00:00:00 --- log: started forth/05.11.27 00:00:17 He once said, looking at a board, he can predict if something is wrong or not about the board. 00:01:00 Wow 00:01:28 it was an interesting story. how to set curves, round corners on the circuit print, etc. 00:02:10 Our lab mostly did analog stuff, they were experimenting with radiation-hard designs 00:02:23 I'm not too well-versed in it as I'm a programmer and not an engineer = ) 00:02:57 as things are becomming smaller and smaller, 00:03:27 there are quantum physical issues. 00:03:38 I heard from the engineer. 00:03:55 hardware logic is a difficult thing, I think. 00:04:38 Yes, very 00:05:19 he often says "Digital computing is an electric phoenoenon". 00:05:54 "Software engineers tend to forget it, and make problems", he adds. 00:06:49 Yeah 00:08:28 He likes to demonstrate how many tubes are used to make a color TV set, by using his fingers. 00:09:01 "... so about 23 or 24, in total", counting the number by fingers. 00:09:25 hehe 00:10:13 he wants to say that digital circuits are also working as analog phenomena and in an analog electric environment". 00:11:05 Actually, they talk about that all the time in the lab I worked in 00:11:23 He always put emphasis on the necessity of digital circuit designers' studying analog electronics. 00:11:28 Since radiation effects are really in the analog domain, though the chip may have digital logic 00:11:41 Yep, the leader of the group said the same thing 00:12:14 but he always lament, 00:13:14 "in these days, the principle is forgotten by engineers of younger generations". 00:13:38 yeah, I think that's probably true 00:13:54 what is conceptually possible is not always possible in reality. 00:14:01 good analog engineers can make a lot of money these days, since there are fewer around 00:14:07 nyingen: yesterday you asked if anyone has done anything with colorforth. I have. 00:14:29 Raystm2: I'm glad to hear that, 'cause I could really use some help = ) 00:14:57 I'll do my best. What are you working on? 00:15:16 Well, I just started the day before yesterday, so mostly I'm just figuring out how to use the system 00:15:31 * akebono is away: å¤å¿ã§ã 00:15:35 I defined a test word, but couldn't get it to actually run 00:15:43 I see. 00:15:48 If I typed 'test' at the prompt, I just got 'test?' 00:15:50 BUT 00:16:05 :) 00:16:05 I was combing the mailing list today, and perhaps I need to load the block number first? 00:16:09 is that the problem? 00:16:44 You defined "test" on a block? tried to execute it? and it did not run, yes? 00:16:49 right 00:16:57 yes you must load the block 00:17:02 ok 00:17:09 can I use any empty block, or just 72+ 00:17:24 any even shadow. 00:17:28 gotcha 00:17:34 suppose there's an error in my code? 00:17:45 maybe so. 00:17:58 ah, what I mean is, how does colorforth tell me if the problem is me? 00:18:17 You are always the problem, with colorforth. 00:18:29 hehe 00:18:37 colorforth is so very simple. 00:18:54 Yeah, that's why I'm interested in it actually = ) 00:19:02 Me too. :) 00:19:31 I was looking at code to print strings and such, and it seemed like it used mostly hex representations of the chars 00:19:38 is that true? 00:19:40 I'm not working on my website http://www.colorforth.info cuz i'm lazy :( 00:19:54 heh, just read all that yesterday 00:20:20 really wanted to be able to click 'faq' 00:20:32 Ya, coming soon. 00:20:39 Neat. 00:20:42 I am working on it. 00:21:02 It's taking me to a new level of research that I wasn't prepared for when I started the site. 00:21:09 I'll believe it 00:21:19 I bought a bunch of books, and have been reading them. 00:21:35 I guess you saw the ChuckBot stuff at the site? 00:21:39 I know x86 assembly pretty well, but nonetheless, actually reading COLOR.ASM just doesn't strike me as fun 00:21:44 yeah, a little 00:22:13 hehe about the fun. 00:22:33 For me, it gets fun when taken in context with learning the parts of the system. 