00:00:00 --- log: started forth/05.09.30
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06:02:31 <Robert> Hi.
06:02:49 <Ray_work> Hi Robert :)
06:04:32 <PoppaVic> Mornin'
06:08:10 * Robert is setting up a new system, and coding a Forth.
06:10:11 <PoppaVic> On/for what?
06:10:47 --- nick: Raystm2 -> nansem
06:11:13 <Robert> To replace my old server, whose hard disk is messed up.
06:11:19 <PoppaVic> ahh
06:11:37 <PoppaVic> Hopefully, the hdd didn't take a decade of code with it!
06:11:44 <Robert> And the Forth is an old project, to teach people how to build a small Forth with a practical example.
06:11:51 <Robert> Hehe, nope!
06:11:56 <Ray_work> mornin' PoppaVic :)
06:12:07 <Ray_work> Robert: i want one :)_
06:12:09 <PoppaVic> hiya, ray - how goes it?
06:12:18 <Ray_work> still goes, I'm shocked :)
06:13:13 <PoppaVic> I've been glaring at my code for awhile, and except for passing a struct* in, and expecting one back, FFI seems to be trivial.
06:14:28 <Ray_work> That's good news
06:14:41 <Ray_work> trivial, I can understand.
06:15:12 <PoppaVic> Yeah. I dunno' how that works with other languages, or assemblers... But it seems likely it can't get any more simple and maintain modularity.
06:15:14 <Ray_work> You wanna _real_ test? If Ray_work can understand it, you may have something :)
06:15:46 <PoppaVic> Long, long ago - my rules was: "If I can explain it to Mom, it must make sense" ;-)
06:22:26 <Ray_work> hehe ( sorry /me will have to work during the convo ) 
06:22:54 <PoppaVic> np
06:23:19 <PoppaVic> Trying to see where to begin beating on which code, in which file, and for which reason ;-)
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07:02:05 <Robert> Hi.
07:02:16 <virl> hi
07:02:17 <PoppaVic> lo
07:05:38 <virl> ok, to continue yesterday, a question at the channel, how much would say that ANS is the solution to the portablity problem?
07:07:19 <Robert> I'm not sure, I haven't ported much Forth. Just a few small programs, which went pretty fine.
07:07:31 <Robert> (from 32-bit isforth to my own 16-bit forth, btw)
07:10:55 <virl> or another one, are we living as fothers in a dreamland when we would say that forth is one of the most used languages around? I think we would.
07:19:39 <Robert> This is the Forth dreamland, virl. :)
07:20:13 <PoppaVic> We need DARPA funding ;-)
07:22:09 <virl> so completly unrealistic?
07:22:27 <Robert> Reality is buggy, we need to replace it.
07:23:01 <Robert> My humble point of view is this: use Forth whenever you feel like doing it.
07:23:10 <Robert> Often I find other options which are more attractive.
07:23:34 <Robert> But in some cases I'm happy that I did learn Forth.
07:24:15 <Robert> People like Chuck Moore, who are really good at Forth coding, tend to use it more. A lot of people tend to use it less... So let them.
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07:26:58 <PoppaVic> "Good" is also subjective & relative - some "Good Forth" makes me ill to read.
07:27:17 <Robert> I meant in the sense that things get done.
07:27:23 <PoppaVic> yep
07:27:32 <PoppaVic> getting shit done is valuable
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07:28:50 <PoppaVic> lo sproingie 
07:29:17 <sproingie> mornin
07:29:40 <virl> one thing that is terrible to read are somehow most ANS forth sources, I don't know really why. but I think they are disgusting.
07:48:15 <PoppaVic> stacks are amusing.
07:48:54 <PoppaVic> I'd be interested in hearing if anything has stacks that grow "up"
07:49:55 <PoppaVic> Seems like everyone and his cousin assumes they grow 'down'
07:52:46 <virl> is there any reason why stacks should grow up?
07:52:51 <sproingie> linux hppa has stacks that grow up
07:53:04 <PoppaVic> interesting
07:53:06 <sproingie> parisc can be set to have stacks grow up or down by default
07:53:33 <PoppaVic> Because, stacks - to me - are basically just arrays of a cell-size.
