00:00:00 --- log: started forth/05.12.26 00:16:07 --- quit: amca_at_cins (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 00:43:09 hello everyone 00:43:54 Morning. 00:44:35 it's 12:44am here 00:44:40 but good morning to you 00:44:42 :) 00:47:24 That's what happens when you turn over the world to atheists - they declare the earth round and introduce time zones! 00:50:27 oh, it has nothing to do with time zones--I'm a member of a strange doctrine-thumping fundamentalist religion that firmly, zealously believes that all minutes of the day fall between 11:55pm and 1:17am 00:51:35 Is the religion called Forth, and is that limitation due to the refusal to use more than 8 bits to store time information? 00:58:47 lol, no I cannot name my religion over IRC... I can tell you that we believe that by limiting our 'day' to 1 hour and 22 minutes, we reduce the complexity of time calculation, thus allowing large numbers of mentally retarded, easily replaceable transient slave laborers to manage our complex lunchbreak system without thinking too hard 00:59:33 we have many types of breaks 00:59:46 we have a strongly typed break system 01:03:36 Strongly typed, eh? You should be careful about what you say in #forth. 01:06:38 oh I wouldn't *cackle* 01:07:08 as we'll soon be replacing forth with a dialect of factor implemented in java that only runs on windows 01:08:20 eh, crazy religions? 01:13:01 nballen: Noooo! 01:13:20 virl: Yes. All religions (except mine) are obviously crazy. 01:14:14 lol, seriously though I'm reading 'Comparing Factor to Other Languages' and I don't see the point... 01:15:05 why it should be so much better? hell, that point I'm also don't seeing. 01:15:31 Robert, and that's the reason for religion wars 01:16:08 I thought the reason for religious wars is that not everyone believes what I say? 01:16:14 * amca_ is back (gone 01:19:48) 01:16:23 virl: my religion is the true religion. Although... it is my religion to be tolerant of Robert's religion, just because he's only going to go to hell in the end anyways and my religion is full of nice people 01:16:32 jk 01:16:32 :D 01:17:13 Never used Factor myself. 01:18:47 Right now I'm trying to write some memory managment code for the C64. 01:19:08 And then implement a multiprecision library on top of that. 01:19:26 And then... a Forth(ish) compiler! 01:19:29 whoho.. 01:19:38 hehe 01:19:40 cool 01:19:41 and everything is fine 01:19:48 the commodore 64? 01:20:19 Yep. 01:20:27 cool 01:20:56 I'm trying to make RSA fast enough to be useable. 01:20:59 so nballen which feelings do you have about factor? 01:21:13 I'm implementing a stack-based abstraction in common lisp and am trying to learn as much as I can about concatenate languages 01:21:24 I'm working my way through simple forth and I really like it 01:21:58 (otherwise I wouldn't be hanging out in its irc channel) 01:22:30 I am using gforth 01:22:40 oh wait 01:22:49 sorry I thought you said forth 01:22:50 ;) 01:24:45 about factor: like I said I don't see the point. It doesn't seem to solve any problems (then again I haven't actually installed it, or joy, so I'm probably not qualified to judge) 01:26:30 but from experience with common lisp and scheme and a little python and forth I don't see any reason to muddle them together other than an exercise in language design... 01:27:17 ehm, so rubby doesn't have also any sense to you? 01:27:26 ruby 01:28:06 *eyeshift* 01:28:12 should I keep my mouth shut? 01:28:15 ;) 01:28:26 no.. I don't use ruby 01:29:27 I'm a lisp bigot, of course I don't like ruby 01:29:33 so to speak 01:29:34 but I'm only interested in your position of 'doesn't solve any problems' 01:29:49 ok let me qualify that statement 01:30:05 ror is a tool 01:30:11 it solves a problem 01:30:42 using ruby could be justified on non-linguistic grounds 01:30:45 I don't know ror 01:30:50 ruby-on-rails 01:30:57 ah.. 01:31:00 ok 01:31:47 maybe lots of data structures and safe arrays and stuff do have a practical use 01:31:51 in factor 01:31:53 I don't know 01:37:51 he (slava) wrote a raytracer with it, so probably it solves a problem in that context, you defined. 