00:22:47 I like to go to Karig, to read the source. 00:22:50 which books are you looking at? 00:22:57 Oh um... 00:23:10 I bought 00:23:25 Dr Dobb's Toolbook of Forth 00:23:43 Forth Fundamentals vol 2 the glossary. 00:23:58 Threaded Interpretive Languages 00:24:05 Starting Forth 00:24:12 I've got that one 00:24:13 Object oriented forth 00:24:19 That one too, neat book! 00:24:20 Forth Applications. 00:24:31 Yes, I have to agree. 00:25:01 I checked out pretty much every Forth book from the local university library 00:25:11 too bad for anyone else who wants to learn forth, because I have em all = ) 00:25:12 I also got 3 volumes of the The Art of Computer Programing by Knuth. 00:25:24 AHhaha 00:25:41 I couldn't find a single forth book at my library. 00:25:47 that sucks 00:25:59 Some of the ones I found were for Commodore 64 and such 00:26:03 a bit out of date. 00:26:13 Ya old stuff. 00:26:39 Anyway, any advice on doing strings in colorforth? 00:26:53 I haven't tried yet, just want to know how to go about it 00:27:08 Strings have been done in many ways in colorforth. 00:27:50 As an example, there is that old "Hello, World!" page in the forth wiki under colorforth. 00:27:54 have you seen it? 00:28:02 I think so, let me find it again 00:28:03 there are also other way. 00:28:37 like the way that Howard Oakford does his strings for his editor and also for his html work. 00:29:25 ok, so we mostly use huffman numbers? 00:29:45 didn't see oakford's stuff btw, where is it? 00:29:56 I expect that it's easier to do that in programs that are not too string intensive. 00:30:19 You may have a few lables, or small messages, and thats an easy way to do it. 00:30:24 ok 00:30:46 okay Oakfords stuff, give a sec... 00:33:11 http://www.inventio.co.uk/cfdos.htm 00:33:30 are you windows or *nix? 00:34:47 *nix. 00:35:11 but I have a dos machine or two around 00:35:27 this will not work for you, sorry, but the code maybe available to you to see. 00:35:37 ok cool about the machines around. 00:36:10 Thanks for the link 00:36:23 this is good stuff. 00:36:24 my pleasure. 00:36:37 He has some code for the PC speaker, something I wanted to try 00:36:54 ya, sounds neat and you can play with it. 00:37:13 brb 00:40:11 back 00:40:54 I wil definitely be trying that out, looks very useful 00:41:14 I hope you can work more on your colorforth.info site soon, as I think we need a good central place for colorforth information 00:41:31 Yes, I agree. 00:41:36 I searched a lot last night and still didin't find Howerd's stuff 00:41:38 with both statements 00:41:44 I see. 00:42:03 Did you find Tim Nietz's archive? 00:42:10 hm, I don't think so 00:42:26 finding. 00:42:31 Thanks. 00:42:50 actually, I only ever enter Tim's name in a google search :) 00:43:13 http://www.dnd.utwente.nl/~tim/colorforth/ 00:44:51 cool 00:45:08 my google skillz must be getting rusty. 00:45:40 It is hard to gauge though, because coloforth is pretty obscure I think 00:46:05 Yes. 00:46:24 It's hard to find active people. 00:46:36 The mailinglist is slow. 00:46:41 It goes in spurts. 00:46:43 Yeah, seems that way 00:47:02 Many of the main players, come and go. 00:47:48 But what I think has things slow now, is that CM has been talking about a new and improved colorforth. 00:48:03 I beleive this has caused a "wait state" in the community. 00:48:17 hmm 00:48:39 I was hoping to hear more from SVFIG by now. 00:48:59 yeah 00:49:03 I must remember to look at the comp.lang.forth 00:49:11 Do they talk about colorforth on there? 00:49:26 some. 00:49:32 interesting 00:49:36 I may check that out as well. 00:49:42 I certainly annouce what ever i'm involved in there. 00:50:00 Cool 00:50:34 Thanks for the tips, I really appreciate it 00:50:56 Tim Neitz has said that his next project will be to boot from the HDD. 00:51:01 Not a problem. 