00:00:00 --- log: started forth/05.10.26 04:46:03 --- join: snoopy_17 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-133-137.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 04:54:32 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 04:54:46 --- nick: snoopy_17 -> Snoopy42 05:57:32 --- join: tathi (n=josh@pdpc/supporter/bronze/tathi) joined #forth 06:13:09 Hi, tathi. 06:18:58 Hi Robert 06:20:28 hello 06:22:17 --- join: Quartus (n=trailer@ansuz.pair.com) joined #forth 06:22:56 Hey, all. 06:23:30 Hi, Quartus. 06:23:35 And humulus. 06:23:56 how's life forth hakers :) 06:24:50 Not doing too terribly, humulus. How are you? 06:24:59 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pete@0-1pool66-189.nas22.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 06:25:15 Mornin' 06:26:12 fine 06:26:26 i'm not motivated to code 06:26:36 let's get some food 06:27:19 did that already :) 06:58:11 --- join: Ray_work (n=vircuser@adsl-66-139-218-131.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 06:58:16 Hi Ray. 06:58:26 Howdy, ray 06:58:30 Hi Robert 06:58:39 Hi PoppaVic 07:02:25 Hey Ray. 07:04:28 Hi Quartus 07:05:32 I re-read #c4th online log last night. 07:06:15 Looks like cf mailinglist, and the logged chat aren't being used very much, lately ( last 2 months) 07:07:03 How long before we throw the dirt on the coffin :( 07:07:37 Which is #C4th? 07:08:07 colorforth publically logged chat. 07:08:27 ahh 07:08:47 #c4th-ot is the off-topic channel and gets used quite abit, for everything other than cf. 07:09:04 I'm not really suprised, myself 07:13:36 Ray, bring ColorForth into the 19th century, re-invent the mnemonic assembler. :) 07:14:01 * Ray_work customer -- busy -- brb 07:17:52 heh... Cute. FICL/ANS and Gforth can't even argree on how to input a number, let alone prefixes 07:20:32 PoppaVic: Hehe, you may not want to look at floating point support in them then. ;) 07:20:44 I did 07:20:47 Oh. 07:20:54 Thought you were talking about integers now. 07:20:57 Even the FP-input is raggedly busted 07:22:33 It's almost amusing... No wonder folks see "Forth" as unsupported and shy off. 07:23:33 In what regard does Gforth not comply with the ANS Standard for number input? 07:23:56 When you hear a community say "bah, if you can't do it with integers it's not worth doing", yes, you generally discard the language. :) 07:24:20 They mention ANS, in the number-input section, and then deviations-from. Just as FICL seems to do in other ways. It's merely interesting. 07:24:37 Then they both have different extensions. 07:25:06 Robert: well, I've said that for years.. Using FP is like having "infinite strings" and "no limitations", for some folks 07:26:29 Robert: mind you, I have no qualms using FP when it is needed; But some folks apparently believe all numbers are floats. 07:26:32 Two systems can extend number input differently and still be entirely compliant with ANS Standard Forth. 07:28:24 PoppaVic: I tend to only use floats when they're needed, too, and like you said...sometimes they ARE needed. 07:29:03 PoppaVic: And on modern systems, it's not like fixed point math with automatic scaling is faster than floating point... 07:29:11 yep. I was doing some ballistics-stuff and had the issues arise (again).. We can talk ints/longs all day - but then yer into using libm funcs and doubles anyway 07:29:52 Robert: well, it's piggier - mostly - and it's got to be a trifle slower.. That is, to treat all values as doubles, anyway. 07:31:06 I'm using floats to represent individual bits now. :) 07:41:25 * Ray_work thinks all numbers are floates, but is impressed about using fixed point to arrive at solutions. 07:43:05 The problem is that on PCs using fixed points can be slower AND more complex than floating point. 07:43:19 Can be pretty elegant, though. 07:44:39 --- join: sproingie (i=foobar@64-121-2-59.c3-0.sfrn-ubr8.sfrn.ca.cable.rcn.com) joined #forth 07:56:50 Quartus: about the mnemonic assembler, I was thinking that.... 07:57:11 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@adsl-69-155-177-154.