00:00:00 --- log: started forth/05.10.23
00:23:42 <JasonWoof> back
00:24:30 <JasonWoof> my immediate stuff really isn't that complex. I figure I was mostly confused about it because I was tired.
00:24:55 <JasonWoof> also my complaint was simply that (because of the way I factored it) I need a forward-branch mechanism.
00:25:15 <JasonWoof> I was hoping that I wouldn't have to make a forward branch mechanism in my cross compiler
00:26:53 <JasonWoof> I know how I will handle forward branches in my new system, and I'm rather looking forward to doing it there
00:27:21 <JasonWoof> oh well. I can just hack it
00:30:22 <JasonWoof> could cause a funny circular dependancy though
00:31:12 <JasonWoof> heh :) I'm sure it'll work fine.
00:39:55 <JasonWoof> well, it's very late. see you tomorrow
01:10:56 --- join: skylan_ (n=sjh@dialup-216-211-5-13.tbaytel.net) joined #forth
01:17:38 --- join: swalters_ (n=swalters@6532183hfc82.tampabay.res.rr.com) joined #forth
01:24:12 --- quit: skylan (Connection timed out)
04:44:10 --- join: snoopy_17 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-161-013.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth
04:52:23 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
04:52:30 --- nick: snoopy_17 -> Snoopy42
04:54:16 --- quit: tathi ("leaving")
05:42:46 --- quit: crc (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
06:06:56 --- quit: aum ()
06:31:53 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pete@0-2pool236-111.nas22.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth
06:32:38 <PoppaVic> Howdy
06:33:27 <Robert> Hi.
06:33:36 <PoppaVic> How goes it, this AM?
06:33:49 <Robert> Woke up at 3, looking forward to homework.
06:34:24 <PoppaVic> I got some email back from the Ficl author... Seems they still WANT to tinker it, but just ran out of time (for 2 years ;-).
06:34:51 <Robert> Hmm..
06:35:12 <Robert> I dreamt that I went outside to code a Forth.
06:35:15 <Robert> Odd.
06:47:17 <Quartus> A programmer going OUTSIDE? Unthinkable! :)
06:49:11 <Robert> Exactly!
06:49:26 <Robert> And going outside to _code_? On what, a Forth for some kind of "portable computer"?
06:51:23 <PoppaVic> looong extension-cords ;-)
06:51:37 <PoppaVic> Robert: Take yer Kaypro "lunchbox" ;-)
06:51:43 <Robert> Heh.
07:22:51 --- join: crc (i=crc@pool-70-110-176-222.phil.east.verizon.net) joined #forth
07:24:10 <Robert> Hi, crc 
07:32:45 * PoppaVic muses, grumbles and mumbles...
07:47:24 <Quartus> Robert, yes, what an intriguing thought, a portable Forth system :)
07:50:20 <Robert> I once had a 20 pound portable Forth system.
07:50:32 <Robert> Actually, it's still on my floor.
07:50:49 <Robert> 286 based.
07:51:01 <Quartus> The one I have is only a few ounces.  ARM-based. :)
07:51:09 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@adsl-69-155-177-154.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net) joined #forth
07:52:14 <Robert> Cheater.
07:52:17 <Robert> And hi, snowrichard.
07:52:29 <Quartus> How am I cheating? :)
07:53:12 <PoppaVic> The "portable" term is abused ;-)
07:55:49 <Robert> By using modern technology!
07:55:58 <PoppaVic> Umm.. sure
07:56:02 <Robert> Seriously, though, I'd like a more portably system myself.
07:56:18 <PoppaVic> "system" is the bruhaha
07:56:36 <Robert> It's just that I like cheap things, big keyboards, and systems that are easy to program.
07:57:03 <Quartus> I like those things too.
07:57:07 <PoppaVic> sure. ANd I've no fault with cheap-ass, replaceable boards
07:57:44 <Robert> Do you know of any?
07:57:51 <Quartus> Any what?
07:58:20 <Robert> Devices that are cheap, have real keyboards and are easily programmable.
07:59:09 <Quartus> Sure; a Palm IIIxe or Vx with a wireless folding keyboard.
