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03:51:24 <amca_at_cins> Hello\
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05:57:00 <virl> what does 'deterministic behavior' mean related to programming languages?
05:57:59 <segher> you have to narrow down the context a bit to get a useful answer
05:58:46 <virl> what does 'deterministic behavior' mean related to embedded programming languages?
05:59:43 <segher> heh
06:00:22 <segher> you'll have to get way more narrow...  like, give a quote or something?
06:02:05 <virl> "Among the most important requirements for embedded languages are deterministic behavior, small memory footprint, and efficient execution."
06:04:16 <virl> I know that forth has a low memory footprint, but does anybody knows how much exactly was the lowest memory footprint a forth had?
06:05:48 <PoppaVic> "that forth" - which forth? when? where? model?
06:05:59 <Robert> Depends - how much of a system do you need? Full compiler/interpreter/library?
06:06:27 <Robert> A couple of kB sounds reasonable for a simple system.
06:06:40 <PoppaVic> yeppers
06:06:42 <virl> generally I only want to know which was the lowest memory footprint a forth got.
06:06:51 <PoppaVic> prolly FIG
06:06:59 <virl> 5kb, 10kb?
06:07:06 <Robert> I think I did edForth with like 2kB.
06:07:08 <PoppaVic> minimal asm, large amounts of 2ndaries
06:07:22 <Robert> And tforth with like 4kB - but it had a lot more library functions.
06:07:32 <humulus> virl: that deterministic stuff, i only know what it is in theory, i.e. non deterministic turing machines, but with real programming lang. is there any sense?
06:07:46 <segher> i think with deterministic behaviour they mean, the generated code is very predictable from the source code
06:07:49 <virl> I don't know.
06:07:55 <PoppaVic> sounds silly to me
06:08:12 <PoppaVic> Either you want asm, or you trust a compiler
06:08:38 <virl> was a quote out of a 'why not embedded programming with java' article
06:08:40 <PoppaVic> I trusted TC and Borland for years, and have trusted gcc since <shrug>
06:08:48 <PoppaVic> ewwwwww
06:08:49 <humulus> segher: that is always the case i think :)
06:08:59 <segher> not at all
06:09:17 <PoppaVic> From what I've seen and heard, Java is like .Net: a monster PIG
06:09:24 <segher> for forth it is, with most forth systems -- but not for anything that does a lot of optimization
06:09:57 <virl> ok, so something around 2kb
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06:10:08 <humulus> segher: yeah optimization, but there is always one way, the code will be generated
06:10:17 <PoppaVic> well, the K is dependent upon capabilities and core and platform.
06:10:18 <humulus> great now he's gone
06:10:47 <virl> yes, I know a little bit bigger on 32bit cpus
06:10:50 <PoppaVic> I know that on my kaypro 4-64, FIG was ridiculously dinky.
06:11:23 <PoppaVic> otoh, it had a lot of precompiled words and loaded more on boot.
06:12:14 <PoppaVic> This is one of the reasons I always wanted to kick-in-the-nuts/boot-to-the-head Forth-authors/commies
06:13:13 <PoppaVic> you've got three universes... Turnkey; static; dynamic - and most authors won't recognize them or advantages
06:13:40 <PoppaVic> for C, you have static/dynamic
06:17:01 <virl> and for other systems only dynamic, a lot of todays programming languages are only dynamic.
06:17:18 <PoppaVic> Yeah.. It's not ALL good OR bad
06:17:52 <PoppaVic> Lon ago, I concluded that static-programs are shit you want to run as admin, regardless of how bad you booted-up
06:17:59 <PoppaVic> Lon/Long
06:18:23 <PoppaVic> Nothing wrong with the idea, but folks seem to think "dynamic is bad"
06:19:53 <Cheery> Hmm.
06:20:03 <Cheery> why people think dynamic is bad?
06:20:06 <Cheery> static is bad.
06:20:18 <PoppaVic> I would agree, but I've been both places
06:20:41 <PoppaVic> When the damned install didn't quite take, statics can save yer ass
06:21:10 <Cheery> I think C style is bad :)
06:21:18 <PoppaVic> If the dynamics/libs/linker all work right, hell yes: dynamics are a trifle slower to load, but run fine.
06:21:19 <Cheery> After I've been with lisp and forth.
06:21:40 <PoppaVic> I never used or WANT to use lisp. Forth still has issues with "the world"
06:22:10 <Cheery> I'd like some which are more like factor.
