00:00:00 --- log: started forth/05.11.18 01:29:11 --- join: aum (n=aum@60-234-156-82.bitstream.orcon.net.nz) joined #forth 04:58:24 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pete@0-2pool198-112.nas30.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 05:14:51 --- quit: aum () 05:39:35 --- quit: Ray_work ("Stupid NetSplit") 05:43:08 --- nick: Raystm2 -> nanstm 06:38:17 --- quit: swalters (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 06:54:02 --- join: swalters (n=swalters@6532183hfc82.tampabay.res.rr.com) joined #forth 06:56:08 --- quit: madwork (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 07:04:04 --- join: madwork (n=foo@derby.metrics.com) joined #forth 07:10:00 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@adsl-69-155-177-154.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net) joined #forth 07:17:36 --- join: Ray_work (n=vircuser@adsl-66-142-171-177.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 07:51:40 --- join: tathi (n=josh@pdpc/supporter/bronze/tathi) joined #forth 08:23:57 --- join: Astrobe_ (n=astrobe@LAubervilliers-151-11-56-82.w193-251.abo.wanadoo.fr) joined #forth 08:24:27 #join fluxbox 08:24:27 oops... 08:24:48 --- join: amca (i=Rain@rdlax10-b192.dialup.optusnet.com.au) joined #forth 08:25:20 Evening 08:25:30 hi amca 08:25:38 How are you Astrobe_? 08:26:06 fine, thanks. Did we met before? 08:26:13 how goes it, amca? 08:27:36 --- quit: PoppaVic ("brb... ISP-sweep") 08:29:13 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pete@0-1pool47-83.nas30.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 08:29:24 back, sorry 08:30:43 heh 08:31:03 PoppaVic: dialup d/c after # of hrs? 08:31:14 Yeah, I got paranoid 08:31:20 paranoid? 08:31:35 I'm (today) Diddling an .ini file with traces of sexp 08:32:06 amca: yeah, the ISP will sweep, I'll die - and not be alterted - and programs will blithely run w/o knowing we are dead 08:32:32 .ini format file, or an initialisation (with personal format) file? 08:32:59 Imnot on my computer, by the way, so I cant save anything. At the GFs 08:33:12 It tries to use ini 'sections' and 'assignment' - but includes info for operations. 08:33:23 lemme' do a save and rafb... 08:33:36 cool :) 08:33:53 http://rafb.net/paste/results/q83ZvK90.html 08:35:10 Seriously experimental.. No code-support. Just eyeballing it for sense/readability and completeness. 08:36:14 Well, not as good as mine, in my biased opinion, but it looks a lot cleaner that your old ver. 08:36:50 Yeah, it's provoking thoughts of vectors/exec-funcs. I was awaiting yer pretty xml in the mail. 08:37:18 And I can actually tell what is supposed to happen by viewing the file and not knowing anything about it :) 08:37:26 I hesitate to start with what I am eventually planning - minish - for a datafile input. 08:37:34 Was I supposed to do XML? 08:37:37 >.> 08:38:12 oh, yeah.. I thought you were going to email me a few of the xml attempts? THe ones that were really terse, but readable. 08:38:28 my bad - I may have misunderstood 08:42:46 Maybe I did express myself properly 08:43:44 PoppaVic: Hey, did you happen to save that one I did with the {'s? 08:43:53 The heirachial one 08:44:02 (only spelt properly :) ) 08:44:03 no.. *sigh* I was thinking that #forth captured a log. 08:44:19 ah 08:44:29 nm 08:44:38 I just plain didn't think to save the several decent alternatives, between shutdowns and chores 08:44:47 lol 08:44:57 Well I didnt savce it either.... :) 08:45:09 I'm pretty sure it's logged. 08:45:16 But, it may not matter. 08:52:43 Poppa: So what are you concentrating on working presently? 08:53:10 Mostly, trying to see how this new format would work. 08:53:25 or "would require", prehaps a better phrase. 08:54:54 The idea, to me, is still to sorta' short-out sh/autoshit and make in order to generate something like forth for all further use. 08:55:14 make: automake/make 08:55:18 what is äutoshit" actually called again? 08:55:22 ah 08:55:41 GNU autotools - a whole mess of shit from m4 thru sh and up/out 08:56:16 Im tired, so my memory is wacked. Do you mind reminding me what is wrong with it or would you prefer I look through my logs? 08:56:45 My feeling is this... THere can't be too awful-much we NEED to "configure" for the tool, and after that: the config is part of the language is part of the buils is part of the install. 