00:00:00 --- log: started forth/05.11.26 01:08:36 --- join: Snoopy42 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-157-098.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 01:08:38 --- join: snoopy_1711 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-157-098.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 01:42:12 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Nick collision from services.) 01:42:18 --- nick: snoopy_1711 -> Snoopy42 01:42:30 --- join: snoopy_1711 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-157-098.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 01:42:37 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Nick collision from services.) 01:42:39 --- nick: snoopy_1711 -> Snoopy42 01:42:47 --- join: snoopy_1611 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-157-098.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 02:27:59 --- join: aum (n=aum@60-234-156-82.bitstream.orcon.net.nz) joined #forth 03:30:39 --- join: virl (n=hmpf@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at) joined #forth 03:33:42 --- quit: aum () 03:33:58 I'm back... 03:36:10 --- join: nyingen (n=jeeves@216-39-182-234.ip.theriver.com) joined #forth 03:40:31 and I'm using 8bit for cells at the moment, because 1) the stack can be more memory friendly implemented on 8bit cpus 2) it somehows fits for me better to the concept of bytecode, knows the hell why. 3) 8 bit are the smallest widely used unit on computers, so it's easier to build with it datastructures than with only 16 bit, if you don't want to waste memory in the case of work with a theoretically memory limited system. 03:44:50 anyone here done anything with colorforth? 03:52:44 --- join: akebono (i=fujiwara@218.231.206.36.eo.eaccess.ne.jp) joined #forth 03:52:45 Quote: Let us live for the beauty of our own reality. -- Charles Lamb 04:23:30 --- join: akebono2 (i=fujiwara@218.231.206.36.eo.eaccess.ne.jp) joined #forth 04:23:36 Quote: Let us live for the beauty of our own reality. -- Charles Lamb 04:33:58 ny 04:34:10 nyingen : I have done things with colorforth. 04:40:35 --- quit: akebono (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 04:41:31 --- quit: akebono2 ("Leaving") 04:58:28 --- quit: swalters_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 05:05:49 --- join: swalters_ (n=swalters@6532183hfc82.tampabay.res.rr.com) joined #forth 05:55:04 --- quit: swalters_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 05:55:07 --- join: swa_ters_ (n=swalters@6532183hfc82.tampabay.res.rr.com) joined #forth 05:56:30 --- join: thinkinginbinary (n=tom@pool-68-163-203-96.bos.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 05:57:40 Quartus: what does M* do? 06:07:55 Mixed-precision multiplication. 06:08:40 Multiplies two single cells to produce a double-cell result. 06:08:57 I'll be here only intermittently for a bit. 06:12:05 --- join: thinking1nbinary (n=tom@pool-68-163-229-26.bos.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 06:28:04 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pete@0-1pool75-225.nas24.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 06:28:49 --- quit: thinkinginbinary (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 06:39:34 --- join: FiLa (i=LNIX@12-208-98-237.client.insightBB.com) joined #forth 06:49:29 --- nick: thinking1nbinary -> thinkinginbinary 06:52:33 hello! 06:53:29 howdy 06:53:45 PoppaVic: 71% done with CORE, things are going well. 06:53:54 good 06:54:23 PoppaVic: yeah, I should work on the UI for a little... 06:54:57 PoppaVic: I might actually implement BLOCKS instead of files because they would map well to the phone's "record management system" 06:55:20 iirc, the block interface is still required, isn't it? 06:55:35 ..or did they finally make that an option? 