00:00:00 --- log: started forth/05.10.20 00:50:45 --- quit: snowrichard ("Leaving") 02:08:00 --- join: warpzero (n=warpzero@wza.us) joined #forth 02:11:06 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@adsl-69-155-177-154.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net) joined #forth 02:18:28 --- quit: snowrichard ("Leaving") 02:27:46 --- join: Megzl (n=megz@vnnyca-cuda1-cablebdl-70-34-222-38.vnnyca.adelphia.net) joined #forth 02:42:01 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@adsl-69-155-177-154.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net) joined #forth 02:42:23 --- quit: snowrichard (Client Quit) 02:43:04 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@adsl-69-155-177-154.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net) joined #forth 02:47:56 --- quit: snowrichard (Client Quit) 03:36:05 --- join: humulus (n=humulus@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at) joined #forth 03:36:33 hello anybody here, one question 03:37:17 what i want is to output $FFFF as -1 how do i do that? 03:46:18 one question from me 03:46:22 Why are you using FORTH? 03:47:33 what's the purpose of that question, to implemenent a ppc disassembler for gforth :) 03:52:58 Why on earth would you do that? 03:53:31 cuz it's not avalaible yet 03:53:53 an to get a bachelors degree :) 03:55:54 is that a satisfing answer :) 03:58:33 Megzl: why do you use forth? 04:09:45 humulus: try this definition of "." : . dup $ffff = if drop -1 then s>d d. ; 04:21:57 crc: stupid question i don't like to RTFM , even i have a RTFM tshirt on, if the condition is false then "drop -1" is executed ? 04:25:07 I don't use forth. 04:25:16 I just came here to see what kind of freaks actually use such an insane thing. 04:25:57 The part I don't understand is: 04:26:40 How do you 'get into forth instead of haskell' ?? How do you end up getting into forth instead of scheme? instead of dylan? instead of ML? Instead of python? perl? ruby? lisp? 04:26:43 It seems kind of arbitrary. 04:27:47 It seems like a completely arbitrary decision to pick Forth as something that's cool, instead of Ocaml. 04:28:08 like a roll of the dice or something 04:30:09 well i use python for testing purposes :) 04:42:37 --- join: snoopy_17 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-166-031.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 04:43:06 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Nick collision from services.) 04:43:08 --- nick: snoopy_17 -> Snoopy42 05:37:55 --- quit: swalters (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 05:56:18 --- nick: Raystm2 -> nanstm 06:19:53 good morning Megzl: You'll find that the programmers here use all of those languages, AND forth. 06:21:49 BTW: All of those languages can be written in forth, and be very tight. I don't believe you can go the other way as tightly. 06:23:36 as far as arcane: I might hazzad that forth runs on more computers then all of the other languages you've mentioned, combined. 06:45:09 --- join: virl (n=hmpf@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at) joined #forth 06:57:44 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pete@0-2pool198-29.nas30.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 06:58:06 Howdy 07:00:44 hi PoppaVic :) 07:00:56 hi ray - how goes it? 07:01:36 i'm in a private chat with wife working out who gets the car when next week. It's touch and go, could go either way... 07:02:00 Aww, Tell her to get her own car! ;-) 07:02:43 hehe 07:02:58 Tell her, interesting concept, hehehe 07:03:16 Well, the 'tell' is easy - I know they never listen, however 07:03:31 That's what she says about me. 07:03:58 ahh, I merely have "selective hearing": since about 90% of what _my_ wife sez is just noise 07:04:23 line noise, yes. 07:04:35 i gave in. we have an agreement. 07:04:52 Ahh, you have a compromise: She wins. 07:08:46 lol and true. 07:09:02 we have concensus! 07:09:20 The unspoken rules, win out the day. 07:09:53 and the ring on my finger gets a little tighter. 07:10:19 I never bothered with a damned ring 07:12:12 i've lost so much weight, i'm afraid i'm gonna lose my ring. 07:12:30 well, you can always get it put in yer nose! ;-) 07:16:42 I never understood Americans doing that. I can see other cultures, but Americans getting rings in the nose... that's just a nasty mess, imnsho. 07:17:27 it'd git in da way o' my pickin' finger. 