00:00:00 --- log: started forth/05.12.19
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02:41:41 <snowrichard> hi
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07:21:48 <SunDragon> starting forth is a neat book
07:24:42 <PoppaVic> Quite dated. "Thinking Forth" is a more decent text.
07:28:10 <SunDragon> i'll definitely give that one a read next
07:28:46 <SunDragon> in starting forth, it gives an example ' word 24 dump
07:29:30 <SunDragon> this always causes pforth to coredump
07:29:37 <PoppaVic> not suprising
07:30:03 <PoppaVic> #1) ' can be irksome, #2) dump can also be irksome - if there
07:30:07 <SunDragon> could it be that dump expects a memory address, and ' is returning something other than a memory access?
07:30:22 <SunDragon> access=address
07:30:34 <PoppaVic> ' is mandated to work with XT's - not necessarily addresses
07:31:08 <PoppaVic> as a rule, I would suggest tinkering in gforth and using 'see' a lot.
07:31:26 <PoppaVic> pforth, like pfe, is pretty specialized.
07:32:22 <SunDragon> see noname 
07:32:22 <SunDragon> : noname  
07:32:22 <SunDragon>   1209300328 1209299616 ! ;
07:32:31 <PoppaVic> yep
07:33:12 <PoppaVic> 'noname' is used over and over to create words that will never be listed, but rather act as vectors or code-points
07:35:59 <SunDragon> what is accomplished by storing 1209300328 at 1209299616?
07:38:39 <PoppaVic> No idea, you need the source
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09:30:21 <SunDragon> is there a concise reference for ANS forth, or should the standard itself be sufficient?
09:30:44 <PoppaVic> the ANS std is just that - some folks obey it.
09:32:10 <segher> the std itself is about as concise as you can get
09:32:30 <PoppaVic> the way it is, yeah
09:33:10 <PoppaVic> Shit, C can't really organize; Posix is mind-fucked: why should ANS be different?
09:33:28 <segher> ans is quite quite nice
09:33:43 <segher> it's a good standard
09:34:04 <segher> no-one agrees with everything in it, but it's a good compromise
09:34:05 <PoppaVic> I'd disagree, but then.. I've suffered std for years
09:34:45 <segher> you disagree that it is as good as standards come?
09:34:53 <PoppaVic> umm
09:35:02 <PoppaVic> I'd have to compare them deeply.
09:35:10 <SunDragon> i like having SOME standard
09:35:16 <segher> yes
09:35:24 <segher> and that means having to compromise
09:35:41 <PoppaVic> As a rule, I wish to fuck they'd vary in the ABI - with a header - and let us all get along above asm/C
09:35:53 <segher> one of the best things about the ans forth standard is that it leaves a whole lot of freedom to the implementer, still
09:36:16 <segher> poppavic: that didn't parse?
09:36:32 <PoppaVic> I think ANS merely "coagulated" a lot of ancient "FORTH Dimensions" issues.
09:36:41 <SunDragon> it can help when it comes time to point the terrifying finger of blame
09:36:45 <PoppaVic> ..I can't really say it thrilled me
09:37:07 <PoppaVic> otoh, it beats a vaccum
09:37:40 <PoppaVic> I can't really admit it thrilled me more than FIG-forth did
09:37:46 <SunDragon> looks like ANS does have sections that list all the words.. that is what i was looking for
09:38:00 <PoppaVic> yep
09:38:10 <segher> last appendix
09:38:21 <SunDragon> now i need to learn some of those words so i can remember which ones to look up
09:38:49 <PoppaVic> A lot of it is engine-predicated
09:38:57 <PoppaVic> ..sadly
09:39:21 <PoppaVic> Worse, it doesn't respect FHS - and, of course, that's typical.
09:39:24 <SunDragon> ``The FIG model was placed in the public domain, and was ported to a wide variety of computer systems. Because the bulk of the FIG Forth implementation was the same across all machines, programs written in FIG Forth enjoyed a substantial degree of portability, even for system-level programs that directly manipulate the internals of the Forth system implementation.'' drool!