01:38:57 Â¨The Magellan probe's radar pictures of Venus passed through a data-block handler that I designed. It was controlled by a Forth program running on a Z-80. I wrote its operating system and, in about two weeks, taught a hardware engineer enough Forth to write its 2000-line program. We used a PC running a Forth program for the system tests. Whenever the customer dreamed up new tests, it was a matter of minutes to incorporate them into the p 01:38:58 rogram.Â¨ 01:40:19 virl: I'm not qualified to judge, I'm sure your right 01:43:42 personally I dislike it, I'm pretty sure that todays OOP approach is something which is only halfbaked and should be taken back to research. 01:48:58 which problem does OOP tries to solve? 01:50:32 --- nick: amca_ -> amca_at_cins 01:52:37 data encapsulation? function dependencies? data hiding? interaction? documentation loss? complexity? I must really say that I couldn't say 'yes it solves so much problems!' 01:53:28 it leads to complexity and why? because much people find it so 'cool' and don't use it right. 01:53:43 virl: The main problem is code duplication via inheritance, I thought was what OOP tries to solve. 01:53:56 how about enforcing an organized structure, enhancing modularity, abstraction scaffolding... using generic functions instead of funcitons 01:54:04 oops was still typing 01:54:58 sry, but I think it solves lesser problems than it creates 01:55:13 --- join: Cheery (i=Henri@a81-197-18-99.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #forth 01:55:41 it forces programmers to adhere to an abstraction. like amca_ said class inheritance supposedly lessons code duplication, generic functions enable code to be extended by defining new methods 01:56:41 lessers code duplication? I think it creates code duplication 01:57:23 I'm not a fan of oop either. imho a good language look at for examples of oop doing what its supposed to is Dylan 01:57:28 though 01:57:46 and then most OOP syntaxes don't make it easy to use it, they complicate it to use OOP 01:58:33 dylan, dylan, somewhere in my mind there is something about it, but I can't remember ;-) 01:59:06 virl: Java uses complicated OOP syntax? 01:59:21 like I said, imho give it a look to see another side of oop 01:59:38 or if you know any lisp keene's Object Oriented Programming in Common Lisp 02:00:36 System.out.println("Hello World; that shows why java is a mess"); 02:00:58 but that one is only harmless 02:01:31 ok, syntax wrong word, ehm, class tree could be the right one. 02:03:14 virl: How does it show that Java is a mess? Verbose, perhaps, but it looks pretty clear to me./ 02:03:52 it's uncomfortable to use, for me. 02:04:26 In its verbosity? 02:04:28 why should I type the whole class tree only to print a line? 02:04:50 sry, but that shows me that it's a mess. 02:08:03 There is a way to use just the classname, not the whole class path. 02:11:16 probably... 02:11:30 whatever I don't like it. 02:12:24 * amca_at_cins nods 02:13:23 I think that there needs to be a simpler way to achieve the same what todays OOP tries todo. 02:14:17 and if only that means to write a bunch of documents to declare that simple functions which aren't often used needs to be ontop. 02:14:25 of the class hierarchy. 02:15:01 virl: What about aliases? 02:15:43 Like have it a feature of the language that you can refer to an object with an alias instead of typing in the class tree? 02:15:50 aliases? so for example: System.out.println() = println? or what? 02:16:18 and how do you want to do that? at runtime? 02:17:25 probably compiletime 02:17:55 more like function println = System.out.println 02:18:32 that is only a macro, but that is one thing java things it doesn't need. 02:18:41 thinks 02:20:46 macros are something which are essential to programming languages. 