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net) joined #forth 07:57:16 If instead of moving the image to zero after boot and running the image, 07:57:56 couldn't i just copy the relevent portion to 0 and jump over the original, leaving it ready to he hacked on? 07:59:00 * Ray_work is thinking of using ciasdis ( computer intellengence assembler/ disassembler ) by Albert van der Hoerst to be the assembler in colorforth. ( or a cf version of such) 08:03:56 --- join: Pepe_Le_Pew (n=User@200.217.122.249) joined #forth 08:05:15 Ray_work, I think bringing the useful features of ColorForth into a system somewhat less starkly minimalist would be a good step forward. 08:05:36 why? 08:05:43 don't those systems exist? 08:05:52 can't i be the stark minimalist? 08:07:04 but yes I agree and would also like to front a cf with retro 8.2 08:07:19 this should be a neat project. 08:07:41 I've been trying to determine what my cf dependancies would be. 08:07:53 Glypher is nearly such an animal. 08:08:13 Ray_work, you were expressing dismay earlier that cf isn't more popular, and my suggestion is along those lines. 08:08:17 But Glypher is more Windows oriented. 08:08:32 Thank you, Quartus, of course your correct. 08:08:55 I can tell you it's a hard limit to me to discover that I'd need to learn the numeric Pentium opcodes to use such a system. That's a deal-breaker. 08:08:56 A cf emulation on top of retro8.2 should solve that itch. 08:09:54 That's an odd statement to me. Programming is programming no matter the language or convenience level of the language... 08:10:11 Sure it is. I'm not suggesting programming isn't programming. 08:14:09 The issue is learning CPU-specifics (the ABI) to play. 08:14:28 Not that you would need very many. 08:14:39 shouldn't matter. 08:14:42 I can't see needing more then say 20-25? and thats a lot. 08:15:16 Ray_work, that's just taking minimalism to an absurd extreme. If cf is such a wonderful Forth, it should be trivial to build a proper assembler. 08:15:18 Why does a USER need to pick from a selection-of to do the same things on multiple CPUs? 08:15:27 even then... the entire forth is an abstraction of prob'ly what 10 or less opperations? 08:16:51 I'm certain, i'm nieve, and defer to the greater experiance of the group. 08:17:53 It's - to me - a matter of abstractions and specifics. 08:18:11 Ray_work, I'm only speaking for myself. cf is, I think inarguably, minimalism taking to its complete extreme; some of that means abandoning programming conveniences first introduced in the 1950s, and although it may make for an interesting academic exercise, that's a decided barrier to my investigating it further. 08:18:20 I just don't USE "assembler" anymore... There are too many chips to suffer. 08:19:08 Ray_work, I believe it 'Hello World' I looked at with you here a few months back -- I think the first definition had an octal number embedded in it, that turned out to be a Pentium opcode. 08:19:20 colorforth doesn't even have strings 08:20:51 lambda calculus is minimalism. having to deal with all the odd little modes of asm on bare hardware and write you own device drivers to make anything work ... that's not really minimalism 08:21:15 It's minimalistic from a language-design perspective. 08:22:04 Quartus: ah yes I remember, one of the other contributors realy went the far way to do hello world. 08:22:17 my example didn't need any op codes 08:22:23 from an effort perspective. CM's one of those folks like the one in that apocryphal story who designed his program flow control around the drum timings 08:22:36 Ray_work, your example also didn't contain the readable string "Hello World". 08:22:36 bully for him. that doesn't actually indict the state of the art 08:22:46 Yes the REAL programmer story at the jargon site. 08:23:17 it very well could have, but since i understand cf -- it actually is readable to me. 08:23:56 there is string handling in colorforth --- Howerd Oakford, Roger Levy, and Terry Loveall all have contributed examples. 08:24:23 But allowing the programmer to enter the same glyphs in his app that he expects to see output later -- string support -- is a fundamental advance from 50 years ago that cf has abandoned. 08:24:29 oh forgot Mark Slicker. 08:24:57 not abandoned, just didn't quite need till somebody askes or implements... 08:25:18 ascii string-lit? I can understand trepidation over utf8 and others. 08:25:26 i'd ask for it ... but even any assembler other than the debug monitor lets me input strings 08:25:41 Doesn't cf use some internal packed format for ASCII? 