09:39:52 <PoppaVic> yeah: they had a fist of asm-words. No more
09:39:52 <SunDragon> that is exactly the sort of system i'd like to see.. minimized machine-dependant code, strong portability
09:40:05 <PoppaVic> well, good luck
09:40:32 <PoppaVic> I wish so as well, and too many talk-the-talk, and get lost when they promise to walk-the-walk.
09:40:42 <segher> my engine is like that -- runs on everything that GCC can target
09:41:02 <PoppaVic> yeah, but I really try to avoid gcc specifics
09:41:17 <segher> i use label-as-value
09:41:23 <PoppaVic> as a rule, if you can run gcc, you can run my shit, though
09:41:24 <segher> and C99 stuff
09:41:36 <SunDragon> i don't talk any talk, but i have experienced the walk at the netbsd project
09:41:46 <segher> heh
09:41:48 <PoppaVic> segher: I don't, but then: everytime I see wither I start to gag
09:42:05 <SunDragon> it is neat to see the same system run on a bunch of different hardware
09:42:06 <segher> erm?  again, doesn't parse
09:42:16 <PoppaVic> bsd has it's own issue, NETBSD has more
09:42:19 <PoppaVic> "either"
09:42:30 <segher> hah
09:42:44 <SunDragon> PoppaVic: CSRG said the BSD project is finished.. so what do you mean by BSD?
09:42:48 <PoppaVic> gcc-specific code or C99 - the later is bad, the former is worse.
09:43:09 <segher> you really have no idea what you are talking about, eh?
09:43:16 <SunDragon> me?  probably not
09:43:21 <PoppaVic> fbsd, bsd - take yer pick. I can work in all, but it all means tweaks
09:43:34 <SunDragon> poppavic: so when you said bsd, you meant freebsd?
09:43:40 <PoppaVic> segher: yeah, that's why I live in c/gcc
09:44:01 <PoppaVic> SunDragon: I've worked on other bsd, but yeah - that'd apply.
09:44:20 <PoppaVic> I *LIKE* them, but they are not "portable" as nice as we'd like.
09:44:31 <SunDragon> "something has its own issue, that something could be freebsd, but it could be something else"
09:44:54 <PoppaVic> SunDragon: whatever. If you can live in autoshit, yer golden.
09:45:06 <SunDragon> yes, the portability could be improved for sure.. although i think it rivals java
09:45:34 <SunDragon> what is autoshit?
09:45:43 <PoppaVic> Java is a mess - forth rivals THAT
09:46:09 <PoppaVic> GNU autotools: the entire panople
09:46:37 <SunDragon> ah, got it
09:46:54 <SunDragon> the netbsd system build does not use gnu autotools
09:47:04 <SunDragon> but nearly everything in pkgsrc does
09:49:01 <PoppaVic> bsd is nice, but sadly: most distro vary all over and even ignore the FHS
09:49:51 <PoppaVic> I had a LOT more issues porting to solaris/sun than *bsd - from linux.
09:50:09 <PoppaVic> ..nowadays, with macosx, I suffer the issues everywhere.
09:50:33 <segher> i have much more problems porting random shit from linux to bsd than the other way around
09:50:40 <PoppaVic> yeah
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09:50:57 <PoppaVic> linux-specific crap can be ugly as hell: /proc, for example.
09:50:58 <segher> mostly because most linux software is f***ing buggy
09:51:13 <segher> depends
09:51:40 <PoppaVic> Maybe it's directional as well as platform? I've not really focussed on those details - just experienced "issues" for years.
09:52:57 <PoppaVic> I *do* know the more you "wish upon a Posix-star" - the more irked you get as you ponder "wtf" when something is broken... And, that ain't even .ext and FHS.
09:53:34 <SunDragon> FHS released 1996, MDIR released years prior, good thing about standards...
09:54:02 <PoppaVic> Latest Example: <ndbm.h> is Posix; RH decided to fuck it up AND require a lib.
09:54:13 <PoppaVic> I dunno "MDIR" - site?
