00:00:00 --- log: started forth/05.10.06 02:02:03 --- quit: warpzero ("leaving") 02:02:16 --- join: warpzero (n=warpzero@wza.us) joined #forth 02:45:02 --- quit: Amanita_Virosa ("slips out quietly.") 03:20:47 --- join: Topaz (n=top@cerberus.saywell.net) joined #forth 03:37:37 --- join: aum (n=aum@60-234-156-82.bitstream.orcon.net.nz) joined #forth 03:57:35 --- join: rostling (n=rostling@grey-01.nada.kth.se) joined #forth 04:06:22 --- quit: Topaz (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 04:11:32 --- quit: rostling ("leaving") 05:47:59 --- nick: Raystm2 -> nanstm 05:56:35 --- join: Pepe_Le_Pew (n=User@20132167207.user.veloxzone.com.br) joined #forth 05:57:00 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pete@0-2pool236-26.nas22.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 05:57:36 Mornin' 06:23:30 --- quit: aum () 06:35:57 --- join: virl (n=hmpf@62.178.85.149) joined #forth 06:36:13 Hi 06:38:40 Howdy 06:50:29 --- join: sproingie (i=foobar@64-121-2-59.c3-0.sfrn-ubr8.sfrn.ca.cable.rcn.com) joined #forth 07:09:18 shit, what a crapday 07:38:46 --- join: tathi (n=josh@pdpc/supporter/bronze/tathi) joined #forth 07:39:09 * Ray_work log note time fixed from 21:00 to 9:36 by ras 07:40:23 morning PoppaVic morning tathi morning Robert morning sproingie. 07:40:28 Hey Ray. 07:40:35 morning Quartus :) 07:40:37 sorry :) 07:40:43 nearly missed you there. 07:40:45 No worries, just got here. 07:41:52 oooh yikes Morining nanstm ( sheesh, don't for get the love of my life there...) 07:43:19 * Ray_work loads Quartus' last paste bin, as I have stolen a free moment. 07:44:06 yikes taking forever to load on this lame @work_machine. 07:44:07 I threw in an alternate method that I actually like less, but it uses the picnum facility so perhaps will give aardvarx some perspective on the problem. 07:44:17 cool. 07:44:38 1/3 loaded.............. 07:45:02 may have to wait till I get home. 07:45:08 odd, it's not a heavy page., 07:45:26 AH ! Eureka know my problem. 07:45:44 wrong browser, funny IE won't work in this config. 07:46:18 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 07:46:18 there 07:46:35 firefox has it instantly. 07:47:07 someday, I'm gonna have to learn forth. 07:47:28 Given that you spend so much time in #forth, it's probably sensible. :) 07:47:59 I try to get the perspective of 1xforth vs 10xforth... :) hehe 07:48:19 I did my best to factor that -- seven plus/minus two conceptual units per word, good naming, etc. 07:48:21 tease tease 07:49:25 I could better factor the alternate method, though. 07:50:42 Anton Ertl, for some reason, found my b18chess, and while chastizing me, said many things I may never understand. 07:50:54 Curious. In a forum? 07:51:08 ya in c.l.f 07:52:17 I was reminded of that by your usage here of " true (if)" 07:52:36 for some reason he wanted me to start b18chess with that construct. 07:52:59 http://pastebin.com/385009 07:53:03 That's factored better. 07:53:12 Ray, why? 07:53:37 * virl wonders why Ray_work things he can't code in forth 07:54:36 FURTHER PROOF that I should do nothing before coffee! Ok, for aarkvarx sake, here's the latest: http://pastebin.com/385011 07:54:43 You know virl, in a language devoted to factoring, I'm sometime supprised that forthers stop where they do, and use all those ans constructs. 07:55:09 they confuse me to no end. 07:55:11 Ray, I stop when I'm down to the aforementioned 7 +/- 2 idiomatic blocks. 07:55:55 the ANS constructs come from common usage. there's only so many reasonable ways to write IF, and some people would like it to be portable 07:55:56 true [IF] is a null operator, except that it will skip over a later [ELSE] [THEN] block. 07:56:04 I imagine, readability and the need to fix ancient code is a primary factor. 