00:00:00 --- log: started forth/06.01.11 00:20:47 --- quit: JasonWoof ("off to bed") 01:01:22 --- quit: warpzero (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 01:02:12 --- join: warpzero (n=warpzero@wza.us) joined #forth 01:31:32 --- join: nballen (n=nballen@adsl-69-111-249-96.dsl.renocs.pacbell.net) joined #forth 01:49:34 --- join: Cheery (i=Henri@a81-197-18-99.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #forth 05:21:59 --- quit: nballen () 05:53:14 --- join: madwork (n=foo@derby.metrics.com) joined #forth 06:43:09 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pete@0-1pool47-40.nas30.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 06:49:15 --- join: sproingie (n=chuck@64-121-2-59.c3-0.sfrn-ubr8.sfrn.ca.cable.rcn.com) joined #forth 07:04:03 --- quit: PoppaVic (Nick collision from services.) 07:04:17 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pete@0-1pool64-110.nas22.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 07:57:15 --- join: virl (i=core@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at) joined #forth 08:01:37 --- quit: Quartus () 08:12:59 --- quit: sproingie (Remote closed the connection) 09:00:12 --- join: sproingie (n=chuck@64-121-2-59.c3-0.sfrn-ubr8.sfrn.ca.cable.rcn.com) joined #forth 09:27:51 --- quit: PoppaVic ("Pulls the pin...") 09:30:16 --- join: JasonWoof (n=jason@pdpc/supporter/student/Herkamire) joined #forth 09:30:16 --- mode: ChanServ set +o JasonWoof 09:46:18 --- quit: madwork ("?OUT OF DATA ERROR") 09:49:59 --- join: madwork (n=foo@derby.metrics.com) joined #forth 10:05:41 --- join: tathi (n=josh@pdpc/supporter/bronze/tathi) joined #forth 11:49:06 --- join: snoopy_1711 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-144-179.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 11:49:37 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Nick collision from services.) 11:50:03 --- nick: snoopy_1711 -> Snoopy42 14:14:57 --- quit: Cheery ("Leaving") 14:31:58 --- join: slava (n=slava@CPE0080ad77a020-CM000e5cdfda14.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 14:37:41 --- quit: Raystm2 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 14:45:58 --- join: Raystm2 (n=Raystm2@ppp-70-248-32-20.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 15:16:58 --- join: Quartus (n=trailer@CPE0001023f6e4f-CM013349902843.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 15:17:05 what is the origin of the word applet? where does it comes from(which words)? ok, application and ...? 15:17:21 application, and a diminutive suffix 15:17:42 diminutive suffix? 15:18:08 Yes, a suffix that suggests a smaller version of a thing. 15:19:15 I'm searching for a word which specify an initialization code, but it's not called initialization or constructor, hmm something funky. 15:19:19 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diminutive 15:21:07 I think 'initlet' looks fine. 15:28:56 Not to an english-speaker, but if it works for you... 15:34:00 -let tends to get used for things like: pig -> piglet. Big->smaller. 15:34:27 'initlet' suggests that there's an init, and initlets are offspring of it. 15:39:36 For example: drop/droplet, book/booklet, table/tablet, and even crater/craterlet. 15:51:37 * JasonWoof agrees with Quartus 15:51:53 an "initlet" would be a small "init" 15:51:54 hmm, ok then I'll look for something else, I don't want that some sensible english people die when they read initlet 15:52:47 "prepare" 15:52:50 "setup" 15:53:30 "growup" 15:53:33 * JasonWoof grins 15:53:38 "mature" :) 15:53:56 I doubt 'initlet' will actually kill anyone, but it may be confusing. 15:55:44 "getready" 15:56:24 yes may be, but 'initialization code, which setups instruction set' is strange 15:56:26 I like "init" myself 15:56:46 virl: are you trying to name a member function? 15:56:59 virl: or are you looking for some term to use in documentation? or what? 15:57:10 the second 15:57:21 "initialization code which sets up the instruction set" is fine 15:58:03 for me it's grip into a toilet 15:58:26 well, what's it do really? 