00:51:18 Look forward to discussing the finer points of colorforth with you in future. 00:51:43 Excellent. 00:51:47 Though I have a ways to go = ) 00:51:58 How did you find it, to begin with ? 00:52:06 Let me see... 00:52:18 I think I was looking at Forth on the C2 wiki 00:52:24 then found CM's site 00:52:30 Were you testing languages? 00:52:34 sort of 00:52:48 Have you done any lisp or scheme? 00:52:55 I had huge leeway in what lang to use for my next project, so I looked at all kinds of strange languages just to see what there was out there 00:53:00 A little 00:53:07 Lisp has huge problems talking to the OS, IMO 00:53:18 so I couldn't use it for my project 00:53:22 I see. 00:53:29 I like the language though 00:53:34 ya. 00:53:56 have you tried other forths besides colorforth? 00:54:01 Anyway I found out about Forth, and also when I first saw Forth code, I understood it because I've used RPL on the hp-48 calculator before 00:54:06 I played with gforth a little 00:54:10 just some tutorials actually. 00:54:20 cool. 00:54:26 I want to install qforth on my Apple II, but I don't have the right cable yet = ) 00:54:36 did you read "Starting Forth" ? 00:54:37 hehe 00:54:55 I read some of it, but it was a little slow for me I guess 00:55:04 You have an Apple][, I'm jealous. 00:55:05 I like to dive right in, so a couple other books I found were a little more interesting 00:55:13 Yeah, got it for $30 at a yard sale = ) 00:55:20 hahaha 00:55:25 that's great. 00:55:49 I also have an Atari ST = ) 00:55:59 I had on in my hands for a few weeks and never came up with the dough to buy it, so the guy took it back :( 00:56:00 one gets the feeling I like retro computer stuff... 00:56:16 Have you seen RetroForth yet? 00:56:21 Ah well...people get rid of those all the time, sometimes not knowing how much they're worth 00:56:24 No, what is it? 00:56:47 By crc; ( see his name at the top of the name list) 00:57:12 (holy shit, someone implemented tftpd in colorforth??) 00:57:19 yes. 00:57:28 that's excellent. 00:57:46 It is cool. 00:57:51 I have yet to use it... 00:58:27 oh hey, I nearly forgot... 00:58:39 We have a couple chats of our own. 00:59:13 They are, #c4th which is publically logged, I'll get you the link in a minute. 00:59:19 and #c4th-ot 00:59:28 Neat 00:59:34 the off-topic channel where eveything goes. 00:59:41 gotcha. 00:59:56 we tend to be pretty on topic at #c4th 01:00:05 the log is here... 01:00:48 http://jasonwoof.org/colorforth_channel_logs 01:01:01 there are many days with out content. 01:01:24 I imagine so, the colorforth community is still pretty small I think 01:01:32 you have to serf thru them to get to content, until i do some linking to my site with relevent linking. 01:01:44 brb 01:02:05 --- join: snoopy_1611 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-164-126.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 01:09:48 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 01:10:05 --- nick: snoopy_1611 -> Snoopy42 01:13:45 --- quit: akebono ("Leaving") 01:14:23 back 01:17:15 I just started looking into Forth, read some tutorials and went through parts of a few online books. From what I've read, it seems that Forth is a "high level language" used for "low level tasks" mainly. Is that a correct assumption? For example, I see no real application programming in Forth. 01:19:01 It is that, indeed, and it is the application as well. 01:19:33 Forth is the interpreter/compiler/os/language/application, is how i understand it. 01:19:50 colorforth would add editor to that. 01:21:04 Well, I suppose a system that had Forth as an OS would more than likely be an embedded or specialized device of some sort. 01:22:30 Kindof reminds me of a closed-world prolog + assembler 01:23:50 ya. but forth can be the operating system in a very normal use. Business software, Design software, The only limit i know of is lack of good hardware documentation. 