00:00:00 --- log: started forth/05.11.12 00:45:38 --- part: slava left #forth 01:55:27 --- join: akebono (n=kasuga@218.231.239.90.eo.eaccess.ne.jp) joined #forth 02:05:16 --- part: akebono left #forth 03:48:37 --- quit: Raystm2_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 03:50:39 --- join: Raystm2 (n=Raystm2@adsl-69-149-40-70.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 03:58:12 --- join: Raystm2_ (n=Raystm2@adsl-69-149-45-157.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 04:08:31 --- quit: Raystm2 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 04:22:29 --- join: ecraven (n=c3036ccc@evolution.cyanidehosting.net) joined #forth 04:22:35 hey all 04:23:27 Quartus: re the question i asked yesterday, the source does not prescribe the ordering very much, i can change the parameter order for inner lambdas and such.. 04:24:06 i'd like to eliminate *local* variables in scheme functions 05:29:56 --- join: tathi (n=josh@pdpc/supporter/bronze/tathi) joined #forth 05:52:04 --- quit: Quartus (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 06:07:56 --- join: Quartus (n=trailer@CPE0001023f6e4f-CM013349902843.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 06:14:44 Hey, all. 06:15:18 Hi, Quartus 06:23:13 --- join: Raystm2 (n=Raystm2@adsl-69-149-61-120.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 06:23:14 --- quit: Raystm2_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 06:23:58 Hey, tathi. How are things? 06:24:30 Things are good. Looking forward to Thanksgiving. :) 06:24:44 Ah yes, the American version. 06:25:13 Yah. 06:25:28 What day is it? 06:25:32 Well, my family's version, at least. :) 06:25:47 the 24th 06:26:28 We space out Christmas and Thanksgiving a bit more up here. :) 06:26:42 October 10th or something, right? 06:27:19 I think it was, this year. 06:28:23 very sensible. :) 06:28:23 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pete@0-1pool46-16.nas30.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 06:29:07 G'day 06:29:09 Helps the waistline, perhaps :) 06:29:18 It's always a bit of a scramble around here, Thanskgiving, then Christmas, then most of the family b'days are January and February. ;) 06:32:26 I can imagine. 06:49:11 --- quit: FiLa (Remote closed the connection) 07:18:38 --- join: amca (n=plump@as-bri-3-71.ozonline.com.au) joined #forth 07:23:48 Morning 07:24:10 lo 07:24:36 How goes it? 07:24:47 oh, I'm getting there.. 07:25:00 --- quit: saon ("BadWM -> Ion") 07:25:00 Still need to rewrite some code, but the testing continues well 07:25:00 Not so hot eh? 07:25:06 cool. 07:25:31 Im not quite in coding mode yet, so I still havent been able to have a look at that code, sorry 07:25:46 I am, unfortunately, considering either cranking up flex or using a sexep lib. 07:26:00 not a prob, it's been evolving and working nicely. 07:26:45 good morning 07:27:15 sexep? 07:27:23 Morning crc. How are you? 07:27:58 hi crc. 07:28:03 not bad 07:28:08 a little sick again :( 07:28:15 Yeah, sexep is an expression-parser/scanner schlock. 07:28:16 but pretty good overall 07:28:34 Syphillis acting up again is it? ;) 07:28:49 PoppaVic: Is that a bastardisation of sexp? 07:29:09 could be, baughn turned me on to it again. 07:30:21 I'm trying to keep the input-datafile shit as simple-minded as possible, so I end up doing internal gyrations to spare admins/roots/users 07:31:17 crc: Been able to be up to anything while recovering? 07:31:31 Hmmm 07:31:47 amca: working on what will become the next version of retroforth 07:32:03 lots of internal changes, refactoring of the source, etc 07:32:07 Oooh. How is it going? What are you concentrating on? 07:32:16 Oh, you already answered that >.