06:22:16 <PoppaVic> There are C-based forths, and those I tend to like quite well.
06:22:31 <PoppaVic> I dunno factor, and don't have the time to bother.
06:23:57 <virl> Cheery, why should be Forths more like factor?
06:24:35 <Cheery> I don't know. forth itself is quite good alreay.
06:24:45 <Cheery> but I liked factor as well.
06:24:59 <Cheery> even little more.
06:25:14 <Cheery> But it is still quite stub that I could use it.
06:25:18 <Cheery> bad documentation.
06:25:24 <virl> ok, what do you like about factor?
06:25:43 <PoppaVic> "stub"?
06:25:44 <Cheery> I liked those branches.
06:25:53 <Cheery> [ ] things.
06:26:18 <PoppaVic> that's switching from compile to interpret and back
06:26:22 <Cheery> And the ability to push objects into stack.
06:26:52 <virl> PoppaVic, in factor they represent a list, in factor jargon a 'sequence'
06:27:29 <PoppaVic> half-assed lisp/pseudo-forth?
06:28:43 <virl> yes, that's Factor
06:28:45 <PoppaVic> I still feel forthish could work better if the variant integrated better with gcc/asm/linker|loader
06:29:36 <PoppaVic> I figure forthish is like C: you can write either for a microdevice, and that's fine... But there is more out there.
06:30:20 <PoppaVic> And, I've always disagreed with Chuck... THere is no reason to rewrite code over and over - to do the same thing on several platforms.
06:30:56 <PoppaVic> Now, sure: the translation/filtering/optimizing/rules can change, but not the purpose.
06:31:44 <PoppaVic> and, forthish is ripe, too... Everyone is getting used to screwing with "variations"
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06:59:03 <Cheery> Do you know any forth implementation which has a proper FFI?
07:00:44 <PoppaVic> THe newest Gforth has FFI, but I can't get it to build proper
07:02:10 <Cheery> Does it support structs?
07:02:25 <PoppaVic> somewhere and how, sure
07:02:42 <PoppaVic> I can't tell you about it: I can't compile it.
07:02:58 <Cheery> damn
07:03:48 <PoppaVic> well, ok: I GOT it to build - but double's don't work right
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08:15:57 <Serg[GPRS]> hi !
08:16:08 <Serg[GPRS]> who wanna try Skype video chat ?
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08:55:38 <virl> would be nice, when I would have a webcam
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09:06:39 <Serg[GPRS]> we may try voice only, but video can put greater  test on trans-oceanic lines timeout
09:07:35 <virl> yes..
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14:16:52 <amca_at_cins> Morning
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14:21:05 <amca_at_cins> Morning
14:21:52 <slava> hi
14:22:26 <amca_at_cins> How are you today?
14:23:01 <TheBlueWizard> hiya
14:25:55 <amca_at_cins> Up to anything exciting today?
14:26:27 <TheBlueWizard> not at the moment...
14:26:52 * slava is writing docs
14:27:49 <amca_at_cins> slava: Um...you find writing docs exciting? :)
14:28:08 <amca_at_cins> TheBlueWizard: Up to anything incredibly boring?
14:28:10 <slava> yes
14:28:39 <amca_at_cins> slava: Okay. Not the answer I expected. :) What do you find exciting about it?
14:28:52 <TheBlueWizard> amca_at_cins: hehe...well, I'm currently reading Slashdot, and am waiting for my buddy to show up on the other channel
14:29:00 <amca_at_cins> I see 
14:29:17 <slava> amca_at_cins: factor has an online help system where you browse docs and code at once; working on docs give me a chance to review code, and re-organize it
14:29:26 <amca_at_cins> Been working on any projects of late?
14:29:54 <amca_at_cins> slava: Ah! Makes more sense to me then. :) I enjoy designing my coding projects, but not documenting them. :)
14:30:17 <amca_at_cins> slava: Still, I realise it needs to be done. If not for my own good, for others.
14:30:58 <slava> docs help me, too. if i can't explain what a word does in a concise way, then the word needs to be rewritten
14:31:04 <amca_at_cins> slava: So is it kinda like a java doc system? (perhaps a realtime, rather than batch one like java)
14:31:21 <TheBlueWizard> amca_at_cins: several mini projects in the pipeline, yeah...but I have a few biggies coming up that are not related to computer that must be dealt with
14:31:36 <amca_at_cins> TheBlueWizard: Do you mind me asking what they are?