07:17:37 I've seen lately (on the news) at least a half-dozen morons with silver balls sticking out of shins or cheeks, too - Frankly, people just disturb me. 07:17:58 chins - not shins 07:18:01 right 07:18:05 and agreed 07:18:26 Of course, I feel about the same about tatoo's 07:18:28 just a bunch of animals, convinced that they are not. 07:18:32 ya. 07:19:02 I figure life itself is going to scar you enough for a lifetime, so why be even more stupid? 07:19:10 hahahaha 07:19:38 ..and, no one ever takes me up on my offer of mounting a dorrknob on their head... Folks are weird. 07:19:49 nice cov ersavtion about wives by husbands who by the way sane the same thing about you guys 07:19:49 lol 07:19:55 hi PoppaVic 07:20:04 meet the wife. 07:20:08 howdy 07:20:09 hi sweetie 07:20:38 hi 07:20:52 lol at you guys 07:24:43 BTW, ray.. Figured out HOW to get the new Gforth to build - but it immediately screws up all double-number math ;-) 07:25:03 ill leave so you can "talk" hehe 07:25:11 no biggue 07:25:15 nice to meet ya PoppaVic 07:25:20 and thee 07:25:26 hehe ok 07:25:35 teasin Ray_work 07:26:04 have to pick on him sometimes to keep him in line 07:26:12 Now, when I use doubles in the new build, all inputs are off by a factor of ten ;-) 07:26:19 nanstm: suuuuurreee ;-) 07:27:50 your son is fianely playing open mic today 07:29:15 PoppaVic: YEA! and inputs are off by a factor of ten, is a little over my head. 07:29:26 . 07:29:27 07:29:33 nanstm: cool gotta see that. 07:29:50 well, configure set the size of longlong to zero, I set it to 8 and at least it builds and runs 07:30:12 ah, okay. and yes that is great. 07:30:48 I decided against installing it though: it'd take more experimenting or tinkering to puzzle out why it doesn't want to play-well-with-others 07:32:23 Also, I've about concluded that my "issues" over this vm are prolly due to the scope and sub-issues.. Cogitation seems to suggest it's more a "metacompiler" than a mere compiler. 07:34:21 I see. wish I could be of more depth to you, but i'm still novice. 07:34:40 Np. It's my own damned fault ;-) 07:34:49 * Ray_work learning forth from the colorforth perspective. 07:35:23 But i learn alot from your conversations with the grand populi 07:36:00 Yeah.. Some days, the mind is awash in probabilities and potential solutions. 07:36:33 :) that seems to be the greatest problem with forth, you could do almost anything, almost any way. 07:37:07 and forthers tend to be systems programmers rather then applications programmers, or so I feel. 07:37:07 yep - which means idiots can endrun deliberate limitations. 07:37:24 hehe 07:37:43 possibly true. It used to be a truism that Forth was usually the first language ported to any new platform. 07:38:25 bbiab, Nature screams - and I need a beerrun 07:38:27 --- quit: PoppaVic ("Pulls the pin...") 08:06:49 --- join: JasonWoof (n=jason@pdpc/supporter/student/Herkamire) joined #forth 08:06:49 --- mode: ChanServ set +o JasonWoof 08:18:49 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pete@0-1pool66-12.nas22.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 08:19:13 Chores, pretty lil' chores 09:51:33 i used to drink beer. I'm waiting for the teenagers to move out before I start back up. 09:52:11 Beer follows coffee, and I cant imagine life w/o 09:53:04 * Robert drinks neither. 09:53:10 But..tea..mmm. :) 09:53:16 I don't drink either neither. 09:53:17 :) 09:53:54 but I do drink a MONSTER high tech caffein drink with 100% of all the vitamins and minerals I don't get from my diet. 09:54:30 ugh 09:54:33 Aha. How is your diet special? 09:54:38 then water ( flavored ) the rest of the day. 09:54:44 arg 09:54:51 well, I was able to loose 75 lbs 09:55:08 I currently weigh 148 09:55:22 took about 4-5 years to loose all that 09:55:30 Ah! Congratulations. 09:55:33 thanks 09:55:34 :) 09:55:50 the monster drink is a recent addition to my plan tho. 09:56:11 gah - spare me 09:56:16 before that, it was otc vitamins and DR Pepper. 09:56:40 I used to drink 2+ pots of coffee a day - nowadays, I can't manage more than 1/2 pot per day 09:57:07 ya, I know people like that. I make a 42 cup pot at work for my manager. 09:57:44 --- join: OrngeTide (i=orange@rm-f.net) joined #forth 09:57:57 well, it's for walkin customers too.... 09:58:04 but the manager gets most of it. 09:58:06 and, since I went "retired", I wake up to coffee, switch to beer before noon, and then drink mostly water the rest of the day 09:58:18 I see. 09:58:31 My step mom starts the beer about 10:30 09:58:35 I never liked sacking out after drinking anyway 09:58:43 and goes on like the energizer bunny 09:58:47 ya 09:59:02 ..so, enjoy it earlier, and then just cruise the day and sleep well 09:59:10 dad brings home a case and will have to go out for more, most days, or so I recall. 