00:00:00 --- log: started forth/05.11.20 00:39:07 --- join: airbrush (n=morph@216-237-213-199-access-r30-ad.northstate.net) joined #forth 00:41:20 --- quit: swalters (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 01:24:35 --- quit: airbrush ("Client exiting") 02:20:37 --- join: akebono (n=fujiwara@218.231.198.163.eo.eaccess.ne.jp) joined #forth 02:20:37 Quote: A book worth reading is worth buying. -- John Ruskin 02:22:31 hi, are you all asleep? 02:31:01 --- join: swalters (n=swalters@6532183hfc82.tampabay.res.rr.com) joined #forth 02:33:06 hmmm 02:44:50 --- quit: akebono ("Leaving") 02:57:10 --- quit: swalters (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 03:03:33 --- join: humulus (n=humulus@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at) joined #forth 03:29:34 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pete@0-3pool157-20.nas22.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 04:39:04 --- join: cp (n=cp@bsd-talk.de) joined #forth 04:39:13 Hi, cp. 04:43:41 --- quit: PoppaVic ("Pulls the pin...") 04:45:11 hi. 05:00:44 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pete@0-1pool75-205.nas24.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 06:04:27 --- join: swalters (n=swalters@6532183hfc82.tampabay.res.rr.com) joined #forth 06:27:46 --- quit: swalters (Connection timed out) 06:35:08 --- join: JasonWoof (n=jason@c-71-192-20-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) joined #forth 06:35:08 --- mode: ChanServ set +o JasonWoof 06:37:52 --- join: tathi (n=josh@pdpc/supporter/bronze/tathi) joined #forth 06:44:13 --- join: akebono (n=fujiwara@218.231.198.163.eo.eaccess.ne.jp) joined #forth 06:44:13 Quote: A book worth reading is worth buying. -- John Ruskin 06:44:41 hmm.. 06:44:48 but not always at the price the damn publishers want to charge for it 06:44:53 worth RE-reading, I will agree with 06:45:00 yes 06:45:25 I've gotten "sticker-shock" and pissed the fuck off at the latest text-prices. 06:45:58 I've seen them report TP of moderate size for over $100 06:47:33 how goes the C, tathi ? 06:48:00 ah, I kind of dropped it. 06:48:12 ahh ;-) I thought so ;-> 06:48:15 ficl is really pretty nice, apart from the coding conventions. 06:48:44 yeah, IhateTheMonsterouslyLongLabels 06:48:59 * Robert likes public libraries. 06:49:38 Libraries are lovely - until they charge you by-the-month.. Somewhere along the line (locally) They lost the point. 06:49:54 Never seen a library that did that, fortunately. 06:50:03 Not here, either. 06:50:15 Unless when I forget to return the books. ;) 06:50:23 yah :) 06:50:27 Yeah, ours charges for a "card" - like $60/year - all atop taxes and whatnot 06:50:29 Except* 06:50:42 Ouch. 06:50:48 Here that's free. 06:50:56 oddly, this only occured when they finally moved down the street 06:51:07 I thought the whole point of libraries is that they are free access to knowledge 06:51:14 right 06:51:18 ..so did I 06:51:30 ours charges you if you live out of state 06:51:36 ..it's cheaper for me to just get a UoM or EMU card again, at that rate 06:52:12 So far: not one person has been able to explain how we can vote and get mail herein, but have to PAY to use the lib. 06:55:46 PoppaVic: I should probably finish mine anyway -- ficl is about 1MB of source, and it would be nice to have something smaller. 06:56:44 although it still only takes about 11 seconds to compile on my box, so maybe I should just stop complaining. :) 06:58:03 I sorta' agree 06:58:15 ..about "finish", anyway 06:58:53 tathi: well, 11 sec for a binary - fine; How's the speed to run it up and use it? 06:59:45 oh, it comes up instantly, for all practical purposes. 06:59:52 ahh - that's a plus 07:00:07 I haven't tested execution speed at all. 07:00:16 Have you noticed any FICL non-support driving you crazy? 