00:00:00 --- log: started forth/06.01.03 00:00:15 JasonWoof: As in it is different from Misty Forth? 00:03:14 now have all 3 servers working www.richardsnow.net test.richardsnow.net test2.richardsnow.net 00:07:17 O_O 00:08:38 Why two test servers? 00:09:15 --- nick: segher_ -> segher 00:13:13 because they were free? 00:13:35 my mom gave them to me 00:13:55 lol :P 00:14:14 she had bought out the school computer lab surplus 00:14:23 100 computers for $50 bucks or so 00:14:36 two truckloads 00:15:32 amca: never heard of misty forth 00:15:38 amca: can't find it on google either 00:15:47 Floyd -- wish I had blue lights again .. :) 00:16:28 I have a sadly out of date tarbal 00:16:29 momentary lapse of reason 00:16:38 entire album 00:16:42 JasonWoof: It is a Java based forth 00:16:47 hell no 00:17:02 maybe I have the name wrong. 00:17:03 it's in a VM written in C 00:17:09 it is Misty Something 00:17:33 I had coded one I called Michael written in C 00:17:40 Michael is my son's name 00:18:08 I probably won't bother making another tarbal until I make something usable 00:18:19 lost the code when I closed down my web server due to expenses crunch 00:18:24 right now it's basically execute-only 00:18:32 you can't edit or create definitions 00:18:51 always backup programming projects 00:18:56 anyway, I just realized it's after 3am 00:19:03 meant to go to bed at 2:30 00:19:04 2 here 00:19:18 I wait until bank opens so I can go kvetch at them 00:20:06 the sources to mist aren't terribly accessible 00:20:11 deposit check on 31st, and can't get to the money till tommorrow night 00:20:13 as they are cross-compiled from herkforth 00:20:24 so you can have a copy of herkforth with the sources in 00:20:27 --- join: nballen (n=nballen@adsl-69-111-248-132.dsl.renocs.pacbell.net) joined #forth 00:20:37 (herkforth is binary-only for ppc-linux) 00:20:50 I have no ppc 00:20:53 or you can have the mist memory image, which runs under fovium, but has no source browser 00:21:12 it has a word that dumps the whole sources to the screen, but it scrolls too fast... 00:21:22 herkforth also runs on non-ppc linux with the help of qemu 00:21:23 can redirect? no? 00:21:38 qemu does ppc? ok 00:21:40 the sources to the VM are quite legible though 00:21:49 yeah, qemu does ppc quite well 00:22:19 my brother programs missile on ppc platform using VxWorks 00:22:28 Raytheon 00:22:52 sounds farmilliar 00:23:13 he did the user interface for the operators in Java 00:23:20 --- quit: segher (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 00:23:22 heh 00:23:33 funny all this connection between java and forth 00:23:39 I think of them as pretty much opposites 00:23:49 missile has a camera feed that sends live video to the operator 00:24:11 forth is my favorite language, java my least favorite 00:24:21 JasonWoof: Why is that? 00:24:35 I've really not done any major project in forth or Java, I use C most of the time 00:24:39 amca: it never works properly 00:24:41 it's complex 00:24:46 it tryes to do everything for you 00:24:47 * amca tends to think of lisp as more of the direct opposite of Forth 00:24:56 it has completely incomprehensible error messages 00:24:56 Ah. Java is like a Mac :) 00:24:58 my brother likes lisp. 00:25:08 it's slow as all getout on every computer I've ever had 00:25:13 snowrichard: Kill him! ;) 00:25:26 JasonWoof: That is my main prob with Java 00:25:38 and even on computers that have fancy jit compilers for it it's still slow as molasis in january to start up 00:25:41 but he won't program the missiles in lisp :) 00:26:08 Like the lang, dislike the vm/speed part 00:26:12 i prefer java to perl, php, and python 00:26:31 if you think java is slow, try python :) 00:26:40 I've never actually programmed anything in java 00:26:46 I have tried python, php, not perl 00:26:51 I got pissed at the book I was reading about it. 00:27:07 I have that book I think 24 hours teach yourself java 2 :) 00:27:12 bugged my to no end that it worked pretty much the same way C++ did (superficially) but used