09:59:28 yeah, a case lasts ~3 days 09:59:49 that's a good idea. It's much more legal then other libations, and done your way, not to abusive. 09:59:56 too even 10:00:03 Still, I just hate drinking in the evening - before bed. 10:00:13 brb... groceries 10:00:20 okay :) 10:09:41 * PoppaVic screams in frustration and pain 10:10:37 ouch 10:11:41 * PoppaVic sighs 10:11:54 hit your knee getting up? 10:12:15 OK, the whole project is thretened. 10:13:01 No.. Ma' can't get in her own damned freezer, and then when I made a further stash downstairs here, I got the thumb between freezer and reefer doors 10:13:54 yikes. ouch in sympathy 10:14:12 I was fine, just peeved - until the thumb.. 10:14:25 and with out your thumb, the whole project will have to be spacebarless. 10:14:38 I think I gotta' draft a sib or two and we'll need to switch reefers. 10:14:45 ah 10:15:14 ..There is just no reason not to make Ma' as independent as possible, even if I DO leech - er "live" - here. 10:15:45 * PoppaVic sighs 10:16:33 otherwise, I might as well do all the shopping as well as the cooking... And, I can't see an adult, let alone a senior accepting that w/o massive depression. 10:16:54 shit 10:21:23 ok.. back to my current irritation.. I keep thinking "interpreter+metacompiler". 10:24:16 interpret source; Generate: executable, portable-bytecode; Generate nativecode, via portable-code. 10:24:30 * PoppaVic sighs 10:24:39 It's a boggle, to be sure 10:26:27 The latter certainly seems to be mostly xlation to C or asm or something.. A filter/translator. 10:27:01 the former suggests nothing other than an interpreter and a gap for pcode. 10:28:36 I think our typical view of "source" is just plain skewed. 10:28:44 I came in late, and never really knew the goal of the project. I understand it stems from work that JasonWoof and tathi started... 10:29:08 nah, I just borrowed a few ideas from tathi 10:29:12 I see. 10:29:29 but the goal... is it multi-platform multi-language? 10:29:47 sorta like the Parrot? 10:30:11 I began with the idea of a "metabuilder" - to supplant GNU autoshit - and I've always liked Forth. 10:30:47 oh okay, i'm unaware of autoshit. 10:31:41 I think our major problems are: 1) we really lack a true ABI and "portable source"; 2) Autofoo requires learning about 4 languages; 3) "shell" - like 'make' suggests about 4 variants each. 10:32:19 GNU "autotools" - text over m4 over sh - and then all the problems those imply PLUS. 10:33:24 * Ray_work googles GNU autotools 10:35:20 it will rot yer mind 10:36:02 I see that :) 10:36:09 m4 is something like a "must install" tool that converts textA into textB 10:36:16 okay I believe I have a better handle on your goal. 10:36:23 Yeah. 10:37:03 Nothing Forth can't do, let alone C or local-asm, but it's all a clusterfuck 10:37:14 right, i get that. 10:38:12 So, I want to cobble-up a variant that is "most portable" and can deal with text, macros and generation... Feed A to B to C to - whatever 10:38:52 Folks can't envision that forth is a compiler AND interpreter.. As a language, it's unusual. 10:40:03 ya hehe, colorforth adds an editor in the mix 10:40:05 I won't fault system-CD's, autoshit and GNU installs alla' tarballs, .deb or .rpm. We NEED that for systemic-installs. 10:40:50 But, I refuse to believe that programmers in N languages need to learn at least four more to port their shit. 10:41:06 lol 10:41:19 scratch that itch. 10:41:52 Near as I can tell, "asm" is still "asm for this platform/cpu" - and C is "per-platform, (and forget the abi)" 10:42:33 ..and other languages are worse - or cross-compiled from a decent system to a limp 'native'. 10:43:35 I dunno' why, but Forthish is simply not accepted as a method to get source from A to B and run, let alone compile into native-code. 10:44:13 I'm beginning to think it might be entirely an artifact of the dual-stack "think" 10:44:40 I can see limitations to that mode in everything I cobble. 10:45:03 hmm. 10:45:31 It's like trusting asm-programmers to port code between cpu PLUS platforms 10:46:05 We need the right combination of abstraction is all 10:47:13 My basic premise is that we must have at least a C cross-compiler. And, if it is gcc (generating asm), that's even better. Folks can't understand that GCC is basicaly a Metacompiler. 10:48:20 Even suggesting 'C' suggests we need a way to get from our own source into C. 10:48:38 ..and also implies we can execute our own pcode 10:50:28 Ray_work: as you might now imagine, this is why I've been such a prick and even flogged "the lads" over mmap. 10:50:47 not to distract you, but I keep comming back to Patriots Ignite chip, that runs like four languages. Is that something that could act as an example to what you want to do, only you do it in software? 