00:00:00 --- log: started forth/05.12.16
00:31:52 --- join: skylan_ (n=sjh@dialup-216-211-5-5.tbaytel.net) joined #forth
00:44:41 --- quit: skylan (Connection timed out)
00:54:37 --- quit: snowrichard ("Leaving")
01:07:49 --- quit: Raystm2 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
01:10:46 --- join: Raystm2 (n=Raystm2@adsl-69-149-48-140.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth
01:41:09 --- join: Cheery (i=Henri@a81-197-18-99.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #forth
02:00:09 --- quit: sw_lters_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
02:23:10 --- join: sw_lters_ (n=swalters@6532183hfc82.tampabay.res.rr.com) joined #forth
02:59:25 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@adsl-69-155-177-154.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net) joined #forth
02:59:59 --- quit: snowrichard (Client Quit)
05:22:25 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pete@0-1pool46-153.nas30.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth
05:56:19 --- join: Ray-work (n=Raystm2@adsl-68-90-192-212.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth
06:32:15 --- nick: Raystm2 -> nanstm
07:14:21 --- quit: SunDragon ("Leaving")
07:15:35 <madwork> Hey.
07:17:31 <PoppaVic> lo
07:45:41 --- join: sproingie (n=chuck@64-121-2-59.c3-0.sfrn-ubr8.sfrn.ca.cable.rcn.com) joined #forth
07:58:47 --- quit: segher (Remote closed the connection)
08:07:45 --- quit: PoppaVic ("Pulls the pin...")
08:39:13 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pete@0-1pool73-126.nas24.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth
09:44:33 <PoppaVic> goddamnit *sigh*
09:45:34 --- part: PoppaVic left #forth
10:20:14 --- quit: madwork ("?OUT OF DATA  ERROR")
10:21:13 --- join: madwork (n=foo@derby.metrics.com) joined #forth
10:36:52 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@adsl-69-155-177-154.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net) joined #forth
10:37:46 --- quit: snowrichard (Client Quit)
10:37:54 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@adsl-69-155-177-154.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net) joined #forth
10:40:19 --- quit: sw_lters_ (Connection timed out)
10:40:39 <snowrichard> morning
10:54:10 --- join: tathi (n=josh@pdpc/supporter/bronze/tathi) joined #forth
10:54:10 --- quit: tathi (Client Quit)
10:54:17 --- join: tathi (n=josh@pdpc/supporter/bronze/tathi) joined #forth
10:55:04 <snowrichard> hi tathi are you really here? 
10:57:30 <tathi> yes
10:57:46 <snowrichard> how are you
10:58:01 <tathi> I'm doing well; you?
10:58:04 <snowrichard> last few times I checked in here it was real quiet :) 
10:58:40 <tathi> it does get quiet sometimes :)
10:58:41 <snowrichard> had trouble connecting to freenode this morning I see you have to use a different server name now
10:59:53 <snowrichard> which forth do you use?
11:00:29 <tathi> various
11:00:46 <tathi> I have a partially completed one of my own
11:00:52 <tathi> also gforth
11:01:09 <tathi> and, since I ported IsForth to PPC Linux, I use that occasionally.
11:01:43 <snowrichard> I've installed gforth before.  Also tried writing a few of my one. also installed isforth.  I am not real good with x86 asm though, so the code was hard to follow.
11:02:33 <snowrichard> My first assembler was IBM 360 :) 
11:03:33 <snowrichard> PPC on a Mac?
11:10:15 <tathi> yes
11:10:21 <tathi> though I'm running Linux
11:10:36 <tathi> I bought it just before OS X came out
11:10:49 <tathi> well, before it was out of beta, anyway.
11:11:09 <tathi> So I tried Linux, and decided that I liked it better than what I had seen of OS X.
11:13:02 <JasonWoof> on Tuesday my friend Josh Freeman was trying to convince me install Mac OS
11:13:18 <JasonWoof> telling me about quicksilver and stuff
11:13:45 <JasonWoof> gave me a pretty impressive user story
11:14:11 <JasonWoof> but it still didn't seem more effecient than Ion
11:14:50 <JasonWoof> the only thing that tempts me about macosx is the graphics drivers
11:15:09 <JasonWoof> oh, speaking of josh freeman, he got me to try vlc
11:15:28 <JasonWoof> which is much like mplayer, but works better in some cases
11:15:38 <JasonWoof> eg it can play DVDs just fine
11:17:14 --- quit: snowrichard ("Leaving")
11:20:37 <tathi> :)
11:23:47 <JasonWoof> has one peculiar behavior though
11:27:16 <JasonWoof> if you play multiple movies (eg "vlc gladtrs.mpg falldown.mpg") when it's done it prints "main playlist: nothing to play" to the terminal, then does _not_ exit
11:29:38 <tathi> huh.