07:56:29 Take, for instance, : digit> ( char -- digit ) [char] 0 - dup 9 > 7 and - ; 07:56:32 I wouldn't factor that further. 07:56:32 there were downright WARS in the FIG newsletters long ago, about looping and such 07:57:21 i'm sorry I missed all those great convo's and take it on faith that greater minds then mine have come to consession. 07:57:40 Anything specific you have in mind about it, Ray? 07:57:48 not at this time. 07:58:02 Thought maybe there is a specific construct you're thinking of. 07:58:07 * sproingie much prefers recursion to most looping 07:58:08 I dunno' if they ever really reached consensus... Everyone had/has ideas and forth makes a cheap testbed. 07:58:29 hmm ... it's time for the daily xell commercial.. #xell for streaming and domain specific applications .. you're worth it... 07:58:31 that most forthers considered recursion to be some ivory tower egghead construct only made me question their intelligence 07:58:44 i mean, how advanced a concept is "tail calls are jumps"? 07:58:52 sproingie: recursion, in forth, seems a lot more trivial than most other languages 07:59:12 no it's pretty trivial in other languages too 07:59:16 working with at least 2 stacks is prolly the reason 07:59:21 sproingie, yes I haven't run into any Forthers who found recursion a tough one to follow. I've added a tail-recurse to Quartus Forth recently. 07:59:32 inductive solutions that use recursion can be pretty mind-bendy 07:59:44 but inductive solutions in general are. not all recursion is induction 08:01:30 oh yikes Quartus! please take no notice of my statements. i'm not being critical of what I have not read yet in your pastebin, I'm mearly stating things i've been wondering for a while 08:01:31 * sproingie kind of likes rf's wordset for conditionals, but a plain old IF is nice to have too 08:02:58 I'm seeing almost no real hw port i/o anymore - is this typical? 08:03:27 Wasn't thinking you were, Ray, was just curious to know what it was that had set you thinking that. 08:03:38 Ok, I'm going to stop pretending I'm finished poking at this code. Here's the latest. http://pastebin.com/385020 08:04:16 I was asking around today, and the macosx-volken kept thinking I was talking about files/handles or sockets. So, I have to presume it's more a kernel/driver issue than ever before. 08:05:58 Suddenly, i have to work furiously again. please pardon my absence. 08:06:21 PoppaVic: port i/o is still around, sure. typically one doesn't continuously read and write to the port though, they set up a DMA channel and turn it into a memory-mapped thing 08:06:36 ahh?? 08:06:38 refreshing the buffer through a timer interrupt or somesuch 08:07:22 well, I was seeking a C api for it... Since linux had one (hard to apropos), and macosx seems cluless and lacks even the essential header. 08:07:49 The comment I got was that "the kernel owns all those ports" - and there they dumped it. 08:07:55 CPU time is too valuable to make it bang on ports all the time when we have offloaded chipsets with DMA channels for that purpose 08:08:20 yes, typically it's the OS that deals with it. if you're writing an OS, then of course you have to know how it's done 08:08:35 sproingie: is there a C api for this I've somehow missed? A header or manpage or sumpin'? 08:09:07 i don't know what magic action at a distance it does to set it up, all i know is that most port i/o is either done by DMA or a polling loop that generates interrupts when new data is available (e.g. for keyboards) 08:09:40 I can accept a kernel or bios or whatever managing it. I just couldn't find a ref, so.. I'm sorta' prepared to pretend they are missing at this point. 