10:51:39 Yes, the whole idea sems to come down to a posix-C "emulator" underlying the rest. 10:51:54 ..never seen their url and behavior, thought 10:54:23 Basically, we want to generate pcode that is universally emulatable - and we would WANT (demand) that we could plugin solutions and rock. 10:55:00 nativecode plugins just make for more space and speed (we hope) 10:55:45 I never liked the idea of forever xmitting/recieving and then RECOMPILING source. 10:56:25 I might be wrong, but it seems to me that a decent pcode-interpreter/engine is the key point. 10:56:41 I see. 10:56:46 great point as well. 10:57:16 Tathi all but convinced me we need to emulate a stack-engine. But, frankly - it's not playng out well. 10:58:33 I'd rather see a codified "stack frame" than support N stacks and N versions of access to/from. 11:03:32 I'm just not sure how to resolve it cleanly and in a portable manner. 11:05:53 I'm actually beginning to believe we could benefit from "prototypes"/"declarations" and "definitions". 11:08:06 'typing' is also becoming suggestive 11:09:09 Our biggie is: "extensible", followed by "immediate" versus ""compilable" 11:09:42 Oh, and "incremental" should cover the mass of it. 11:09:45 * JasonWoof picks his teeth 11:10:20 JasonWoof: heh - use low-carbon steel ;-) 11:12:44 ouch 11:12:55 I still maintain that the idea of wordlists, vocs and words - all extensible - are the kicker-component of forthish.. Using a stack for arglists/returns is secondary, but both snuff everything else out there. 11:13:33 Anyway, I gotta' shuffle off and cobble dinner. Talk to you all tomorrow. 11:13:37 --- quit: PoppaVic ("Pulls the pin...") 11:21:37 whoosh! 11:22:15 Er..right. 11:23:10 me thinks 11:24:01 me thinks PoppaVic has severe featuritis 11:27:10 Just maybe. :) 11:39:49 let's build something with all the buzzwords in it! 12:07:59 I think it's been done. 12:10:17 Convince lilo to install a buzzword filter. Any buzzwords caught will end up being replaced by random entries from a Swahili dictionary. 12:47:33 which do you guys use ? 12:47:38 +forth 12:47:42 i use gforth :) 12:48:02 Usually isForth or one I wrote. 12:48:22 gforth rarely. 12:48:40 Robert: which did you write? 12:49:31 The only x86 and general-purpose one is this: http://www.robos.org/?tforth 12:50:52 I use Quartus Forth, perhaps unsurprisingly. :) On the desktop I commonly use Gforth. 12:51:59 curently i work on gforth but my supervisor is gone for 4 days and i seem to have some problems 12:53:37 Are those three things connected in some way? 12:54:00 they are 12:54:22 Go on. 12:54:25 cuz hopefully he knows the answer to my problems :) 12:57:03 Your problems, being..? 13:02:23 Robert: right now i am not in the mood to talk about it, too much beer and so :) 13:02:30 Heh. 13:02:36 some other day :) 13:02:51 I just thought you were here to ask about the problem. 13:03:04 (most people do that when they mention having Forth-related problems in here) 13:03:44 Robert: actually i asked already :) 13:03:50 i will do so :) 13:06:02 What, how to output $ffff as -1? 13:06:13 Ah, I see it now. 13:06:40 You want to sign-extend a 16-bit integer? 13:08:06 right :) 13:08:42 Ah. 13:08:51 in forth intergers have a cell size 13:09:10 that may the problem and there is nothing like a short 13:09:30 : extend dup $8000 and if $ffff0000 or then ; 13:09:35 I think that should do it. 13:09:51 It will. 13:09:53 $ffff extend . -1 ok 13:10:06 Not bad - I got something right. 13:10:17 extend is there word like that ? 13:10:25 let's check it out 13:10:27 humulus, are you very new to Forth? 13:10:31 No, that is the definition of that word. 13:11:07 "extend" may have Forth-specific meanings, I suppose, I just couldn't think of a better name. CWD seemed a bit cryptic. :) 13:11:52 Quartus: i am not really new, but never did that stuff ;) 13:13:50 can we discuss that tomorow ? 13:13:58 : extend dup $8000 and if $ffff0000 or then ; is a very definition. Give it a try. 13:14:03 +simple 13:14:27 well i check it out tomorow :) 13:14:52 i'm currenty workin on a disassembler for ppc in gforth 13:15:02 If you can't do bit magic while on drugs you shouldn't be a programmer. 13:15:02 and assembler too 13:15:50 that's not polite ;o) 13:17:11 Hey, this is #forth! 