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07:38:03 <PoppaVic> Howdy
07:39:20 <Robert> Hi
07:39:38 <sproingie> dammit
07:39:47 <PoppaVic> what?
07:39:51 <sproingie> i'm finally giving up in disgust with firefox
07:40:00 <PoppaVic> heh
07:40:14 <sproingie> but i can't find an irc client other than chatzilla that doesn't make me just hate it passionately
07:40:33 <PoppaVic> I've liked xchat for years
07:40:40 <PoppaVic> ..their code nearly sucks, but it works
07:40:57 <sproingie> i suppose.  all of the kde irc clients suck immensely
07:41:14 <PoppaVic> busted guis or too-gooey?
07:41:16 <sproingie> konversation wouldn't be so bad, but it crashes all the time
07:41:28 <sproingie> kvirc is ugly and clunky as sin.  it actually flickers
07:41:57 <sproingie> ksirc always sorts the channels, doesn't let me use my own order, and it won't even hilight lines with my name in it
07:42:13 <sproingie> it's based on sirc, so i could try extending it in perl.  that interface is 100% undocumented
07:42:28 <PoppaVic> I'd definitely suggest xchat - mostly, it works
07:42:59 <sproingie> kopete is ... well it's actually ok, but weird to set up since it's actually an IM client
07:43:27 <sproingie> ok, gonna come back with xchat
07:43:31 <sproingie> brb
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07:46:37 <sproingie> bloody hell, xchat also sorts the channel tabs
07:46:45 <sproingie> what idiot thought this was a good idea?
07:46:56 <PoppaVic> which version?
07:47:07 <sproingie> also, how do i switch tabs without the mouse?
07:47:13 <sproingie> 2.4.4
07:47:34 <PoppaVic> well, the X11 version used to let you tab-switch (see settings)
07:47:48 <PoppaVic> I never use the macosx version anymore
07:48:48 <PoppaVic> settings->pref->tabs->sort_tabs, etc
07:49:12 <sproingie> ah, i can turn off tab sorting.  i still don't see anything to switch them
07:49:26 <PoppaVic> I think we used to alt-tab
07:49:44 <PoppaVic> or maybectrl-tab?
07:50:01 <sproingie> alt-tab of course switches apps.  ctrl-tab does nothing
07:50:20 <PoppaVic> shift-alt? I know it used to work
07:54:37 <sproingie> alt-# seems to work, good enough for me
07:55:07 <PoppaVic> hmm, not for me - but, shit - used to the mouse for swapping
07:55:49 * PoppaVic is NEVER goingto warm to the powerbook "keyboard"
07:56:28 <sproingie> when i irc, i like to stay away from the mouse
07:56:56 <PoppaVic> I keep running about 3+ gui-programs (at least one termwin)
07:57:10 <sproingie> xchat seems all right tho. can still talk while preferences are up
07:57:20 <PoppaVic> sure
08:03:35 <sproingie> xchat it is.  can't complain too much about it being a gtk app when my last client was a freakin xul app
08:03:43 <sproingie> and a gtk app on top of that
08:03:44 <PoppaVic> heh
08:04:15 <sproingie> in fact it's actually using my kde theme now and and not plastikfox
08:21:09 <virl> freakin xul, who uses it, would be interesting? I only know it from mozilla but anybody else?
08:22:15 <sproingie> xul has its uses, though for most cases it's really overengineered
08:23:34 <sproingie> firefox of course uses xul for everything.  any decently complex plugin takes advantage of it.  theres a few standalone apps that use it
08:23:36 <sproingie> like chatzilla
08:24:01 <sproingie> xul's good when you want to be able to hack and override just about anything in the GUI
08:24:20 <sproingie> it's definitely not the only route to go, but it works
08:24:51 <PoppaVic> Never toyed with it
08:25:18 <sproingie> i've only read the poor excuse for docs.  ran away screaming.
08:25:41 <sproingie> it's ugly as sin.  but has its uses
08:28:15 <PoppaVic> Everytime I hear of a lib/app like that, I can't help but wonder wtf is wrong with writing a decent interface.