02:21:38 Why is that? :) 02:22:10 Surely function definitions can replace macros? 02:25:13 a macro marks a specific part of code that is executed at compiletime and not at runtime, function definitions don't. first they syntax gets there messy and not easily understandable and second when it's not understandable then unreadable code follows. 02:26:27 a function is also something which hasn't anything todo with a macro 02:26:42 What about inline functions in C++? 02:27:35 wtf? 02:27:52 inline functions don't get executed at compile time 02:28:43 the 'inline' only shows the compiler that the function doesn't get replaced with a jump in the machinecode. 02:32:56 so what do you want to show me? 02:34:04 Me? 02:35:09 yes, you :) 02:35:41 I didnt want to show you anything did I? I was just trying to find out your point of view. 02:50:29 ok.. 02:57:19 --- quit: nballen () 03:16:00 --- quit: amca_at_cins ("night") 03:18:26 --- join: swalters_ (n=swalters@6532183hfc82.tampabay.res.rr.com) joined #forth 04:29:17 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pete@0-1pool64-174.nas22.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 05:19:23 --- join: ramkrsna (n=ramkrsna@202-149-56-110.exatt.net) joined #forth 06:37:04 good morning 06:37:11 howdy 06:37:19 Morning. 06:41:55 --- join: tathi (n=josh@pdpc/supporter/bronze/tathi) joined #forth 06:51:09 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 06:51:17 --- join: tathi (n=josh@pdpc/supporter/bronze/tathi) joined #forth 07:51:27 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 07:53:02 --- join: imaginator (n=George@georgeps.dsl.xmission.com) joined #forth 07:56:10 Hi. 07:57:40 hi 07:58:35 man, I am sooo tired of fighting alone. 08:05:04 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@adsl-69-155-177-154.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net) joined #forth 08:05:17 Hi, snowrichard. 08:05:33 hi 08:05:40 just waking up 08:07:16 * Robert has been waking up very early lately. 08:07:31 it's the goddamned season/weather 08:10:16 the sun is at the right angle to blind me right now. 08:10:30 I've been up too long and want a nap 08:11:09 Not much sun here these days. 08:11:19 And when there is, it's usually too low to reach me. 08:11:35 I got up at oh-dark-hundred, and it still looks ugly 08:20:17 --- quit: snowrichard ("Leaving") 08:21:54 are there any forth systems that by default defer all words? (I know it would be slower. I'm curious if any exist) 08:22:29 Yes, that's what indirect threading is about. 08:22:56 err 08:23:03 not exactly, but really close 08:23:36 a "defer" is like 1 notch worse 08:23:36 In practice you get the same effect - being able to replace code runtime. 08:23:45 yep 08:23:50 I guess that's what you want, imaginator? 08:23:59 something like that :) 08:24:43 I'm getting close to needing my forthish variant *sigh* 08:24:49 I was thinking about trying to write a forth that does lookup for every word, and dictionary entries would just be strings. I would use a splay tree to improve performance of word lookup 08:25:17 splay is not great, although she's cute 08:25:53 skiplists are another that looks really great, but... 08:26:32 I'd almost recommend using ndbm and seeing where it leads you. 08:26:33 is there a better data structure that would allow for sorting by retrieving, so that the most used items are near the beginning of the tree? 08:26:40 ndbm? 08:26:52 posix db header/code 08:27:03 you NEVER want to sort on retrieve 08:27:25 ..sort on insert, then contexts and retrieves are faster 08:27:51 but, in a loop for instance I would want ot sort on retrieve 08:28:01 not on my machine 08:28:06 that's why I thought a splay would improve performance for this kind of usage. 08:29:16 --- join: JasonWoof (n=jason@pdpc/supporter/student/Herkamire) joined #forth 08:29:17 --- mode: ChanServ set +o JasonWoof 08:30:02 PoppaVic: why is it slower? 