06:55:48 PoppaVic: nope, it's in the optional BLOCK wordset 06:56:03 PoppaVic: section 7 06:57:22 I'm considering my options here... I'm beginning to think I need an IF word for the stupid datafile. Or (basically) good ol ... ? ... : ... 06:57:32 PoppaVic: ? : is good 06:57:45 too difficult to merge into current design 06:57:54 PoppaVic: well ? : isn't forthish really 06:58:24 PoppaVic: you could do conditional subroutine calls, like IF FOO, and then it calls FOO. Then you don't have to parse THEN and ELSE. 06:58:29 it'd be of the form $FX[if] (expression) then (expression) else (expression) ) 06:58:48 PoppaVic: what's $FX? 06:58:50 nono.. this is just the datafile for the intel-gathering phase 06:59:03 it's the "section" where functions would live 06:59:30 I may end up abandoning that "feature" 07:00:35 PoppaVic: how do you edit text in a block? an editor? 07:00:37 However, it sure helps to clue you that "this is not a string" 07:00:58 yes, you'd include a really shitty editor and add an optional block-editor 07:01:08 It's prolly listed in dpans 07:01:36 PoppaVic: it mentions "SCR", which keeps track of the last LISTed block, suggesting that other routines would edit the block using that variable to know which one it is 07:01:55 PoppaVic: ah, it's in PROGRAMMING-TOOLS. 07:01:55 yeah.. THe lack of a nice block-editor is horrid 07:02:07 Frankly, I hated blocks 07:02:27 PoppaVic: I'm thinking I will make the block editor a native call that opens the text in a text box on the phone. It's better than writing my own editor. 07:02:37 PoppaVic: that would be much nicer. 07:02:40 whomsoever, dude 07:02:43 PoppaVic: lol 07:02:56 PoppaVic: I mean why write a shitty editor when you can create a real textbox with a few lines of code? 07:03:45 PoppaVic: do you know the internals of MARKER? 07:03:58 as in forget and friends? 07:04:07 it varies all over 07:04:11 PoppaVic: no, just MARKER. does it erase code, or just defs? 07:04:33 PoppaVic: because my code and data will be fragmented (combined data space) 07:04:38 as I said - it varies all over. It's a really sloppy/flakey system. 07:05:04 PoppaVic: well I can do it easily, but it will have memory "leaks". 07:05:12 PoppaVic: not worth the trouble 07:05:27 it can cause issues, particularly if you use DEFER. 07:05:31 PoppaVic: is there a software "reset button" in FORTH that will clear everything, data, code, dictionary, etc...? 07:05:47 maybe restart 07:06:08 Personally, I find it easiest to ^X and then rerun 07:06:17 er, ^C even 07:06:35 PoppaVic: yeah but my phone doesn't have a control key ;-) 07:06:50 PoppaVic: I like blocks, they will be the perfect system for my phone. 07:07:08 PoppaVic: I might do files too (it's got a file API, I dunno if unsigned code can access it) 07:07:37 PoppaVic: (don't get me started on code signing... there's a pile of features I can't write MY OWN CODE to access on MY OWN PHONE without paying SOME STUPID COMPANY to SIGN my FREAKING CODE!) 07:07:59 PoppaVic: (including such mundane stuff as NON-HTTP NETWORKING! I want Gopher!) 07:08:30 PoppaVic: 07:08:46 good, I'm going blind 07:08:51 PoppaVic: lol 07:09:30 PoppaVic: are there primitive functions to convert single digits from text to numbers and back? (ans doesn't specify them, but I assume there's a traditional name?) 07:09:48 sure there are.. look int <# # #> 07:09:59 into (and add HOLD) 07:10:27 I prefer printf, but I'm a curmudgeon. 07:10:28 PoppaVic: okay 07:10:34 PoppaVic: your forth has printf? 07:10:37 PoppaVic: that's a good idea 07:10:47 prolly does - I was thinking C ;-) 07:10:52 PoppaVic: lol 07:11:15 PoppaVic: in Java it's probably a 30M "Sun Java Locale-Specific Enterprise Number Processing and Formatting SDK" ;-) 07:11:21 Some of the guys here are very comfortable with <# and friend. 