11:30:14 <JasonWoof> with just one it plays it then exits
11:33:27 <JasonWoof> huh... seems to be doing the same for one file
12:15:26 <JasonWoof> why does it take a cattle prod to get people to read documentation?
12:23:03 <tathi> dunno
12:23:08 <tathi> It sure is annoying though.
12:24:11 <I440r> ive used mplayer to play dvd's before without any problems
12:24:36 <I440r> ohh yea you have to tell it to play a given part hehe
12:29:09 --- join: Astrobe (n=fred@85.69.106.223) joined #forth
12:29:44 <Astrobe> Hi!
12:55:14 <JasonWoof> mplayer crashes and screws up my colors on my monitor if I try to play dvds or anything with a higher resolution
12:55:52 <JasonWoof> I can run such things with -vf scale=320:-3
12:56:05 <JasonWoof> but it doesn't play smooth
12:56:55 <JasonWoof> although strangely enough, it can play some bigger stuff just fine if I turn the sound off (-nosound)
13:33:43 --- join: virl (n=virl@62.178.85.149) joined #forth
13:34:07 <virl> ho
13:34:56 <Astrobe> w dy?
13:49:16 <virl> hmm, who is Astrobe? new here eh?
13:49:55 <Astrobe> so, so.
14:11:46 --- nick: skylan_ -> skylan
14:35:05 --- join: snoopy_1711 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-157-152.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth
14:39:23 --- quit: Cheery ("Leaving")
14:51:30 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
14:51:31 --- nick: snoopy_1711 -> Snoopy42
14:52:52 --- join: true-grue (i=true-gru@ppp138.medlux.ru) joined #forth
14:54:20 <true-grue> hi
14:54:50 <Astrobe> hello true-grue
14:55:44 --- quit: Astrobe ("Leaving")
14:56:07 --- join: Astrobe (n=fred@85.69.106.223) joined #forth
15:02:51 <true-grue> Astrobe, welcome back :)
15:03:51 <Astrobe> true-grue: yes, I'm testing different IRC clients.
15:13:35 --- quit: true-grue ()
15:14:13 --- join: slava (n=slava@CPE0080ad77a020-CM000e5cdfda14.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth
15:23:13 <crc> hi everyone
15:24:11 <slava> hi crc
15:27:20 <Astrobe> Hi crc
15:29:04 <slava> crc, how's retroforth going?
15:34:39 <crc> very well
15:35:08 <slava> what are you working on?
15:35:18 <crc> documentation mostly
15:35:35 <crc> The major changes to the code are done, so I'm documenting them
15:36:14 <crc> still working on updating some of the ports for use with the revamped core
15:37:42 <Astrobe> docs... sometimes it looks like one spends more time on writing them than on code. Especially when one does translations.
15:37:47 <slava> i'm working on an online help system for factor
15:38:06 <slava> crc: i implemented word-wrap in about three different ways just to find the simplest approach :)
15:38:10 <crc> cool
15:38:14 <slava> that's about 20 lines of code output over the last 3 days
15:38:24 <crc> that's a good output :)
15:38:25 <slava> but really this was the only missing component
15:38:39 <slava> i also need a cross-reference system for help articles but i'm going to generalize the system i have for finding word usages
15:38:48 <crc> cool
15:39:03 * crc needs to try the factor UI sometime
15:40:02 <slava> i also came up with a way to redesign the compiler backend to remove two passes
15:40:18 <Astrobe> slava: what is your medium for this help system? files, blocks, gui...?
15:40:35 <slava> hyperlinked text displayed in a GUI, or through the HTTP server
15:40:51 <slava> in the GUI there are clickable code examples
15:41:24 <Astrobe> which gui toolkit do you use?
15:41:32 <slava> i wrote my own; i do graphics output with opengl
15:41:51 <slava> its about 2000 lines of code
15:41:53 <slava> http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/factor/Factor/Factor/library/ui/
15:42:30 <Astrobe> you have foreseen my next questions...:)
15:51:33 <Astrobe> in the live browser, how do I display the source for the selected word?
15:52:39 <slava> factorcode.org/responder/browser/?