15:58:49 why not "code which initializes the instruction set" 15:59:26 --- join: amca (n=plump@as-bri-4-1-64.ozonline.com.au) joined #forth 15:59:54 or even "instruct-init" 16:00:09 ? 16:00:16 I don't want to use at every location where I need it and also I don't want to use references to this term. only some simple word, people like simple words for remembering 16:00:18 Naming discussion. Virl. 16:00:19 Can I ask what we are talking about here? 16:00:27 thanks :) 16:00:58 Perhaps 'init-instruct' or something like that. Put the verb first. 16:01:19 Though 'every location where I need it' sounds odd to me -- if it's an initialization, isn't it done once (initially)? 16:10:50 eh, no.. 16:11:27 an initialization occures oftener in a program than one time 16:11:47 Then perhaps 'initialization' is a poor choice of word. 16:12:21 'reset', maybe. 16:13:12 * amca nods 16:14:03 ok, then give me a better one, for something which occures before accessing/manipulating of a specific ressource/variables/arrays/memory area happens. 16:14:32 I don't know what that 'something' is. A prepration? A reset? 16:14:53 "setup"? 16:15:07 a preparation 16:15:10 'setup' implies early and one-time, too. 16:15:12 hi 16:15:17 Good point 16:15:19 Ok. prepare-instruction-set. 16:15:20 Hi Ray] 16:15:24 Hi Raystm2. 16:15:27 * Raystm2 reads the backlog 16:15:56 Or prepinstr, if you're going for computerese. 16:15:57 setup, prepare, ugh, reads terrible 16:16:38 terrible? Nothing wrong with either word. It's more important to use a correct word than it is to use one that sounds computery or cool. 16:16:38 what is it preparing for? 16:16:52 * amca agrees with Quartus 16:17:31 Prepare, establish, re-establish. 16:17:48 the preparation is an own program and I think it's important that it's not reading terrible. 16:18:16 Ok, well, you've had a lot of applicable answers to your question. Go forth and do what you were going to do anyway. :) 16:20:07 right :) 16:20:39 there must be the right word for the right thing. 16:21:01 What does it do? 16:21:05 virl: In English there are many right words for the right thing 16:21:16 Is it an action word? or a name? 16:23:10 it should be a name 16:23:59 But apparently you think there are various 'terrible' words which, while accurate, sound bad to you. 16:26:27 they sound bad and they don't mean the same, they only mean an abstract version of it. 16:26:50 Back to " What does it do" ? 16:27:17 --- join: nballen (n=nballen@adsl-69-111-249-96.dsl.renocs.pacbell.net) joined #forth 16:27:29 My father has always been partial to "framis", when he can't think of the word he needs. 16:27:52 --- join: verbatim (n=verb@130-127-44-5.chouse.resnet.clemson.edu) joined #forth 16:29:51 I'm searching for a name for a program which initialize and nothing more. for example (C Code): void main(){ int a=3, b=4; } 16:30:21 That one is called 'main'. 16:30:42 that's C specific 16:31:23 Well, you've said your program doesn't initialize, because it isn't only run initially. So 'initialize', 'init', they're not going to work. So what exactly does this program do? 16:31:24 init-er 16:31:41 whatever it seems that I need to experiment with it. 16:31:55 E-nit 16:31:58 So you have some vague program that you don't know what it'll do, but it's really, really important to name it well right now? 16:32:14 virl: Do you mean you want a word name that for every program you right can be the name of the word that is run first? 16:32:35 Oh that's called What's-is. 16:32:45 Or 't', my personal favourite. 16:32:59 t the testing name. 16:33:01 I like 'start', but 'go' seems popular 16:33:09 amca, near as I can tell he wants to name some particular program. 16:33:30 namelet 16:33:58 Quartus: He doesnt see very clear about the program which suggests perhaps it hasnt been coded well? 16:33:59 throw your whole hand at the keyboard and come up with something like --- a;chvpa 16:34:19 whatever ... 