08:35:59 --- quit: PoppaVic (Nick collision from services.) 08:36:19 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pete@0-1pool66-236.nas22.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 08:36:24 the only time I can envision "sort on retrieve" is something like a priority-queue 08:36:26 ..when you want a retrieve/run, you want to run balls-to-the-wall 08:36:30 if, during a run, you need retrieval: again, you'd LIKE to be fast and clean - but might suffer cascading lookup that itself was already sort 08:36:33 An example would be a word that parses a word: the former might manage an internal wordlist... Would you want to re-sort at every retrieval?? 08:36:41 (sorry about isp chop) 08:39:40 imaginator: When would a word be looked up - every time it's executed? 08:40:09 I *think* he's considering something like pcode - just... Badly. 08:40:16 Robert: yes 08:41:41 PoppaVic: the splay tree would only resort if the root of the tree isn't the item to retrieve. the most commonly used nodes of the tree are closest to the root, so the sorting and performance would mainly be thrown off by the lesser used words 08:41:43 imaginator: Ouch. :) Why not just work with pointers to strings (with pre-computed hash values attached)? 08:43:21 Robert: that would work, but I was also curious about trying to make a Forth where "everything is a string" like Tcl 08:44:30 Never used tcl. Any reason why you want this? 08:47:10 well, I wrote a little forth that used execution tokens, and threaded code, but I have never been satisfied with it. I started writing it again in gas assembly code, but it felt like a dead end. So, I thought I'd try this because it seems simpler and different :) 08:47:51 (my first version was C with some asm and machine code generation) 08:48:59 You could always limit yourself to one-character strings for fast lookup! 08:49:41 haha 08:52:10 OK, stop early - I was detained with plumbing issues 08:52:45 Yer target is a lookup/doodle "forthish", right? 08:53:26 I would suggest the POSIX-supported ndbm.h database. 08:53:46 I've already written my INI tool using it, and it's fine. 08:53:47 what data structure(s) does ndbm use? 08:54:08 INI tool? 08:54:17 datum { size_t dsize; char *dptr; } 08:54:50 imaginator: I'm working on a project that's bugged me for decades, and keep backing down and more and more internal. 08:54:59 imaginator: See this as an opportunity to learn Chinese. 08:55:14 (...when you run out of English one-letter word names) 08:55:15 * PoppaVic snorts - chinese? Not. 08:55:29 oh: the code is that ugly? 08:56:26 Happy days: the shower works again. Soaking the head in CLR right now. 08:57:01 * imaginator feels mocked, and probably rightly so :) 08:58:37 Nah. I just have a mental disorder prohibiting me from ever being serious. 08:59:20 imaginator: not really. I'd love a portable super-forth/c-interface: it's what I'm beating 09:00:36 But, anyway... Yer talking about a database of key/value: where the key is vocs/wordlists..word and referencing whatever THAT holds. 09:01:08 ..trust me, I've glared at this for decades and have all the blood and wounds to prove it. 09:01:30 That sounds sort of painful. 09:01:53 yes, it nearly makes you want to suicide or take up underwater-basket-weaving. 09:02:55 I find "wordlists" interesting, and stuffing them under "vocabularies" even more so. 09:03:52 I've got the INI files working fine. Now, I'm cogitating the wrappers to make it "programmable" (as it were) 09:04:27 Anyone sends me an email and query about "Metabuilder", I'll shoot back the tarball. 09:06:56 Basically, I decided that INI formats were pretty-much as simple-minded as possible, and still "semi-organized". So, supporting it I have a "lib" and then folks can postprocess what we saw - in a database. 09:08:43 However, I've also seen html (and other) forms that also offer some intriguing capabilities, so: I'm open to ideas/suggestions. 