08:29:47 <sproingie> it's a gui toolkit, not an interface itself
08:30:02 <PoppaVic> akin to glade?
08:30:22 <sproingie> tho there is a penchant in the geek community for creating half-baked tools instead of real solutions
08:31:02 <sproingie> xul's a bit like glade in a way, yeah
08:31:25 <sproingie> no gui front-end as far as i know, but it reads a xml spec of the gui and builds it from there
08:32:04 <sproingie> that approach is hardly unique, wxwidgets does that, even java does it now
08:33:04 <sproingie> xul has just a bit weirder architecture
08:36:14 <PoppaVic> Living in XML is nearly as bad as living int GTK
08:36:41 <sproingie> it's not so bad if you have a decent editor for it
08:37:05 <sproingie> which excludes about 90% of the crappy xml editors out there
08:37:41 <sproingie> most of them have a brain dead structure tree on the left that uses the tag name
08:38:03 <sproingie> so if you're editing a doc, you have a bunch of identical top level nodes called "chapter" and a bunch under them called "paragraph"
08:38:07 <sproingie> gee how informative
08:38:20 <PoppaVic> he
08:38:55 <sproingie> i haven't found a single one that lets me use a stinking attribute, let alone an xpath expression to display instead of the tagname
08:39:33 <sproingie> well not unless i want to spend a thousand bucks for something like xmlspy, for which i'd no doubt have to write a thousand lines of spec or so to customize the interface
08:40:03 <sproingie> a whole industry popping up around editors for a simple data format.  how ludicrous.
08:40:18 <PoppaVic> yep, tis why I never bother
08:40:54 <sproingie> got an app that needs extensible structured data.  xml was suggested, i skipped right to a rdbms
08:42:06 <PoppaVic> Folks recommend XML for a huge variety of silly things... And, then you need special tools to create the xml or load the silly stuff.
08:42:19 <sproingie> i'd like to see xml handle defaults the way i do:  create view rules_all as select name, type, score, coalesce(score / 2, min_score), coalesce(score * 1.5, max_score) from rules left join rule_overrides
08:42:26 <PoppaVic> ..and the loaders tend to be monsters that generate in-memory trees.
08:42:42 <sproingie> incidentally that sql statement is why i don't bother with unfunny jokes like mysql
08:43:19 * sproingie forgot to show the left join criteria but you get the idea
08:43:29 <sproingie> i kind of wish there was such a thing as a natural outer join
08:43:50 <PoppaVic> I forget which proj I was - oh, my reloading stuff.. I finally concluded XML was prolly a good thing to generate text from binary on A to pass to platform B to regenerate binary.
08:43:50 <sproingie> but natural joins are ultimately kind of an evil hack shortcut
08:44:24 <PoppaVic> I never did puzzle out the use of ANY sql system I installed.
08:44:52 <sproingie> xml is great as an interchange format. it's best when you never actually have to see it
08:45:00 <PoppaVic> I agree
08:45:05 <sproingie> eek, i gotta get going, gonna be late
08:45:08 * sproingie waves
08:45:14 <PoppaVic> tootles
08:53:46 <PoppaVic> back later.. I'm writing too much new confusion...
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09:02:03 <snowrichard> morning
09:06:08 <Robert> Hi, snowrichard.
09:06:47 <snowrichard> HI.  I downloaded yet another forth yesterday.  it is a vm called SOD32 from the netherlands.
09:07:54 <Robert> I've never heard of that
09:08:31 <snowrichard> packs 5 instructions in 1 word, with an optional return, or else it is a call or branch
09:09:33 <snowrichard> it has a cross-compiler, you can recompile the whole system from forth source (except the VM which is C or Gnu Assembler.
09:10:29 <Robert> That sounds nice.
09:10:55 <Robert> Compact code...
09:12:12 <snowrichard> there is also an instruction called special which you can use to add specific instructions written in C (to get around the 5 bit opcode limitation). 
09:15:53 <snowrichard> or rather 6 instructions in 1 word :) 
09:16:26 <snowrichard> 30 bits for the instructions 1 for the return -- low order 2 bits indicate instruction type.
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12:10:27 <Quartus> Hey all.