07:59:14 <snowrichard> Geeks has I-macs for $149 :) 
08:06:48 <Quartus> The Vx is a beautiful device.  It had a very nice keyboard available, too.  They're available all over the place for bargain prices.
08:07:22 <Robert> What range? $50? $100? $200?
08:07:48 <Quartus> I haven't priced them recently. Let's see.
08:08:41 <Quartus> There's one up on Ebay with a keyboard & accessories, $99 USD.
08:09:12 <Quartus> That keyboard is amazing.  Opens up and snaps into a firm, full laptop-sized keyboard.
08:09:23 <PoppaVic> Yeah, I've seen them
08:09:29 <PoppaVic> Excellent idea
08:09:30 <Robert> Cool.
08:09:37 <Quartus> The current generation of wireless keyboards aren't bad, but that one was really nice.
08:10:27 <Quartus> There's a lot of five Vx's going for an opening bid of $49.
08:10:39 <PoppaVic> Doesn't matter
08:10:49 <PoppaVic> ..they won't sell for that, so it's a waste of time
08:11:06 <Quartus> Another Vx with keyboard, $49.
08:11:56 <Quartus> No, a lot of *five* of them, $49.  One auction, five devices in a bunch, $49 for the bunch.
08:12:12 <PoppaVic> Never happen ;-)
08:12:32 <Quartus> There's another one Vx with a keyboard for $49. So I guess $49 is the price-point there.  Such a nice gadget.
08:14:16 <Robert> Ah, that's a rather good price.
08:14:32 <Quartus> There's a few such combos for even less.
08:14:52 <Robert> I assume they are easy to program for?
08:15:06 <Quartus> I'm a strong proponent of Quartus Forth, not surprisingly. :) Yes, they're easy to program for.
08:15:21 <Robert> (as in, you don't need to solder stuff to circumvent Digital Rights Managment stuff they put in)
08:15:24 <Quartus> No.
08:15:27 <Quartus> Nothing like that.
08:15:38 <Quartus> Open API, well-documented.
08:16:07 <Robert> That's nice.
08:16:19 <Quartus> Using Quartus Forth, "Hello World!" is      : go  MainForm ." Hello, World!"  begin  key drop  again ;
08:16:36 <Robert> What kind of I/O ports do they have, in case I want to control external devices with it?
08:16:46 <Quartus> RS232 on that one, and also IR.
08:17:24 <Robert> Sounds pretty good.
08:17:49 <Quartus> You could certainly have a lot of fun with it.
08:18:00 <Quartus> 68000 core.
08:18:20 <Quartus> 20 MHz on the Vx, if I remember correctly.
08:18:41 <Quartus> Yes, looks like.
08:26:12 --- quit: swalters (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
08:26:13 --- quit: swalters_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
08:27:25 --- join: swalters (n=swalters@6532183hfc82.tampabay.res.rr.com) joined #forth
08:27:30 --- join: swalters_ (n=swalters@6532183hfc82.tampabay.res.rr.com) joined #forth
08:31:40 <PoppaVic> hmm.. Maybe I'm lost... Are dcell math-ops optional?
08:32:10 --- quit: Quartus (Remote closed the connection)
08:32:10 <PoppaVic> and, what is the current "format" of entering a double?
08:54:04 --- join: swalter__ (n=swalters@6532183hfc82.tampabay.res.rr.com) joined #forth
09:00:34 --- quit: snowrichard ("Leaving")
09:37:16 --- quit: madgarden ("?OUT OF DATA  ERROR")
09:44:23 --- join: madgarden (n=madgarde@Toronto-HSE-ppp3708444.sympatico.ca) joined #forth
09:56:59 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@adsl-69-155-177-154.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net) joined #forth
09:58:18 --- quit: snowrichard (Client Quit)
10:07:07 --- join: tathi (n=josh@pdpc/supporter/bronze/tathi) joined #forth
10:34:22 --- join: OrngeTide (i=orange@rm-f.net) joined #forth
10:34:53 --- join: PoppaVic__ (n=pete@0-2pool236-13.nas22.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth
10:34:59 --- quit: PoppaVic (Nick collision from services.)