09:09:27 HOWEVER, the database is settled. There is no way I can hope for better than posix-portable. 09:15:52 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@adsl-69-155-177-154.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net) joined #forth 09:32:00 --- quit: PoppaVic ("Pulls the pin...") 09:41:22 --- quit: snowrichard ("Leaving") 09:52:34 --- join: nballen (n=nballen@adsl-69-111-248-132.dsl.renocs.pacbell.net) joined #forth 10:39:53 --- quit: swalters_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 11:13:10 --- quit: nballen () 11:35:40 --- join: snoopy_1711 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-166-010.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 11:41:13 --- quit: saon (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 11:43:18 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 11:43:27 --- nick: snoopy_1711 -> Snoopy42 13:43:30 --- quit: Cheery ("Leaving") 13:54:44 --- join: asymptote (n=weldon@pool-68-239-96-63.res.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 14:12:16 --- quit: asymptote ("Leaving") 14:14:52 --- join: Topaz (n=top@spc1-horn1-6-0-cust128.cosh.broadband.ntl.com) joined #forth 14:21:54 --- join: swalters (n=swalters@6532183hfc82.tampabay.res.rr.com) joined #forth 14:59:46 --- quit: swalters (Connection timed out) 15:06:03 --- join: swalters (n=swalters@6532183hfc82.tampabay.res.rr.com) joined #forth 15:10:31 --- quit: swalters (Client Quit) 15:11:10 --- join: swalters (n=swalters@6532183hfc82.tampabay.res.rr.com) joined #forth 15:29:58 --- quit: swalters (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 15:30:13 --- join: swalters_ (n=swalters@6532183hfc82.tampabay.res.rr.com) joined #forth 16:13:12 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@adsl-69-155-177-154.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net) joined #forth 16:25:31 --- quit: snowrichard ("Leaving") 16:52:47 --- quit: Topaz (Remote closed the connection) 17:02:28 --- quit: swalters_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 17:03:15 --- join: swalters_ (n=swalters@6532183hfc82.tampabay.res.rr.com) joined #forth 17:41:13 --- join: amca_at_cins (i=amca@rdlax12-a146.dialup.optusnet.com.au) joined #forth 17:49:50 --- join: TheBlueWizard (i=TheBlueW@ts001d0994.wdc-dc.xod.concentric.net) joined #forth 17:57:01 * amca_at_cins is away: I'm busy 18:01:50 * crc is busy trying to debug the hdd driver in retroforth/native 18:02:39 * amca_at_cins is back (gone 00:05:38) 18:03:04 ///crc: How is it going? 18:03:12 slowly 18:03:31 what is going wrong? 18:03:47 the hdd driver fails after writing two blocks to disk 18:04:51 damn :/ 18:05:03 Any idea what could be wrong? 18:06:03 the setting for the heads or sectors-per-track could be off 18:06:08 or it could be a timing problem 18:07:34 it works under qemu but not for z-z, who's testing it on real hardware 18:07:44 damn 18:08:38 I just added some slight delays between loading each block; that might help (I'll know in a couple of minutes) 18:09:01 cool. 18:09:33 At least it isnt like in the old days - you write a program on punch cards and have to wait 24 hours for a response. :) 18:16:50 yeah 18:19:07 How common is it to implement stacks as a ADT in Forth? 18:19:18 hehe...punch cards....ah, that throws me back into my early college days where I deftly dropped a fat stack of cards atop the cards which were *already* being read into...if I screw it up, I get angry responses :) 18:19:30 an ADT? 18:19:39 Sorry. Abstract Data Type 18:20:13 TheBlueWizard: Ever put the cards in the wrong way, or was it impossible? 