07:00:32 it's embedable, for that it needs to come up quickly 07:00:34 no. why? 07:00:51 just curious. I've not had time to do much therein 07:01:04 --- join: swalters (n=swalters@6532183hfc82.tampabay.res.rr.com) joined #forth 07:01:19 I presume that is *IS* likely you can envision spinoff/mods? 07:01:59 Well, it's designed to be used as a scripting language type thing for a larger program, if that's what you mean. 07:02:05 so extending it by adding new words and such is easy. 07:02:17 btw.. following is my current experimental self-config file... 07:02:20 well, easy enough -- again, the syntax is a bit wordy for my taste. 07:02:39 http://rafb.net/paste/results/Yu1g7Q84.html 07:03:00 yeah.. I noticed he really enjoys 30-letter names 07:03:56 and I was planning on a byte-coded approach, where he is just using pointers to dictwords. 07:04:06 but again, I suppose memory space isn't much of an issue these days. 07:04:15 who doesn't hate that unlazy guys? 07:04:19 yeah... It's really iffy 07:04:45 I don't suppose the overhead is justifiable, versus lists/structs/arrays of ptrs 07:05:11 sorry, what overhead? 07:05:37 you'd need to breakout the value, then look it up, then vector. 07:06:00 ..I suppose that the bytecode is MORE flexible, but damn few imps bother. 07:06:14 ..I think we should certainly try, thogh 07:06:20 well, "lookup" is just an array index operation 07:06:25 yeppers 07:06:32 and ficl isn't pointing directly to code, so it's "vectoring" also. 07:06:32 this is still "overhead" 07:07:21 so any decent C compiler should optimize the overhead down to a shift and a mask. 07:07:26 the other way would be that the bytecode are adresses to words 07:07:33 * JasonWoof overheads PoppaVic with a herring 07:07:39 Myself, I always figure C for best, asm for fastest; forth and such for "I need to examine concepts". So, yeah.. I still'd like to see yer code - filtered thru yer FICL experience ;-) 07:08:00 all right, I'll consider finishing it to the point where it runs. 07:08:12 JasonWoof: I love-yah, dude - but asm blows. 07:08:16 May be a while though -- things have been crazy lately. 07:08:38 tathi: no rush.. I too am staring at FICL and thinking of using it. 07:09:06 ..just pondering how byte-coding and better source would afect it. 07:09:41 yah, and I have no problem with the basic FICL interface, so switching from one to the other should be a couple of macro definitions, or a global search/replace. 07:09:49 right 07:10:19 It's SOOoooo close to be "stone-cold cool" 07:10:27 I agree. 07:11:01 and I'm not entirely sure that C provides the tools to go the rest of the way easily. 07:11:12 but I suppose it's worth a try. 07:11:21 It sorta' reminds me of case/if and fgetc; versus sscanf; versus real lexers. 07:11:40 tathi: Ive no issue with a lib. 07:13:00 the whole "provide tools" thing has become pretty mucked. 07:13:24 I was thinking of syntax for declaring forth system configurations, actually. 07:13:45 Yeah, and again: I'm doing my best ;-/ 07:13:52 I might wind up writing a small tool to autogenerate some bits. 07:14:00 yep 07:14:48 anyway, tinkering this INI and pondering the imponderable. Feedback would be nice.. 07:15:01 aside: Nephew got his first deer today. 07:16:26 I find that much more readable than what you had before 07:16:48 The more I glare at this INI, the more I cogitate using a forth base. Sorta' a forth-base generating info to regenerate itself and then for other tools 07:17:09 tathi: I figured you would - the lispers liked it as well. 07:31:15 --- quit: PoppaVic ("Pulls the pin...") 07:31:51 puh, he is away 07:35:51 what's shaking tathi? 07:37:57 not much. 07:38:28 well, just started an art class. 07:38:52 What kind of art are you most into? 07:39:29 oh, I'm not particularly into art. Just thought I should at least learn to draw properly. 07:39:49 And my youngest brother has been taking classes at a particularly good little art studio near us, so... 07:40:04 Ah, good luck then. 07:40:47 Are you an artist? 07:41:27 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@adsl-69-155-177-154.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net) joined #forth 07:42:14 No, I wouldn't say that. I liked painting in high school, but since that (well, it was 4 or so years ago :) not much. 07:42:39 Gotcha. 