09:54:25 <SunDragon> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mdirs   <-- i do not think this information is accurate
09:54:51 <PoppaVic> the FHS is what we were all supposed to accept - every distro twists it in perverse ways.
09:55:10 <PoppaVic> SunDragon: thanks, if it ain't "more current", I'll avoid it.
09:55:54 <PoppaVic> ..and, to make it worse: the FHS is twisted in ways you can't really ascertain via code.
09:56:07 <SunDragon> http://netbsd.gw.com/cgi-bin/man-cgi?mtree++NetBSD-current
09:57:24 <PoppaVic> The least example, (and a worse case): Tell me what libs 'c' will automatically include - and what paths it will look (in order) for the libs, as well as the ".h" files. Portably. Everywhere.
09:58:29 <PoppaVic> Tell me as well where/order we search for "static/dynamic libaries" and "plugins"
09:58:56 <PoppaVic> ..granting that dynamicism is extra-support.
10:00:10 <SunDragon> kind of like asking what target does the c compiler default to
10:00:13 <PoppaVic> In what paths should I look for binaries? For ROOT, a member of a group, for a user? At what point do we trust the environment? Why?
10:00:34 <PoppaVic> bad answer and llama - but yer on the right track ;-)
10:00:46 <SunDragon> llama?
10:01:05 <SunDragon> what answer were you hoping for?
10:01:10 <PoppaVic> "bad llama" (The Emperors New Groove)
10:01:31 <PoppaVic> Not sure, but yer heading that way: mull it for a few days/weeks
10:02:09 <SunDragon> oh great now i am a grasshopper
10:02:13 <PoppaVic> It's nontrivial, and it and the FHS are so abused it makes yer head ache
10:03:38 <PoppaVic> Near as I can tell, (and I've been over this for months), a lot of it is ABI-level: distro/platform/cpu. And there is just no "Good Way" to ascertain the crap.
10:04:11 <SunDragon> i think you are correct, though it does not seem to be holding back linux or bsd developers
10:04:29 <PoppaVic> I'm not sure why. But, noncommunication/isolation and stupidity seem to be the rule.
10:04:57 <PoppaVic> right: each works their universe, and adopts posix and standards as they like.
10:05:20 <SunDragon> does posix define where dynamic libraries should be?
10:05:29 <PoppaVic> Have you ever had to deal with a file or three in /etc ?
10:05:49 <SunDragon> what do you mean by deal?
10:05:56 <PoppaVic> read/use
10:06:01 <SunDragon> yes
10:06:05 <PoppaVic> ok..
10:06:35 <PoppaVic> One sec, yer feeling you have a grasp on the universe... The next time, you ponder "WTF are you asswipes DOING?"
10:06:49 <SunDragon> concrete example?
10:07:17 <PoppaVic> oh, hell.. I can't anymore: macosx mulches /etc worse than debian did
10:07:31 <PoppaVic> ..I can't much use those files anymore
10:08:36 <SunDragon> i read an article about macosx's replacement for init/inetd/cron
10:08:59 <SunDragon> what used to be 1 line in inetd.conf is now a minimum of 25 lines in an xml file
10:09:25 <SunDragon> and the cron functionality doesn't work correctly yet, so you still need to have cron running in parallel
10:09:39 <PoppaVic> yeah
10:09:56 <SunDragon> and what's this crap about apple pretending to be open source
10:10:04 <PoppaVic> I'd also point out the bootstrap under /init is freaky
10:10:11 <SunDragon> they open source a piece or two, but as a whole they are drm-happy money-grabbers
10:10:24 <PoppaVic> oh, it *IS*, but it's mostly ojjc
10:10:27 <PoppaVic> objc
10:10:47 <PoppaVic> and, frankly - I'm not impressed
10:10:50 <SunDragon> not the whole system.. maybe the kernel and an app or two
10:11:12 <SunDragon> what really distinguishes it from next?  flashy gui and commercial support?
10:11:21 <SunDragon> i said next, i meant rhapsody
10:11:22 <SunDragon> whatever
10:11:38 <PoppaVic> As a rule, I *LIKE* the os checking with the supplier for updates/upgrades to installed materials - and downloading in the background, then asking to install.
