00:00:00 --- log: started forth/05.09.19
00:48:09 --- quit: crcv (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
01:01:38 --- join: amca_ (n=plump@as-bri-4-1-163.ozonline.com.au) joined #forth
01:02:59 --- join: YoyoFreeBSD_ (n=yoyofree@222.90.4.231) joined #forth
01:04:00 --- quit: amca (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
01:55:06 --- quit: warpzero (Excess Flood)
01:55:14 --- join: warpzero (n=warpzero@wza.us) joined #forth
02:40:41 --- quit: amca_ ("d34d")
04:07:27 --- join: binaryguy (n=binarygu@host86-131-188-103.range86-131.btcentralplus.com) joined #forth
05:07:03 --- quit: MBitter (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
05:08:02 --- join: MBitter (n=malbi@p508E06F7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth
05:19:16 --- join: aardvarx (n=folajimi@shell4.sea5.speakeasy.net) joined #forth
05:19:50 <aardvarx> Morning, all.
05:22:32 --- quit: binaryguy (" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-")
05:47:03 --- join: virl (n=hmpf@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at) joined #forth
06:01:59 --- quit: aardvarx ("leaving")
06:06:23 --- nick: Raystm2 -> nanstm
06:15:27 --- join: madwork (n=foo@derby.metrics.com) joined #forth
06:15:33 --- join: Ray_work (n=vircuser@adsl-65-68-201-174.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth
06:36:22 --- join: tathi (n=josh@pdpc/supporter/bronze/tathi) joined #forth
06:36:37 --- join: aardvarx (n=folajimi@shell3.sea5.speakeasy.net) joined #forth
07:09:17 --- quit: virsys ("bah")
07:10:24 --- join: virsys (n=virsys@or-65-40-178-76.dyn.sprint-hsd.net) joined #forth
07:32:47 --- join: sproingie (i=foobar@64-121-2-59.c3-0.sfrn-ubr8.sfrn.ca.cable.rcn.com) joined #forth
07:44:48 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pete@0-1pool46-226.nas30.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth
07:45:23 <PoppaVic> Howdy
07:57:47 --- quit: PoppaVic ("Pulls the pin...")
08:12:00 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pete@0-2pool236-240.nas22.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth
08:12:32 <PoppaVic> Man.. Sometimes, "family" is more trouble than it's worth.
08:18:34 --- quit: tathi (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
08:23:57 --- join: tathi (n=josh@pdpc/supporter/bronze/tathi) joined #forth
08:32:26 <Ray_work> hi PoppaVic. I've lived that statement.
08:33:26 <PoppaVic> Yah.. Now I find that about 80% of #3 sons rant the other day is trash, according to #2 son. *sigh* Filtering data from noise is too much work, I swear.
08:44:49 <PoppaVic> Anyone have any practical experience with Quad-cells? I can't recall ever needing more than doubles
08:55:17 --- quit: sproingie (Remote closed the connection)
09:32:30 --- quit: YoyoFreeBSD_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
09:33:46 <PoppaVic> Hmm... interesting.
09:55:45 <PoppaVic> I'm beggining to see where "issues" with user-var-space and just plain "space" or dictionary "space" are serious issues.
09:56:44 <PoppaVic> Man, this is fugly.
09:59:29 <JasonWoof> trying to do multitasking?
10:00:04 <PoppaVic> JasonWoof: not necessarily. I was looking at a core wordset for workspaces.
10:00:34 <PoppaVic> I'm seeing that 'user' is better defined than 'program' or 'voc' spaces.
10:02:05 <PoppaVic> JasonWoof: considering a "segmented" forth (regardless if the segments are honest or not)
10:03:22 <PoppaVic> JasonWoof: It still all stems from my view of a vm/engine above C and below forth. It's making life "amusing".
10:04:05 <JasonWoof> I have a hard time even thinking about this stuff when there isn't something specific that your trying to get the code to do
10:05:12 <PoppaVic> Yah, I know. It's almost too generic.
10:06:24 <JasonWoof> it's hard even with the most broad questions to say which is better, without the context of what it would be better _for_
10:06:43 <PoppaVic> JasonWoof: I should point out that the vm-opcodes and extensions is improving, but I keep thinking of "groups" and now I'm trying to reconcile workspaces, images and "limitations"
10:07:11 <PoppaVic> absolutely, given a specific target, any idiot can write better C or ASM
10:07:35 <PoppaVic> "better" meaning: "for this place and time and space"
10:08:09 <JasonWoof> eg I have a very specific project. I'm making an emersive, humane, helpful human interface for programming and ultimately everything I use a computer for.