07:53:38 <tathi> I'll often allocate a block that holds both data and return stacks - one based at each end.
07:53:45 <sproingie> intel will of course always grow 'em down by default.  you could code around this and make it grow up, but it wouldn't be as fast
07:53:58 <PoppaVic> I wonder if it would be advantageous to integrate a direction-tag or something.
07:54:10 <PoppaVic> tathi: right, had thought of that, too
07:54:29 <PoppaVic> sproingie: right: you presume segreg and asm.
07:54:30 <sproingie> i'd just make it a compile time option, i think it's safe to assume stacks normally grow down unless otherwise specified
07:54:36 <tathi> But if you only have one stack, it is rather convenient to put it at the end of the address space and have it grow down.
07:54:37 * virl would be more interested into cyclic stacks
07:55:16 <PoppaVic> So.. It sounds like there need-be a 'tag' for the stack: direction and element-size.
07:55:20 <sproingie> tathi: not really, since you can't grow the stack beyond that limit anymore
07:55:54 <PoppaVic> btw: hi tathi ;-)
07:56:01 <sproingie> on modern hardware it hardly matters since if you run off the end of your stack space, you'll trigger a pagefault anyway 
07:56:02 <tathi> sproingie: sorry, what?
07:56:34 <tathi> oh, right.  I'm thinking on older/smaller systems.
07:57:23 <PoppaVic> ANd, I am thinking about hardware: to be or not to be - it shouldn't be assumed.
07:58:11 <tathi> like... IIRC Mac OS on 68K machines gave your app a "heap" of memory that you could allocate from, with the stack starting from the top of that block.
07:58:24 <sproingie> i wonder which direction the stack on the ignite grows
07:58:50 <sproingie> as if we'll ever see ignites fabbed for consumer use
07:59:25 <PoppaVic> I'm beginning to think I need to adapt some old code from my CommonForth - the "abstack.[ch]" stuff
08:00:01 <sproingie> tho patriot is pushing the ignite on their home page, that's not too bad
08:00:10 <PoppaVic> Or - maybe just include some push/pop/etc opcode-tables.
08:01:22 <sproingie> interesting
08:01:34 <tathi> huh.  Looks like they're following chuck's lead with the multiple-cores thing.
08:01:44 <sproingie> AMD now owns the shBoom line, which includes the ignite
08:02:24 <sproingie> well not so much owns, but exclusively licensed
08:02:29 <tathi> oh, actually it's a SIMD chip.
08:02:39 <tathi> really?  how does Patriot get away with selling them then?
08:03:53 <sproingie> actually, may not be exclusive.  i suspect it just means they licensed the patents, not bought them
08:04:18 <virl> patriot?
08:04:20 <sproingie> http://www.ptsc.com/products/index.html
08:04:32 <sproingie> could read the pdf, but i doubt that will be all that illuminating
08:05:51 <tathi> it's not.
08:06:02 <tathi> I do have a copy of the processor manual around somewhere though.
08:06:04 <virl> hmm, where could get a normal person one of that
08:06:46 <sproingie> if you look at the datasheet, patriot isn't even shipping it in silicon
08:06:54 <sproingie> presumably that's what the AMD agreement is for
08:07:26 <sproingie> all they're shipping is verilog and a FPGA simulator
08:07:57 <tathi> huh.  They told us they were...
08:08:10 <PoppaVic> heheheha.. I'd never would have thunk it, but this idea about stacks is definitely an "issue"
08:08:23 <sproingie> patriot itself probably has no fab capacity beyond prototypes
08:08:53 <sproingie> and they probably rent even that capacity
08:09:55 <sproingie> PoppaVic: it's not an issue.  they grow up or down, probably down.  you emit instructions accordingly
08:10:00 <virl> pff.. vapoware
08:10:05 <PoppaVic> umm, right
08:10:23 <PoppaVic> Like I've said before: it's an ABI issue.