07:12:17 PoppaVic: is there a minimum requirement for the buffer size of WORD? 07:12:38 hmm.. I got a baad feeling that adding if/then/else would be a logistics nightmare. 07:12:44 check dpans 07:12:48 PoppaVic: is this a standard compiled forth? 07:12:59 what 'this'? 07:13:04 no. 07:13:07 wait a sec.. 07:13:09 PoppaVic: the thing you're working on. 07:13:24 brb 07:13:40 http://rafb.net/paste/results/LczqcR72.html 07:13:40 see url 07:18:25 there, now my cpu fan is cleaner 07:20:42 see above url 07:20:46 ok 07:23:14 PoppaVic: looks interesting 07:23:40 Yeah.. Folks bitched about the old format, so.. This is like the 3rd attempt. 07:23:45 PoppaVic: lol 07:24:10 THe overriding concern isthe KISS Principle. 07:24:13 PoppaVic: i don't think any autotools-type thing will ever please even 50% of the people, since it has to be pretty intuitive for people to like it 07:24:29 PoppaVic: like I find autotools absurd, it's waaaay too many tacked-on steps 07:24:45 Yeah, and using at 3 semantic systems 07:24:49 at least 07:25:03 PoppaVic: i mean they're all well-defined, and serve a separate purpose, but, yeah, it's 3 things to learn 07:25:13 PoppaVic: most of my programs are ant-powered 07:25:36 PoppaVic: ant is nice, it's an [/me ducks] XML-based build system for [/me runs for the door] Java. 07:25:43 I plan to use 1 datafile form. And there will be a systemwide, groupwide, user-possible, and build-specific form 07:25:49 PoppaVic: it's overengineered, as are XML and Java, but it pairs well with JAva. 07:26:19 ..Then, Metabuilder itself will be a forth-like pseudo-shell with similarities to Make 07:26:30 PoppaVic: cool 07:26:56 1 for of datafile; 1 form and REQUIRED platform for the build. Anything else is an option I'd discourage. 07:27:05 for of/form of 07:29:47 Of course, the questions become: What should the systemic datafile manage? And, what do - should we - allow group/user/app programs to "override" (if anything). 07:30:21 PoppaVic: that would *ROCK*! 07:30:22 I've always been extremely irked with every distro because of related issues. 07:30:35 PoppaVic: If I could globally set in /etc/thingy.conf where I want my programs installed! 07:30:42 sure. 07:30:47 ANd it SHOULD work that way 07:30:48 PoppaVic: and then in ~/.thingy.conf, set ~/bin for my own programs 07:30:53 PoppaVic: this is AWESOME! 07:30:53 yep 07:31:35 I've been trying to write it such that we require minimal human-input for configuring. I may have to admit that the human needs a couple clues. 07:32:16 For example: "is this an ELF machine, or are we use Mach-o and their special libs?" 07:32:39 PoppaVic: run `file' on some random (e.g. gcc) binary. 07:32:42 Perhaps breaking out the questions further 07:32:46 PoppaVic: unless it's going to be used from cross-compiling. 07:33:09 yes, see the url ;-) I do use 'file' - which is not necessarily installed. 07:33:13 PoppaVic: oh ok 07:33:18 PoppaVic: sorry, wasn't paying attention :-\ 07:33:26 and, remember: POSIX is weird anyway 07:33:49 Yes.. I would absolutely LOVE thinking of HOST and TARGET stuff. 07:34:03 PoppaVic: yeah, have you ever read the man pages for POSIX stuff? they're not man pages, they're specs. it's hideous 07:34:32 Perhaps... hmm Perhaps we can systemic-install the HOST file, and allow folks to generate TARGET... 