08:10:11 PoppaVic: doubt there's manpages on kernel internals, which is kind of a shame. i recommend reading OS source code. netbsd is a good choice, it's very clean and lavishly commented 08:10:15 whereas linux is neither 08:10:38 using the BIOS is something bootloaders do. for a modern OS, it's way too slow 08:10:40 ok, this was akin to what they'd suggested. Thanks. 08:10:57 Yeah, I can remember suffering the bios long, long ago 08:12:45 thing is, every time you use a GET or a PUT, it involves the CPU in transferring a really piddling amount of data 08:12:56 ergo, way too slow. DMA came around to get around that 08:14:24 right 08:15:31 still, dealing with hardware, it's all ring0 stuff. so if you're running over an OS, you gotta do it all in kernel space 08:15:39 I can't recall any DMA programming.. So, I'll leave it for now. It seems as though you are suggesting some kernel-interface to set up and poll/select (ports)devices and treat them like normal-ro-C devices though, right? 08:15:58 ro/rw 08:16:15 linux has /dev/port for that purpose 08:16:24 i know nothing about it other than that it exists 08:16:42 presumably one uses ioctl's to read and write individual ports 08:16:53 Yeah, I always hate to say "ring0" - because that seems to REALLY confuse some folks. And, sadly, macosx lacks /dev/port 08:17:02 right - so I thought as well 08:17:54 osx may not give you userspace access at all. presumably one could write a mach thread or whatever they call it and send it messages 08:18:15 but i doubt darwin exposes its guts like that 08:18:15 Yeah, non-trivial schlok 08:18:58 S'ok, I wanted to be thorough, but they are deliberately making it obtuse. 08:19:13 not really, there just hasn't been demand for it 08:19:33 apple has loads of developer docs, you just need to read the DDK docs 08:19:40 (device driver kit) 08:19:57 well, I can envision little reason for being sensible when yer Powerbook" is a tight, closed, packed mess w/o a place to add a card/port - sure 08:20:25 apple has a quite open device driver model as far as i've heard 08:20:40 anyway, i gotta get going 08:20:45 I was thinking of the hw-side; stay well! 08:20:48 * sproingie wavies 08:40:44 --- join: thinfu (i=thin@bespin.org) joined #forth 08:40:44 --- mode: ChanServ set +o thinfu 08:41:06 Hi 08:41:11 --- topic: set to 'FORTH - Fast Orthogonal Reflective Threaded Higher-Order Language' by thinfu 08:41:15 Heh. 08:41:17 --- quit: PoppaVic ("will be right back") 08:41:17 hi Robert :) 08:41:20 Yay for bacronyms. 08:41:27 Or backronyms. 08:41:32 Fu-Thin, hello. 08:41:40 took me a few minutes to figure out the H for the acro ;) 08:41:55 Higher-Order - The term for a context in which any kind of abstractions are recursively possible over a system 08:41:59 it works though :) 08:42:27 not sure about the O however 08:42:56 good enough :P 08:43:31 --- topic: set to 'FORTH - the Fast Orthogonal Reflective Threaded Higher-Order programming language' by thinfu 08:44:04 so whats new with you Robert 08:44:31 Not all too much. Still coding, and sometimes in Forth. 08:45:06 thinfu, I think that spells FORTHOL :) 08:46:16 Quartus: well thats why i changed the Language to lower case .. but you're right.. its FORTHO .. heh 08:46:28 there's no good H words unfortunately.. 08:46:35 and Higher-Order is applicable 08:46:38 Sounds like the name of a really unsuccessful children's-party clown. 08:47:18 Well, 'threaded' is vague, and it also suggests to newcomers that Forth is actually an acronym, which it isn't. 08:47:26 heh 08:47:42 In fact it's not FORTH anymore, it's Forth. 08:47:49 yeah i know heh 08:48:15 maybe with a spiffy new acro there'll be more newcomers ;P 08:48:39 --- join: Topaz (n=top@wlan-160.ecs.soton.ac.uk) joined #forth 08:50:02 see! ;) 08:50:06 heh 08:50:14 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pete@0-1pool47-52.nas30.