10:35:01 --- nick: PoppaVic__ -> PoppaVic
10:36:57 --- mode: ChanServ set +o crc
10:37:05 <PoppaVic> wb
10:53:59 --- quit: PoppaVic ("Pulls the pin...")
11:14:13 --- nick: skylan_ -> skylan
11:18:49 --- join: Quartus (n=trailer@ansuz.pair.com) joined #forth
11:19:05 <Quartus> Hey all.
11:19:09 <Robert> Hi, Quartus.
11:23:11 <JasonWoof> wb Quartus 
11:23:30 <JasonWoof> wow, just had an idea about forward calls that I really like so far
11:23:54 <JasonWoof> given that my source is a databases of definitions
11:24:19 <JasonWoof> I can reference forward by name, but if it hasn't been compiled yet then I don't know the CFA
11:24:35 <JasonWoof> I can do it the slow way:
11:24:44 <JasonWoof> : f-foo ['] foo execute ;
11:25:57 <JasonWoof> (assuming a ['] that gives a reference to the dict header, not the CFA it's self
11:27:35 <JasonWoof> Here's how I'd like it to look (asciiized)
11:27:37 <JasonWoof> : f-foo [ ' foo forward-call
11:27:37 <JasonWoof> : bar f-foo ;
11:27:37 <JasonWoof> : foo bar ;
11:28:54 <JasonWoof> so it's just a matter of how I code forward-call
11:29:33 <JasonWoof> what I did in herkforth, was simply make it (at runtime) overwrite the definition of f-foo to call foo
11:31:35 <JasonWoof> hmmm... maybe this conflicts with tail-call optomization or others
11:31:53 <JasonWoof> but it would be very cool if it could patch the call in bar to go directly to foo
11:34:16 <JasonWoof> I may make a flag in the assembler that says that optomizations (eg tail-call) should not modify previous things (because of a THEN or other branch target)
11:34:38 <JasonWoof> in herkforth I didn't bother with that, so "then ;" is a bug
11:35:00 <JasonWoof> to me (with the conditional exits and such) "then ;" is silly anyway
11:35:32 <JasonWoof> : foo 2 =if 2 * then ;
11:35:42 <JasonWoof> should be written:   : foo 2 <>; 2 * ;
11:36:44 <JasonWoof> but that is a restriction I don't wish to impose on others
11:36:59 <JasonWoof> I'm trying very hard in my design to make the number of things you need to know to program in my system down
11:37:33 <Quartus> Eliminating caveats is always good.
11:37:36 <JasonWoof> it can be very frustrating when learning a new system to have a bug that is because of some weird eccentricity of the system and not your "fault"
11:40:15 <JasonWoof> another option of course would be to detect "then ;" and tell the user it needs to be changed
11:40:24 <JasonWoof> or at least flag it in some way
11:40:40 <JasonWoof> eg make it red or something in the editor
11:41:34 <Quartus> You can't compensate for it internally?
11:41:49 <JasonWoof> I think I'd rather just hack the compiler to deal with it
11:42:02 <Quartus> i.e. not optimize for tail-jump unless the control-flow stack is empty, or some such?
11:42:29 <JasonWoof> don't think you can learn anything from the control-flow stack
11:42:40 <JasonWoof> it'd have to be a flag or something I think
11:43:44 <JasonWoof> but I may be able to do it with very little complexity. Since the flag could also say if the last instruction is a call, and thus iliminate the need for tail-call optomization to dissassemble backwards (which I'm not sure it can do with 100% accuracy)
11:44:35 <Quartus> I was thinking about that. Your token-packing in the vm means some added complexity elsewhere. Is it really a significant space-savings over one byte/opcode?
11:44:40 <Quartus> Considering alignment, etc.
11:45:19 <Quartus> The other side of that question: is the space savings (assuming there is such) worth the hassle?
11:45:30 <Quartus> Are you working in that constrained of an environment?