10:11:42 <SunDragon> next never was unix.. it was an oddball from day 1.. and you expect it to be compatible with open source?
10:12:01 <PoppaVic> yeah, NEXT was a laugh
10:12:44 <PoppaVic> Other than a bsd-core, and the auto-upgrade/install: I'd never again buy a mac
10:12:59 <SunDragon> i don't buy the pitch that it is a bsd core
10:13:10 <SunDragon> maybe there is a bsd network stack in there and a few utilities
10:13:16 <PoppaVic> Anyway, the FHS and extensions are a major issue
10:13:21 <SunDragon> but there are gonzo kernel internals and executable formats
10:13:53 <PoppaVic> SunDragon: actually, unless I need to build a so/plugin: the sucker is pretty well "standard"
10:14:19 <SunDragon> and nt has a posix subsystem
10:14:29 <SunDragon> they even target pkgsrc at it
10:14:40 <PoppaVic> ..and, mind you: I live in termwin/x11, joe and gcc/make
10:14:57 <SunDragon> cygwin will do that in windows 95
10:15:06 <PoppaVic> no
10:15:09 <SunDragon> no?
10:15:20 <PoppaVic> djgg/cygwin will EMULARE *nix
10:15:24 <PoppaVic> EMULATE, too
10:15:30 <PoppaVic> ..poorly
10:15:39 <PoppaVic> I really, truly get gcc
10:15:52 <SunDragon> in what way is cygwin gcc fake?
10:15:56 <PoppaVic> What I don't get is ELF shit
10:15:58 <SunDragon> or cygwin xfree86?
10:16:23 <PoppaVic> they emulate, last I heard: as in "should work, might not"
10:16:43 <SunDragon> what might not work?
10:16:58 <PoppaVic> More often than not, macosx and gcc treat the system as a gcc/bsd bed
10:17:41 <PoppaVic> only in the goddamned linker does it falter, and the loader - well, I ignore the manpages and use dlopen & friends.
10:18:08 <SunDragon> how do i find the most recently defined word in forth?
10:18:09 <PoppaVic> They'd *LOVE* me to embrace objc
10:18:39 <PoppaVic> latest @ .word? I use 'words' and break it
10:21:29 <SunDragon> having trouble finding latest in dpans
10:21:46 <PoppaVic> it would be
10:22:07 <PoppaVic> I just tried after booting gforth
10:22:31 <PoppaVic> ...you have to remember: most forth embed the name and code - all in 'here'
10:22:51 <SunDragon> it works in gforth, i just don't find it in the dpans word lists
10:22:59 <PoppaVic> ahh
10:23:07 <PoppaVic> What worked in gforth?
10:23:17 <SunDragon> latest @ .word
10:23:44 <PoppaVic> GForth 0.5.0, Copyright (C) 1995-2000 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
10:23:44 <PoppaVic> GForth comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY; for details type `license'
10:23:44 <PoppaVic> Type `bye' to exit
10:23:44 <PoppaVic> latest @ .word 
10:23:44 <PoppaVic> *the terminal*:1: Undefined word
10:23:47 <PoppaVic> latest @ .word
10:23:47 <PoppaVic> ^^^^^^
10:23:49 <PoppaVic> Backtrace:
10:23:51 <PoppaVic> $1F150 throw 
10:23:53 <PoppaVic> $291B0 no.extensions 
10:24:03 <PoppaVic> it's NOT promisary.
10:24:32 <SunDragon> oh, it is doing that for me as well.. i wonder why i thought i saw it succeed earlier
10:24:51 <PoppaVic> yeah.. even fails with : foo . '
10:24:58 <PoppaVic> er, '/;
10:25:08 <SunDragon> Gforth 0.6.2
10:25:15 <SunDragon> latest @ .word 
10:25:15 <SunDragon> *the terminal*:1: Stack underflow
10:25:15 <SunDragon> latest @ .word
10:25:15 <SunDragon>          ^^^^^
10:25:54 <PoppaVic> yep
10:26:08 <PoppaVic> prolly need >name type
10:26:17 <PoppaVic> anyway: welcome to forth ;->
10:26:26 <PoppaVic> I'm gonna'
10:26:42 <PoppaVic> ..call it a Knight and cogitate this damned code.