01:27:21 Do you know any examples of where it is used in such a context? Searching for examples using the word "forth" is kind of shabby. 01:29:31 http://home.iae.nl/users/mhx/sf0/sf0.html 01:29:50 3/4's down the page, A list of forth uses. 01:32:12 thanks 01:32:20 np 01:33:13 I assume it is companies, much like those listed, that make excellent candidates for applying for forth work. 01:34:53 Yeah, it seems like it has a very good niche. 01:35:40 I'm just doing language survey's, taking a look at unique features of languages. 01:36:01 Forth is definately unique among languages. 01:36:25 Currently, I have two or three favorite versions, always available. 01:36:37 Colorforth holds the most interest for me. 01:36:55 I've only downloaded gforth so far as it was easily installable on my OS. 01:37:32 Yes, that's a good one. it's easy to use and quickly available. Lots of documentation with it. 01:39:47 I found that the documentation on gforth page kind of walked off the deep end quickly. I found the language by reading "Thinking Forth", which I think is a pretty good book. I figured I'd better learn the language to really appreciate it all. So far "A Beginner's Guide to Forth" has been the mostly helpful for me. 01:40:33 Are you a professional Forth programmer? 01:40:43 No, Hobbyiest. 01:40:54 Not even a programmer by profession. 01:41:10 I sell Caster Wheels and Carts and Dollies and the like :) 01:41:22 real low tech job :) 01:41:51 Wow, now there's definately "two of you". 01:42:19 I don't understand? 01:42:39 Heh, just the big difference between day job and night fun :) 01:42:46 Oh yeah. 01:43:09 I own a small software development company, but lately I've been wishing I was back in school working on a PHD. 01:43:21 :) 01:43:22 cool. 01:43:30 I'd love to be educated. 01:43:36 I'm just working on a thesis...for fun I guess. Who knows, I might even submit it to some people. 01:44:11 I didn't go to a very good college for computer science, but I got my rice paper. Just learning new stuff is pretty much my hobby. 01:44:45 Yeah, learning new stuff is a fun hobby, indeed. 01:44:57 Whats the research about? 01:45:45 Well, my thesis I'm working on is really about "applied computer science". Basically applying the knowledge and theories of formal computer science and mathematics with application-level programming. 01:46:17 Err, I mean to be simplier...Taking things like languages from LISP and Haskell and applying them to your typical Java,C++ programmer 01:47:07 --- join: richard_ (n=richard@adsl-69-155-177-154.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net) joined #forth 01:47:09 You know, concepts and axioms and figuring out a way to let programmers easily use the concepts and get the payoff..but not be so academic that it takes a 130 IQ just to understand how to write the code. 01:47:23 hehe 01:47:25 ya 01:47:38 --- quit: snowrichard (Nick collision from services.) 01:47:44 --- nick: richard_ -> snowrichard 01:47:45 well, that's over my head, but i bet it's a facinating read. 01:47:50 --- join: richard_ (n=richard@adsl-69-155-177-154.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net) joined #forth 01:48:19 specifically right now I'm working on applying functors and referential transparency to traditional object-oriented programming. 01:48:39 but I'm a huge fan of bottom-up programming so that's why I'm looking at Forth. 01:49:09 Have you written any forth yet? 01:49:40 Well, I've went through some tutorials and playing with it. 01:49:53 I'm having problems with strings. Doesn't seem to be much support for them. 01:49:56 --- quit: richard_ (Client Quit) 01:50:20 I don't really understand why I can't just put a string on the stack. Maybe you can, but I haven't found out anything yet that tells me how to do it. 01:50:48 In gforth? 