08:25:58 --- quit: snowrichard ("Leaving") 08:26:04 yep, it huffman encodes everything 08:26:26 parsimony at its best 08:27:31 I prefer that the computer perform huffman encoding; having to do it myself during development isn't my idea of fun. Likewise I use a hammer to drive nails, instead of my forehead. The programming enviroment should provide a few of these useful tools. 08:27:46 it shoudn't matter how a string-lit is 'compiled' - only that you can get them in and out. 08:27:50 they are provided. 08:28:10 there are ascii to cf converters with even Chucks distribution. 08:28:22 I noticed FICL uses LZ internally. 08:28:34 Ray_work, well, where's the Hello World with "Hello World" in it? Where's a basic symbolic assembler, even just for the 20-25 instructions you think are the only ones needed? 08:29:06 I'm @work now, if you are patient, I shall find you the penultimate example. 08:29:36 Put more simply, "Hello World" shouldn't be the subject of a programming challenge. 08:29:52 Quartus: maybe for malbolge 08:30:46 Or Intercal. 08:31:25 one advantage to starting over from first principles: no legacy 08:31:46 Sure, start over. But don't stop. 08:31:56 you could if you want forget all about ascii and live in a unicode world. forget about floppy drivers. 08:32:42 Then give me unicode string handling. 08:32:50 make everything 3d, with the framebuffer just as a convenience. that sort of thing 08:33:17 methinks developing a 3d accellerated video driver in cf is not going to happen 08:34:00 * Ray_work has customers brb.... 08:34:31 I've thought about char, utf8, and wchar_t for years.. Frankly, you just can't live without ASCII unless the underlying systems all support at least utf8. What you CAN do is decide that buffers are not strings and strings are not buffers. 08:35:27 there is no underlying system in cf. the machine only knows of bytes, words, and so on 08:35:36 That essential "char*/char[]" versus "void*" or "buffer" is the kicker 08:36:00 yeah, I am sure - it's another attempt at BEING the "system", I'm sure 08:36:12 that's purely C talking. if you're dealing with utf-16, you can just say int*/int[] 08:36:33 sure, if yer using utf-16 top to bottom. 08:36:53 ..and iirc, accessing any element is not trivial. 08:36:53 and why not? 08:37:02 utf-16 is O(1) 08:37:17 I never said it wasn't a bad idea, I'm saying it'd need bottom-up support. 08:37:21 you have surrogate pairs, true, but that's considered a rendering issue. they're logically separate chars 08:37:37 utf-8 is O(n), and it's not ideal when you need speed 08:37:48 ahh, "surrogates" - back to trying to do word[12]='f', etc 08:38:21 they're logically two chars 08:39:10 you also have things like combining diacriticals. so you can't map a byte position 1-1 with a screen position. who cares? 08:39:27 The problem is that ascii is simple and cheap; and that you want a system that allows for any runes at all. 08:39:58 it simply implies that you need the underlying system to handle all that junk. 08:40:20 yep. and when you start over, you can 08:40:26 sure. 08:40:50 when you're dealing with compressed tokenized code, it hardly matters what the source representation is 08:41:02 Meanwhile, I think ASCII words and such are valid, and a "string type" can be as opaque as you like. 08:41:31 ..the idea being: the "string" is for display, even more than input. 08:41:56 the string is a convenience, and it helps to have them directly manipulable 08:42:01 not sequences of hex-encoded bytes 08:42:21 That sounded... odd. 08:42:25 Yes, they should be readable. 08:42:38 the string-as-type is just too weird for folks, though 08:42:57 Quartus: as in prompted-input "readable"? 08:43:11 Strings are nothing more than bounded and ordered sequences of characters. 08:43:15 hardly, every programmer in the world except for old-fashioned asm and C programmers treat it as a type 08:43:44 even forth tries to be abstract about exactly what a char is ... tho all i've seen tend to assume it's a byte 08:43:45 Quartus: they are currently.. Where "char" is "byte" is - well, too much is taken for granted. 08:43:51 As in human-readable. If I want the string "Befunge", that's how it's represented in the source. 