08:57:01 "A hammer to kill a fly" as we say 08:57:08 not at all 08:57:43 there is an awful lot of total crap - in sh or m4 - that even cranks up the compilers to learn the most trivial stuff. 08:57:44 Astrobe_: Sorry, how rude of me - I didnt see your earlier question to me. I dont think we have met before 08:58:13 np amca 08:58:41 Astrobe_: How long have you been into 08:58:45 #forth? 08:59:17 I'm not a regular. Connecting from time to time. 08:59:25 Ah 08:59:32 Im a somewhat irregular too 08:59:47 What inspired you to come to #forth? 08:59:51 PoppaVic: I guess it is justified when dealing with the complexity around. 09:00:27 yeah.. THe bottom line is: there is just no sense to about 3-30 "syntaxes" 09:00:29 Honestly: I was waiting for a customer to callback :) 09:01:18 Astrobe_: heh. I accidentally almost spelt your nick as Astrolabe_ then :) 09:01:19 PoppaVic: you mean, languages? 09:01:21 I may even adopt a forthish-form for the foremost datafiles, just to make things consistent thereafter 09:01:40 Astrobe_: I'm not even sure some can be CALLED "languages" 09:02:05 Did the customer inspire you just then, or are you talking about when you 1st came to #forth? 09:04:06 No, I thought, I'll have to wait a bit before leaving (cause it' 18h here), in case he needs more help, so what will I do to kill the time. 09:04:29 Ah, I see 09:04:37 May I ask what your job is? 09:06:01 PoppaVic: ok. I talked about that with another guy yesterday, and I came to the paradox that people come with new languages as silver bullets and it just resulted with one more language,adding to the rest. 09:06:12 right 09:06:48 amca: programmer... (not in forth, unforthunately). 09:06:55 This is just a plain old datafile.. Trying to neatly codify assignments/tests for a confguration/platform database. 09:07:11 What would you two regard as the solution to the language zoo? 09:07:19 PoppaVic: but things would go better if there were indeed only one language. 09:07:51 amca: I prefer C for almost everything. I prefer forth-like languages for interp/interactive 09:08:02 Astrobe_: I would disagree with that myself. Different languages express different domains better. But I can see the nee for fewer used languages. 09:08:12 Astrobe_: prob is the ABI's and interfaces 09:08:33 Astrobe_: What do you like to code in? 09:08:46 ok, one is maybe to few... 09:09:06 I'd be pleased if all compiled-shit generated C to compile; usually after conversion to asm - but then, I'm partial to filters. 09:09:06 /to/too/ 09:09:27 amca: good question. 09:09:57 amca: first of all in my language, 4IM, a Forth dialect :) 09:10:05 heh :) 09:11:06 To be honest, I really code (mostly) in Forth and C. 09:11:33 C for the work, Forth for the fun. 09:11:38 hehe 09:11:58 Astrobe_: What sort of programs do you code for each? 09:12:03 I'm looking at Scheme these days. 09:12:15 Astrobe_: Do you have a website? 09:12:55 amca: in my job, I programm an embedded target, that's all I can say. 09:13:17 * amca nods 09:13:18 yeah.. more and more of that noise 09:13:19 amca: in Forth, I'm just developping my Forth dialect. see 4IM.atspace.com 09:13:20 And in play? 09:13:23 Ah 09:13:28 * amca look sees 09:14:11 PoppaVic: sorry, my english is weak. What did you mean? 09:14:48 Astrobe_: my bad.. Apologies: more and more of that private/closed-source drivel. I understand it, but despise it. 09:15:52 Astrobe: What bit size will the words/cells be in your bytecode? 09:16:11 ahhh - more ABI stuff ;-) 09:16:48 amca: one byte for instructions, offsets, address, etc. one 4 bytes. 09:16:58 PoppaVic: ABI ? 09:17:11 Application Binary Interface 09:17:22 as opposed to: Application Program Interface 09:17:46 PoppaVic: could you elaborate for me? 09:17:47 the diff between asm and machinecode or worse 09:17:56 Astrolabe: Sorry, which in instructions, offsets, address, etc. was 1 byte and which are 4 bytes in size? 09:18:16 Astrobe_: it's really worthy of a few hours with google. 09:18:30 amca: instr. are one byte long. 09:18:51 in fact, the ABI also has to consider asm and linkers and loaders and platforms 09:19:08 Astolabe: He means the lowlevel machine/assembly level details of how languages are implemented, like Pascal and C parameter passing are different ABIs for functions 09:19:08 ..but, good luck on those issues in toto 09:19:28 yeah. THere are a LOT of low-level issues 09:19:42 PoppaVic: ok 09:19:44 ..which is why I try hard to get no lower than C 09:20:30 Even with C (because of C?) I am working on this Metabuilder project. 