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 08:50:42 * thinfu pokes Topaz 08:50:44 OK. So much for that 08:51:42 THAT, Threaded Higher-Order Abstraction Tool 08:52:03 you've been acro'd! 08:52:07 it's like punk'd but better 08:52:09 nice, but I really wanted my powder-order in 08:52:16 mjello 08:52:52 Hi there. 08:52:57 Topaz: i vaguely recall talking to you about 2-3 years ago, whats new? :P 08:52:57 And....bbl, food. 08:53:06 hmm, dunno :D 08:53:12 i was probably writing my AVR forth at the time 08:53:18 which is currently awaiting something to use it for ;) 08:53:37 heh :) 08:54:17 build a laptop or a mech with the avr chip ;P 08:54:24 just spent the afternoon getting free internet off uni a mile away with a cantenna and a big dish 08:54:25 haha 08:54:35 nice 08:55:30 using the 2.4 ghz freq ? 08:56:02 like is it some wireless campus and you merely boosted the range for yourself? 08:57:10 bbl 08:57:44 yea 08:57:45 h 08:57:54 though the access points are all indoors 08:58:02 so we're getting it through a window 09:11:45 --- join: JasonWoof (n=jason@pdpc/supporter/student/Herkamire) joined #forth 09:11:45 --- mode: ChanServ set +o JasonWoof 09:15:20 howdy JasonWoof 09:15:24 how do you like the new topic? ;) 09:15:48 altho quartus pointed out its more like FORTHO than FORTH heh 09:15:54 I think you have too much time and years available 09:16:51 PoppaVic: i think your IQ is too low to take yourself so seriously 09:17:02 That's nice 09:18:51 you're a pretty negative guy aren't you? 09:18:58 heh 09:19:35 put Symbolic or something at the end 09:19:39 then it can be FORTHOS 09:19:55 heh 09:20:08 well there's no other good H word 09:20:17 so i'm gonna pretend its FORTH and not FORTHO 09:20:24 and sooner or later everyone will be sucked into my reality 09:20:43 unless anyone here can think of an H word 09:20:46 that makes sense 09:20:53 It's still nigh unto useless 09:21:46 I'm not real clear on the terminology... but I don't think forth is generally orthogonal or reflective 09:22:09 or if it is orthogonal... what is it orthogonal to? 09:25:19 yeah the O is also a poor word 09:25:21 --- join: neceve (n=Clau@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 09:25:26 but forth is certainly reflective 09:26:09 I've been thinking about building a smalltalk environment on top of a Forth kernel. 09:26:43 anybody tried forthos? forthos.org 09:26:49 PoppaVic: do you ever play games? watch tv or movies? this acro-building exercise is similar, its just for fun 09:27:11 sounds pretty cool 09:27:34 yeah it seems pretty far along 09:27:54 someone coded TCP/IP stuff for it too 09:29:00 --- topic: set to 'FORTH - the Fast Orthogonally-Persistent Reflective Threaded Higher-Order programming language' by thinfu 09:29:09 mwahaha 09:29:35 Heh. 09:29:40 Buzzword overflow. 09:29:43 * Robert shuts down. 09:30:29 >:) 09:36:46 --- quit: neceve (Remote closed the connection) 09:40:10 --- topic: set to 'FORTH - the Functional Orthogonally-Persistent Reflective Threaded Higher-Order programming language' by thinfu 09:40:32 Functional? Fast? Ts... :) 09:44:39 cool. forthos seems to run fine under qemu 09:44:40 so far anyway 09:44:42 it boots 09:47:10 --- quit: Ray_work (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 09:49:48 --- join: Ray_work (n=vircuser@adsl-65-68-201-18.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 10:01:11 forthos.. hmm how is it? 10:01:29 --- quit: PoppaVic ("Pulls the pin...") 10:09:43 --- part: thinfu left #forth 10:33:16 --- join: snoopy_17 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-148-216.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 10:38:27 --- quit: Topaz ("Leaving") 10:41:29 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 10:41:35 --- nick: snoopy_17 -> Snoopy42 10:42:11 haven't gotten that far with forthos yet 10:42:18 eg I don't know how to start the editor 10:42:30 doesn't seem to be much documentation on the site 10:45:48 back 10:47:26 thinfu, the topic has gone from marginally-nonsensical to completely-nonsensical. 