10:26:49 <PoppaVic> Stay well, folks...
10:26:53 <SunDragon> good chatting, take it easy
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11:01:05 <SunDragon> how do you tell the size of an array in forth?
11:02:49 <segher> what is an "array"?
11:04:16 <humulus> mayber create v 1 , 2 , 3 , :)
11:04:44 <segher> oh, in that case:     here v - 1 cells /
11:05:01 <segher> or just   3    as you know the size anyway ;-)
11:07:18 <SunDragon> create v 10 , 20 , 30 , 40 ,  ok
11:07:18 <SunDragon> : foobar ." foobar" cr ; redefined foobar   ok
11:07:37 <SunDragon> here v - 1 cells / . 23 ok
11:07:44 <segher> well duh, sure
11:08:30 <segher> anyway, in forth, you don't normally calculate the size of an array
11:08:45 <segher> you either just *know* the size or store it somewhere
11:08:48 <SunDragon> in forth, can you grow an array after defining other words?
11:09:29 <segher> better not have that array in the normal data space then...  got to dynamically alloc it
11:10:59 <SunDragon> how do you dynamically alloc an array?
11:12:01 <segher> with alloc-mem?
11:12:16 <segher> or whatever it is called on your forth system
11:12:29 <humulus> segher: in the gforth manaul check the tutorial
11:12:43 <segher> huh?
11:13:03 <SunDragon> dpans defines allocate, i'll see if i have that
11:13:04 <humulus> segher: sorry
11:13:07 <humulus> SunDragon: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/gforth/Docs-html/Arrays-and-Records-Tutorial.html#Arrays%20and%20Records%20Tutorial
11:13:47 <SunDragon> ``Forth has no standard words for defining data structures such as arrays''
11:13:54 <SunDragon> hrm, what about CREATE ?
11:14:14 <segher> that doesn't define a data structure
11:14:22 <segher> it just names a certain address
11:15:49 <SunDragon> the gforth tutorial looks worth a read
11:16:34 <segher> yeah, you should
11:25:08 <madgarden> Does really Forth need standard array words?
11:26:19 <SunDragon> i am just learning forth, so i don't feel qualified to answer that
11:26:29 <segher> it doesn't
11:26:34 <SunDragon> the book i am reading has a chapter on arrays, which lead me to believe that forth had arrays
11:26:56 <segher> arrays are just consecutive memory locations.  we have those, sure
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11:28:21 <SunDragon> <SunDragon> Forth has no standard words for defining data structures such as arrays.  What about CREATE?  <segher> that doesn't define a data structure  <segher> arrays are just consecutive memory locations.  we have those, sure
11:28:46 <SunDragon> so i guess arrays don't count as data structures
11:29:25 <segher> there is no special method in forth to access the nth element of an array
11:42:18 <madgarden> It's easy enough to make one.
11:42:47 <segher> it needs to know the size of the data...
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12:21:25 <JasonWoof> we don't generally consider the heap a "data structure"
12:21:27 <JasonWoof> it's just ram
12:21:38 <JasonWoof> you can access it with memory addresses, stores and fetches
12:22:52 <madgarden> Yep.
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14:16:37 <crc> hi everyone
14:20:16 <saon> hey crc
14:21:05 * crc has been playing with Gtk
14:21:56 * saon doesn't have any gtk experience
14:22:00 <saon> how is it?
14:22:10 <crc> the api likes long function names
14:22:18 <crc> gtk_signal_connect_object
14:22:22 <Amanita_Virosa> gtk is a pain
14:22:23 <saon> ick
14:22:40 <crc> I'm wrapping the raw gtk api in forth words to make it tolerable
14:22:47 <saon> that seems to be the newest CS fad
14:22:51 <crc> Amanita_Virosa: easy to interface to though
14:23:09 <saon> double SpeedOfAirplaneGoingToFrance;
14:23:14 <crc> and it's not any worse than using raw xlib :)
14:23:16 <crc> heh
14:23:35 <Amanita_Virosa> well no, raw xlib is a tad painful
14:23:44 <Amanita_Virosa> i wrote my own widget set a couple years back on top of raw xlib
14:24:05 <crc> is it freely availible?