12:12:29 <Quartus> I see that SOD32 is written by the same twit who wrote the fake interview with Moore.
12:15:38 <Robert> Heh.
12:17:46 <Quartus> He also apparently collects lunchboxes. The same one, over, and over, in different colors.
12:19:08 <Robert> I can't say I'm overly surprised to hear that.
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13:34:00 <PoppaVic> Well, hell.. Called it Knight on the chores, but my head is still unable to resolve the address-issue.
13:45:52 <PoppaVic> I'm beginning to think we need a 'absolute address' stack, visible to opcodes and NOT to users.
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13:57:28 * arke peeks left
13:57:31 * arke peeks right
13:57:35 <arke> nope, nobody I need to talk to.
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14:42:19 <PoppaVic> Hi amca
14:42:33 <amca|email> Hi Poppa
14:42:48 <amca|email> How goes it this morn?
14:42:54 <PoppaVic> do yer email, we can talk shortly.
14:43:54 <amca|email> I have a lot of email to catch up on, so if you wanna queue some Qs or comments or whatever, feel free, Ill just have a lot of brain lag :)
14:44:31 <PoppaVic> nah, feel free to shoot me an email, though: I think I got a handle on the tail of this mutahafucka
14:45:01 <PoppaVic> a week of tinkering is displaying some interesting data
14:45:10 <amca|email> sweet
14:45:53 <PoppaVic> Yeah, dipping down to pseudo-assembler has suggested a 3rd stack - and tinkering in there has suggested that RS is not even used at this level.
14:47:22 <amca|email> well you could use the RS as the 3rd stack at that level couldnt you?
14:47:51 <PoppaVic> nah, too dangerous: trying to conceal any Absolute-addresses from all externalized code
14:48:53 <amca|email> What is the 3rd stack?
14:50:27 <PoppaVic> RS (returns) DS(data) A(absolute addresses)
14:51:51 <PoppaVic> This suggests an ARGstack, an INTERNALstack, and a RetuernStack (for colon-interfacing)
14:52:43 <amca|email> hmmm
14:53:03 <PoppaVic> Yeah.. It opens the door on a few other questions/lemons/issues
14:53:42 <amca|email> Well the Internal stack would just be the machines personal stack, like the i386's SP.
14:53:47 <amca|email> Wouldnt it?
14:54:03 <PoppaVic> yes
14:54:24 <PoppaVic> But, we need far more descrimination/racism therein
14:54:55 <PoppaVic> the data (arg) stack is just args - bytes, shorts, cells, handles - whatever
14:55:55 <amca|email> Well for the Internal stack, you shouldnt worry about it. Just define the inputs and outputs for Primative words and let the implementer deal with how it does the assembly stuff, to make it more portable
14:55:57 <PoppaVic> So, the DS is the supra, intra-level, arg-passing stack
14:56:18 <PoppaVic> amca|email: ahh, but it gets complicated at the level I'm tinkering
14:56:56 <amca|email> Well then something is wrong with the design I think
14:57:02 <PoppaVic> no.
14:57:09 <amca|email> At each level, it shouldnt have to be more complicated than it needs to be
14:57:11 <PoppaVic> I'm getting UNDER forth and OVER C
14:57:52 <PoppaVic> I agree that we are experimenting in territory that is generally ignored.
14:58:26 <amca|email> OVER C?
14:58:34 <amca|email> Forth is under C
14:58:58 <PoppaVic> over C - you can't ascertain the ABI in any reliable fashion.
14:59:16 <amca|email> ABI is under C
14:59:30 <amca|email> ABI is the particular implementation of C
14:59:34 <PoppaVic> and forth is not (generally) generating asm/abi-level info to feed C or asm
14:59:36 <amca|email> hence under
14:59:39 <PoppaVic> no
14:59:55 * amca|email shrugs
14:59:58 <amca|email> Well I disagree
15:00:00 <PoppaVic> ABI underlays C and is around the asm-level
15:00:06 <amca|email> Yes
15:00:06 <PoppaVic> so'k, feel free
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15:00:26 <amca|email> What is with fetch[1-8]?
15:01:18 <PoppaVic> opcodes to fetch byte-sets to dstack to stack via handle
15:01:42 <amca|email> wtf?