> 07:33:59 I've got some documentation on the words in the new core (Rx), and am working to expand that into a useable source of information 07:34:43 crc: So the system also acts like an online help? 07:34:54 http://rafb.net/paste/results/JzhX2f64.html 07:34:55 no 07:34:58 Like will there be a help word? 07:35:02 the core itself has no I/O concept 07:35:10 see above, amca - I threww the i/o together 07:35:11 rf 8.3 will have support for help 07:35:20 PoppaVic: I look sees now 07:35:35 though the exact form of that help remains to be determined 07:35:43 crc: 'view field' words are not considered? 07:35:52 crc: If the core has no concept of IO, how is the IO implemented? 07:35:55 what is a 'view field' ? 07:36:03 I/O is implemented above the core 07:36:17 the core is the basic language on which all else can be built 07:36:20 A VF is something they came out with around the time of F83 and F-PC 07:36:25 crc: So the core has facilities to use external libraries? 07:36:29 * crc designed the core to not include I/O words on purpose 07:36:41 it is a header-field that lets you look at the source or 'help' for words. 07:36:42 the support code to initialize the core can use syscall/external libraries 07:36:51 PoppaVic: Are you talking about coding, or military jets? ;) 07:37:06 code, of course 07:37:10 crc: cool 07:37:25 You never heard of either of those forths?? Man, I feel old. 07:37:30 crc: So you have it a minimalistic core, like C? 07:37:44 It's 142 words currently 07:37:52 PoppaVic: Im still only a newbie remember :) 07:38:02 http://fcode.org/~crc/rx.glossary http://fcode.org/~crc/rx.stack 07:38:34 oh, ok.. F83 ran, iirc, first on Z80's.. F-PC was for DOS machines, and I believe F83 ran there as well. 07:38:59 Ooh! 07:39:19 crc: Ill check that out now. 07:39:40 crc: What is Rx? 07:39:53 Rx is the new core codebase for RetroForth 8.3 and beyond 07:39:58 Prescriptions ;-) 07:40:16 it's a lot cleaner internally than the core code I was using in 8.2 and earlier 07:41:09 Ah, I see. Good idea 07:41:52 crc: What is the h0 var? 07:42:19 h0 is a variable that points to the top of the heap ("here" is defined as "h0 @") 07:42:35 Ah! :) 07:42:42 Is there a h1? 07:42:45 no 07:43:05 "here zero" 07:43:05 Can I ask why it is named h0 and not just h or heap? 07:43:41 amca: historical reasons, going back to RetroForth 4.0 (naming is possibly going to change in 8.3) 07:44:21 PoppaVic: What does the word sexep actually mean/stand for? 07:44:37 crc: Were the historical reasons arbitary at the time? 07:45:03 Honestly? I've forgotten.. something about expressions. I downloaded source yesterday, but been too busy to muck with it. 07:45:45 basically, they are of the form: "(doer (dat1 dat2))", etc. 07:45:48 sexp means sybolic-expressions 07:45:59 not sure I care to bother with them. 07:46:00 Looks like LISP sexps 07:46:17 yes, they are based on that - in a lib/source for use in C 07:46:39 O_o 07:46:48 Why not use C initialiser syntax? 07:47:04 amca: originally it was a naming convention for variables that dealt with the core memory areas 07:47:05 Basically, they just look like a way to simplify lexing/scanning/parsing. 07:47:28 crc: still using asm as the baseline or C? 07:47:34 asm still 07:47:41 ah 07:47:47 though I plan to write a version of the core in C eventually 07:48:14 Yeah, tathi has a C-core in the works, and mentioned he wants to peruse FICL for ideas 07:48:26 crc: Ah. Was there previously h[1234...] etc? 07:48:50 in the asm there are h0 = heap, d0 = dictionary, s0 = stack 07:49:00 Ah, I see 07:49:21 there was never an h1/d1/s1 or beyond, but that was set up so that we could have multiple heaps/dictionaries/stacks 07:51:44 cool idea 07:54:01 that might still come one day 07:54:24 * crc is also working on a text editor written using C and Rx 07:54:51 hmmm 07:54:59 will it be included in RF? 07:55:13 it'll be released separately, at least initally 07:55:23 ah 07:55:29 tathi and I were talking about FICL4+ the other day.. Aside from horrible-long funcnames and funky file-seperation, it looks very, very interesting. 07:55:49 eventually I'll redo all the C in forth, but that's a long-term project for me 07:56:37 actually, you mean asm AND forth ;-) 07:56:46 yes 07:56:59 yeah.. the asm is a dead turnoff. 