08:44:12 back in the day, "byte" was kind of abstract 08:44:18 sure, and saw that as simple "ascii" 08:44:44 sproingie: not as I recall it.. Maybe in the mainframe-universe 08:45:57 if i want the string 帮人找老婆赚大钱 then it too should be represented in the source 08:46:04 yep 08:46:44 and, the way it is stored and displayed is predicated on what the source specified as the goal. 08:47:34 I've always had issues with folks and dirs/files with whitespace-embedded. Yet, html manages it in a sensible form. I know there must be a way. 08:48:13 sproingie, sure. Just don't make me pre-encode it in Huffman, or enter it in trinary, or some other pointless thing. 08:48:20 Right. 08:48:32 violent agreement here 08:48:52 Haha, using trinary. That would make a great Forth trend. 08:49:33 That "Befunge" thing.. Plain old ascii, any keyboard can access it. Now, I dunno' how that looks in german unicode - and do I care - if I don't read german and it is display-only? 08:50:07 --- quit: Pepe_Le_Pew (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 08:51:03 this is largely talking around the bigger idea 08:51:48 --- join: Pepe_Le_Pew (n=User@200.217.122.249) joined #forth 08:52:00 yep, now way around the circular-talk 08:52:07 now/no 08:53:15 The issue IS we have to interface with a planet full of runes and dialects - and ASCII for "keywords" and "numbers" still makes sense. For R/O "data" we can afford to be more generous 08:53:20 * sproingie wonders if okad even runs on cf for x86 08:53:31 what with all the embedded asm 08:53:38 ugh 08:55:39 well thankfully the indians with their base 10 and arabs with their number shapes took over, so we can force a number system on everyone more or less 08:56:21 i suppose adding in the first 6 letters of the roman alphabet for hex isn't too bad either. as for the rest tho, why have limits? 08:56:48 * PoppaVic sighs 08:56:53 Life is limits. 08:57:47 Once again, just numbers is not going to be very useful. 08:58:27 Throwing Mandarin prompts and inputting Mandarin from my keyboard is just not useful. 08:58:36 To you. 08:58:49 Yep. 08:59:14 And Mandarins will be happy - until German users run it. 08:59:26 If you're only concerned with your own backyard, why spend any time thinking of the larger solution? 08:59:40 I agree 08:59:49 There you go. You can rest now. 09:00:00 Yep, thank you so much. 09:00:27 * PoppaVic looks at the /topic 09:11:10 --- quit: PoppaVic ("Pulls the pin...") 09:35:42 yowza 09:36:19 unicode is just my pet thing about languages. i could also mention that cf probably has the same bug rf had to fix involving near and far jumps 09:36:55 but hey no one ever writes a word that's too long, they should just crash 09:39:42 what i think would be neat would be a forth environment like self. little popup editors on an infinitely large virtual desktop 09:41:50 inst this a nightmare ? 09:43:29 ok, im not geek enought... 09:45:12 hey don't look at my like if i said a blasphemy 09:50:25 * sproingie .oO( ? ) 09:50:30 * Ray_work doesn't see the point of any of this. When you wrote your forth, you delt with the string problem... 09:56:34 --- nick: Raystm2 -> nanstm 10:18:45 --- join: I440r (n=foo@adsl-70-243-97-161.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net) joined #forth 10:21:09 --- quit: Pepe_Le_Pew (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 10:23:01 --- join: Pepe_Le_Pew (n=User@200.217.122.249) joined #forth 10:28:45 --- quit: nanstm (Excess Flood) 10:28:46 --- join: Raystm2 (n=Raystm2@adsl-70-248-103-17.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 10:30:08 --- nick: Raystm2 -> nanstm 10:50:08 --- quit: Pepe_Le_Pew (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 11:44:28 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pete@0-1pool72-218.nas24.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 13:26:14 --- quit: PoppaVic ("Pulls the pin...") 13:42:33 --- quit: madwork ("?OUT OF DATA ERROR") 13:42:57 --- join: madwork (n=foo@derby.metrics.com) joined #forth 14:01:32 --- nick: nanstm -> tiff 14:26:02 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@adsl-69-155-177-154.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net) joined #forth 14:27:07 Hi. 14:27:12 Hi Robert. 15:09:05 --- quit: tathi ("hmm...") 15:09:39 --- join: tathi (n=josh@pdpc/supporter/bronze/tathi) joined #forth 15:13:39 --- quit: tiff (Excess Flood) 15:13:40 --- join: Raystm2 (n=Raystm2@adsl-70-248-103-17.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 15:14:53 --- quit: Raystm2 (Remote closed the connection) 15:15:09 --- join: Raystm2 (n=Raystm2@adsl-70-248-103-17.