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15:02:04 <PoppaVic> we consume an absolute address to push data-types unto the datastack
15:07:30 <amca|email> Im gonna have to investigate it more clearly before I say any more on it. I have been busy getting my life in order, so I havent looked at that code yet still, sorry
15:07:57 <PoppaVic> Not an issue, I'll fight my end - you fight yers and we'll talk at a later date.
15:08:44 * amca|email nods
15:08:50 <amca|email> How have things been otherwise?
15:09:10 <PoppaVic> busy.. THis code has been driving me nuts, and chores of course.
15:10:09 <amca|email> hehe
15:10:10 <PoppaVic> BUT, I think I see the tunnel-end, (once I clear more debris), then I can get serious on Metabuilder
15:10:31 <amca|email> Ive actually been able to get myself exercising in the mornings which is good
15:11:08 <PoppaVic> I gotta' split, in case kids are callin' ma. I'll be back in the AM - shoot me an email! ;-)
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15:11:33 <Quartus> Hey all.
15:12:27 <amca|email> Hiya Quartus 
15:12:36 <Quartus> Hey. What's up?
15:14:16 <amca|email> Been looking after myself, and it has been paying off
15:14:43 <amca|email> Can I assume it wasnt a coincidence that you announced your presence after Poppa left? :)
15:15:35 <Quartus> I just came back to the terminal.  I didn't see him leave.
15:16:07 <amca|email> Ah
15:16:10 <amca|email> heh
15:16:19 <amca|email> ISo what have you been up to?
15:16:35 <Quartus> Cingular helpfully inserted a bug into the Treo 650 that breaks some of my code, so I've been working around that.
15:17:35 <amca|email> Treo 650?
15:17:44 <Quartus> It's a Palm device, also a phone.
15:17:51 <amca|email> Ah
15:18:11 <amca|email> Treo is a Cingular product?
15:18:11 <Quartus> I aim for across-the-board compatibility.
15:18:34 <Quartus> Treo is a Palm product, Cingular is a wireless carrier who has customized the OS in certain ways.
15:18:44 <amca|email> I see
15:20:26 <amca|email> What bug did they introduce?
15:21:47 <Quartus> They send a custom launchcode to all apps at reset time.  The OS should never do this; custom launchcodes are for apps to use with each other, and there's a newer mechanism called 'notifications' that supplants all of that anyway.
15:22:15 <Quartus> Some of my code isn't anticipating ever receiving a custom launchcode, so there are problems.  I've worked around it, but what a pain!
15:22:48 <amca|email> ah
15:22:55 <amca|email> nasty
15:23:04 <Quartus> I'm not even sure it's any kind of valid launchcode anyway; it's bizarrely high in value, and I think it might be an outright bug.
15:25:03 <amca|email> hmm
15:25:12 <amca|email> Is it close to the highest possible value?
15:25:20 <amca|email> Or does it look to be totally aribitary?
15:26:19 <Quartus> It's arbitrary.  But I've just found it in the older Treo 600 header files. These files are embarassing to read -- embarassing for Cingular. They violated protocol in a number of places, and have comments right in there saying so, and saying that it's too late now that the devices are out in the field.
15:26:51 <amca|email> shit
15:27:01 <amca|email> stupid/lazy idiots
15:27:36 <Quartus> Good grief.  So the code is (hex) abae.  You know why it's abae?  Because that's one higher than abad.  Which used to be 2bad, but that's not a valid custom code, so they changed it to abad.  '2bad'.  Some dumb twit developer thought he was being clever.
15:28:07 <amca|email> pfft
15:28:11 <Quartus> None of this explains why this code is being sent to all apps at reset time, but perhaps there's an explanation for that in here too.
15:28:29 <amca|email> Maybe so they know it  is on a Teo system?
15:28:46 <Quartus> Here's everything I've found:
15:28:46 <Quartus> #define phnLibLaunchCmdRegister		0xabae	  /**< Sent to application to register with GSM library 
15:28:59 <Quartus> You now know as much as I do.