16:34:27 that's good as well. 16:34:33 whateverlet 16:34:33 whatever is long to type. 16:34:43 amca, I'm not sure what has been coded. 16:34:51 Or what it should be named. 16:35:03 I do think that initialization routines should be run initially. 16:35:04 ok, I don't ask you again. 16:35:08 hehe 16:35:09 Quartus: Exactly what I mean. 16:35:12 virl, you haven't asked me once. 16:35:14 sorry virl. 16:35:30 codelet 16:36:01 i-let 16:36:04 eyelet 16:36:19 inlet 16:36:31 virl: You need to be very clear about what you are coding before you name stuff, and it doesnt seem at the moment that you are. 16:36:53 OR maybe the code is very clear, but the audience is not? 16:37:12 perhaps 16:37:16 clearlet 16:37:40 thing-that-does-stuff (not recommended) 16:38:02 amca, don't assume something about what you don't know. 16:38:04 tini which is init backwards and stiil imples 'let" 16:38:34 * Raystm2 likes backWords 16:38:40 virl: I was talking about general principles that nearly always apply 16:38:47 changelet 16:39:41 amca, I know what I'm coding. 16:39:57 chalet 16:40:49 diminutive version of changelet = chalet and a nice place to stay when your codeing.on codine 16:41:02 lol 16:41:51 Anybody else want there moneyback for all the cough syrup they have ingested over a lifetime of colds? 16:42:07 --- quit: virl ("Verlassend") 16:42:57 * amca hardly has had to have any cough syrup in his life 16:43:26 I rarely take even asprin. 16:43:47 I like street drugs. At least you know they work. 16:44:07 lol And if they dont, at least they only kill you :) 16:44:20 my parents gave me dimetapp, which is one of the ones that actually is effective 16:44:25 AND it's the only free trade left on the planet. 16:44:35 dimetapp == dipenhydramine == benadryl 16:45:11 ya benadryl is the thing that dry's you up.At least you can breath. 16:45:18 But it does nothing for the cough 16:46:29 that's usually what causes the cough 16:46:37 dry cough, just suck on a cough drop 16:47:16 think i will. 16:52:43 hehe " You know you want me, baby!" found on Quartus's ebay sale. 16:54:10 O_O 16:54:13 url? 16:57:35 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4820097120 16:59:26 * amca looks 17:02:18 That was his self-proclaimed trademark phrase. :) 17:02:36 hehe 17:22:21 --- join: EtherNet (n=EtherNet@host146.201-252-67.telecom.net.ar) joined #forth 17:23:50 So what is everyone up to currently? 17:24:07 I am reading a bit... 17:24:09 and you? 17:24:40 * tathi is trying to improve URL pasting in Dillo 17:25:08 Just recovering fro my gf visiting 17:25:16 EtherNet: May I ask what you are reading? 17:25:23 amca, LoL.... a wild visit? 17:25:38 tathi: Dillo sounds familiar. What is it please? 17:25:43 I am reading Modern Operating Systems 2nd Ed by Tanenbaum 17:25:47 currently with no success (damn GTK) 17:25:49 DIllo is a browser 17:25:59 Dillo is a ... what he said :) 17:26:17 http://www.dillo.org/ 17:27:22 :) 17:28:04 Ah, that's why it is familiar. 17:28:53 EtherNet: Sounds good. Online or in hardcopy format? 17:29:11 I have both versions.. but currently reading .pdf version 17:34:23 tathi: What aspect of the pasting is what you want to improve? 17:36:01 Well, in Firefox you can hit the paste button anywhere; if your mouse cursor is on the url box, it just pastes it, otherwise it just goes to the URL. 17:36:11 I was hoping to duplicate that in Dillo. 17:36:41 But I don't think I know enough about GTK to do it...and I don't think GTK makes that sort of thing easy to do. :( 17:37:54 :/ 17:38:15 Hit paste as in ctrl-v, or as in middle click? 17:38:32 both, preferably. 17:38:56 * amca nods 17:43:16 Wouldnt pasting be part of GNOME as opposed to GTK? 17:43:50 --- join: asymptote (n=weldon@pool-151-200-140-211.res.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 17:44:24 GTK is the widget library 17:45:10 * amca nods 17:46:03 I would have thought that pasting and "clipboard" stuff would be more desktop area. Not that I know much about all this stuff. 17:46:39 I believe the actual clipboard is (at least partly) handled by the X server. 