14:31:50 <slava> amca_at_cins: similar, but the documentation is in separate files, not inline
14:32:54 <amca_at_cins> slava: I see. And are the docs and code hyperlinked or do you manually have to open the code file relating to the docs?
14:33:05 <slava> amca_at_cins: you can browse them in the gui
14:33:13 <TheBlueWizard> um...you're inquisitive! :)  anyway, I must clean up the apartment this week cuz the mgmt WANTS to bug spray everything! (half-sarcasm), and second, I'm preparing for my surgery later this month
14:33:19 <slava> the docs are not really nice to read in raw form
14:33:27 <amca_at_cins> slava: hehe
14:33:32 <slava> i'll paste an example if you don't mind 3 lines
14:33:40 <amca_at_cins> go for it
14:33:43 <slava> HELP: subseq? "( subseq seq -- ? )"
14:33:43 <slava> { $values { "subseq" "a sequence" } { "seq" "a sequence" } { "?" "a boolean" } }
14:33:43 <slava> { $description "Tests if " { $snippet "seq" } " contains the elements of " { $snippet "subseq" } " as a contiguous subsequence." } ;
14:34:03 <slava> the markup "language" is really just nested arrays holding strings and words. its like xml but without a parser
14:34:05 <amca_at_cins> TheBlueWizard: Ah, yeah. Im insanely curious. Please just let me know frankly if I ask a question you do not wish to answer.
14:34:31 <amca_at_cins> slava: Cause the markup is the parser?
14:34:45 <slava> amca_at_cins: there's only one parser
14:35:26 <amca_at_cins> TheBlueWizard: Is the operation too gory to go into
14:35:27 <amca_at_cins> ??
14:35:35 <amca_at_cins> slava: In the gui?
14:35:50 <slava> amca_at_cins: i meant the same parser reads code and help markup
14:36:00 <slava> amca_at_cins: factor has a standard forth style parser
14:36:03 <slava> with parsing words
14:36:04 <amca_at_cins> slava: Ah, I see
14:36:16 <slava> amca_at_cins: its very simple and flexible, i like it
14:37:01 <amca_at_cins> slava: Sounds good. Is it in the current release? If so Ill download it and try it when I get home today
14:37:02 <slava> amca_at_cins: the styled text rendering is very simple too.
14:37:06 <slava> amca_at_cins: no, its in cvs.
14:37:15 <amca_at_cins> doh
14:37:21 <amca_at_cins> Okay. Ill hjave to be patient then
14:37:27 <slava> amca_at_cins: you can look at a screenshot: http://factorcode.org/help-hashtables.png
14:37:32 <amca_at_cins> Let me know when it is released please. :)
14:37:37 <amca_at_cins> tnx
14:38:49 <amca_at_cins> slava: Cool. :D
14:39:10 <TheBlueWizard> amca_at_cins: well, it is a hernia operation, and I will not say anything more on that
14:39:25 * amca_at_cins nods
14:39:35 <amca_at_cins> TheBlueWizard: Okay. Good luck with it. :)
14:39:37 <slava> amca_at_cins: you were taking about type systems before
14:39:44 <amca_at_cins> Yesterday, yes
14:39:45 <slava> amca_at_cins: having one stack per type is not static typing...
14:39:50 <amca_at_cins> no?
14:39:53 <amca_at_cins> okay
14:39:55 <amca_at_cins> Why not?
14:39:59 <slava> static typing is when types are checked at compile time
14:40:26 <amca_at_cins> Which you cant do in Forth?
14:40:28 <slava> in factor, i can write : foo "hi" + ; and even though foo will give an error at runtime, the compiler doesn't notice
14:40:37 <slava> because its dynamically typed
14:40:58 <slava> in a statically typed language you'd get a compile error saying that + cannot be applied to strings, or something of the sort
14:41:54 <slava> there is a statically typed forth called strongForth
14:42:33 <amca_at_cins> So what typing is it called when you have to be explicit about what the types are with operations such as pushing integers or floats onto different stacks?
14:43:12 <slava> where you declare types, eg C?
14:43:16 <slava> that's called manifest typing
14:43:29 <slava> usually if your language has manifest typing, it has static typing, but not vice versa
14:43:42 <slava> for example, in the ML family, you don't declare types most of the time; they are inferred; but they are checked at compile time
14:44:33 <amca_at_cins> slava: Like in gforth where you have to explicitly say what the type is so the compiler-interpreter knows what stack to push it on? (eg plain numbers for integers and numbers with E in them for the float stack)
14:44:59 <amca_at_cins> slava: They are/can be inferred in Haskell too arent they?