08:10:38 <sproingie> virl: i wouldn't quite call it vaporware, you just gotta get someone else to build them.  presumably they are getting fabbed for big customers
08:10:55 <tathi> sproingie: IIRC they told Jason that they sold chips at US$17/each, but hadn't made up a dev board for the current chip, so they hadn't put it on their new website yet.
08:11:03 <sproingie> general dynamics is using 'em too.  defense is of course a big consumer of custom silicon
08:11:38 <sproingie> 17 bucks each ... in lots of how many thousand exactly?
08:11:53 <tathi> no, small quantities.
08:13:03 <tathi> I was pretty surprised
08:13:22 <sproingie> maybe i'm just looking at the datasheet for people interested in the design only
08:13:54 <sproingie> since all it mentions is software and fpga stuff, with just a few physical specs
08:14:13 <tathi> yeah.
08:14:56 <sproingie> they recently reshuffled their executive staff
08:14:56 <tathi> if you're interested in details, you could check with Jason, or contact them yourself - I gather they were pretty responsive through e-mail.
08:15:18 <sproingie> >>> Patriot Scientific Reports First Quarterly Profit In Its 18-Year History
08:15:30 <sproingie> how do you stay in business for 18 years without making a profit?
08:16:01 <PoppaVic> poorly? barely?
08:16:02 <tathi> crazy investors?
08:16:34 <PoppaVic> or dedicated investors
08:16:47 <sproingie> i guess it takes a while for hardware companies to turn a profit
08:18:00 <PoppaVic> create a need ;->
08:19:42 <sproingie> i suspect if i wanted to buy an actual chip, i'd have to talk to amd now
08:20:12 <sproingie> i dont think amd has the optical apparatus to even see me unless i'm carrying a wheelbarrow full of cash
08:21:04 <PoppaVic> afaik, a lot of smaller companies with designs simply contract a batchrun with the Big Boys - and sit on the investment until they sell.
08:21:42 <PoppaVic> and, in many ways, I will always prefer AMD over Intel
08:22:05 <PoppaVic> I feel bad for Motorola and worse for Zilog, though
08:22:59 <PoppaVic> Zilog always had decent chips. And, good catalogs/specs
08:23:21 <sproingie> intel took some big gambles that didn't pay off.  they're in far better shape than AMD though
08:23:26 <sproingie> not that AMD is doing badly
08:24:23 <sproingie> i'm sorta surprised atmel hasn't bought zilog
08:24:31 <PoppaVic> Intel not only tied itself to M$, they had some really shitty policies and attitudes. Amd always seemed more friendly. <shrug> I doubt it mattes much anymore - it's all mostly outsourced.
08:24:52 <PoppaVic> mattes/matters
08:24:55 <sproingie> intel in no way tied itself to microsoft
08:25:12 <sproingie> and ALL big companies have shitty policies and attitudes
08:25:37 <PoppaVic> I'd dealt with Intel at one point - I'll pass on it.
08:26:32 <sproingie> intel has a culture a lot lke IBM did in the 80's and 90's
08:26:39 <PoppaVic> yep
08:26:45 <sproingie> insular and ossified.  happens to a lot of companies
08:26:56 <sproingie> they'll adapt or AMD will eclipse them.  i suspect they'll adapt
08:26:59 <PoppaVic> then they sell out to fornats <shrug>
08:27:39 <sproingie> intel has properties that AMD can only dream of, like the xscale
08:27:50 <PoppaVic> bad enough I have to buy foreign mobo.
08:28:04 <PoppaVic> I dunno 'xscale' - but I try to avoid all asm
08:28:19 <sproingie> xscale, formerly known as the StrongARM
08:29:23 <sproingie> AMD's mobile processor roadmap is pretty weak.  it's probably the biggest reason apple chose intel
08:29:40 <sproingie> that and intel probably made a sweeter deal
08:32:03 <sproingie> charmingly xenophobic though.  the USA has been a design shop since ... the dawn of the information age, really
08:32:22 <sproingie> we design, the rest of the world builds
08:33:17 <sproingie> of course with the education system going down the tubes, i don't see the design leadership continuing for another 30 years
08:33:44 <PoppaVic> nope. Not at this rate. <shrug> I'm patient.