14:24:08 * saon has been pondering creating a wm in forth
14:24:12 * crc too
14:24:22 <Amanita_Virosa> nope, i never released it
14:24:30 <crc> ok
14:24:42 <saon> crc: what kind of wm would you make?
14:24:53 <saon> or rather what do you use now that you would like to replace?
14:25:41 <crc> saon: I'm not fully sure yet
14:25:43 <Amanita_Virosa> i rather like what im using, it's almost perfect.
14:25:54 <saon> Amanita_Virosa: what are you using?
14:26:04 <Amanita_Virosa> vtwm
14:26:18 <crc> I'm using Enlightenment DR16 on this box presently; and fluxbox
14:26:20 <Amanita_Virosa> with a very custom config
14:26:35 <Amanita_Virosa> i stripped off all window decoration except for a 2-pixel blue border around each window
14:26:42 <Amanita_Virosa> my desktop normally just contains a bunch of xterms
14:26:45 <saon> i usually switch between BadWM and ion
14:26:48 <Amanita_Virosa> each of which automagically launch screen
14:27:08 <crc> mine too
14:27:11 <Amanita_Virosa> window management is done by a variety of keyboard shortcuts and the touchpad
14:27:21 <Amanita_Virosa> i have 5 meta keys, all of which i use (i rebound caps lock)
14:27:23 <crc> I'd like to do something like ratpoison
14:27:37 <saon> have either of you used treewm?
14:27:38 <Amanita_Virosa> i even built a custom on-screen display system, and set it up to control my mixer
14:28:11 <saon> it brings together a whole different way to manage stuff, and it does so fairly cleanly, but needs better keyboard control imo
14:29:41 <Amanita_Virosa> i like the fact that my consoles are not tied to the xserver
14:29:47 <Amanita_Virosa> i can log off, and they'll come right back up
14:30:00 <Amanita_Virosa> i even have a setup that i can select when i log in to keep the whole desktop static
14:30:10 <Amanita_Virosa> (uses vnc and a whack of scripting)
14:30:22 <saon> heheh, cool
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14:31:55 <Amanita_Virosa> still not as fun as the on-screen display thingie.
14:32:07 <Amanita_Virosa> when i plug in a usb device, i get a notification on screen
14:32:12 <Amanita_Virosa> and all sorts of other cool stuff like that :)
14:36:06 <crc> http://forthworks.com/blog/?p=198  is the source code for the Gtk bindings and a simple test program
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19:47:09 <SunDragon> why would i pick MOVE over CMOVE> ?
19:52:50 <Raystm2> excellent question, to which, I too, would like to know the answer.
19:53:18 <Raystm2> is CMOVE> a character-move?
19:54:08 <Raystm2> Or is it Cell-move.
19:54:19 * Raystm2 goes to the doc's to find out.
20:08:50 <SunDragon> dpans: If u is greater than zero, copy u consecutive characters from the data space starting at c-addr1 to that starting at c-addr2, proceeding character-by-character from higher addresses to lower addresses.
20:09:29 <SunDragon> i guess cmove> does characters and move does cells
20:10:17 <SunDragon> dpans says move uses address units, not sure if those are synonymous with cells
20:39:26 <JasonWoof> address units would be characters on "normal" computers
20:39:55 <JasonWoof> iirc the term refers to the smallest amount of memory you can "address"
20:40:24 <JasonWoof> the amount of memory between memory address x and memory address x+1
20:41:17 <JasonWoof> the ansi forth standard tryes not to assume that this is 8 bits
21:19:00 <SunDragon> imho that is actually cool
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21:32:43 <snowrichard> ho
21:32:46 <snowrichard> hi
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22:48:21 <JasonWoof> hi
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