14:45:25 <slava> well gforth doesn't have type checking at all
14:45:31 <slava> yes, haskell uses type inference
14:45:39 <sproingie> i thought manifest typing was that data was tagged with its type and carried it around
14:45:45 <slava> that's dynamic typing
14:46:57 <amca_at_cins> slava: But there is some sort of typing because you either have a word access the integer stack or the float stack (ignoring for the moment characters or using integers for other purposes like pointers)
14:47:18 <slava> any programming language has data types, but it might not have type checking
14:47:21 <sproingie> paul graham mentions manifest typing in ACL, and his usage is the one i used
14:47:30 <slava> you can write assembly code that makes use of linked lists
14:47:41 <sproingie> though the same document that mentions paul graham says others have used it in different senses
14:48:21 <amca_at_cins> slava: Isnt forcing the word to take from a particular type of data stack a form of type checking?
14:48:31 <sproingie> forth is definitely flat out untyped tho.  it has cells, everything else is explicit
14:49:29 <amca_at_cins> sproingie: What about FVMs with float stacks?
14:50:15 <slava> amca_at_cins: no, because nothing prevents you from moving pointers to the float stack, or taking a float and usign it like a pointer ,etc
14:50:31 <sproingie> amca_at_cins: it's still incumbent on the developer to explicitly state that some data is a float or not
14:50:47 <amca_at_cins> slava: But you can do that with C
14:51:04 <slava> because C's type system is not very strict
14:51:07 <sproingie> a float stack imposes a minor sort of type discipline, but it's not anything static
14:51:38 <amca_at_cins> slava: So is it incorrect to say that Forth has a ver weak typing system?
14:51:41 <sproingie> the typing comes from the different set of operators you use to access the data at all
14:51:48 <sproingie> amca_at_cins: it's safe to say it has none at all
14:51:54 <amca_at_cins> hmmmm
14:51:55 <slava> amca_at_cins: i guess
14:52:32 <sproingie> you can always write a type system on top of it, but when you can cast anything to anything, it's still basically untyped
14:52:49 <amca_at_cins> sproingie: Same in C
14:53:25 <sproingie> c is in some contexts untyped, but without explicit casts within a single scope, the compiler enforces typing
14:53:46 * sproingie misses a comma after "casts" there, but you get the idea
14:53:51 <amca_at_cins> I mean in an implementation where the floats are on the data stack, then sure, it is non typed, but where you have different stacks for different types where you have to explicitly convert a number between the stacks, then I think that to be some sort of typing system unless I am missing something.
14:54:02 <amca_at_cins> sproingie: /me nods
14:54:12 <sproingie> C is derived from BCPL, which is as typed as forth -- just cells
14:54:23 * amca_at_cins nods. 
14:54:33 <amca_at_cins> I remember reading that C replaced an untyped language
14:55:02 <slava> C's predecessor B was implemented with direct threading
14:55:05 <slava> similar to some forths
14:55:26 <amca_at_cins> interesting
14:55:27 <sproingie> like i said, different stacks is kinda-sorta like typing since it restricts the operations you can use, but it doesn't really become a type system
14:55:57 <amca_at_cins> sproingie: I dont see how, unless you say that C kinda sorta has typing as well
14:56:01 <sproingie> since you have neither static analysis nor dynamic discovery of types
14:56:04 <slava> that is correct
14:56:09 <slava> C's type system is very weak
14:56:27 <sproingie> C indeed has kinda sorta typing.  most compilers have to do a heroic job of static analysis to enforce it
14:56:39 <amca_at_cins> Both C and Forth seem to assume on the system level that all untyped numbers are ints
14:56:53 * amca_at_cins nods. 
14:57:06 <amca_at_cins> I believe we have come to some sort of agreement. :)
14:57:56 <amca_at_cins> Would being typeless be Forth's major flaw currently for application coding?
14:58:12 <slava> not everybody sees it as a flaw
14:58:14 <slava> i do
14:58:24 <amca_at_cins> sorry, gotta go
14:58:29 <amca_at_cins> Chat later
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14:59:08 <sproingie> typelessness is fine in a "safe" language.  when using direct memory access, it makes mistakes have "random" consequences, like asm
14:59:13 <sproingie> bah, he left
15:04:15 <slava> how can you have a safe language without types?