08:34:20 <sproingie> but frankly, i think not being on top might be good for the US
08:34:24 <PoppaVic> The cycle may well restart in my lifetime
08:34:42 <PoppaVic> No idea what that meant
08:34:57 <sproingie> western europe was a pretty nice place to live in the 80's and 90's, even when they were playing second fiddle to the USA in all areas of industry
08:35:22 <PoppaVic> Yeah, fine. ANd the Eurostate is floundering as well
08:35:30 <sproingie> maybe we'll decide that we should't have to spend all our lives working like bees to keep us on top
08:36:18 <PoppaVic> I'd rather we stopped working like dogs to keep an out-of-control government (pick a level) in gravy.
08:36:50 <sproingie> i'll say
08:37:32 <sproingie> i have to wonder whether the current government is going to suffer a backlash like the democrats got in the 80's, since they're doing essentially the same thing
08:37:38 <PoppaVic> There is something wrong with the way we operate in the US...
08:37:56 <sproingie> but that's when i get to my most cynical, and think that won't happen, because this government has fear and ignorance on its side
08:38:04 <PoppaVic> what? CYA? laundering bucks?
08:38:26 <PoppaVic> "on the Beach" - I've read too much <shrug>
08:38:29 <sproingie> spending half your taxes on a bloated military?  fine, bad, but the other guys will allow *GAY MARRIAGE* 
08:38:32 <sproingie> gasp, the horror
08:38:33 <sproingie> etc
08:38:50 <PoppaVic> marriage at all is a joke.
08:38:58 <sproingie> fear and ignorance over perceived threats to one's moral base appear to be more powerful than moral outrage over actua events
08:39:08 <tathi> it's scary.  around here, that's actually the issue that people care about.
08:39:13 <PoppaVic> "mora: is the first issue
08:39:18 <sproingie> but anyone could tell you that during any age.  fear of the unknown is more powerful
08:39:19 <PoppaVic> moral, two
08:39:20 <tathi> they won't even let you bring up the other stuff.
08:39:24 <sproingie> "better the devil you know"
08:40:16 <PoppaVic> I've been married about a decade, because it was supposed to help "us" financially - it's laughable in a tearjerking way.
08:40:17 <sproingie> this isn't to say that the left doesn't exploit fear and ignorance too, but they're nowhere near as good at it
08:40:21 <tathi> "Bush is a good Christian, I can't believe he would do <foo>."  End of argument.
08:40:33 <PoppaVic> yeah.
08:40:56 <PoppaVic> Neither wing makes much sense to me.
08:41:33 <sproingie> polarized politics aren't great.  though coalition politics involve even more corrupt politics at times
08:42:11 <sproingie> my brother has a great quote, he probably got it from someone else... "whenever you have three or more people in a room, you have politics.  solution: shoot everyone but yourself"
08:42:26 <PoppaVic> well, for a fact: congress is no longer what was intended. Same is true of the feds. I can't tell if it was Washington or Lincoln that truely bollixed the mess.
08:42:48 <sproingie> the south would certainly say lincoln
08:43:10 <sproingie> i think it gives too much credit to one person
08:43:46 <PoppaVic> lincoln also bollixed "nation" - iirc, he's the bitch that federalized the Nat. Guard and decided succession (sp?) was no longer a guarenteed Right.
08:44:01 <PoppaVic> I;m thinking key-figures, it's also era
08:44:05 <sproingie> 250-odd years after being founded by puritans, this country is still putting up with their insufferable bullshit
08:44:25 <PoppaVic> it wasn't "founded" by them at all - they are merely the most lauded
08:44:43 <sproingie> secession, and the secession issue was debated and more or less decided in 1789 ... little before lincoln's time
08:45:24 <PoppaVic> thanks, I knew the spelling was off. ANd, yeah - oddly, the right to withdraw was one of the reasons the "states" joined.
08:45:55 <sproingie> they joined for a variety of reasons
08:46:01 <sproingie> they all knew that it was a one-way ticket
08:46:06 <PoppaVic> <shrug> As I said... I'm patient. Maybe folks will awaken in my lifetime.