13:17:17 (OK, just kidding about that) 13:17:23 i know 13:17:32 same time tomorow :) 13:18:10 i know that this is #forth that's why i'm here :) 13:44:37 --- quit: OrngeTide ("bye") 13:57:05 humulus? who are you? new here? 15:14:49 --- join: zoly (n=l@tor/session/x-0abf353ac765f91b) joined #forth 15:15:01 'evening 15:15:23 Hi, zoly. 15:15:30 hi robert 15:15:37 Quartus: ping 15:15:37 --- nick: nanstm -> tiff 15:15:41 Hi zoly. 15:15:53 hi. 15:15:57 What's up? 15:16:13 this would be wrong, right? : hello . "Hello world" ; 15:16:31 Right, it's wrong. 15:16:41 you may want to point it out to http://www.palmpower.com/issues/issue200004/quartus002.html 15:17:16 That's an old article; nobody's ever pointed out the error before. I wonder if they'd change it. 15:17:56 i only came across it by accident. but such typographic errors have the tendency to jump into my eyes 15:18:42 Good catch. 15:18:50 i should get me some error-reflective sun shades 15:18:53 The paragraph above it is in error too. 15:20:09 "...using the '.' word as in..." that part? 15:20:17 Right. 15:20:43 seems they didn't verify their article, by simply testing it 15:21:00 It's very rare that magazines get articles with code in them right. 15:21:14 The people responsible for setting the illustrations never know the programming language, and introduce stupidities. 15:22:23 "this space looks a bit strange here... it is probably not meant to be here, let's remove it" 15:23:01 Something like that. I've had perhaps one magazine article published without any significant errors. 15:23:11 "and in order to make the whole thing look a bit less crammed, let's put it .... here." 15:47:43 --- nick: tiff -> Raystm2 15:50:11 Quartus: try code as graphic captures 15:50:43 (and hope they don't just type it over) 15:56:18 I'm a major proponent to propper punctiation of "Hello, world!" 15:57:08 * zoly is a major proponent to proper spelling of proper 16:02:53 yeah, I suppose I should spell stuff right even if it's a stupid spelling 16:03:56 Why bother, we're gonna need a new world wide web language anyway, your spelling just might be valid. 16:04:23 we'll base the wwwdict. on word count. 16:04:45 Raystm2: teach that to the Forth 16:04:56 english is becoming the international language 16:05:10 lojban would be great if everybody learned it 16:05:11 hi zoly :) 16:05:16 but I don't think they will 16:05:17 if i do : proper .... ; and try to call it with 42 propper , the interpreter will barf at me 16:05:29 hi Raystm2 16:05:47 Wait... English is _becoming_ the international language? 16:06:00 * Robert thought it was. 16:06:13 "is" works for me 16:06:15 you'll still have to use the proper proper for proper to work, but you can always ADD_WWW>LANG and propper will work propperly. 16:06:24 Robert: nah, it is the temporary international language 16:06:36 agreed 16:06:43 To be replaced by what? 16:06:52 It's too hard to teach to people in many cultures. 16:06:54 chinese? 16:06:54 if you think that there is an "international language" then I think english would be it 16:07:00 We don't wanna be exclusive. 16:07:03 interlingua? 16:07:11 English is certainly the international language as relates to the sciences. 16:07:19 pidgin mondial 16:07:26 Quartus: and free software 16:07:58 Quartus: ... to technical science ... 16:08:10 There's non-technical science? 16:08:18 such as medical science 16:09:12 medical esperanto still seems to be footed in latin language 16:09:27 Astrology? non tech? maybe it is tech? 16:09:36 not science tho. 16:09:41 there's also biological science. about the same 16:10:05 The terms in a given field may have other roots, but discussion of those subjects is predominantly in English. 16:11:47 english has an advantage over many other languages, which is, it is easy to learn. 16:12:05 even though the expressive power is a bit limited 16:12:30 I don't believe it's easy to learn english. 16:12:51 zoly, my experience suggests the opposite -- it's one of the hardest languages to learn, second perhaps only to Chinese, and it's extraordinarily expressive when used by someone who knows it well. 16:12:56 maybe to learn the 800 or so words that most English speakers use predominantly... 16:13:18 Quartus: what other languages do you know? 16:13:40 See Dick run. Jane is not happy with Dick. 16:13:56 Jane is bicoastal. 16:14:10 there is possibly Spanish which may be easier than English. Not taking artificial languages into account. 16:14:34 The whole thing needs to be re-thought. 16:14:38 Spanish, French, and Esperanto. I'm not speaking of my own experience with learning English, as it's my native tongue; I'm referring to the stated experiences of those coming to English from other languages. 16:15:20 If people thought like the Forth compiler.... it would be easier.... 