18:20:51 forth is generally typeless 18:21:16 * amca_at_cins nods 18:21:46 I have implemented additional stacks which can be passed between words using the data stack 18:21:52 I know others have as well 18:22:00 But you could create words to manipulate structures in memory like look up tables or stacks etc 18:22:11 yeah 18:24:30 amca_at_cins: not that....the existing cards in the card queue had to be sufficiently "deep" enough so that when I push up the card pusher thingey (the little spring-loaded gadget that keeps the cards pressed down all the way), the card reader would continue reading the cards as if nothing happened. If I misjudge the pressure, the card reader would jam and the poor student who is executing the program lose his program and woul 18:25:01 it can be tricky :) 18:25:32 Ouch! 18:25:46 the addition of delays worked :) 18:25:53 W00t! 18:25:55 :) 18:26:24 TheBlueWizard: Silly me thought of it as a stack, not a queue - been playing with Forth too much lately ;) 18:26:58 amca_at_cins: yup...ouch is the word to use it. But, "pipelining" the cards saves me maybe 10 minutes 18:27:13 Ah 18:27:28 Does the first card reset the machine to a known state 18:27:29 ? 18:27:36 and I then wait an hour or two for the printout :) 18:28:55 TheBlueWizard: What machines were you coding for? 18:29:04 well, if the card reader finishes reading all the card, it will kinda shut down, and then when a new batch is supplied, it will have to start up, which is a bit aggravating (not much, but...) 18:29:11 IBM S/370 18:29:43 Was that the sequel to the 360? 18:29:48 yes 18:30:45 Do you remember how it was improved? Did 360s run on VMS? Or am I getting my computer history mixed up? 18:30:58 OS/360 I thought 18:32:23 I was a student...and I never work with S/360. VMS is a DEC thing, not IBM 18:33:06 there were several OSes for S/3x0...I don't really remember what were what :) 18:33:15 Ah, so VMS ran on PDPs? 18:33:22 yeah 18:33:28 back then, these are pretty much gibberish ;) 18:33:30 Do you remember what OS ran on your s/370? 18:33:53 S/360 software can still be run on the latest zSeries z9 systems from IBM :) 18:34:15 VAX/VMS. I don't think VMS ever run on a PDP 18:34:24 ahh, right 18:36:00 --- join: saon (i=1000@unaffiliated/saon) joined #forth 18:36:04 O_O Impressive backwards compatibility 18:36:56 * TheBlueWizard also remembers occasionally soliciting several students to stack up the cards together before feeding toe card reader...to expedite everyone's time :) 18:38:23 Toe card reader? 18:38:32 I wouldn't be surprised at good backward compatibility...the big iron were nose bleedingly expensive, and so the damn programs better run on the newer irons...or the buyers would scream bloody murder for sure :) 18:38:51 * TheBlueWizard laughs re: the typo 18:39:00 s/toe/the/ 18:39:45 ah.hehe. I thought you were talking about something I hadnt heard about >.> 18:40:14 --- quit: virl ("Verlassend") 18:40:34 * TheBlueWizard decides to patent the toe card reader :) 18:41:17 hehe 18:41:35 Thats gotta hurt putting yer toes into the card puncher 18:42:17 nah...that's just a little footwork ;) 18:42:27 lol 18:46:18 hehe, came across this appropriately: "...to write a Forth interpreter for IBM 370..." 18:46:20 while googling 18:47:33 crc: Did i mention that in your docs you refer to red as a line editor, when technically out of the possible editors (stream, block, line, screen) it is technically a block editor? 18:49:57 it is a line based editor operating on a block of 8 lines, 64 chars per line 18:50:51 Ah. It was my understanding that a line is defined as a number of characters terminated by an EOL 18:51:14 depends on the definition of line 18:51:43 in a block editor, I define line as being a sequence of 64 characters 18:52:08 in a text file, it ends with EOL (whatever EOL is on the specific platform) 18:52:15 * amca_at_cins nods 18:52:25 I would agree with those two definitions 18:54:42 * crc is happy; he made a lot of progress on retroforth 8.3 and the new server today 18:55:43 Sweet :) 18:55:57 What did you do as well as the HDD driver? 