17:47:11 but GTK (or maybe lower, Glib?) certainly adds another layer, might even totally re-implement it. 17:48:04 * amca nods 17:48:11 makes sense 17:48:33 GTK has most of the support -- there might be a GNOME desktop function to let you mess with the various clipboards or whatever. 17:49:04 I see 17:54:26 X desktops have a problem (or "feature") that there are two orthogonal ideas of copying and pasting 17:54:33 one from X and one from the widget library 17:54:51 * amca nods 17:55:08 As in middle click from X and ctrl-v from widget? 17:55:42 depending on your library, yes 17:55:51 X has an idea of a current selection 17:56:14 most libs have an idea of a kill-ring or something like it 17:56:23 which is automagically the clipboard at the same time 17:56:24 (though none of them, for shame, are compatible with emacs) 18:00:08 oh, right...the widget libraries try and copy the "current selection" out to the X selection at the appropriate time 18:00:15 and don't always get it right 18:01:12 :( 18:01:24 they're close though 18:01:35 A Linux desktop is such an incredible pile of software -- I'm always amazed that it works at all. :) 18:01:37 honestly I don't know about QT since I never use i 18:01:39 *it 18:01:43 but gtk2 is almost there 18:01:55 yeah, it seems fairly decent. 18:02:45 if you're into widgets, which I'm not 18:02:55 --- quit: asymptote ("Leaving") 18:03:29 * crc wonders what changed from gtk1 to gtk2 18:04:21 * tathi has the impression that they rewrote a lot of the internals to try and make things more consistent 18:05:10 tathi: What are you into instead of widgets? 18:05:22 crc: Does rf have graphics routines? 18:06:48 amca: not built in 18:06:49 amca: interfaces that work with the keyboard, and that become habitual easily. 18:07:07 there are some bindings to Allegro, and I'm looking into supporting SDL 18:07:12 Ah 18:07:29 crc: you were messing with rf/gtk recently, weren't you? 18:07:37 yes, with Gtk 1.2 18:07:55 tathi: I like UIs that allow you to totally control the UI with either exclusively, so depending on my mood depends on how I use it. 18:10:20 yeah, I guess either alone would be fine, except...you can't exactly type with a mouse. 18:18:28 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 18:20:39 --- quit: EtherNet ("Leaving") 18:21:10 tathi: Oh, really? What about a screen keyboard? :P 18:21:17 oops 18:21:32 * amca curses his selective readingf 18:21:42 I find onscreen keyboards to be rather inefficient most of the time 18:22:51 --- quit: sproingie ("Leaving") 18:22:59 --- join: sproingie (n=chuck@64-121-2-59.c3-0.sfrn-ubr8.sfrn.ca.cable.rcn.com) joined #forth 18:26:29 crc: They are :) 18:27:11 Quartus: How (in)efficient is the Palm Pilot onscreen keyboard compared to Graffiti? 18:31:33 I prefer graffiti. Never timed a comparison. 18:31:40 If I'm in a rush I use the portable keyboard. 18:31:58 Quartus: As in hardware kbd? 18:32:01 Right. 18:33:02 I'm slightly faster with graffiti than the onscreen keyboard for most things 18:33:28 I almost never use the pop-up keyboard. 18:35:07 Anyone have opinions on how chuck moore uses the kbd in colorforth? 18:35:32 I've never managed to get used to the keyboard in c4th 18:36:43 I havent tried it much, but it seems to me that such a scheme is more appropriate to mobile interfaces rather than desktop ones 18:36:44 Raystm2 has no problems with it 18:38:00 * amca guessed that :) 18:38:44 It reminds me of the interface to the screens on ATMs or in modern military "glass cockpit" jets 18:44:28 I prefer a normal layout for desktop work 18:44:37 * amca nods 18:45:19 have you guys seen this http://www.artlebedev.com/portfolio/optimus/ 18:45:19 crc: how is the manual going? 18:45:29 (speaking of keyboards) 18:46:04 amca: it's slowly evolving 18:46:25 the Rx part of it is pretty much done, but the RetroForth-specific additions have yet to be started 18:47:02 nballen, I've never seen the point of that. Typing is done by touch, not by looking at whatever's on the keycap; having the keycap picture change would make it impossible. 