16:15:32 would you really consider French to be easier than English? 16:15:43 Yes, it's more regular. 16:15:44 I would 16:16:05 zoly, out of curiousity, what languages do you consider more expressive than English? 16:16:19 English knows about 900 irregular verbs, French has about 2400 16:16:25 It's the language of diplomacy, do to it's specificity of word usage. 16:16:39 do=due yike 16:16:42 +s 16:17:10 may a quote a famous American: My philological studies have satisfied me that a gifted person ought to learn English (barring spelling and pronouncing) in thirty hours, French in thirty days, and German in thirty years. 16:17:27 :D 16:17:30 zoly, I've never read stats on the two languages as regards irregular verbs, but it seems to me that French irregular verbs fit into a smaller number of groups than do those in English. 16:17:39 full text can be found here: http://www.teuton.org/~bob/german.html 16:18:00 zoly, that sounds like someone for whom English was his native tongue. 16:18:22 And who didn't learn languages easily. :) 16:18:41 Quartus: i would consider for example French as one of the more expressive languages. 16:18:49 zoly, based on what? 16:20:15 Quartus: from my own observations, knowing both English and French, while my native lang is a different one. 16:20:33 Quartus: i picked French because you know that one too 16:20:48 Coming from English as a native language, I find French no more expressive, but certainly more verbose. 16:21:12 ir allows for more nuances 16:21:39 Can you give an example? 16:27:34 In fact I find French resembles medieval English. 16:28:47 Let us bow our heads for languages no-longer in usage, and how we havn't missed the best one, somehow, along the way. 16:36:38 A data-point for verbosity: of Quartus Forth's various international versions, the ranking (from most to least verbose) is: Spanish, Portuguese, French, German, Russian, Dutch, Norwegian, Malay, Swedish, and English. 16:37:03 Hooray for Swedish! 16:39:30 That's by character count. By word count, it's Portuguese, Spanish, French, Russian, Malay, German, Norwegian, Dutch, English, Swedish. 16:39:47 Again, hooray for Swedish. 16:40:06 * Raystm2 kisses Swedish wife in tribute. 16:40:07 I'm a bit surprised that English is #2, though. 16:40:13 :) 16:40:30 Quartus: maybe a good example would be the large numbers of words taken from French, hardly changed at all, while English doesn't provide comfortable equivalents to those words. 16:40:37 It feels as if English splits every other Swedish word in two, or sometimes more. 16:40:41 zoly, such as? 16:40:58 Robert, this is a very limited sample, of course. 16:41:48 The transposition of Portuguese and Spanish in the word-count is the result of a difference of one word. 16:42:00 age, baggage, ... there's about 10000 French words in English 16:42:22 zoly, yes, and those words virtually always carry their original meanings, as do the words French adopted from Latin, etc. 16:42:46 but those are used within a simplified grammar corset 16:42:56 You've lost me there, I'm afraid. 16:43:14 If a grammar needs a corset, it's just eating too much and should exercise more. :) 16:43:19 prepare for relevent pasteing 16:43:31 with your permission...? 16:43:38 Paste away. 16:43:44 thank you 16:43:49 The English Language. Have you ever wondered why foreigners have trouble with the English Language?. Let's face it. English is a crazy language. There is no egg in the eggplant No ham in the hamburger. And neither pine nor apple in the pineapple. 16:44:05 English muffins were not invented in England. French fries were not invented in France. We sometimes take English for granted But if we examine its paradoxes we find that Quicksand takes you down slowly, Boxing rings are square. And a guinea pig is neither from Guinea nor is it a pig 16:44:07 --- join: tathi (n=josh@pdpc/supporter/bronze/tathi) joined #forth 16:44:26 Ah, this. Yes I've read this. Nouns and names are often convoluted, not just in English but in any language. 16:44:32 If writers write, how come fingers don't fing. If the plural of tooth is teeth. Shouldn't the plural of phone booth be phone beeth, If the teacher taught, Why didn't the preacher praught. If 16:44:48 a vegetarian eats vegetables. What the does a humanitarian eat? Why do people recite at a play, Yet play at a recital? Park on driveways and Drive on parkways. You have to marvel at the unique lunacy. Of a language where a house can burn up as it burns down. 16:44:53 Quartus: i may have mentioned Latin instead, if i would know Latin better, and you would have said that you knew it 16:45:05 And in which you fill in a form by filling it out. And a bell is only heard once it goes! English was invented by people, not computers, and it reflects the creativity of the human race (Which of course isn't a race at all) That is why when the stars are out they are visible, but when the lights are out they are invisible, and why it is that when I wind 16:45:13 I know some Latin, zoly, but I wouldn't try to cheat Nero at cards. 