totally different terminology for everything 00:27:23 no, its quite different from C++ 00:27:32 there's garbage collection, and no pointer arithmetic 00:27:33 the basic stuff 00:27:35 you have objects 00:27:41 no value types 00:27:41 they have member functions and data 00:28:22 I read the camel book on perl though 00:28:26 slava: Somehow I find python faster 00:28:28 now I think I know the java terminology so I probably wouldn't have that problem 00:28:31 I hate perl 00:28:39 amca: python is hundreds of times slower 00:28:45 well, have fun arguing languages :) I gotta go to bed 00:28:48 * JasonWoof waves 00:29:04 --- quit: JasonWoof ("off to bed") 00:30:00 slava: hmmm. I ought to double check 00:30:16 Perhaps it is cause python is more linux friendly that it seems faster 00:30:42 python is not linux friendly, its just total junk 00:30:46 i don't like java, but python is far worse 00:31:11 Could you please explain how python is more shit than java? 00:31:11 you don't like the "benevolent dictator" approach :? 00:31:21 Guido 00:31:37 for one, the interpreter is very, very slow 00:31:47 also, the syntax is a mess 00:31:59 * amca nods 00:32:02 basic features like 'lambda' are broken 00:32:08 what about the syntax dont you like? 00:32:11 uses whitespace for control structures 00:32:23 its hard to parse; there's inconsistencies like 'print' is a statement, not a function 00:32:40 * amca nods 00:32:46 Fair enough 00:33:00 why dont you like java apart from speed? 00:33:11 speed is not my concern with java 00:33:23 ok 00:33:31 what is? The lang or the libraries? 00:33:37 i don't like static typing, especially the broken static typing in java; i don't like the lack of closures or other expressive features, and i don't like the design of the library 00:34:46 how is the static typing broken? 00:35:21 'null' references; generics are poorly designed; primitive types, arrays are not polymorphic 00:35:34 how long have you used java? 00:35:59 I only used it for a little bit years ago when it was Java 1.1 00:36:16 i used it from 1996 (java 1.0.2) to 2003 (java 1.5) 00:36:24 I got too frustrated with it 00:36:35 I dont disbelief what you say about it 00:36:47 i wrote hundreds of lines of java code, i don't want to again 00:36:52 hundreds of thousands even 00:36:57 (disbelieve) 00:36:58 hehe 00:37:04 for work? 00:37:09 and for fun 00:37:18 lol 00:37:26 How could you do it for fun if you dont like it? 00:37:31 i used to like it 00:37:48 snowrichard: where does your brother work for raytheon? 00:37:49 Ah 00:38:05 Tuscon AZ 00:38:07 when and what changed your mind? 00:38:25 noticing flaws over time 00:38:38 * amca nods 00:38:46 snowrichard: ah, I have a couple of friends who worked for raytheon out of la 00:38:59 cool, I just reused my first CD/RW. K3b asked me if I wanted to erase it. 00:38:59 More experience coding allowed you to see lang flaws clearer eh? 00:39:35 los angeles? 00:39:41 yes, sorry 00:39:45 O_O I thought *I* was a slow adoptr of CD-RW 00:39:45 La is louisiana in this neck of the woods :) 00:39:47 L.A. 00:39:50 eheh 00:39:57 I'm in east texas 00:40:03 slava: What do you think of C? 00:40:06 --- join: segher (n=segher@dsl77-24-100.fastxdsl.nl) joined #forth 00:40:54 reno, nv here 00:40:56 :) 00:41:09 my son bought me a 25 pack of CD/RW for christmas 00:41:11 amca: i like C for low-level tasks 00:41:17 amca: the factor VM is written in C 00:41:27 * amca nods 00:41:44 I got him a cdburner 00:41:50 slava: How do you like asms? 00:42:06 have $0.60 cents commission from ordering through my affiliate link 00:42:19 amca: i know x86, amd64 and ppc assembly 00:42:24 i don't like assembly 00:42:32 i write assembly because i maintain compiler backends 00:42:34 my first assembler lang. was IBM 360 00:42:46 snowrichard: hehe 00:42:47 then 6502 00:43:17 I wrote the 6502 assembler in machine code 00:43:22 snowrichard: ever z80 or 68k? 00:43:33 used Z80 on a Trash-dos model III 00:43:39 hehe 00:43:41 68K for a class 00:44:01 slava: What is it about assembler for low level coding that you dont like? 00:44:14 well, i view assembler in the same way as C 00:44:18 its a tool for low-level code 00:44:21 not for writing applications 00:44:21 I ported the Small-C compiler to the 68K (as a cross-compiler) 00:44:31 forth, too. 00:45:55 snowrichard: So are pretty used to low level coding then :) 00:46:18 I have a letter of commendation for writing a Nova 820 bootloader when I was in the Navy 00:46:27 sweet :D 00:46:44 slava: What circumstances would you find asm acceptable? Only for compiler backends? 