07:43:24 My latest "drawing" was some ASCII art. Forming a self-modyfying brainfuck program executed on a C64. 07:43:33 Yeah, me too...did a bit of art at 10-12 years old, but then got into computers :) 07:49:32 --- quit: swalters (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 07:50:54 hi, 07:51:30 as a novice user of Forth, I wrote a sample program. 07:51:37 Hi, akebono. 07:52:21 2variable sum 07:52:21 0. sum 2! 07:52:21 : test ( -- ) 07:52:21 0. 07:52:21 begin 07:52:22 1. D+ 2dup 2dup 07:52:24 sum 2@ D+ sum 2! 07:52:26 1000000. D= 07:52:28 until ; 07:52:30 test 07:52:34 sum 2@ D. 07:52:36 bye 07:52:38 ;-) 07:53:43 I'm ashamed to show this ugly code here. ;-) 07:53:58 but I have one naive question. 07:54:11 why all the double-cell numbers? 07:54:29 oh, you're using a Z80 forth or something...? 07:54:39 no gforth. 07:55:01 the limit number may be very big. 07:55:38 my question is about the balance between stack manipulation and use of variables. 07:56:49 in this case, the loop counter is on the stack only, while the sum is stored in the variable. 07:57:44 but avoiding the variable reference may be difficult or cost more stack operations. 07:58:01 how do forthers think about this? 08:00:06 Often the loop counter is placed on the return stack. 08:00:16 In words like DO/LOOP and FOR/NEXT. 08:00:32 I see. 08:01:02 if the loop limit is a 2-cell number, how do you treat it? 08:01:22 That's actually a pretty evil situation. I've never used it. 08:01:32 (2-cells numbers, that is) 08:01:33 are you really going to have a loop limit greater than 2 billion or so? 08:02:10 Because you could easily enough have the sum be a double-cell number, but the limit be only one cell. 08:03:12 ah. 08:03:22 : test 0. 100000 1 do i s>d d+ loop ; 08:04:46 as far as the limit is set smaller, it works. 08:05:06 using do is much simpler. 08:06:21 the limit number tends to be smaller than the result sum, so it will work. 08:06:31 Okay. I understood. 08:10:28 thanks, I'll try some more.... 08:10:30 --- part: akebono left #forth 08:11:33 oops, he left. 08:29:26 http://paste.lisp.org/display/13800/raw 08:30:07 grr. I always forget to give two arguments to DO. 08:31:43 * Robert usually uses FOR/NEXT. 08:32:05 * tathi too 09:05:47 --- quit: snowrichard ("Leaving") 09:26:41 Hey all. 09:38:49 hey quartus 09:41:54 Hi. 10:04:39 oh. I was being dumb earlier. sum(1..2**n-1) = 2**(2n-1), so there's practically no point using a double-cell limit. 11:25:41 --- join: airbrush (n=morph@216-237-213-231-access-r30-ad.northstate.net) joined #forth 11:27:29 Hi. 11:27:38 hello 11:30:18 do you know why sun's openboot evaluates this forth form to 38 instead of 56 ? 5 3 + 7 * . 11:31:11 that's hex 11:32:15 don't know why it would be set to base 16, though. 11:32:37 Real programmers use base 16 by default. 11:32:54 Oh, of course. How silly of me to forget. 11:33:58 unless you're one of the "elders" (annunaki) then it's base 60 11:34:02 But I immediately noticed that 38h = 56, so maybe there's hope for me yet. :) 11:34:04 oh ok. 11:39:16 mmm...sexagesimal. 11:39:30 Imagine having to memorize those multiplication tables 11:40:04 Heh. 11:44:23 and god said "Go ye FORTH and multiply", heh seems he wanted a lot of forth coders around for some reason *<]8) 11:53:11 Wow, that's deep. Want to be my new spiritual leader? 11:54:38 nah, sorry, I wouldn't have any disciples that'd have me as a teacher, heh if they'd listen to me, they'd listen to anybody 11:55:50 * airbrush usually says the same thing about the women he's been hooked up with 11:57:05 seems I remember reading about a forth liveCD based on knoppix/morphix, was that ever done? 11:59:03 I must go for now, good to talk wid you peeps 11:59:04 later 11:59:07 --- part: airbrush left #forth 12:12:22 I'm glad he mentioned annunaki -- I never realized where Lucas (or whoever) got the word "Jedi" from. 12:31:50 --- join: snoopy_17 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-153-226.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 12:50:05 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 12:50:08 --- nick: snoopy_17 -> Snoopy42 13:10:12 --- join: Raystm2_ (n=Raystm2@adsl-68-93-43-209.