00:00:00 --- log: started forth/05.12.25 00:06:21 --- join: virl (i=core@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at) joined #forth 01:25:44 --- join: Cheery (i=Henri@a81-197-18-99.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #forth 01:27:35 Hi. 01:55:07 Hi 01:55:12 merry christmass 01:55:51 And a happy new year 01:57:04 Robert, do you know where I could get some knowledge about databases? 01:57:23 What kind of databases? 01:57:44 file system databases. 01:57:57 things which contain metadata for the data itself. 01:58:25 Haven't worked much with that, really. Only (very little) with SQL. 01:59:14 Oh well. I were thinking about some kind of language too which it'd use to user access devices and tools. 01:59:46 something much like SQL 02:00:05 The main questions are: should I use fixed relational database tables? 02:00:19 What are you going to use the database for? 02:00:54 It'll allows user to access/find files and computer devices from system. 02:01:31 There won't be any tree structures. 02:02:30 Hm, are you sure a simple hash table isn't enough? 02:02:41 btw, do you speak Swedish well? Your English is a bit hard to understand. 02:03:00 my swedish is worse than english. :) 02:03:15 Oh, OK. 02:03:22 * Robert doesn't speak any Finnish :/ 02:04:33 Simple hash table? 02:05:14 I still don't really know what you're doing or why. 02:05:23 Are you going to use this in your program? 02:05:42 I'm designing operating system from bottom. 02:05:52 just one very experimental. 02:06:06 Ah, OK. 02:06:23 Using a database rather than a tree? 02:06:30 yes. 02:06:54 Why? 02:07:19 I think if it would be better than tree. 02:07:42 Better as in faster, or easier to use? 02:07:51 easier to use. 02:08:30 Will you have anything like directories, or will all files be in a single namespace? 02:08:35 I'm trying to design it so, that the fs would be easy to change if it is not enough. 02:08:41 single namespace. 02:09:32 It'll collect it from fixed storage devices, then appends with devices it finds from the system 02:09:59 OK, I think I would use a hash table for that. 02:10:17 To look up the inode (or whatever storage scheme you will use) from a file name. 02:13:20 But more I'm thinking if I would use dynamic or fixed tables. 02:13:49 fixed tables could be easier to handle, but I would need to design them very carefully. 02:14:43 But otherwise, since executables doesn't access files/devices with this scheme, it won't be so bad if I design it wrong on first try. 02:18:56 Or wait 02:19:13 there's a simple database in library too, and it seems to work well, isn't it? 02:19:31 Which language/ 02:19:54 what do you mean? 02:20:11 Like which computer language? 02:20:24 or which human language and further explain? 02:21:52 Yes, computer language 02:22:49 I think I'll design my own, using clisp, forth, factor, scheme, ruby and python as my reference points. 02:23:00 I think It'll be something lot like forth is. 02:23:29 It needs to be low level, but in extendable to higher level systems. 02:23:45 I think forth is lot like this. 02:24:30 Yeah.. I'm working with a project of my own similar to this, but it's for C64. 02:24:45 But I will use a tree-based file system. 02:25:35 should database records be same size? 02:26:05 or wait, I can make them same size :) 02:28:07 That is probably good unless you want extremely long file names. 02:28:58 well, I were thinking this kind of file record: http://rafb.net/paste/results/uIAXGc91.html 02:29:51 Yes. 02:29:57 That looks OK. 02:30:11 I gues that's lot an optimization what it'll be look later, but wouldn't this be a good start? 02:30:33 Anyway, I only need to care what the user sees. 02:30:34 :) 02:31:12 I'll put it so that every class is associated to a driver, which allows user to see everything as a object. 02:32:43 like, you want to get some pictures from awesome work christmass party, you just write: "xmas party 2005" user-field select show-all 02:32:57 or such. 02:33:42 then the system finds approiate driver for the class, ex. JPG, and uses that to represent it as an object. 02:34:14 then user can push it into image manipulation software, view it, or throw it for their friends. 02:37:17 so my database will be bigger than just file records, but I'll think it later. 02:37:55 But wait. I feel this is not yet completely right. 02:38:37 What if keyboard or game controller should be explained same way? 02:53:33 You could add additional flags for that. 03:02:29 --- quit: nballen () 03:04:40 I think I could yet separate it little 03:38:21 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pete@0-1pool65-7.nas22.