07:34:49 PoppaVic: Assume the HOST is the TARGET, and allow specifying another file if it's different 07:34:53 Yes, there are several POSIX stds - and everyone supports bits and pieces 07:34:56 PoppaVic: you don't wanna complicate things for regular compilation 07:35:04 right, that was my point 07:35:09 PoppaVic: oh sorry 07:35:17 the Systemic file wouldbe "that host" 07:35:19 --- join: akebono (i=fujiwara@218.231.206.36.eo.eaccess.ne.jp) joined #forth 07:35:19 Quote: A book worth reading is worth buying. -- John Ruskin 07:35:21 hi 07:35:33 ..but, damn - defining for a TARGET would be nice. 07:36:04 akebono: A book that costs more than a case of beer is getting goddamned prices -- PoppaVic 07:36:12 prices/pricey 07:37:18 Rusking could afford to buy any expensive books. 07:37:26 prolly 07:37:27 Ruskin 07:37:49 Buy used, and give away or sell-cheap - any you can't use regular 07:38:08 As a novice, can I make another naive question on forth? 07:38:31 it's a very simple question on ALLOT 07:38:31 I used to donate to the library.. Nowadays, I'd burn it: the fuckers threw out the 5 early years of Byte I gave them. 07:38:36 ask 07:38:51 What does allot really do? 07:39:00 does it just updated the dictionary pointer? 07:39:01 it advances the dict-space ptr 07:39:16 basically - it's a half-assed method of doing malloc() 07:39:50 so, we can rely on the address we get from 07:39:57 here, 07:40:06 "here" ? 07:40:10 "HERE" 07:40:16 yes, that system is typical - yes. 07:40:33 I never really liked it, but - they use it 07:40:34 until the next ALLOT is called. 07:40:54 or they comma something, or build a header, or - whatever 07:41:16 so, if you copy a char string 07:41:31 you damn well better be in the buffer 07:41:33 from a pad temporary space to a variable length memory area, 07:41:48 yeah 07:41:59 first use HERE, to find the last position 07:42:12 akebono: try it 07:42:41 and cmove the pad contents to the address, then use ALLOT by the number of bytes to update the pointer. 07:42:47 worst that happens is a crash and burn while testing 07:42:55 nonono! 07:42:59 you'd allot first 07:43:04 --- join: reuben (n=ben@leb-cr1-220-16.peak.org) joined #forth 07:43:05 --- quit: FiLa (Remote closed the connection) 07:43:19 you can almost never be sure how a system piddles all over the memory 07:43:34 I installed forthos (derived from eforth), and now I would like to display the stack. How do I do that? 07:43:45 try .s 07:44:02 .s that doesn't look right.. i had just put 3 numbers on the stack 07:44:49 1 2 3 .s cr <3> 1 2 3 07:44:49 ok 07:45:12 perhaps forthos is defective 07:46:35 but how can one dynamically allocate a memory by using allot? 07:47:10 you'd use alloc or some such 07:47:12 Once allot is called, the dictionary pointer is incremented. 07:47:31 ah, 07:47:34 alloc. 07:47:51 in the forth tutorial i am reading, it says to show a stack with .S 07:47:55 but forthos does not know that word 07:47:57 as a rule, forths are as fucked up as POSIX - so, (like POSIX), DPANS becomes sorta' a std 07:48:50 generally, I use gforth. PFE is sorta' interesting, and FICL meshes well with C 07:49:14 Since I mostly tinker, I use gcc and run gforth as needed. 07:49:20 i am eventually hoping to get forth running on a z80, but i want to play with it on my PC first to get a feel for it 07:49:37 well, trust me: there are a ton of Z80 forths 07:49:38 play with it as an OS, I mean 07:49:47 it will never be an OS 07:50:23 in the Days Of Old, sure - Forth thought it was the OS - it wasn't. 07:51:10 PoppaVic: color forth's an OS 07:51:16 bah 07:51:25 PoppaVic: ...humbug 07:51:56 If it were, it'd be able to play with perl, sh, m4, gcc, modula, libs, shared-libs, plugins, objectfiles, etc 07:52:21 an OS is one complex mofo 07:52:32 ..made up of a LOT of complex lil' mofo 07:52:48 years ago i made a 400k linux kernel, hacked up my own little C library, and hacked up bzip2 to sit behind file operations, and made a little book reader, and made a 1.44mb floppy that would boot up and let one read the bible 07:52:57 it was a fun little project, but 400k seems a little overkill 07:53:06 a friend of mine wants to make a roguelike on the ti86 07:53:33 so basicall i am looking into forth to lose some weight 07:53:38 People in hell want icewater, too 07:53:38 y 07:53:55 Forth is really, really handy 07:54:02 ..an OS it ain't 07:54:14 i found an implementation of kermit written in forth 07:54:31 of course, it's ancient 07:54:32 forthos includes unix-like file utilities and a vi-like block editor 07:54:41 doesn't matter. 