07:57:02 though I won't have to write any additional asm that doesn't already exist 07:58:58 I figure Bog created gcc to generate asm - and I'm too damned old to suffer learning all the assorted assemblers and cpu's in addition to platforms/systems/libs/linkers, etc. 07:59:04 PoppaVic: Could you please email me the latest tarball of fovm? 07:59:45 amca: thee really is none.. I shoved it to the backburner, when I realized I needed my guess.c stuff to report enough to allow for building headers and whatnot. 07:59:55 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 08:00:00 thee/there 08:00:30 hmm 08:00:36 If you look thru that rafb-post, you'll see I am testing tons of shit. 08:01:22 ..and all of it w/o my datafiles really needing to know of sh-programming or autoshit. 08:02:26 * amca nods 08:03:10 I've hidden most of it with popen/pclose and such. Admin/users can just add to the datafile(s) and let the system learn and generate whatever. 08:03:15 --- join: Raystm2_ (n=Raystm2@adsl-69-149-40-229.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 08:03:41 ..I've also (tentatively) started to add things like "devices.dat" to check. 08:03:43 What is popen again? 08:04:31 it uses pipes (socks) to run sh (or whatever) with a command - letting you capture outputs or feed input. And then you can get program-returns 08:05:18 so, yer executing a program - via whatever iscalled "sh" - and capturing data/output. 08:05:56 handy, serial method for capturing stderr/stdout and return-codes 08:07:16 So, yeah.. I am currently tying myself to unix-like systems. I figure if I keep it simple enough, folks can send me alternatives to incorporate or reject. 08:08:00 hmmm 08:10:01 Frankly, it's the umpty *nix-variants that cause us heartburn. Doze is not even of interest to me, at this point. 08:10:50 otoh, we could care less how the tests run - all we care about is the datafile formats 08:12:20 The other program (of the pair to-date) is headers.c, which will glean out everything it can about std includes and even generate std macros for testing. 08:13:05 What about making it POSIX compliant? 08:13:52 I utilize posix as I need, I could care less about MY "posix compliance". There are too many Posix versions and variants to worry much. 08:14:27 I'm not even sure what you'd mean by "POSIX compliant". 08:15:34 amca: what distro are you using? 08:15:51 POSIX is a standard for Unix so that any POSIX standard Unix variant has a certain minimal set of C libraries and functions. 08:16:02 I personally use FC3 at the moment 08:16:11 ahh, that's a really inaccurate review of Posix ;-) 08:16:22 what the heck is FC3? 08:16:50 linux? freebsd? openbsd? macosx? slutware? 08:16:52 fedora, release 3 08:16:54 linux 08:16:57 ohhh 08:17:12 ok, then I already know all this shit will build and run there ;-) 08:17:51 Why is that an innaccurate view of posix? 08:18:11 I had a guy offer to help and he's been build/run/reporting on his slutware box; so that part works fine. 08:18:47 amca: there are several variants on "posix", and - apparently due to the defs - folks can "adopt" bits from one or the other or neither. 08:19:22 --- quit: Raystm2 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 08:19:25 so, "posix compliant" is a lovely idea, but not necessarily accurate. 08:20:00 worse... it isn't worth dick for learning about the ABI anywhere. 08:20:42 hell, I can't even - at this time, with the code I have - learn about the host C calling-conventions, stack-fu or registers. 08:21:47 hmmm 08:22:45 So, I concentrate on things that would be useful in GENERATING a header, and which the program itself can't deal with WHILE compiling. 08:24:19 I may well actually end up adding code - or a program - to really generate a true header. But this seems like I'd be stepping "out of bounds", at this point. 08:24:26 --- join: Raystm2 (n=Raystm2@adsl-68-93-114-78.