11:46:06 <JasonWoof> with alignment, you have to pack into words anyway
11:46:38 <JasonWoof> the compiler would work the same way if it was 8 bit opcodes
11:48:40 <JasonWoof> I don't think I've run into any added complexity between putting 5 6-bit codes in a word than 4 8-bit codes
11:48:51 <JasonWoof> there's a bit extra to squeeze htat 6th one in
11:48:54 <JasonWoof> but I think that's really fun
12:43:01 --- quit: virsys (Connection timed out)
13:18:58 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@adsl-69-155-177-154.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net) joined #forth
13:29:50 <JasonWoof> is this right?
13:30:25 <JasonWoof> : postpone ' lit postpone compile-call ;
13:32:14 <JasonWoof> can't be
13:33:07 <JasonWoof> gah!
13:33:28 <JasonWoof> it looks horribly recursive
13:33:49 <JasonWoof> but it's immediate
13:40:03 --- join: Topaz (n=top@sown-89.ecs.soton.ac.uk) joined #forth
13:42:28 <Robert> Hi, AVR-er.
13:42:38 <Robert> What does "ac" stand for in "ac.uk"?
13:53:30 <JasonWoof> ok, finished writing my compiler and dependancy compiler
13:53:35 <JasonWoof> now to get it to work...
13:53:55 <JasonWoof> well, at least part of the compiler is tested and working
13:54:22 <JasonWoof> but more importantly... I'm hungry
13:58:37 <tathi> Robert: looks like it means university.
13:58:39 <tathi> http://www.nominet.org.uk/ReferenceDocuments/Rules/Rules.html
13:58:45 <tathi> search for "6. Appendices"
14:01:25 <Robert> Yeah, I thought so. I'm just wondering what "ac" stands for. Thanks anyway. :)
14:07:40 <tathi> yeah, I didn't see anything explaining why "ac".
14:09:17 <tathi> hmm...ACademic maybe?
14:09:46 <Robert> Hm, could be.
14:19:14 --- join: virsys (n=virsys@or-65-40-180-181.dyn.sprint-hsd.net) joined #forth
14:24:48 --- join: TheBlueWizard (i=TheBlueW@ts001d0577.wdc-dc.xod.concentric.net) joined #forth
14:25:45 <Robert> Hi, virsys and TheBlueWizard.
14:26:09 <TheBlueWizard> hiya Robert
14:56:37 --- join: T0paz (n=top@sown-85.ecs.soton.ac.uk) joined #forth
14:59:13 --- quit: Topaz (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
14:59:43 --- quit: T0paz (Client Quit)
15:08:45 <TheBlueWizard> gotta go...bye
15:08:52 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth
15:39:42 <JasonWoof> </errands>
15:41:03 <JasonWoof> "dressed only in clothes, from her head to her toes"
15:50:14 --- quit: virl (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
15:51:45 <Robert> Heh.
16:03:15 <Raystm2> This thought thought that thier this there then that thier this that.
16:40:20 --- nick: skylan -> skylan_
16:40:37 --- nick: skylan_ -> skylan
16:57:42 --- quit: tathi ("leaving")
16:57:58 --- quit: Raystm2 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
18:41:38 --- quit: snowrichard ("Leaving")
19:29:41 --- join: Raystm2 (n=Raystm2@adsl-70-248-103-17.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth
19:30:04 --- quit: Raystm2 (Remote closed the connection)
19:30:19 --- join: Raystm2 (n=Raystm2@adsl-70-248-103-17.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth
19:35:39 --- join: aum (n=aum@60-234-156-82.bitstream.orcon.net.nz) joined #forth
20:07:40 --- quit: virsys (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
21:21:56 --- join: humulus_ (n=humulus@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at) joined #forth
21:28:44 --- quit: humulus (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
21:44:26 --- join: sproingie (i=foobar@64-121-2-59.c3-0.sfrn-ubr8.sfrn.ca.cable.rcn.com) joined #forth
21:57:39 --- join: sw_lter__ (n=swalters@6532183hfc82.tampabay.res.rr.com) joined #forth
22:06:27 --- join: virsys (n=virsys@or-65-40-180-181.dyn.sprint-hsd.net) joined #forth
22:59:43 --- quit: sproingie (Remote closed the connection)
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/05.10.23