00:46:47 got around a broken cassette tape drive 00:46:48 amca: yes 00:46:56 slava: Fair enough :) 00:47:10 slava: Do you prefer Forth or C? 00:47:15 forth 00:47:18 brb 00:48:18 How did you go about picking C instead of Forth for the Factor runtime? 00:48:30 its cold again need to light the gas heater again. wish it had a thermostat 00:49:18 amca: gcc produces more efficient code; C is more portable; i don't need the bloat of having a forth underneath with its own interactive parser and dictionary 00:50:15 * amca nods 00:50:26 why did you use C, not x86? 00:50:57 because i support 3 platforms 00:51:01 and plan on supporting ARM in the future 00:51:13 cool 00:51:33 If Factor was only for 1 platform, would you use asm over C? 00:51:45 yes 00:52:11 actually, only if i found a way to write the GC in factor 00:52:14 i'm not writing a GC in assembly 00:52:23 hehe 00:52:27 makes sense 00:53:04 cool. I think I understand your pov 00:58:38 garbage collection is easy to write, even in assembler -- no real point in doing that, of course, as it won't speed it up 00:58:54 --- quit: nballen () 01:00:01 segher: What type of garbage collection is easiest? 01:00:27 mark'n'sweep or refcounting 01:02:39 generational and incremental GC is more involved 01:02:45 it would be an annoyance in assembly 01:02:55 my memory manager is about 500 lines of C 01:03:46 with mark and sweep, every variable has to have an extra byte attached to it to mark doesnt it? 01:04:13 every object 01:04:21 Ah 01:04:23 a variable is just a pointer 01:04:50 So every part of a struct doesnt need an extra byte, just the struct as a whole? 01:04:56 yes 01:05:32 cool 01:05:53 Only 1 bit in that mark byte is required. Is that correct? 01:06:08 yes 01:06:42 Is a byte or a word usually used? OIr alignment problems not as much of a problem compared to space? 01:06:52 OIr = Or are 01:07:11 you can have the marks in a separate area of memory, too 01:07:43 amca: usually you have a header with the type of object, and a mark bit 01:08:18 I see 01:08:24 makes sense 01:09:53 Well I have to go 01:10:01 Ill catch you guys later 01:10:05 (and any gals) 01:11:31 --- quit: amca ("g0n3") 01:12:15 geeh had to turn my xmms down. I think I need to install normalize to even out the volume settings on these songs 01:12:52 --- quit: snowrichard ("Leaving") 01:24:49 --- quit: segher ("Leaving") 01:58:18 --- join: Cheery (n=Henri@a81-197-18-99.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #forth 02:18:29 --- join: nballen (n=nballen@adsl-69-111-248-132.dsl.renocs.pacbell.net) joined #forth 03:10:10 --- quit: nballen () 04:05:36 --- join: aum (n=aum@60-234-156-82.bitstream.orcon.net.nz) joined #forth 04:13:20 --- part: aum left #forth 04:58:59 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@adsl-69-155-177-154.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net) joined #forth 05:00:28 slava: got my mainframe emulator up, got a "hello world" in assember to run 05:02:16 Which kind of mainframe? 05:21:31 ho 05:21:40 IBM 370 series 05:21:55 its hercules emulator 05:22:37 MVS38j operating system (batch mode, cards, though it has a TSO option for terminal) 05:23:45 there is a linux shell script called 'sub' where I can submit ascii text files as EBCDIC card decks. (it converts the char set) 05:25:08 I've got VM/CMS too which is more interactive 05:27:07 but the VM/CMS editor is not much good 06:04:04 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pete@0-1pool66-155.nas22.