15:14:57 <sproingie> you could, it just wouldn't be very interesting
15:15:06 <sproingie> i guess i was thinking dynamic types
15:15:42 <sproingie> unlambda has no types tho :)
15:15:46 <sproingie> or well, one type
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16:38:29 <TheBlueWizard> well, gotta go...bye!
16:38:46 <slava> hi nballen 
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17:02:28 <nballen> hey, slava
17:02:33 <nballen> are you working on anything cool?
17:02:36 <nballen> :)
17:15:54 <virl> what is cool?
17:16:27 <JasonWoof> forth is cool
17:16:34 <slava> the snow outside is cool, or indeed cold
17:16:54 <slava> last new years' it was raining, but now its -13
17:20:02 <JasonWoof> snow here too
17:20:12 <JasonWoof> not -13 though. got a little melty today
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17:21:28 <amca> Hello again
17:23:58 <nballen> hello amca
17:24:42 <amca> How are you nballen?
17:25:10 <nballen> recovering from new years
17:25:11 <nballen> ;)
17:25:25 <amca> hehe
17:25:28 <amca> Had a good one?
17:26:40 <nballen> yes, although I'm glad it only happens once a year
17:26:52 <amca> lol
17:44:16 <JasonWoof> maybe this is a bad time to mention this...
17:44:57 <amca> oh?
17:46:29 <JasonWoof> but I learned recently that the earth's rotation is slowing down slightly, adding about 15 microsecconds to the length of a day every year
17:46:38 <JasonWoof> suppose that doesn't make years any longer though. nm
17:47:02 <Raystm2> We added a leep second this year.
17:47:18 <JasonWoof> and it definitely doesn't explain how my alarm clock is off by an hour exactly
17:47:44 <JasonWoof> both the time and the alarm time are ahead an hour as of this morning
17:47:53 <amca> JasonWoof: Doesnt that mean due to conservation of rotational momentum that the earth is orbiting the sun faster? Meaning more new years more often?
17:48:02 <JasonWoof> maybe I whacked the snooze too hard
17:48:17 <JasonWoof> amca: no, it speeds up the moon
17:48:49 <amca> that doesnt sound right
17:48:59 <Raystm2> And the faster the moon leaves our orbit, the slower we spin.
17:49:15 <Raystm2> The moon used to be much closer.
17:49:21 * amca nods
17:49:41 <amca> But the same effect between the mooin and the Earth is happening on the earth and the sun isnt it?
17:49:47 <JasonWoof> there's some controversy about it, but here's a writup that makes some sense with diagrams: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon
17:50:07 <amca> thanks
17:50:10 <JasonWoof> there's probably some similar effect with the sun. but probably waaay less noticeable
17:50:15 * amca nods
17:51:02 <amca> especially since it is tidal friction slowing the earth and moon, and the sun is fluids
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17:55:07 <nballen> what is UM* ?
17:56:04 <amca> an alternative version of ER* (j/k)
17:56:21 <amca> unsigned multiply of some sort?
17:57:38 <nballen> http://paste.lisp.org/display/15271
18:01:04 <amca> nballen: Mixed precision multiple
18:01:18 <amca> mixed precision unsigned multiply
18:01:38 <amca> takes two single precision numbers and returns a double answer
18:01:51 <amca> All unsigned of course
18:03:04 <nballen> oh cool, thanks
18:03:13 <nballen> I couldn't figure out what it as doing
18:03:22 <amca> :)
18:03:36 <amca> what Forth you coding in?
18:03:46 <nballen> gforth
18:03:50 <nballen> and I wouldn't call it coding
18:03:51 <nballen> :)
18:04:07 <amca> hehe
18:04:16 <amca> well I looked up what it was in the gforth manual
18:04:30 <amca> Do you know how to use info?
18:06:01 <nballen> what do you mean by info?
18:06:15 <nballen> ok I found the word list in the gforth manual
18:06:23 <nballen> *bookmarking*
18:07:14 <amca> you can download the html version at http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/gforth/gforth-html-0.6.2.zip
18:07:26 <amca> info is a hypertext help system
18:07:31 <amca> pre html I think
18:07:59 <amca> Yeah, I usually look up the Word index first, and then try the Concepts Index.
18:08:32 <nballen> cool
18:08:42 <nballen> seems like a good reference
18:09:31 <amca> :) Yep. Use it frequently. And if those two dont give me enough info, I look it up in DPANS
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