09:20:45 PoppaVic: yes, in the french doc I write something like: there are few chances to get something running without using C > 09:21:05 Astrolabe: YOur first lang is French? 09:21:30 So I wrote the C port as a trojan horse, with the idea that that way I can have a good environment to rewrite in asm. 09:21:54 amca: yes, and I am. 09:23:00 amca: HEY don't run away ( I'm not going to set your car on fire :) 09:23:31 lmao 09:23:57 fire? car? FRENCH? eww 09:23:59 hehe 09:24:02 Astrobe_: So are you one of the bougeous(sp) who I have to burn down? ;) 09:27:16 Hmmm...maybe I scared Astrobe_ off now.... 09:27:23 nah 09:27:36 true frogs have thin-skins ;-) 09:27:51 REAL frogs are ego-solid ;-) 09:28:08 Actually, no. That is why they have to be near water - thier skin is porous, unlike reptile or mammal skin. :P 09:28:22 As I said 09:28:23 ??? 09:28:27 hehe 09:28:36 np, Astrobe_ - just foolin' around 09:28:51 Ok, very well, I'm lost at sea. 09:29:03 Astrobe_: nai - we all are 09:29:25 The kicker is to intersect more interests than differences ;-) 09:29:56 Astrobe_: Have you as yet used 4im to code anything other than 4im? 09:29:57 Even friends in RL can agree to disagree or argue w/o getting ugly. 09:30:24 PoppaVic: No we cant! You're gonna die! :P 09:31:36 amca: well, there's many little tools in 4im: an editor, an assembler, etc. > 09:31:36 amca: heh.. Suprisingly, I never found a "taker" that would bring his threat over "in-person".. I dunno if it was the promise of the 45acp, 300sav, 30-06 or 12ga that moderated their insanity ;-> 09:32:10 ...some folks are just limp ;-) 09:32:41 Astrobe_: tools are a good thing, but don't confuse apps with tools or functions. 09:32:47 amca: but I did not do anything signifcant in 4IM yet. 09:33:54 Astrobe_: Any plans in the future of what you want to code in 4im yet? 09:33:59 The DOS version had limited use; but know with Linux/Windows functions, I can acces to network and GUI stuff. 09:34:10 Even the term "extensible" gets confused with interpreters versus compilers/linkers. 09:34:34 amca: small utilities for my work. 09:35:31 PoppaVic: How so? 09:35:49 Astrobe_: Can you expand on what sort of utilities you are thinking of? 09:36:17 amca: "extension" can mean anything from a colon-word to a #define to a func to a lib... It gets muzzy. 09:37:25 the method of extension can be integral or external, too 09:37:27 amca: stuff that is very specific to the product I work on. 09:37:32 ah 09:37:44 amca: (sorry) 09:37:54 Are you able to say which company/organisation U work 4? 09:37:57 can't be helped. 09:38:01 Astrobe_: Np 09:38:14 Sorry about the AOL - Im getting too tired :) 09:39:08 amca: it's name is synchronic 09:39:50 Does it have a website? 09:40:23 amca; the problem is whatever app I think of, it already exists, so why rewrite it. 09:40:29 amca: you need to join earlier ;-) 09:40:33 amca: yes. :) 09:40:49 Astrobe_: yeah.. THat makes interfacing a challenge. 09:41:10 PoppaVic: He mentioned the url earlier? 09:41:56 amca: just google. But it's a french company and written in french anyway. 09:42:00 hmm> no: his issues 09:42:15 Astrobe_: I understand what you mean. I can think of 2 reasons however: 1) To learn a language or enviroment. 2) To port to a new enviroment. 09:42:33 3) why 'sh' is not portable 09:42:44 PoppaVic: He explained what he could and couldnt talk about before? 09:43:06 amca: no. He implied a NDA 09:43:41 ...closed-source/in-house non-disclosure. 09:43:41 PoppaVic: "Portable" is a relative concept. I CANT THINK OF MANY PROGRAMS THAT HAVEW BEEN PORTED TO THE ABACUS YET> :P 09:43:52 ?ME NODS> I HAD GUESSED THAT ALREADY :) 09:43:55 yep 09:44:00 lose the caps ;-) 09:44:02 SORRY FOR CAPS 09:44:04 sorry 09:44:06 aaah! 09:44:12 PoppaVic: the fact is, that I started 4IM as a standalone system, because I was interested in Languages, Systems, and minimalism. Then it evolved, and I learned. 09:44:18 on my computer< i have the capslock ripped off 09:44:55 Astrobe_: of course. THe prob with most Forths is they want to pretend they ARE the "os" - and this is a huge, mega, monster-issue 09:45:17 BUT i felt I had to port it to C because of all the times I thought "I coudl do this little tool in 1 minute in Forth"... 