08:46:17 <sproingie> it's not like this was the first federal republic ever founded
08:46:21 <PoppaVic> nope, sorry - that is wrong.
08:47:18 <PoppaVic> The articles were originally a loose "confederacy" - it was 1776 when Hamilton and his buddies rushed thru a rump-session "solution"
08:47:30 <sproingie> personally, i sorta wish the south would rise again.  i would cut 'em adrift without a shot.
08:47:40 <PoppaVic> not a issue with me
08:48:06 <_ja> sprongie, some of the states had articles in their ratification that they could seceede and indeed quoted such when the time came
08:48:09 <sproingie> the declaration was sort of a solidarity agreement in wartime.  they debated the issue in the convention in 1789
08:48:12 <PoppaVic> We could point at eras/years/pivots all day. But, the point was lost centuries ago.
08:48:29 <PoppaVic> thanks, yeah - I felt my year was off
08:48:58 <PoppaVic> _ja: most did, iirc - they were all ignored.
08:49:01 <sproingie> the interim years had .... interesting politics
08:49:27 <sproingie> including a succession of presidents that no one's ever heard of
08:49:32 <sproingie> eep, i gotta go
08:49:35 * sproingie waves
08:49:37 <PoppaVic> laters
08:51:15 <PoppaVic> Basically, my memory of "History" is like 20 years old and filtered thru 2 decades of books and observations. To say we are "fucked up" covers it, but not the hows/where.
08:52:23 <PoppaVic> 2 decades?? hell, make that 4+
08:52:56 <PoppaVic> but, I've not sat thru a class on "history" in at least 2 decades.
09:00:37 <sproingie> most of what i know comes from reading encyclopedias.  i couldn't stand history class
09:01:15 <sproingie> history's so full of cool plots and personalities and intrigues, it's amazing how schools managed to boil all the flavor out of it
09:01:30 <PoppaVic> sure, and throw spin on it all
09:01:39 <sproingie> that's just the nature of history
09:01:47 <PoppaVic> or politics, apparently
09:01:49 <sproingie> written by the victors and the rulers
09:03:20 <PoppaVic> The idea of a subconcious "guilt" about slavery, or being "tolerant" of languages, or the other facets of this broken "melting-pot" - they elude and disinterest me.
09:05:15 <PoppaVic> I've already heard the 2-generations-old story of a grandmother that never learned english - but the kids did; and the kids went to town and did the shopping for the farm... And we never held slaves, (although, hell - go far enough back in europe and there may havebeen some of that).
09:06:16 <PoppaVic> so, yeah.. I tend to get a trifle irate at this whole "mea culpa" mess that "we" are suppossed to suffer guilt over.
09:08:15 <PoppaVic> And, as far as politics.. *sigh* All I can say is they keep electing the same idiots or their clones over and over... Lies are more common than truth, and the congresscritters have insulated themselves quite nicely from anything they rule upon - be it pay, bennies or employment.
09:10:04 <PoppaVic> Somewhere along the line, we simply "fucked up".. Maybe a cascade of such.
09:27:22 <PoppaVic> hmm, yeah.. abstrack.[ch] is more and more appealing.
09:51:54 <_ja> giving women the vote ruined everything
09:54:17 <PoppaVic> maybe. I doubt it - it lets us guys point the finger really well
09:54:49 <PoppaVic> "if you fems don't like it, you've automagically got at least 50% of the vote (hint, hint)"
09:56:08 <PoppaVic> I get a lot of chuckles just out of hearing fems talk about "candidates"
09:57:45 <PoppaVic> And, Ma' is of "that age" of Senior-Cit that makes religion attractive, and that affects HER opinions. It's interesting to watch.
09:59:40 <PoppaVic> The older I get, the more parallels I can draw to programming and opinions. *sigh* A few years ago, it was interesting.
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10:06:47 <PoppaVic> blarg
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11:44:20 <Ray_work> it's still interesting :)
11:45:10 <Robert> Yep!
11:58:30 <Quartus> As near as I can tell it strongly resembles redneck ranting, actually. :)
11:59:09 <Robert> I was refering to programming.