07:54:52 vi is not an OS (emacs may be ;-) 07:55:01 if i can have files, an editor, a terminal emulator, and file transfer over a serial port, then i am part way there 07:55:13 just piling a ton of utilities into a language does NOT make it an OS 07:55:41 in the strict definition of the term, an OS just provides facilities to run programs 07:55:51 "other programs" 07:55:56 such as kermit 07:56:02 * PoppaVic sighs 07:56:10 OK, well - good luck with that 07:56:27 did you drop your head down when you sighed? 08:10:34 PoppaVic: are number formats built backwards? from right to left? 08:10:44 What do you mean? 08:10:57 oh.. the <# stuff? 08:11:15 I think dpans documents it - I never liked it, as I said. 08:11:24 PoppaVic: # is supposed to "Divide the number by the number in BASE giving...the remainder n. Convert n to [a char] and add the...character to the *beginning* of the pictured numeric output string." 08:11:25 ..it's "per digit" 08:11:43 yeah, that sounds typically insane 08:11:56 PoppaVic: forth is postfix, why wouldn't formats be too? 08:12:04 PoppaVic: trying to do it forwards in a procedural way wouldn't work. 08:12:10 make sure you check on HOLD, too 08:12:12 PoppaVic: I mean how does it know what the first digit would be? 08:12:56 in C, I'd break out each digit/base and push or list them, then pop or run the list in reverse - but thats just me ;-> 08:13:03 PoppaVic: wait, if you start a <#, does the buffer from the last one get reused? 08:13:21 I'm not sure - as I said, I never liked the system. 08:13:45 see d.r 08:13:45 : d.r 08:13:45 >r tuck dabs <<# #s rot sign #> r> over - spaces type #>> ; ok 08:13:55 PoppaVic: what's <<# ? 08:14:08 see <<# 08:14:08 : <<# 08:14:08 holdend @ holdptr @ - hold holdptr @ holdend ! ; ok 08:14:26 Are you confused and irked yet? ;-) 08:14:26 PoppaVic: i don't mean "what is the code", i mean "what is it supposed to do?" 08:14:41 no idea, I told you: I hate the mess 08:14:47 PoppaVic: lol 08:14:51 PoppaVic: well mine will be simpler 08:14:53 I'd need to crank up the gforth info-file 08:15:04 PoppaVic: no need 08:15:30 yeah - it's a horrific mess, tomy mind. Some folks love it all 08:15:43 PoppaVic: is this right? : DIGIT>CHAR BASE @ MOD DUP 10 >= IF 65 + ELSE 48 + THEN ; 08:15:51 PoppaVic: well, i'm just aiming for CORE ;-) 08:16:05 no idea if right - no idea what'shappening 08:16:31 PoppaVic: it converts a number (e.g. 123) to the character representation of the last digit, in BASE (e.g., "3") 08:16:38 ok 08:16:54 remember, ASCII is mostly a promise ;-) 08:17:06 PoppaVic: my box and phone both use UTF-8 :-) 08:17:18 yer scaring me more and more 08:17:36 PoppaVic: hey, not my choice, Java uses UTF (8 and 16) 08:17:46 I do NOT want to know 08:17:47 PoppaVic: and I wanted to be able to see the characters in my Japanese spam. 08:17:51 PoppaVic: ;-) 08:17:51 eww 08:17:56 PoppaVic: ^^ funny 08:18:59 see # 08:18:59 : # 08:18:59 base @ ud/mod rot 9 over < 08:18:59 IF 7 + 08:18:59 THEN 08:19:00 48 + hold ; ok 08:19:26 Messy as hell 08:19:33 PoppaVic: yeah, mine was neater :-b 08:19:45 PoppaVic: and i could have done this: 08:20:46 PoppaVic: : # base @ mod 10 < if [char] 0 + else 10 - [char] A + then hold ; 08:21:20 PoppaVic: mine is very clear: take last digit (base @ mod), if < 10, use digit starting at "0" else subtract 10 and use digit starting at "A". 