15:52:55 <slava> you can click a word definition
15:53:28 <slava> note that it doesn't show source, but decompiled definitions from memory
15:53:38 <slava> the source looks prettier
15:54:21 <Astrobe> nevermind, it didn't work cause java was disabled on my browser
15:54:58 <slava> you don't need java
15:55:04 <slava> it might use javascript though, i forget
15:55:08 <slava> i didn't write the browser web app
15:55:23 <slava> java and javascript are two totally different languages :)
15:56:00 <Astrobe> Both were disabled anyway!
15:57:15 <slava> i draw the line at flash but leave javascript enabled. too many useful sites depend on it
15:59:43 <Astrobe> I turned em off cause some sites I've recently visited has Xmas Java animations that where eating my CPU.
16:00:47 <slava> well java and javascript are totally distinct
16:02:05 <slava> it might have even been an animated GIF :)
16:03:29 <Astrobe> No, one of them was snow<something, I forgot the where> that where floating over the screen.
16:04:05 <slava> that would be javascript
16:04:18 <slava> java applets run inside a rectangular region of the page, or open windows
16:09:55 <Astrobe> well, i must say i'm a bit impressed, althought i wouldn't call Factor 'minimal' (from my POV). When did u start the project?
16:10:33 <slava> its minimal compared to lisp implementations, since its really in that family of languages
16:10:36 <slava> i started it two years ago
16:18:43 --- quit: Astrobe ("leaving")
16:19:12 --- join: fred (n=fred@85.69.106.223) joined #forth
16:19:25 <fred> oops.
16:19:31 --- nick: fred -> astrobe
16:19:43 <astrobe> oops*2
16:23:32 <astrobe> damn, you've done jEdit too?! may I ask you how old you are?
16:24:00 <slava> 21
16:24:20 <astrobe> Now I really hate you
16:24:23 <astrobe> :)
16:24:39 <JasonWoof> yaaar!
16:25:05 <JasonWoof> you don't have to be an old fart to be a good programmer
16:25:21 <JasonWoof> how old was that kid that figured out CSS encryption on DVDs? 14?
16:25:51 <slava> i work with a 53 year old guy
16:26:11 <slava> he did forth for 10 years back in the 80's, now he writes bloated, hard to understand Objective C code
16:26:42 <astrobe> JasonWoof: that's right.
16:27:28 <JasonWoof> I wrote a really nice fractal generator for Mac in highschool
16:27:44 <slava> 68k mac? :)
16:28:19 <JasonWoof> no, ppc
16:28:25 <JasonWoof> os 8.6+
16:28:43 <slava> i was in elementary school when ppc macs came out
16:28:45 <JasonWoof> runs fine in Classic
16:30:00 <JasonWoof> they came out before I cared much
16:34:10 <astrobe> I'm installing jEdit; let's see if it'll replace my vi
16:34:20 <JasonWoof> vim!
16:34:34 <JasonWoof> I started programming at about 13 on my dad's Apple //e
16:34:47 <JasonWoof> just fidling with BASIC
16:34:57 <astrobe> yes, vim. but in an aterm
16:35:17 <JasonWoof> then for a couple months or so I played with chipmonk basic on my mom's SE 30
16:35:35 <JasonWoof> vim is a terminal program
16:35:46 <JasonWoof> but that was too slow, so I decided to learn C
16:36:10 <JasonWoof> and switched to the newer computers my mom had for her graphics design work
16:36:23 <JasonWoof> (7100 or something)
16:36:29 <JasonWoof> 7200 maybe
16:37:07 <astrobe> on my debian vim=gvim
16:40:40 <JasonWoof> weird
16:40:44 <JasonWoof> I never install gvim
16:42:07 <astrobe> I guess you don't use Emacs either...
16:43:08 <JasonWoof> I used emacs for over a year
16:43:13 <JasonWoof> it was cool
16:43:20 <JasonWoof> but I find vim much more productive
16:43:29 <JasonWoof> and it doesn't hurt my hands
16:43:42 <astrobe> Agreed.
16:44:04 <JasonWoof> I was totally obsessed with emaics
16:44:06 <JasonWoof> emacs
16:44:22 <JasonWoof> was way better than any editor I'd used before
16:44:49 <astrobe> I used to use it too.
16:44:53 <JasonWoof> took quite a bit of convincing to get me to install and try vim
16:48:13 <slava> jedit doesn't run very well on os x
16:48:31 <slava> main reason i use it here is because of the factor integration
16:49:19 <JasonWoof> slava: what system are you using?