18:56:46 I finished setting up the darcs repositories for the hosted and native versions, setup automatic generation of changelogs, a few small cleanups 18:57:38 ny next quest is to clean up the bootstrap modules; then expand the Rx Handbook into the RetroForth Handbook 18:57:50 cool 18:58:09 then I can release 8.3 :) 18:58:15 :) 18:58:23 With updated handbook? 18:58:28 yes 18:58:42 I finished updating the introductory tutorial today as well 18:59:51 cool :) 18:59:56 http://rf.fcode.org/doc/tutorial/ 19:02:08 * amca_at_cins looks 19:08:26 Which way of indicating a space in Forth words is more common: . or - ? (e.g. do.thing or do-thing) 19:09:01 - seems to be more common in my experience 19:09:27 tnx 19:14:02 --- log: started forth/05.12.26 19:14:02 --- join: clog_ (n=nef@bespin.org) joined #forth 19:14:02 --- topic: 'Welcome to #forth. We discuss the Forth programming language, simplicity, and a variety of technical subjects. The rules are simple: don't spam, don't troll, and please speak English.' 19:14:02 --- topic: set by SunDragon on [Sat Dec 10 07:19:28 2005] 19:14:02 --- names: list (clog_ saon TheBlueWizard amca_at_cins swalters_ Snoopy42 @JasonWoof imaginator ramkrsna Robert SunDragon ccfg madgarden _james humulus crc skylan Raystm2 Jim7J1AJH Ray_work clog ianp warpzero OrngeTide) 19:17:58 Is there a naming convention for "private" words? In C it is a single/double underscore. 19:18:16 (word) 19:18:21 enclosed in parenthesis 19:18:41 Ah. I thought that was meant for immediate versions of words 19:18:53 [word] for immediate I think 19:19:11 Ah. I see. Thanks :) 19:19:13 * crc doesn't follow the normal conventions 19:19:15 np 19:19:43 I know :) 19:19:52 Which ius why I asked after looking at your tute :) 19:20:14 :) 19:21:20 um...I think (word) is traditionally used to denote standard target word 19:21:26 rather than private 19:22:45 standard target word? 19:23:02 TheBlueWizard: Any idea what is used to denote private? 19:23:34 e.g. in one implementation, EMIT is a vector word that is set to point to (EMIT) 19:24:17 Ah, I see 19:24:18 According to Anton Ertl parenthesized names are traditionally used to indicate words that are just used as helper words 19:24:59 Forth is traditionally a "wide open" language -- in other words, nothing is hidden. So I don't know of any usual convention of denoting a private word. 19:25:13 hmmm 19:25:20 crc: hmm...interesting 19:25:59 one implementation that I saw uses upper case words for normal words and lower case ones for private ones 19:26:15 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.forth/browse_frm/thread/b4d70638c439b572/1ae8a114c0fe8780 contains the thread where he mentioned that 19:26:40 From what I have seen, upper case words are those defined in other files, and lower case ones are defined in that particular file >.> 19:26:41 * crc tends to hide private words in a separate vocabulary or using the loc: ... ;loc construct in retroforth 19:27:42 * amca_at_cins hasnt played with wordlists enough to be comfortable with them 19:28:18 my vocabuaries are likely quite different from normal wordlists 19:29:03 ah 19:29:41 --- quit: clog (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 19:29:41 --- nick: clog_ -> clog 19:30:17 --- join: Pragger|SIGSTOP (n=mhughes@c-24-16-217-242.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) joined #forth 20:19:21 Know of any conventions for altering words that have meanings so thatyou dont conflict? e.g. I want to add 'swap' to my words, but dont want to conflict with Forth 'swap' 20:20:52 you usually would have to come up with a new name...like, f-swap 20:21:17 or put a new name in a separate vocabulary 20:21:24 * amca_at_cins nods 20:21:29 tnx 20:31:06 --- join: amca_ (n=amca@rdlax9-073.dialup.optusnet.com.au) joined #forth 20:36:57 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth 20:50:36 --- quit: amca_at_cins (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 20:50:57 --- quit: amca_ ("fun") 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/05.12.26