15:30:10 <amca|email> I see
15:30:11 <amca|email> lol
15:30:29 <Quartus> It looks very much like that launchcmd shouldn't be arriving unless you request it.  Which I don't.
15:30:51 * amca|email nods
15:31:08 <Quartus> Anyway, that was no fun to track down, and now I'm issuing updates to various apps.
15:31:20 * amca|email nods
15:33:12 <Quartus> No doubt the same idiot who came up with '2bad' is the one who made it send the code to all apps at reset, and the same one who opens all his C comments  '/**<'
15:33:34 <amca|email> O_o
15:37:36 <Quartus> #define	phnLibLaunchCmdEvent	 	0xabad	/**< Phone Event notification. Used
15:37:42 <Quartus> to be 0x2bad, which is less than
15:37:50 <Quartus> Palm's custom base. Have to get
15:37:50 <Quartus> 											  Palm to allow that.
15:38:06 <Quartus> That should have a resignation letter attached to it.
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15:47:11 <amca|email> hehe
15:47:20 <amca|email> Cant disagree with you there
15:48:38 <Quartus> What a thundering boob.
15:48:50 <amca|email> hehe
15:49:17 <amca|email> He probably though he was "2 k3w1!"
15:51:35 <amca|email> bye!
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18:27:52 <sproingie> 2 legit 2 quit, 0x2bad
18:31:45 <Quartus> word.
18:32:05 <Quartus> Few people have annoyed me so much by doing so little.
18:36:05 <sproingie> that's a quotable
18:37:28 <Quartus> Feel free to use it. "Neal Bridges" is the attribution. :)
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20:28:52 <sproingie> BTW, the reason for the funky launch code is pretty obvious
20:29:01 <sproingie> it's so their apps won't work on any other vendor's phone
20:30:56 <Quartus> sproingie, perhaps -- but it's not meant to be sent to any app that doesn't request it.  
20:32:28 <Quartus> In fact the code gets sent normally when a phone event occurs -- a call coming in, for instance.
20:35:28 <sproingie> so maybe they wanted to break all other apps.  beats me
20:36:07 <Quartus> It's clear from reading the header files that they don't have the best and brightest working on things, and complying with normal Palm OS conventions and requirements is not job #1.
20:36:16 <sproingie> looks like treos are moving to pocketpc now anyway.  what a nightmare
20:36:58 <sproingie> gotta love it when your phone won't answer a call because of a modal dialog that's stuck
20:37:05 <Quartus> One phone will be Windows Mobile, next year.  I don't know if they plan to do both, or switch the Treos over.  If the Cingular 650 is any indication, I'll be glad not to have to support them from a Palm OS standpoint.
20:37:58 <sproingie> i suppose now that palm has spun off the actual OS, they should diversify
20:38:04 <Quartus> That's the standing Windows Mobile joke. "I'll have to call you back, my phone crashed."
20:38:56 * sproingie has a nokia.  symbian all the way.  not that symbian seems all that impressive
20:39:13 <sproingie> takes ages to boot my phone.  what a joke.
20:39:43 <Quartus> Yes, I think phones should be phones.  I carry a Blackberry, and even that much convergence isn't ideal.
20:40:26 <sproingie> old-fashioned blackberry or the new kind with the crummy keyboard?
20:40:53 <Quartus> You mean the phone-keypad type keyboard? Not that one.  The full keyboard version.
20:41:09 <sproingie> the old ones are pretty decent for what they do.  not great as phones, but ok (being able to call a number right out of email is nice)
20:41:36 <Quartus> Yes. The phone suffers from being a kind of afterthought, though.
20:41:46 <sproingie> yah.  lousy form factor
20:43:18 <Quartus> The form factor isn't such an issue for me -- but the software integration of the phone isn't perfect. And the audio quality isn't amazing either.
20:45:37 <sproingie> indeed.  good for email.  come to think of it it's mostly just the wheelie thingie i like
20:46:27 <Quartus> The wheelie is handy.
20:52:44 <sproingie> that and they're nigh indestructable
20:53:07 <sproingie> as my girlfriend can attest, having dropped hers onto concrete a number of times
20:53:26 <Quartus> True, mine's spun-out a few times. :)
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23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/05.10.13