08:21:29 PoppaVic: but theirs is more efficient 08:21:35 I just dislike the mess 08:21:41 PoppaVic: yeah 08:23:02 Quartus: you around? 08:25:02 gforth 08:25:02 1234. .s 08:25:02 1234. .s <2> 1234 0 ok 08:25:02 <# #s #> .s <2> 116730 4 ok 08:25:02 type 1234 ok 08:25:31 I find that mess disgusting 08:25:47 i know next to nothing about forth.. does the ansi standard specify .s? 08:25:54 reuben: yes, it's in programming-tools 08:25:56 reuben: not core 08:26:19 PoppaVic: what's the s in #s stand for? 08:26:21 1234. cr <# # # # # #> cr .s 08:26:21 <2> 116730 4 ok 08:26:21 type 1234 ok 08:26:30 process the rest 08:26:47 PoppaVic: i know what it does, but why #s, why not #q, #n, #z, #x? 08:26:56 #s(tring) ? 08:27:01 PoppaVic: ok 08:27:14 It's a whore 08:27:18 PoppaVic: lol 08:27:26 i see, it is optional 08:27:36 ..and, it requires doubles 08:27:47 reuben: .S requires doubles? 08:27:55 PoppaVic: do you mean <# ... #> or .S? 08:27:55 the <# does 08:28:00 PoppaVic: it does? 08:28:03 yep 08:28:10 hence, the 1234. 08:28:18 PoppaVic: the . makes it a double? 08:28:24 yep 08:28:31 PoppaVic: is that "official"? 08:28:44 or, you can do 1234 s>d or some other silliness 08:28:48 http://www.taygeta.com/forth/dpans15.htm#15.6.1.0220 08:28:52 PoppaVic: that's not silly, it's clearer 08:28:59 not to me 08:29:15 reuben: yeah i know 08:31:42 what's the traditional way to implement the buffers used for PAD, WORD, and #>? 08:32:02 are they their own buffers, or the same buffer, or just stored after HERE? 08:32:50 In RetroForth, PAD is a floating buffer stored above HERE 08:32:53 ANS says that WORD and #> *may* overlap in memory 08:32:54 check (again) dpans. 08:33:02 crc: yeah, typical 08:33:27 crc: but ANS says WORD and #> can't use PAD... do they share a dedicated buffer? 08:33:30 I don't have the <# # #S #> words yet; but whenever I add them to the ans.forth module; they'll have a separate buffer 08:33:38 crc: do you have WORD? 08:33:47 Yes, but I call it PARSE 08:33:48 crc: you're allowed to share them. 08:33:55 it parses in the TIB 08:33:56 crc: so what is your PARSE called? 08:34:02 crc: oh 08:34:07 crc: so you have PARSE, not WORD. 08:34:08 My forth is not ANS compliant :) 08:34:12 crc: that's okay 08:34:32 I've always felt, for all it's simplicity, forth parsing/strings were ungodly. 08:34:47 PoppaVic: yeah, but what can you replace it with? 08:34:58 PoppaVic: putting strings on the stack would ruin the uniform cell size 08:35:10 not sure, but then - I am cogitating a "stack per type" thing 08:35:35 PoppaVic: (unless you kept them this way: ! d l r o w BL , o l l e H 13, with the length on top 08:35:39 PoppaVic: hmm, interesting 08:35:52 PoppaVic: but then your string stack would require a lot of manipulation 08:36:14 I've almost concluded that I really, really dislike mixed & unidentifiable datum on a single stack 08:36:46 thinkinginbinary: it might just be as simple as an ID-stack paralleling the datum 08:36:46 PoppaVic: part of that is what gives forth its amazing simplicity. 08:36:55 PoppaVic: ah, now that would be cool 08:37:10 PoppaVic: like { num, 0 }, { addr, 123 }, { string, 123, 6 }? 08:37:15 PoppaVic: so like types? 08:37:23 yes, simple is lovely. Simple and the inability to id/track interactively means I might as well compile. 08:37:55 or even just leave the dstack alone and add an idstack of {foo, bar, etc} 08:37:57 PoppaVic: i should add a debug option to my forth system that adds and checks magic numbers on all the internal structures put on the stack while compiling 08:38:11 well.. 08:38:12 PoppaVic: take a 32-bit system, use 16 bits for each 08:38:12 * PoppaVic sighs 08:38:20 PoppaVic: or 8 and 24, but that's harder 08:38:20 There are issues on the issues 08:38:46 ...this sorta' tracking is mostly of use for interactivity and precompile-testing 08:38:47 I assume a good way to implement <# ... #> would be to build the string down from the top of data memory? 