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 08:26:03 Sounds awefully complicated 08:27:10 it is not pretty, I agree.. But, don't ever look at the autoshit source, 08:28:44 amca: as a comparator, look for the latest version of "config.guess" sh-source.. Just for fun, (if yer interested), try to convert that hell into plain-old C. 08:29:04 ..I'd love a copy of yer C ;-) 08:29:27 Like I said, we've variants of variants on our variants. 08:37:46 * amca remains skeptical about PoppaVic's claims 08:38:15 * PoppaVic shrugs and continues - he's been around the horn more than once 08:39:34 * amca shrugs and endevours to find independant confirmation for or against. 08:39:37 :) 08:39:45 good luck 08:40:19 You think I need it? 08:41:00 yes 08:41:13 Also time and effort 08:41:32 Why do you think I need luck? :) 08:41:58 All I need is to find other people experienced at C and ask them about their experiences. 08:42:27 because I've been frustrated by it all for decades - and I program daily. So, your efforts will need to be very, very intense. 08:42:46 Why? 08:42:48 Goodness, feel free. THey'll mumble youshould use "C--" 08:44:17 amca: dude, programming is a very thick fog/art - but yer still limited to what you can learn and how. Hence, the stuff I call "autoshit" - they HAD to build it for a target, at some point. And, frankly, it's a right-mess. 08:45:50 even crc's "retroforth" asm means he had to learn THAT asm, and then port it around, and it most likely STILL won't work some places - meaning he needs more patches/fixes because the ABI is unusual, or the platform is. 08:46:01 PoppaVic: I dont disagree with your last statement. I dont see that it necessitates the amount of effort you are saying it needs to discover. 08:46:30 --- quit: Raystm2_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 08:46:50 OK.. I look forward to your results. I've been wrong before, but - bear in mind: Usually, when wrong, I end up bleeding or with stitches... I am not bleeding. ;-) 08:47:38 Let me get the stitches ;) 08:49:57 np ;-) Just send me all the "better, alternative" code ;-) 08:50:15 hehe 08:50:51 Hey! I'm easy... I COULD be wrong, but I sincerely doubt it, by this time. 08:50:54 crc: Can I ask why isnt a customised http://fcode.org/index.html ? 09:04:22 amca: I've been given an account on fcode.org 09:04:33 I intend to eventually move retroforth.org to that server 09:04:45 Ah, so it is not in your control 09:05:05 no, I have full shell access and can set up my own sites on it 09:05:18 laziness ;-) 09:05:19 Do you know why fcode doesnt have an index.html? Is fcode planned to repository Forth code? 09:05:37 * crc doesn't know exactly what fcode.org will be used for 09:05:41 crc: I'd at least crank a revectored homepage 09:05:46 PoppaVic: working on it 09:06:12 I have a lot of projects that I work on, adapting the site isn't a very high priority right now 09:06:18 I've so little access to html-servers and so little time to diddle html that I fall behind. 09:06:39 crc: yeah, I know 09:07:11 --- quit: ecraven (Remote closed the connection) 09:07:17 I'm moving away from raw html a bit, moving to a wiki-like markup syntax behind the scenes 09:07:50 I just use moz "composer", but login and copying are a pita. 09:07:57 crc: why not use a wiki implementation? 09:08:35 amca: I am, but I wrote the wiki implementation for this goal 09:08:48 Ah :) 09:16:32 * PoppaVic will finish this smoke and brew, then toddle off for chores 09:17:37 What chores ye got? 09:18:30 Chairs to 2nd floor, look for blankets & bedpads, bread-slicing to make "nibbles", read the propane-level, etc. 09:19:04 lotsa' "mickey-mouse" that _someone_ has to deal with 09:19:14 hehe 09:19:19 And you're it eh? :) 09:19:33 hopefully, today I can get the file twisted to use LL's instead of arrays, too 09:19:50 Ah 09:20:03 ..although, *sigh* the LL may be overkill unworthy of the efforts. 09:20:20 Ah well, you wont know if you dont try 09:20:30 I am right on the cusp... I figure 32 programs and arg-sets are enough for ANY tests. 