01:50:55 Yeah 01:51:05 okay give a sec please :) 01:51:13 I found things like [char] and char and emit, but that's about it. 01:51:48 have you found type yet? 01:52:13 I saw it..but didn't spend any time on it. 01:52:16 let me see 01:52:57 : this ( -- ) s" that " type ; 01:53:00 this that ok 01:53:29 ." this " this ok / as well 01:53:59 mm, my gforth is saying type is undefined word 01:54:16 how are you executing gforth on the commandline? 01:54:58 $ gforth 01:55:24 will this work for you? $ gforth-fast 01:55:54 yep 01:56:10 does type work in gforth-fast? 01:56:30 sure does. 01:56:32 Hmm, why is that? 01:56:39 I don't remember what the difference between gforth and gforth-fast is, but there is one :) 01:56:40 gforth-fast have "extensions"? 01:56:48 Yes, must be so. 01:58:12 Oh, it's my fault. I didn't put a space before the semicolon 01:58:25 cool 01:58:29 good eye. 01:58:49 It looks like "type" prints out the name of the word 01:59:07 that it is compiled in 01:59:32 type prints whatever is between the s" and the delimiter " . 01:59:56 --- quit: snowrichard ("Leaving") 02:01:06 So it's like ." ? 02:01:23 Yes. similar. 02:02:07 Gforth tries to be ANS compatable, so the ANS is something to have handy to look up how to use the basic words provided. 02:03:22 file:///c:/Program%20Files/gforth/doc/gforth/Displaying-characters-and-strings.html#Displaying%20characters%20and%20strings 02:03:31 from gforth manual 02:03:38 yikes thats a local link :) 02:04:12 should be in your folder in gforth after where it says gforth above. 02:04:30 Hmm, just found this thing: http://www.tinyboot.com/ANS/quick.htm 02:05:04 good find, thanks :) 02:05:17 Hmm, looks like I'd have to download gforth from their website to get that doc, doesn't seem to be on my computer. 02:06:00 oh sorry. 02:06:19 Good old terseness 02:06:31 lol 02:06:37 got to be online... 02:06:59 Parse ccc delimited by " (double-quote). Append the run-time semantics given below to the current definition. 02:07:00 Return c-addr and u describing a string consisting of the characters ccc. A program shall not alter the returned string. 02:07:04 Makes perfect sense... 02:08:47 I think this is the online version of that file you put up: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/gforth/Docs-html/Displaying-characters-and-strings.html 02:08:48 --- join: virl (n=hmpf@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at) joined #forth 02:08:51 http://www.delorie.com/gnu/docs/gforth/ there is this. 02:09:06 yes thats it; 02:11:11 So I'm thinking that if I want to do work with strings, I use the stack to store the string character-by-character which really stores the ASCII values on the stack? 02:11:31 I have used that approach. 02:12:09 You can also use the pad. 02:12:36 pad? 02:13:34 I don't have a lot of experiance with pad yet. 02:14:00 Err, what is it? 02:14:23 its a memory location, a range from an adress, dedicated for working on strings and parsing text, or so i believe. 02:15:22 Ah, makes sense. 02:15:30 Like an array/ 02:15:32 ? 02:15:38 yes 02:16:40 http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/gforth/Docs-html/Input.html#Input 02:17:18 pad is most of the way down the page. 02:25:32 Hmm 02:26:50 I'm just trying to uppercase an "n" here with that n stored on the stack without knowing the ASCII value. I got s" n" that puts the memory address and length in the stack. Now if I could just swap the memory address with the value that is stored in it then toupper and emit would work. 02:27:38 sounds right to me. 02:28:45 I suppose I could use a LOOP to iterate the length on the stack to uppercase an entire string. I haven't done stuff this low level in a long, long time. 02:34:29 Sure you have. You do in every language. In this case, you are the compiler of the application. You will write just the code that converts your compiler into a specific problem solving application. 02:37:04 Remembers this being funner in CLISP :) 02:37:18 :) 02:38:04 Well, forth does make an excellent HP calculator. 