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 13:11:14 --- quit: Raystm2 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 14:06:52 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@adsl-69-155-177-154.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net) joined #forth 14:13:54 --- quit: snowrichard (Remote closed the connection) 14:16:48 --- join: TheBlueWizard (i=TheBlueW@ts001d0523.wdc-dc.xod.concentric.net) joined #forth 14:17:09 Hi, Wizard. 14:18:44 hiya Robert :) 15:06:28 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@adsl-69-155-177-154.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net) joined #forth 15:11:07 hiya snowrichard 15:17:50 --- join: theFox (n=jdfox572@adsl-68-124-65-144.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) joined #forth 15:18:07 Hi. 15:19:53 hi 15:20:29 hiya theFox 15:21:42 hi 15:22:02 Anything new and exciting? 15:23:19 been busy with various things....unrelated to Forth :) But I came across an archive of old computer printouts and I'm typing them in bit by bit.... 15:23:22 just trying out chat software on someone's pc 15:31:59 --- quit: theFox () 15:32:04 gotta go,,,bye! 15:32:08 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth 20:27:42 --- join: airbrush (n=morph@216-237-213-37-access-r12-ad.northstate.net) joined #forth 20:47:28 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 21:30:29 --- join: swalters (n=swalters@6532183hfc82.tampabay.res.rr.com) joined #forth 21:52:29 --- quit: snowrichard (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 21:52:33 --- quit: JasonWoof (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 21:52:33 --- quit: madwork (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 21:52:33 --- quit: cp (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 21:52:35 --- quit: Quartus (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 21:52:35 --- quit: warpzero (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 21:52:42 --- quit: ianp (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 21:52:42 --- quit: airbrush (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 21:52:42 --- quit: Snoopy42 (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 21:52:42 --- quit: humulus (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 21:52:42 --- quit: skylan (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 21:52:42 --- quit: OrngeTide (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 21:52:42 --- quit: crc (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 21:53:26 --- join: JasonWoof (n=jason@pdpc/supporter/student/Herkamire) joined #forth 21:53:26 --- join: airbrush (n=morph@216-237-213-37-access-r12-ad.northstate.net) joined #forth 21:53:26 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@adsl-69-155-177-154.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net) joined #forth 21:53:26 --- join: Snoopy42 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-153-226.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 21:53:26 --- join: cp (n=cp@bsd-talk.de) joined #forth 21:53:26 --- join: humulus (n=humulus@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at) joined #forth 21:53:26 --- join: skylan (n=sjh@dialup-216-211-5-151.tbaytel.net) joined #forth 21:53:26 --- join: madwork (n=foo@derby.metrics.com) joined #forth 21:53:26 --- join: OrngeTide (i=orange@rm-f.net) joined #forth 21:53:26 --- join: ianp (i=ian@audiowiki.com) joined #forth 21:53:26 --- join: warpzero (n=warpzero@wza.us) joined #forth 21:53:26 --- join: Quartus (n=trailer@CPE0001023f6e4f-CM013349902843.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 21:53:26 --- join: crc (i=crc@pdpc/supporter/active/crc) joined #forth 21:53:26 --- mode: irc.freenode.net set +oo JasonWoof crc 21:58:07 h,, 21:58:38 --- quit: airbrush ("Client exiting") 22:15:48 --- quit: swalters (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 22:22:52 --- quit: virl (Remote closed the connection) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/05.11.20