09:21:22 otoh, if I change the lexer/scanner, then it WOULD make a diff. 09:21:43 wt.... 09:22:12 I posted the url, you saw what I feed the beast ;-) 09:24:47 Yeah, it made me shudder 09:25:26 intriguing.. It was simple and easy. So, I look forward to yer email and alternative-feedback. 09:26:46 So was the latest tarball you sent me pretty much up to date? 09:26:57 it was Fovm-0.1.3b.tar.gz 09:27:21 fovm is, as I said: on hold. I may just scream and use FICL4 or tathi's code 09:27:52 I do know I need a forthish-system, but not at this time. 09:28:40 If I can't interface with C, then there is no point to it, in any event. 09:28:58 anywho, stay well... Time to "do stuff" 09:29:00 --- quit: PoppaVic ("Pulls the pin...") 09:29:08 So what is the name of the project you are working on now? 09:29:13 oops 09:43:55 --- quit: amca ("d34d") 09:51:23 --- part: sketched left #forth 10:45:40 --- join: Raystm2_ (n=Raystm2@adsl-69-149-63-105.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 10:45:43 --- quit: Raystm2 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 11:42:06 --- join: Topaz (n=top@sown-85.ecs.soton.ac.uk) joined #forth 11:55:54 --- join: Raystm2 (n=Raystm2@adsl-69-149-35-16.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 12:24:47 --- join: snoopy_17 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-153-154.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 12:26:56 --- quit: Raystm2_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 12:42:04 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 12:42:10 --- nick: snoopy_17 -> Snoopy42 12:50:52 --- quit: ccfg (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 12:54:44 --- join: ccfg (n=ccfg@dsl-roigw3-feb0dc00-66.dhcp.inet.fi) joined #forth 13:39:15 --- quit: madwork (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 14:40:55 --- join: Raystm2_ (n=Raystm2@adsl-68-93-43-209.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 14:52:32 --- quit: Topaz (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 14:56:55 --- quit: Raystm2 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 16:20:35 --- join: Amanita_Virosa (n=jenni@adsl-69-154-189-66.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 16:45:20 --- quit: Amanita_Virosa ("Laptop battery is questionable.") 16:50:18 --- quit: swalters (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 16:51:17 --- quit: Raystm2_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 16:52:46 --- join: Raystm2 (n=Raystm2@adsl-69-149-46-40.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 16:56:49 --- join: slava (n=slava@CPE0080ad77a020-CM000e5cdfda14.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 17:32:41 --- join: amca (n=plump@as-bri-2-14.ozonline.com.au) joined #forth 17:43:32 --- join: Raystm2_ (n=Raystm2@adsl-69-149-53-223.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 17:53:27 --- quit: Raystm2 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 19:18:41 --- join: amca_ (n=plump@as-bri-2-58.ozonline.com.au) joined #forth 19:26:46 --- quit: amca (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 19:48:32 --- join: Raystm2 (n=Raystm2@adsl-68-93-113-134.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 19:53:36 --- join: Raystm2- (n=Raystm2@adsl-69-149-35-68.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 19:54:01 --- quit: Raystm2 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 19:54:44 --- quit: amca_ ("d34d") 20:05:52 --- quit: Raystm2_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 21:28:51 --- join: swalters (n=swalters@6532183hfc82.tampabay.res.rr.com) joined #forth 22:22:25 --- quit: swalters (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 22:52:53 --- join: swalters (n=swalters@6532183hfc82.tampabay.res.rr.com) joined #forth 23:12:54 --- quit: sproingie (Remote closed the connection) 23:32:12 --- join: aum (n=aum@60-234-156-82.bitstream.orcon.net.nz) joined #forth 23:36:36 --- quit: swalters (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/05.11.12