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 06:36:24 --- quit: snowrichard (Remote closed the connection) 06:54:07 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@adsl-69-155-177-154.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net) joined #forth 06:58:38 --- quit: snowrichard (Client Quit) 07:28:34 --- quit: OrngeTide ("bye") 07:44:06 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@adsl-69-155-177-154.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net) joined #forth 07:44:20 --- join: sproingie (n=chuck@64-121-2-59.c3-0.sfrn-ubr8.sfrn.ca.cable.rcn.com) joined #forth 08:05:10 --- nick: Raystm2_ -> Raystm2 08:27:12 hi 08:27:20 hiho 08:27:25 lo 08:27:36 doing all kinds of wierdness last night 08:27:54 installed a IBM 370 emulator and MVS38j 08:28:37 and modified rstudio to use Amarok instead of xmms 08:29:11 see #rstudio 08:31:57 Neat. 08:57:38 kids 08:58:01 True. 08:58:26 hmm... rstudio? 08:58:30 my sister says the grandbaby said "Granny has a purple monster. she had to throw it out the window." 08:59:14 freshmeat.net rstudio page 08:59:20 a purple monster? 08:59:37 vivid imaginatioon (a three year old) 09:03:41 of what? 09:04:26 --- quit: snowrichard ("Leaving") 09:04:46 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@adsl-69-155-177-154.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net) joined #forth 09:06:28 Hi Robert. sorry was on phone again 09:06:53 pink floyd is like way too loud 09:25:30 --- quit: PoppaVic ("Pulls the pin...") 09:32:11 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pete@0-1pool65-143.nas22.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 09:35:22 boom 09:40:33 --- join: JasonWoof (n=jason@pdpc/supporter/student/Herkamire) joined #forth 09:40:33 --- mode: ChanServ set +o JasonWoof 09:41:11 --- quit: snowrichard ("Leaving") 10:20:08 somebody wanted to check skype over atlantic, who was that? 10:20:18 --- part: PoppaVic left #forth 10:30:10 --- quit: virl (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 11:10:24 --- join: virl (n=virl@62.178.85.149) joined #forth 11:39:18 --- join: snoopy_1711 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-180-234.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 11:39:18 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)) 11:39:27 --- nick: snoopy_1711 -> Snoopy42 13:09:24 --- join: Topaz (n=top@spc1-horn1-6-0-cust127.cosh.broadband.ntl.com) joined #forth 13:20:49 --- quit: Cheery ("Leaving") 14:18:48 --- join: nballen (n=nballen@adsl-69-111-248-132.dsl.renocs.pacbell.net) joined #forth 14:25:12 --- quit: nballen () 14:30:32 --- quit: Topaz ("Leaving") 15:43:26 --- join: nballen (n=nballen@adsl-69-111-248-132.dsl.renocs.pacbell.net) joined #forth 16:43:44 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@adsl-69-155-177-154.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net) joined #forth 17:09:49 evening all 17:44:34 --- quit: snowrichard ("Leaving") 18:02:43 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@adsl-69-155-177-154.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net) joined #forth 18:03:43 --- quit: snowrichard (Client Quit) 20:13:22 --- join: aum (n=aum@60-234-156-82.bitstream.orcon.net.nz) joined #forth 20:17:34 --- quit: aum (Client Quit) 21:34:06 --- join: Cheery (i=Henri@a81-197-18-99.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #forth 22:53:25 --- join: amca (n=plump@as-bri-1-192.ozonline.com.au) joined #forth 22:54:14 Hello 23:03:21 --- quit: sproingie (Remote closed the connection) 23:05:50 --- join: sproingie (n=chuck@64-121-2-59.c3-0.sfrn-ubr8.sfrn.ca.cable.rcn.com) joined #forth 23:22:58 --- quit: sproingie (Remote closed the connection) 23:24:35 --- quit: amca (Excess Flood) 23:27:56 --- join: amca (n=plump@as-bri-1-192.ozonline.com.au) joined #forth 23:29:27 --- quit: amca (Remote closed the connection) 23:33:04 --- join: amca (n=plump@as-bri-1-192.ozonline.com.au) joined #forth 23:34:31 --- quit: amca (Remote closed the connection) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/06.01.03