10:47:33 I don't think it's good. 10:47:43 Ah, he left. 10:48:05 --- topic: set to 'Welcome to #forth, we discuss forth, simplicity, and a variety of technical subjects. The rules are simple: don't spam, don't troll, and speak english.' by Quartus 10:48:25 --- topic: set to 'Welcome to #forth, we discuss forth, simplicity, and a variety of technical subjects. The rules are simple: don't spam, don't troll, and speak English.' by Robert 10:48:28 * Robert coughs. 10:48:41 --- topic: set to 'Welcome to #forth, we discuss Forth, simplicity, and a variety of technical subjects. The rules are simple: don't spam, don't troll, and speak English.' by Quartus 10:48:52 --- topic: set to 'Welcome to #forth, we discuss the Forth programming language, simplicity, and a variety of technical subjects. The rules are simple: don't spam, don't troll, and speak English.' by Quartus 10:49:15 --- topic: set to 'Welcome to #forth. We discuss the Forth programming language, simplicity, and a variety of technical subjects. The rules are simple: don't spam, don't troll, and speak English.' by Quartus 10:49:18 Ok. Done for now. :) 10:54:20 Mmm...perfection. 11:13:51 only factoring 14:20:05 --- join: neceve (n=Clau@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 15:53:27 --- nick: nanstm -> Raystm2 15:54:06 Ray's home :) 16:03:12 --- quit: neceve ("Leaving") 16:11:07 --- quit: Ray_work (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 16:21:18 --- part: thelsdj left #forth 16:21:42 --- join: asymptote (n=weldon@220.muma.nsvl.chcgil24.dsl.att.net) joined #forth 16:31:15 Hey all. 16:48:39 --- quit: asymptote ("Leaving") 16:53:29 --- quit: Pepe_Le_Pew (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 16:57:43 --- quit: virl (Remote closed the connection) 17:43:11 gday 17:43:19 Hey sproingie. 17:56:56 just learned today that opera is totally free. the things i miss from giving up slashdot 17:57:03 still a net positive in my life tho 17:57:45 I've been using it exclusively for the past few weeks. 17:57:53 amazing packaging too. i expected them to have "a linux version", maybe an RPM and a self-installing archive .bin version 17:58:04 they have every freaking version of every major distro 17:58:13 It's pretty solid, I have to say. 17:58:40 i actually like firefox on windows, but i loathe it on linux. slow as molasses 18:04:28 --- join: sproingie_ (i=foobar@64-121-2-59.c3-0.sfrn-ubr8.sfrn.ca.cable.rcn.com) joined #forth 18:08:39 looks like opera's irc support needs some work 18:09:37 in fact it's completely broken 18:12:54 --- quit: sproingie_ (Remote closed the connection) 19:12:56 I haven't tried the IRC component. 19:13:21 I prefer separate tools for separate purposes. 19:32:42 --- quit: madgarden (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 19:55:55 It would take some serious convincing to get me to even try using a web browser for irc 19:56:23 web browsers are definitely right up there among the most annoying GUIs I use 20:13:00 --- join: swalters (n=swalters@6532183hfc82.tampabay.res.rr.com) joined #forth 20:33:05 --- quit: swalters (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 20:35:14 i use chatzilla for irc now 20:35:43 it's not really using a web browser for irc tho. it's a pretty decent irc client written in javascript and using browser widgets 20:36:11 far more stable than konversation too 21:06:05 --- join: OrngeTide (i=orange@rm-f.net) joined #forth 21:08:46 sounds aweful 21:10:47 Hi onetom 21:10:48 oops 21:10:50 Hi OrngeTide 21:59:49 --- quit: sproingie (Remote closed the connection) 23:05:28 --- quit: JasonWoof ("off to bed") 23:34:56 hi Quartus 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/05.10.06