16:45:18 up my watch it starts, but when I wind up this observation, it ends. 16:45:22 end paste 16:45:44 Raystm2, sure -- English has many adopted words and rule-sets that apply to only parts of the language. 16:45:52 That's what makes it hard to learn. 16:46:10 Amen. 16:47:24 "Park on driveways and Drive on parkways" 16:47:31 zoly, are you suggesting that the presence of adopted words in a language mean that language is not sufficiently expressive? 16:48:57 How do I say what I need to say here..... :) 16:50:43 yes 16:51:07 Quartus: partly. if lending words from other languages goes along with losing some of the source language, yes. what is lost in English when lending nouns, for example, is to distinguish identically written nouns by their gender, as there ain't such thing as different genders in English nouns, 16:51:41 leading to overloading words, requiring more context to figure out what is actually meant 16:52:24 there are two noun genders in French, three even in German. 16:52:36 We have four. Yay. 16:52:49 good to know that 16:53:30 Those genders to definitely not help learning a language, but they do help expressive power when handling the language 16:53:56 it's dropped and implied in english, 16:56:13 Robert: what are the four cases in Swedish? 16:58:31 Noun genders? 16:59:07 In that case, the same in German with the addition of another neuter gender. 16:59:24 In almost all grammar, only two variants are used though, so it's considerably less complex than German in the end. 16:59:26 "positive" and "negative" neuter? 16:59:49 I think we call them "ultrum" and "neutrum". 16:59:57 what a stunning concept :) 17:01:02 --- quit: Jim7J1AJH (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 17:04:39 Funny, I would describe Nan as ultrum and definately not neutrum, so I concur. 17:12:13 Robert: does swedish support creation of new words by combining existing words? 17:12:41 such as "Waffenstillstandsverhandlungen" 17:12:48 :) 17:13:06 Vapenstillestaandsfoerhandlingar. 17:13:17 : newword word1 word2 word3 ; 17:13:24 Heh. 17:13:38 great 17:16:35 You can do it in English, iff you add `anation' to the end of the contrived word. 17:16:51 weaponresttalks 17:16:57 Hehe. 17:17:12 weaponresttalkation? 17:17:25 weaponresttalkanation? 17:17:41 that's it but both may be correct. 17:18:13 one would probably understand it, but i doubt that's actually used routinely in English 17:18:44 I'm sure it was a device in more than one tv show. 17:19:22 tvshow ... 17:19:26 like on Alien Anation :) hehe 17:21:42 shopclosingtime 17:23:55 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 17:50:09 --- join: sproingie (i=foobar@64-121-2-59.c3-0.sfrn-ubr8.sfrn.ca.cable.rcn.com) joined #forth 18:06:01 --- join: aum (n=aum@60-234-156-82.bitstream.orcon.net.nz) joined #forth 19:16:24 --- join: swalters (n=swalters@6532183hfc82.tampabay.res.rr.com) joined #forth 19:22:19 --- join: easy4 (n=easy4@pcp0010474571pcs.reding01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 19:24:51 --- join: swalters_ (n=swalters@6532183hfc82.tampabay.res.rr.com) joined #forth 19:26:13 --- quit: swalters (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 19:36:13 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@adsl-69-155-177-154.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net) joined #forth 19:46:06 hey all. 19:46:33 <_james> hi 19:46:43 Hi, _james. 19:47:38 What's up? 19:49:11 --- quit: swalters_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 19:49:12 <_james> not a lot 19:50:24 What's your involvement with Forth, _james? 19:58:21 --- quit: snowrichard ("Leaving") 20:01:31 <_james> hobbyist 20:01:46 <_james> you? 20:07:06 --- join: I440r (n=foo@adsl-70-243-97-161.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net) joined #forth 20:07:06 --- quit: I440r (Client Quit) 20:07:36 --- join: I440r (n=foo@adsl-70-243-97-161.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net) joined #forth 20:09:48 --- join: swalters_ (n=swalters@6532183hfc82.tampabay.res.rr.com) joined #forth 20:23:19 Oops, sorry -- was looking the other way. :) I'm a commercial Forth vendor. 