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 05:10:57 --- quit: swalters_ (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 05:10:57 --- quit: madwork (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 05:19:04 --- join: swalters_ (n=swalters@6532183hfc82.tampabay.res.rr.com) joined #forth 05:19:04 --- join: madwork (n=foo@derby.metrics.com) joined #forth 05:19:14 --- quit: swalters_ (Read error: 105 (No buffer space available)) 05:20:15 --- join: swalters_ (n=swalters@6532183hfc82.tampabay.res.rr.com) joined #forth 05:23:36 --- quit: PoppaVic (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 05:24:02 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pete@0-1pool65-7.nas22.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 05:28:17 --- quit: madwork (Read error: 105 (No buffer space available)) 06:07:33 --- quit: PoppaVic ("Pulls the pin...") 06:09:13 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pete@0-1pool75-171.nas24.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 07:51:43 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@adsl-69-155-177-154.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net) joined #forth 08:03:57 --- quit: snowrichard ("Leaving") 08:42:38 --- quit: PoppaVic ("Pulls the pin...") 10:13:30 --- quit: Cheery ("Leaving") 10:23:06 Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, Happy Kwanzaa, and Happy Forth. There, all the majors are covered. 10:23:40 Happy Forth, Ray! 10:24:20 --- join: Cheery (i=Henri@a81-197-18-99.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #forth 10:24:23 A most Happy Forth to you as well, Robert. 10:24:38 I hope you got the progy you wanted. :) 10:24:49 oh, geez usa... I had xmas yesterday. 10:25:02 Happy Forth virl! 10:25:22 Happy Forth to everybody 10:26:16 May the one true interpreter/compiler work kindly apon your code. 10:26:21 happy forth to all! 10:26:40 Raystm2: what is the one true interpreter/compiler? :) 10:27:21 Merry Forth, crc! and Happy Retroforth RX. 10:28:00 the one true interpreter/compiler is the simplest one you can devise that runs anything that is humanly possible to cogitate. 10:29:06 so not only forth... 10:29:52 I think the concept might be forth, no matter the language. 10:30:32 Like, once you see forth, you'll write forth in any other language, say C. 10:31:25 modules? and a lot of incrementally depending functions? 11:35:15 --- join: snoopy_1711 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-183-178.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 11:43:30 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 11:43:35 --- nick: snoopy_1711 -> Snoopy42 12:44:16 --- join: nballen (n=nballen@adsl-69-111-248-132.dsl.renocs.pacbell.net) joined #forth 13:56:43 --- quit: nballen () 14:36:13 --- join: TheBlueWizard (i=TheBlueW@ts001d0669.wdc-dc.xod.concentric.net) joined #forth 15:26:21 --- join: aum (n=aum@60-234-156-82.bitstream.orcon.net.nz) joined #forth 15:31:48 --- quit: Cheery ("Leaving") 16:46:21 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth 18:57:02 --- join: amca_at_cins (i=amca@rdlax11-a176.dialup.optusnet.com.au) joined #forth 18:57:59 Hello 18:59:52 hello amca 19:01:34 hey 19:07:58 How is everyone today? 19:08:12 * crc is doing good, depsite having a bad cold 19:09:59 :( 19:10:17 Its winter where you are eh? 19:10:21 yeah 19:10:56 * crc has been sick almost continually since late September; it's getting annoying now 19:11:01 Famn 19:11:03 er 19:11:06 Dann 19:11:11 er...damn 19:11:16 heh 19:11:24 >.> 19:11:37 What have you been working on of late? 19:11:41 * crc is now in the process of moving retroforth.org to a new server 19:12:18 Ah 19:12:22 I've got about 2/3 of the content moved over (and lots of new stuff too) 19:12:29 A new personal server? 19:12:41 Or provided by a 2nd party? 19:12:48 one of retroforth's users is providing space on his dedicated server 19:12:57 Sw33t 19:13:00 yeah 19:13:13 the new server rocks 19:13:21 He got better bandwidth or space? 19:13:28 * crc has root access too, so he can set things up the way he wants 19:13:30 both 19:13:37 and more processing power to play with 19:14:21 O_O 19:14:39 Root access eh? Gullible fr user? ;) 19:14:44 fr = rf 19:15:23 no 19:15:32 I have more experience admin'ing a server than he does 19:15:47 LOL. Even worse! ;) 19:15:49 so I'm slowly setting everything up properly 19:16:02 * crc isn't complaining ;) 19:16:04 But quick to bring everything crashing down? :) 19:16:20 How has the new manual been going? 19:16:22 it shouldn't get dragged down too quickly 19:16:28 that's progressing smoothly 19:16:45 Cool 19:16:55 I think I'll finish converting it to RDML tomorrow and then I can flesh out the retroforth-specific additions 19:18:15 What is it in presently? 