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 15:15:58 --- nick: Raystm2 -> tiff 15:55:26 --- join: OrngeTide (i=orange@rm-f.net) joined #forth 15:56:54 Hi 15:59:12 * sproingie plays FFX. turns out it's not so bad after you get over the really hokey intro 15:59:34 tho i've never seen so much naked religious allegory since reading CS Lewis 15:59:39 if you can even call it allegory 15:59:50 :D 16:00:12 * Robert likes the Out of the silent planet trilogy. 16:06:51 --- quit: virl (Remote closed the connection) 16:08:05 --- nick: tiff -> Raystm2 16:16:36 :) 16:27:41 --- quit: snowrichard ("Leaving") 17:15:44 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@adsl-69-155-177-154.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net) joined #forth 17:31:56 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 17:37:39 Hey all. 17:39:47 Hi, Quartus. 17:40:01 The viterbi encoding and decoding seems to be working now. 17:41:01 Neat. 17:42:06 For public consumption? 17:45:38 As soon as I'm completely finished with it. Releasing it now would just make you annoyed. :) 17:45:53 :) Ok. 17:46:04 Need to opmitise some parts (since it's really a speed-critical algorithm), and do some more testing. 17:51:03 I look forward to seeing it. 17:58:30 --- quit: Quartus (Remote closed the connection) 17:59:08 --- quit: snowrichard ("Leaving") 18:11:03 --- join: Quartus (n=trailer@ansuz.pair.com) joined #forth 18:12:34 Hey all. 18:12:44 Hi, and good night. 18:12:50 Good night. 18:14:32 --- quit: I440r (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 18:15:49 --- join: I440r (n=foo@adsl-70-243-97-161.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net) joined #forth 18:24:32 --- quit: Quartus (Remote closed the connection) 18:35:13 --- join: Quartus (n=trailer@ansuz.pair.com) joined #forth 20:09:14 --- quit: swalters (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 20:10:17 --- join: swalters (n=swalters@6532183hfc82.tampabay.res.rr.com) joined #forth 21:17:43 Robert: what's viterbi? 21:25:44 --- quit: Quartus (Remote closed the connection) 21:30:51 --- quit: madwork (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 21:30:51 --- quit: KptnKrill (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 21:30:51 --- quit: crc (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 21:30:51 --- quit: _james (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 21:30:51 --- quit: saon (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 21:31:20 --- join: crc (i=crc@pdpc/supporter/active/crc) joined #forth 21:31:20 --- join: madwork (n=foo@derby.metrics.com) joined #forth 21:31:20 --- join: KptnKrill (n=kyle@pool-70-22-161-93.bos.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 21:31:20 --- join: saon (i=1000@c-24-129-89-116.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) joined #forth 21:31:20 --- join: _james (i=jcp@adara.cs.pdx.edu) joined #forth 21:31:20 --- mode: irc.freenode.net set +o crc 21:44:49 --- quit: madwork (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 21:45:38 --- quit: _james (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 21:45:38 --- quit: KptnKrill (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 21:45:38 --- quit: saon (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 21:45:38 --- quit: crc (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 21:46:06 --- join: crc (i=crc@pdpc/supporter/active/crc) joined #forth 21:46:06 --- join: KptnKrill (n=kyle@pool-70-22-161-93.bos.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 21:46:06 --- join: saon (i=1000@c-24-129-89-116.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) joined #forth 21:46:06 --- join: _james (i=jcp@adara.cs.pdx.edu) joined #forth 21:46:06 --- mode: irc.freenode.net set +o crc 21:58:19 --- quit: sproingie (Remote closed the connection) 22:59:05 --- quit: virsys ("bah") 23:07:33 --- join: virsys (n=virsys@or-65-40-180-181.dyn.sprint-hsd.net) joined #forth 23:30:29 --- quit: virsys ("bah") 23:30:40 --- join: virsys (n=virsys@or-65-40-180-181.dyn.sprint-hsd.net) joined #forth 23:51:01 --- quit: virsys ("bah") 23:51:16 --- join: virsys (n=virsys@or-65-40-180-181.dyn.sprint-hsd.net) joined #forth 23:56:58 --- quit: virsys ("bah") 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/05.10.26