11:59:29 <Robert> But some programs could remind you of redneck ranting, I suppose. :)
12:23:38 <Ray_work> And it's up agin the wall, redneck mothers, mother that loved a son so well, so well, so well...
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13:35:02 <Robert> Hi.
13:41:01 <Ray_work> Hi Robert :)
13:41:13 <Robert> Hi again Ray.
13:42:05 <Ray_work> 1:20 left to go....
13:42:16 <Ray_work> and counting down.
13:43:49 <Robert> Ah
13:43:53 <Robert> Good luck ;)
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13:45:44 <Robert> Hi
13:45:46 <aardvarx> Greetings, all.
13:47:07 <aardvarx> Quartus, how is business?
13:47:44 <aardvarx> Has anyone seen amca lately?
13:48:28 <Robert> Yes, yesterday.
13:48:36 <Robert> About this time.
13:48:42 <aardvarx> :(
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14:29:05 <Quartus> Just missed him I guess.
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15:15:53 <crc> hi all
15:29:52 <Quartus> Hi crc.
15:35:24 --- nick: nanstm -> Raystm2
15:36:24 <Raystm2> hi crc ;)
15:36:27 <Raystm2> hi Quartus :)
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16:06:45 <Quartus> Hey Raystm2.
16:07:30 <Raystm2> Hi there Quartus. your day going well? I was too busy to participate today, but I have the logs here to catch up.
16:10:22 <Quartus> Going well. I don't think much happened today.
16:10:47 <Raystm2> so I see ;) much politics
16:11:00 <Quartus> Not involving me.  
16:11:39 <Raystm2> right. 
16:11:45 <Raystm2> i see that as well.
16:12:25 <Quartus> In his advanced mid-40s, PoppaVic seems to think he's got all the answers, and the young'uns just don't see it.
16:13:53 <Raystm2> hehe
16:14:16 * Raystm2 not much younger than Pappa, age wise that is :)
16:14:53 <Raystm2> as to the young'uns, in one eye...
16:15:24 <Quartus> I just have a lot of trouble taking somebody that age seriously when they want to play the grizzled, world-weary old man.
16:17:57 <tathi> I thought he actually was pretty old.
16:18:10 <tathi> mid-60s or something.
16:18:15 <Raystm2> right me too :)
16:18:37 <Raystm2> that's the _part_ he wants to play.
16:18:53 <Raystm2> Must think it gives him sage statis.
16:19:17 <Raystm2> Wizzards of the seventies musta made a big impression on him :)
16:20:25 * Raystm2 needs to stop getting more and more comfortable ( clothing and shoes coming off a piece at a time ) cuz I just know when Nan wakes up. off to the store for Ray.
16:28:15 <Raystm2> I will say that I enjoy some of the things that the pappa says, entertainment value wise, even if most don't seem to get it.
16:28:50 <Raystm2> and he seems passionate about his project.
16:29:11 <Raystm2> I'm always drawn to passionate.
16:31:00 <Raystm2> In the seventies, there were wizzards and data processers, and it's the DP's that 'c' called lusers.
16:32:46 <Raystm2> I switched my HS major ( tech school ) from Data Processing to EE because the wizzards wouldn't let you touch the mainframe.
16:33:35 <Raystm2> built my own stuff on intel 4004 chips.
16:33:57 <Raystm2> mostly clocks and adders and junk really.
16:34:26 <Raystm2> but we designed our own devices and even etched the pc boards.
17:41:30 * sproingie reads scrollback, and is reminded of a Partially Clips comic
17:43:14 <sproingie> GIRL: Grampa, how come you never give me any wise advice?
17:43:16 <sproingie> GRANDFATHER: When I was your age, my grandfather gave me some advice.  He said "Don't be afraid to show your woman the back of your hand.  Keeps 'em in line.  And don't let any coloreds give you no lip either."
17:43:18 <sproingie> GRANDFATHER: So I guess my advice is, when you get old, don't give advice.  You can't help but sound like an asshole.
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19:47:16 <Raystm2> hahahaha I love that :)
19:50:46 * Raystm2 tries to remember to take THAT advice.
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