19:18:44 complete word list, information on the dictionary structure and word classes, 19:19:24 What are you converting it to RDML from? 19:19:27 notes on lexical scoping, vocabularies (as implemented in rx), vectored words, 19:19:31 OpenOffice 19:20:03 I'm also updating the old tutorial to reflect the current versions of retro 19:21:28 Cooll 19:21:40 Ive got a general Forth question 19:22:06 I ws wondering before why Forth doesnt have the concept of namespaces. 19:22:27 Then I found out that it has a similar concept called ord-lists Is this right? 19:22:37 (word-lists) 19:22:51 ans forths do 19:24:17 ans forths have namespaces or word_lists? 19:24:22 word lists 19:24:26 * amca_at_cins nods 19:25:06 --- part: amca_at_cins left #forth 19:29:13 --- join: amca_at_cins (n=amca@rdlax11-a176.dialup.optusnet.com.au) joined #forth 19:29:25 Sorry 19:29:36 WinXP decided to put on Filterkeys or such for fun 19:30:04 What did I miss? 19:44:46 nothing 19:45:04 * crc doesn't miss WinXP 19:45:37 crc, what are you using now? 19:45:42 FreeBSD 6 19:46:00 i am upgrading to netbsd 3.0 at the moment 19:46:22 * crc intends to try NetBSD sometime soon 19:46:47 i use it on 4 platforms ;) 19:46:53 cool 19:47:10 I have at least two that it can run on 19:47:19 * amca_at_cins has to use his GFs computer at her place 19:47:46 when using windows xp, putty.exe is a good thing to have 19:48:08 putty.exe? 19:48:18 ssh client 19:48:33 the guy who programmed it is a nice guy 19:48:34 http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/putty/ 19:48:52 Ah 19:48:54 and he wrote his own ssh code, which means it has escaped a few openssh bugs, and is small =) 19:49:10 hehe 19:53:37 SunDragon: What have you been working on of late? 19:54:29 well, before i started upgrading my machines to 3.0, i was playing with gforth 19:54:39 i recently removed nfs from my home network 19:55:02 once i get a feel for gforth, i plan to write an 8086 assembler in ANS forth 19:55:30 cool. 19:55:49 then write a little forth in that, some words for using floppy and FAT12, and redo my book on a floppy project from years ago.. make it a little more technically elegant 19:56:17 then, take what i learn and make a little forth for the gp2x 19:56:24 gp2x? 19:57:07 dual-cpu (arm) handheld gaming machine, runs on 2 AA batteries, has usb, reads SD media, has a backlit color screen, factory shipped with linux installed 19:57:40 i hope i can get a usb keyboard working on it 19:58:19 O_O 19:58:23 Sounds sweet 19:58:33 Is it Korean? 19:58:44 last i saw it was just under USD 190, it is Korean and they are having trouble keeping up with demand 19:59:15 hehe 19:59:21 Excellant 20:00:34 So it is basically a handheld gaming console that one can easily write OSS for? 20:00:56 yes.. the biggest stumble i have found so far is that it uses SD media 20:01:11 from what i hear, you can't get specs for SD without signing an NDA, so no OSS there 20:01:11 How so? 20:01:17 Ah 20:01:24 but you can use SD in backward compatibility MMC mode 20:01:44 it is slower, but oh well.. i think riscy pygness does it 20:01:56 Is my memory wrong or can SD understand ATA? 20:02:15 i think you may be thinking about CF 20:02:21 * amca_at_cins nods 20:02:26 thatś it 20:03:54 If it has USB, cant you just hook up your PC to it and use the gp2x OS calls to write to the SD? 20:04:29 i don't know 20:05:00 Might be wortyh checking out :) 20:05:36 How much can SDs store these days? 20:06:57 i think i saw 2gb ones in the store 20:07:25 sweet 20:09:46 i see 1gb for $76 at newegg.com 20:10:36 heres 2gb for $206. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820145574 20:10:41 * amca_at_cins looks 20:10:41 seems to me that SD is more expensive than CF 20:11:05 i'd be tempted to duct-tape a USB CF reader to the unit and call it good 20:11:56 with my luck, it is a client and not a host 20:13:08 lol 20:26:25 ¨The GP2X unit has 64 Megabytes of NAND flash memory where files and software can be stored. ¨ Nice :D 20:31:47 the GP2X does not appear to support USB host mode 20:33:05 :( 20:34:06 so much for my easy keyboard idea 20:34:35 i've heard of keyboard hacks in thie situation, used on PDA's 20:34:46 Like? 20:34:57 As in what sort of keyboard hacks? 20:35:08 it was years ago, i don't remember any model numbers 20:35:32 but i heard there are proprietary keyboards made to work with pda's that don't support usb host mode 20:36:14 Ah 20:36:18 hmmm 20:42:20 http://www.amidasimputer.com/ 20:42:48 * amca_at_cins looks 22:08:53 --- quit: aum () 22:25:41 --- quit: swalters_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 23:20:22 * amca_at_cins is away: I'm busy 23:40:26 --- quit: JasonWoof ("off to bed") 23:48:27 --- join: nballen (n=nballen@adsl-69-111-248-132.dsl.renocs.pacbell.net) joined #forth 23:48:48 Hi. 23:56:34 --- join: amca_ (n=amca@rdlax10-a150.dialup.optusnet.com.au) joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/05.12.25