09:45:19 Astrobe_: Do you know any asm? 09:45:38 Near as I can tell, the lowest two languages are C and ASM - and neither reports the systemic ABI well. 09:46:02 amca: x86 (real mode) mainly. and a bit of 68K (from school) 09:46:05 so, we need something to ascertain the most for the least. 09:46:22 Astrobe_: Do you mind if I ask how old you are? 09:46:47 PoppaVic: Looking at ASM you can tell the ABI, right? 09:47:07 amca: np, I'm 30 (what's going on here?) 09:47:19 not really.. I'm woefully lost with new CPU's and platforms. 09:47:36 30 works ;-) 09:47:44 ..even I was 30 once ;-) 09:48:08 Im 30 too :) 09:48:24 Astrobe_: What are you referring to when asking about what is going on? 09:48:54 PoppaVic: You are 35, or are you older? 09:49:18 --- join: virl (n=hmpf@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at) joined #forth 09:49:55 amca: well, I'm a bit puzzled by the fact that some questions are more personal than about the subject of this channel. 09:51:03 amca: 45+ 09:51:22 Astrobe_: Ah, Im sorry. Im a very curious person. Which is why I asked if it was okay to ask. 09:51:24 that's np 09:51:54 Astrobe_: it has to do with qualifying/pigeon-holeing folks.. It's hard to phrase some stuff w/o references 09:52:18 Well Im off for the night. Thanks for the chat guys 09:52:29 SOmetimes a male-specific ref will elude a fem, and vice-versa.. Better to know before eating yer ankle. 09:52:36 laters, amca 09:52:39 me too. 09:53:08 Astrobe_: Now all you have to do is tell me all your credit card numbers and expiry dates... ;) 09:53:15 Laters! 09:53:18 --- quit: amca ("Toodles to all!") 09:53:21 Good day, or goodnight to you all 09:53:46 amca: (you b*tch :) 09:54:06 Bye. 09:54:56 --- quit: Astrobe_ ("Leaving") 10:25:09 --- quit: PoppaVic ("Pulls the pin...") 11:19:40 --- join: Jim7J1AJH (n=jim@221x115x224x2.ap221.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) joined #forth 11:21:36 --- quit: madwork (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 11:46:22 --- join: madwork (n=foo@derby.metrics.com) joined #forth 11:58:25 --- quit: Jim7J1AJH ("leaving") 12:29:50 --- join: snoopy_17 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-152-167.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 12:46:39 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 12:46:48 --- nick: snoopy_17 -> Snoopy42 12:55:29 --- quit: swalters (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 13:16:55 --- quit: FiLa (Remote closed the connection) 13:27:12 --- join: aum (n=aum@60-234-156-82.bitstream.orcon.net.nz) joined #forth 14:53:33 --- join: swalters (n=swalters@6532183hfc82.tampabay.res.rr.com) joined #forth 14:55:24 --- quit: swalters (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 14:57:34 --- join: swalters (n=swalters@6532183hfc82.tampabay.res.rr.com) joined #forth 15:00:28 --- quit: swalters (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 15:01:55 --- join: swalters (n=swalters@6532183hfc82.tampabay.res.rr.com) joined #forth 15:05:21 --- quit: swalters (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 15:08:50 --- join: swalters (n=swalters@6532183hfc82.tampabay.res.rr.com) joined #forth 15:33:53 --- nick: nanstm -> tiff 15:44:56 --- join: Jim7J1AJH (n=jim@221x115x224x2.ap221.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) joined #forth 16:48:30 --- quit: cmeme ("Client terminated by server") 16:49:27 --- join: cmeme (n=cmeme@boa.b9.com) joined #forth 17:58:20 --- quit: swalters (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 18:53:04 --- quit: aum () 19:00:02 --- join: swalters (n=swalters@6532183hfc82.tampabay.res.rr.com) joined #forth 20:00:52 --- join: sproingie (i=foobar@64-121-2-59.c3-0.sfrn-ubr8.sfrn.ca.cable.rcn.com) joined #forth 20:22:32 --- quit: swalters (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 20:38:59 --- join: osh (i=74081307@Orleans-ppp42591.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 20:49:04 --- part: osh left #forth 20:50:36 --- nick: tiff -> Raystm2 23:20:17 --- quit: cmeme (Network is unreachable) 23:22:29 --- join: cmeme (n=cmeme@boa.b9.com) joined #forth 23:36:14 --- quit: sproingie ("Leaving") 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/05.11.18