20:31:56 --- quit: swalters_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 20:53:07 Further to the earlier conversation, the Quartus Forth translations ranked by longest string in each: Portuguese, Malay, Russian, French, German, Spanish, Norwegian, Dutch, Swedish, English. 20:57:32 --- join: swalters_ (n=swalters@6532183hfc82.tampabay.res.rr.com) joined #forth 20:58:21 longest same word ???? heh 20:58:29 No, longest message. 20:58:45 :) 20:58:51 well i gtg zzz now 20:58:58 got work 2morrow! 20:59:10 cya 21:13:37 --- quit: swalters_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 21:16:01 So the overall average from the three weightings, most-verbose to least: Portuguese, Spanish, French, Russian, Malay, German, Norwegian, Dutch, Swedish, English. 21:16:08 Again, a very small sample. 21:22:34 --- quit: virl (Remote closed the connection) 21:42:43 --- join: swalters_ (n=swalters@6532183hfc82.tampabay.res.rr.com) joined #forth 21:53:00 --- quit: zoly (Remote closed the connection) 22:02:35 --- quit: easy4 () 22:23:35 --- quit: virsys (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 22:45:04 --- join: virsys (n=virsys@or-65-40-180-181.dyn.sprint-hsd.net) joined #forth 22:48:44 --- join: Megz (n=zrosp@vnnyca-cuda1-cablebdl-70-34-222-38.vnnyca.adelphia.net) joined #forth 22:49:55 --- quit: saon ("Lost terminal") 22:51:20 --- join: saon (i=1000@c-24-129-89-116.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) joined #forth 23:01:51 --- quit: Megzl (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 23:02:12 --- quit: Megz (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 23:02:13 --- quit: Robert (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 23:02:13 --- quit: _james (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 23:02:13 --- quit: crc (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 23:02:14 --- quit: sproingie (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 23:02:14 --- quit: JasonWoof (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 23:02:15 --- quit: ccfg (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 23:02:15 --- quit: swalters_ (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 23:02:15 --- quit: I440r (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 23:02:16 --- quit: Ray_work (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 23:02:16 --- quit: Quartus (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 23:02:16 --- quit: saon (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 23:02:16 --- quit: warpzero (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 23:07:17 --- join: saon (n=saon@c-24-129-89-116.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) joined #forth 23:08:03 --- join: Quartus (n=trailer@ansuz.pair.com) joined #forth 23:09:13 --- quit: saon (Killed by sagan.freenode.net (Nick collision)) 23:10:21 --- join: JasonWoof (n=jason@pdpc/supporter/student/Herkamire) joined #forth 23:10:21 --- join: sproingie (i=foobar@64-121-2-59.c3-0.sfrn-ubr8.sfrn.ca.cable.rcn.com) joined #forth 23:10:21 --- join: ccfg (n=ccfg@dsl-roigw3-feb0dc00-66.dhcp.inet.fi) joined #forth 23:10:21 --- mode: irc.freenode.net set +o JasonWoof 23:10:41 --- join: swalters_ (n=swalters@65.32.183.82) joined #forth 23:11:00 --- quit: sproingie (Remote closed the connection) 23:13:29 --- quit: ccfg (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 23:13:29 --- quit: JasonWoof (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 23:19:15 --- join: crc (i=crc@pdpc/supporter/active/crc) joined #forth 23:19:15 --- join: saon_ (i=1000@c-24-129-89-116.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) joined #forth 23:19:15 --- join: Megz (n=zrosp@vnnyca-cuda1-cablebdl-70-34-222-38.vnnyca.adelphia.net) joined #forth 23:19:15 --- join: Robert (n=robert@unaffiliated/robert) joined #forth 23:19:15 --- join: _james (i=jcp@adara.cs.pdx.edu) joined #forth 23:19:15 --- mode: irc.freenode.net set +o crc 23:20:50 --- join: JasonWoof (n=jason@pdpc/supporter/student/Herkamire) joined #forth 23:20:50 --- join: ccfg (n=ccfg@dsl-roigw3-feb0dc00-66.dhcp.inet.fi) joined #forth 23:20:50 --- join: I440r (n=foo@adsl-70-243-97-161.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net) joined #forth 23:20:50 --- join: warpzero (n=warpzero@wza.us) joined #forth 23:20:50 --- join: Ray_work (n=vircuser@adsl-65-68-201-18.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 23:20:50 --- mode: irc.freenode.net set +o JasonWoof 23:28:15 --- nick: saon_ -> saon 23:34:39 --- nick: swalters_ -> swalters 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/05.10.20