08:39:01 PoppaVic: yeah, it would be optional, to speed things up. 08:39:23 ..once a working word/app runs, it's not much of an issue: just do yer job, yah know? 08:39:30 PoppaVic: yeah 08:39:54 PoppaVic: right, it would be only during compile 08:40:16 So, I sorta' think I'm leaning toward a variant of IDE for "interactive" and compiled/relocatable/etc for "this works, burn the bitch" 08:41:21 I get these weird feelings over the whole mess.. Terms like interpreter, preprocessor, compiler, fractal, object, lib, etc.. 08:42:01 And, I get so goDAMNED tired of folks talking speed and asm 08:43:10 I believe forthish is the key to "A better world", but getting there is painful. 08:44:36 oh yeah.. PoppaVic you should found a new religion 08:48:39 brb - lemme' recycle the isp... 08:48:41 --- quit: PoppaVic ("Pulls the pin...") 08:50:14 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pete@0-1pool75-96.nas24.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 08:50:19 PoppaVic: welcome back 08:50:28 Tanks 08:50:28 PoppaVic: what ISP do you use anyway, that you have to reconnect so often? 08:50:29 --- quit: akebono (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 08:50:46 all my ISP's recycle at about 3 hours 08:50:51 PoppaVic: dialup? 08:51:00 ..it's irksome for downloads; yeah 08:51:26 PoppaVic: eww 08:52:09 we can't DSL, and I won't pay for cable 08:52:16 PoppaVic: cable is absurd 08:52:46 PoppaVic: it's too bad, I get a good deal on DSL... Verizon, 3.0Mbit/768kbit, for $30, minus $5 because we get phone service, so $25 a month--about as much as AOL dialup ;-) 08:53:05 PoppaVic: and you can get 384kbit/128kbit for $20 or $15. 08:53:10 and, Amerischreck STILL thinks I owe them $500, so - I not only won't pay, I'd also never again get a second line 08:53:28 PoppaVic: $500 for what? 08:53:34 yeah, DSL is like 100yds out of range 08:53:41 PoppaVic: aww, that's too bad. 08:53:57 PoppaVic: I'm at 7650 feet, I think 08:54:16 PoppaVic: oh, 7580. 08:54:18 when I had my apt, they crossed lines with another res.. He called AZ daily - to his dad - I got billed his outgoing, he and I switched incoming - for over a month 08:54:30 PoppaVic: oh that's *really* annoying. 08:54:48 PoppaVic: did he pay you back for it? 08:54:56 yep. I told them and told them - and they STILL have me listed as owing them.. Not in my fuckin' lifetime. 08:55:16 PoppaVic: well your neighbor/worst enemy should pay you, not the phone company. 08:55:23 ..and all this, while we had a 2nd line they kept disconnecting 08:55:23 PoppaVic: small claims court? 08:55:37 nope - I'll go to my grave not paying them 08:55:55 PoppaVic: well, at least get the money back from your neighbor, go buy a Mac mini with it or something ;-) 08:56:08 that was nearly a decade ago 08:56:11 PoppaVic: Oh. 08:56:12 PoppaVic: lol 08:57:25 I dunno' why I should have to fight them for stupid billings: talking to more and more stupid underlings My entire family lived no more than 30 minutes away 08:59:02 Soo, I'm sorta' a "fugitive" and they are never going to see a dime from me. I figure I COULD owe them under a C-note, but they're nuts. 08:59:54 PoppaVic: pay them in pennies, $0.10 a day http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20051123.wxvisa23/BNStory/Business/ 09:00:10 I'm not even bothering. 09:00:23 PoppaVic: meh 09:00:36 I've even heard that judges and biz can refuse to accept pennies and dimes - they can REFUSE CASH 09:01:01 PoppaVic: that's stupid 09:01:08 yep 09:01:12