18:47:10 * amca nods 18:47:30 Quartus: Useful for gaming 18:47:37 well, it could help make custom layouts more tractable 18:47:50 Gamers map whatever keys they require to whatever functions they think they need, and then they run by touch. 18:47:54 to help you get used to your custom language specific bindings or something 18:48:23 But you have to be touch-typing, or you'll never have any speed. Your errors will quickly-enough acclimatize you to the bindings. 18:48:24 Some of us luser gamers have to still look at the keys 18:48:45 you could map the f1-f13 keys to emacs or vi key combinations or something 18:48:55 (when your left pinky stars to hurt) 18:49:01 point 18:49:08 You can do that without making the keycaps change. 18:49:40 yes, but this would look cooler than little yellow sticky notes taped over the keys 18:49:43 :) 18:50:08 I'm sure it'll sell to people just because it's novel. But I can't see any practical use that'd justify it for me. 18:50:40 nballen: I'd be hard pressed to use it for any length of time; I've grown spoiled by the various split keyboards I've used over the last few years 18:51:01 Using any kind of custom binding anchors you to your own keyboard, which can be a serious limitation if you expect to be working on other systems with any regularity. 18:51:34 Quartus: True 18:51:53 crc: what advantage do you feel those give you? (I suddenly can't touch type when I use them) 18:51:55 * crc could see it being useful in a few areas; such as CAD work 18:52:11 nballen: less strain on my wrists; I have severe CTS 18:52:19 ah 18:52:27 Split keyboards spoil my touch-typing too. Though I've only been subjected to the horrible Microsoft one, perhaps others are better. 18:53:22 I use a microsoft one presently, though there are some adjustable ones that are more comfortable, albeit more expensive 18:54:24 I use an IBM Model M, hopefully I'll always be able to. 18:57:24 I use whatever keyboard I can get for free (the old ones are the better ones imo) and rip out the capslock and windows keys 19:03:41 No windows key on a Model M. The Caps Lock key doesn't bother me. 19:04:35 that optimus keyboard doesn't actually exist. those are design mockups 19:05:11 Seems it wouldn't be so hard to build. 19:05:19 sure. expensive tho 19:05:26 hard to engineer for durability too 19:05:58 All the better, sell new ones every few months. :) 19:06:00 105+ little OLED screens that have to resist constant smashing 19:06:26 hehe 19:06:39 And water etc 19:07:05 users of them will probably be pretty careful with them. but wear is wear 19:07:42 sproingie: But their kids wont be so careful with them :) 19:07:43 Somehow I think this will sell to pointy-haired bosses who don't actually use their computers. 19:08:10 no, it will sell to artsy types who buy cd players with doors that slide open when they wave their hand 19:08:25 Quartus: You would need to have an animated key that says "This is the Any Key" 19:08:48 i used to put an "any" sticker on the blank key on the sun keyboard 19:09:00 hehe 19:09:36 that key was always the greatest. so mysterious.. 19:09:43 i think it's gone from newer keyboards 19:10:46 sproingie: Did it return an ASCII value, or just a kbd code? 19:39:06 it seemed to return nothing 19:39:14 in emacs it did seem to do something 19:40:18 hm 20:22:08 --- quit: amca (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 20:54:58 --- join: amca (n=plump@as-bri-3-195.ozonline.com.au) joined #forth 21:40:25 --- quit: saon ("leaving") 21:41:43 --- join: saon (i=1000@unaffiliated/saon) joined #forth 22:06:46 --- quit: sproingie (Remote closed the connection) 22:13:49 --- quit: Jim7J1AJH ("leaving") 22:14:25 --- join: Jim7J1AJH (n=jim@221x115x224x2.ap221.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) joined #forth 22:58:28 --- join: JasonWoo1 (n=jason@c-71-192-33-206.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) joined #forth 23:14:53 --- quit: JasonWoof (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/06.01.11