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