16:49:26 <slava> mac mini
16:49:36 <slava> its so much slower than my linux machines
16:50:30 <JasonWoof> because of the clock speed?
16:50:49 <slava> well my athlon has more ram, two cpus, and a faster system bus
16:51:04 <slava> and a better video card
16:51:09 <JasonWoof> heh
16:56:16 <astrobe> can't install jedit, neither via java installer nor via apt-get; I get exceptions after exceptions.
16:56:54 <slava> do java -version
16:58:19 <astrobe> gij version 3.3.5 (debian:1.3.3.5-13) ...
16:58:24 <slava> ok, install java :)
16:58:29 <slava> sun's implementation, that is
16:58:39 <slava> gcj is incomplete and probably never will be finished
17:06:38 --- nick: nanstm -> tiff
17:07:00 <astrobe> tried 'sable-vm' found in my distro. Pass install, but refuses to 
17:07:38 <astrobe> ... start. oops; nevermind, I check the faq first
17:09:45 <slava> use the sun vm, its the only that will work
17:10:05 <slava> none of the open source vms are complete enough to run applications
17:10:53 <astrobe> This doesn't surprise me.
17:11:51 <astrobe> You know, it's 2am here and I don't feel like making further installations. Not a good hour for that.
18:18:48 --- join: segher (n=segher@dslb-084-056-159-001.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth
18:54:46 --- quit: astrobe ("leaving")
19:50:34 --- quit: tathi ("leaving")
19:54:17 <JasonWoof> how did tathi get it running then?
19:54:37 <JasonWoof> I didn't think sun had a working vm for ppc linux
19:54:54 <slava> ibm's jvm runs on linux/ppc
19:54:57 <slava> its based on the sun one
19:55:01 <slava> its not open source either
19:55:14 <slava> its basically the vanilla sun code, ported to linux/ppc and aix
19:55:16 <JasonWoof> oh
19:55:22 <slava> so it falls under "sun vm" :)
19:55:25 <JasonWoof> that explains it
19:55:30 <JasonWoof> I have the ibm one installed
19:55:32 <slava> java 1.6 has so many new useless apis
19:55:41 <slava> there's a javascript interpreter in the core, and about 382423 new xml packages
19:55:58 --- nick: tiff -> Raystm2
20:04:02 --- join: rsync (n=pavel@CPE000c41aac435-CM00111ae4f4cc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth
20:05:29 <JasonWoof> java has so many APIs it could serve as a waterhaven for migratory waterfowl
20:05:49 <slava> you'd be amazed how much redundancy there is
20:05:56 <slava> about 100 different growable array implementations
20:06:58 <rsync> everyone think he is a genius
20:07:39 <rsync> java class implementation for abs?
20:08:36 <rsync> idiotic if you tell me: num < 0 ? -num : num
20:08:48 <rsync> Math.abs(foo)?
20:09:07 <slava> what's wrong with that?
20:09:14 <slava> in forth you'd make an abs word too, no point writing the branch every time
20:09:45 <rsync> i think Math is redundant though
20:10:14 <slava> smalltalk does OOP better; you call the abs method on an integer object
20:10:19 <slava> -5 abs ==> 5
20:10:39 <rsync> or ruby for that matter
20:12:56 <rsync> ruby -5.abs
20:14:11 <slava> JasonWoof: what is your opinion on abbreviating forth word names?
20:14:22 <rsync> forth is so hard
20:14:41 <slava> why do you find it hard?
20:15:18 <rsync> its sort of backwards, and it slips from my mind :) i can sort of grasp reverse polish notation....
20:17:58 <JasonWoof> slava: all things in moderation :)
20:18:36 <slava> rsync: its different, not hard
20:19:17 <slava> my first exposure to forth was when i was 13. i saw some value in it but it wasn't until 7 years later that i 'got' the forth philosophy and breaking a problem down into small words
20:19:31 <slava> and that was after watching several java code bases devolve into fragile unstable mess
20:20:46 <slava> and being hired to fix a couple that were already in that state :)
20:23:40 <rsync> well you know what most good coders say about java
20:23:51 <slava> there are plenty of good coders using java
20:24:04 <slava> doesn't mean the language is good, though
20:57:16 --- part: slava left #forth
21:52:49 --- join: swalters (n=swalters@6532183hfc82.tampabay.res.rr.com) joined #forth
22:12:15 <rsync> canadian!
22:12:19 <rsync> nice.
22:17:56 --- quit: sproingie (Remote closed the connection)
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/05.12.16