02:39:22 I agree. 02:39:36 I'm reading the gforth manua. 02:39:39 Just like "dc" 02:39:41 +l 02:40:32 as in "ac vs dc" ? 02:41:01 There's a program on unix called "dc" that is a RPN calculator 02:41:18 okay, didn't know that one :) 02:41:30 $ dc 02:41:30 10 02:41:30 3 02:41:30 4 02:41:30 * 02:41:31 - 02:41:33 p 02:41:35 -2 02:41:37 bah 02:41:39 sorry 02:41:41 hehe 02:42:51 I've played around alot with colorforth. I actually find forth harder to use. 02:43:18 http://www.hmug.org/man/1/dc.php It's like forth syntax but it's not extensible or anything. It's just a calculator 02:44:09 Hmm, do you have to run colorforth on it's own dedicated device or is there any easy way to run it in a virtual machine? 02:45:36 I do think it's interesting in forth how you can use "see" on the built-in operators and it shows the assembler 02:45:56 like "see +" 02:47:18 yeah, see was appreciated the first time i used it as well. 02:47:30 colorforth exsists in several versions. 02:47:49 there is a *nix version called xcolorforth. 02:48:07 there is at least one windows version. 02:48:22 I have some heartburn and I've heard that vinegar is supposed to help it. I just took a teaspoon of vinegar....I don't know if it's helping or not. I feel kind of funny. 02:48:23 there are several that are native standalone operating systems. 02:48:44 yikes! hope your okay? 02:49:16 For a second I thought that it did fix the heartburn...now I just kind have this rumble-action going on. Heh, I think I'll be alright...I think I should eat something. 02:49:34 hehe 02:49:54 I'm checking out this xcolorforth 02:50:43 Now that's a small amount of code. 02:50:58 oh yeah? 02:52:58 Yeah, 160K com file 02:53:24 yeah thats about right. 02:53:35 does it start on your system? 02:54:25 macr0: heartburn? Mix 1/2 tsp baking soda into water and drink that 02:54:29 Yeah, it started. I had no idea how to use it. It wouldn't close properly. I had to SIG9 it to make it stop. 02:54:34 --- quit: swa_ters_ (Connection timed out) 02:54:41 Ohh no, more home remedies. 02:54:46 macr0: nah, this is science 02:54:50 you need base, not acid 02:55:16 react away some of that excess hydrochloric acid with bicarbonate ion = ) 02:55:20 I need a lab mouse to feed some hot sauce to and do imperical studies first. 02:55:29 hehe 02:55:43 actually though, this 'recipe' is usually printed on the baking soda box 02:56:06 and just my luck, I have no baking soda 02:56:13 too bad. 02:56:15 macr0: when it started, did you see 3 colored boxes and the word colorforth in green and red? 02:56:40 macr0: btw, if the problem is eating too much hot sauce, have some ice cream or something and you'll be much happier. ; ) 02:57:11 Raystm2: Sure did, and when I hit a key some yellow text in the bottom right flops around. 02:57:21 :) 02:57:25 yes indeed. 02:57:27 nyingen: I think it was from eating some leftover pecan pie from turkey day 02:57:52 macr0: that'll do it too. better look more for the baking soda ;p 02:57:54 that yellow text is the diplayed representation of your currently available keyboard. 02:58:13 displayed even. 02:58:33 nyingen: Oh yeah, and before the pecan pie I had schezuan chicken. A great combo 02:58:43 to view the colorforth portion of the environment you need to turn on the editor. 02:59:11 How do I turn on the editor? I hot some keys and some letters come up at the bottom. 02:59:26 s/hot/hit 02:59:30 after booting, hit 'e' on your keyboard where it is displayed on the screen. 02:59:58 Better quesiton, how do I turn this thing off properly? lol. 03:00:03 this will most likely be the literal 'd' key on your keyboard if memory serves 03:00:08 hehe 03:00:12 um 03:00:13 haha, I forgot about the dvorak keyboard 03:00:28 I've been using dvorak for years, so I didn't even realize it at first = ) 03:00:32 you can try bye 03:00:38 mark may have coded that in. 03:00:47