10:08:25 <JasonWoof> I can make lots of choices easily, given this goal and my current design
10:08:31 <PoppaVic> I as well, we seem to vary mostly on the end of the paths
10:08:40 <JasonWoof> some things aren't so easy, and I have to try something and see how it goes
10:08:48 <PoppaVic> Agred
10:09:33 <JasonWoof> I feel I don't understand what you're trying to build or how you plan to build it well enough to make even the vaguest guesses as to what would be useful to do
10:11:21 <PoppaVic> I understand. NP. I'm tinkering "In Search Of..", and I have no qualms thinking in terms of synthetic "machines" or "cpu" or "asm" or codifying enough for further programs to xlate/cvrt into FOO (or native) as required.
10:12:24 <PoppaVic> I think what hurt us all was translators that went from closer&closer to-metal right into specific-asm.
10:13:00 <JasonWoof> huh? what hurt us?
10:13:07 <PoppaVic> JasonWoof: mindset
10:14:15 <PoppaVic> Instead of thinking further and further away from hard-metal, and seeking interfaces/commonalities - folks made great "leaps of faith". And that was when shit started to breakdown and portability suffered.
10:14:52 <JasonWoof> ok, I think I'm starting to understand. can you give me a couple examples of these "leaps of faith"?
10:14:59 <PoppaVic> Forthish is a place where the "away from hard-metal" should really glow.
10:15:22 <JasonWoof> what's forthish?
10:15:42 <PoppaVic> not really, I'm not much of a perl/python/vbasic guy. I just deal with C/forthish.
10:16:10 <PoppaVic> JasonWoof: merely a convenience-term for forth-like-variants. Even ANS is no worldstopper.
10:19:11 <JasonWoof> oh. you used "forthish" as a noun, so I thought maybe you meant something different by it. eg a particular implementation
10:19:28 <JasonWoof> forthish an adjective
10:19:31 <JasonWoof> like greenish
10:19:34 <PoppaVic> I very regularly get arguments from nitpickers, but C is still "pretty close" to "portable assembler" - and we KNOW it's only roughly true.
10:19:42 <PoppaVic> right
10:19:47 <JasonWoof> means forth-like
10:19:50 <PoppaVic> yes
10:20:32 <PoppaVic> I keep thinking that there should be a way to cascade/build-up a forth from lower and lower elements, like yer opcodes.
10:20:50 <JasonWoof> is there another way?
10:21:10 <PoppaVic> This is not for a SPEED issue - I always figure a smartass can write a special filter/xlator/compiler.
10:21:47 <PoppaVic> JasonWoof: ahh, but combining assorted ideas and workspaces into clear basics and layering - THAT is where my head is at.
10:22:46 <PoppaVic> My particular "limit" is: I don't dip below C/gcc/CC
10:23:06 <JasonWoof> could you define "workspaces" for me? I have a few vague and inconsistent definitions in my head, none of which make sense for what you just said.
10:23:08 <PoppaVic> But, I see no reason we can't formulate a really decent system
10:24:04 <PoppaVic> JasonWoof: "workspace" - forget vocs for now.. Think of pcoded-memory and uservar (extensions to vm indirectly thru pcode-operators)
10:24:11 <JasonWoof> when you sai you won't dip below c/etc you mean go lower level? like no asm?
10:24:28 <PoppaVic> thus: workspace is where you would ADD vars or data or new words
10:24:39 <JasonWoof> ok
10:25:27 <PoppaVic> JasonWoof: I'm betting that porting to faster systems would just necessitate specific platform/cpu asm. Let them write a proper file and add it to the make or link it to the object.
10:26:34 <PoppaVic> JasonWoof: bear in mind - definitions/heads/vocs would be a DIFFERENT "space" (at least conceptually). We need to get early and hard to obviate the whole "jumble it all together" problems.
10:27:37 <PoppaVic> I'm working hard on the basics, and I've about concluded there are definitely "extensions" over the lower-records/data/formats/words.
10:27:40 * JasonWoof gets early and hard
10:28:11 <JasonWoof> ok
10:28:15 <JasonWoof> I think I'm starting to understand
10:28:17 <PoppaVic> Identifying the strata and members is becoming my major PITA
10:28:42 <JasonWoof> your working on designing how the system will work. how different parts will be seperated, and how they will connect/talk to eachother
10:28:50 <PoppaVic> right
10:29:16 <JasonWoof> I see
10:29:18 <PoppaVic> and, while I can 'think' C and forthish, I can't think of CPU-regs, asm and such.
10:29:31 <JasonWoof> This is a problem (set of problems?) that I've thought quite a bit about, but hardly experienced
10:29:37 <JasonWoof> and I've not really done anything about it
10:29:41 <PoppaVic> So, we want a clear API to help specify a clear ABI
10:30:24 <PoppaVic> JasonWoof: I know and understand. Neither ##C folks or #asm folks will ever directly grasp what we are discussing.
10:30:37 <JasonWoof> not sure I will either :)
10:30:43 <PoppaVic> ..and just forget #perl and #python groups.
10:31:01 <PoppaVic> this is my latest opcodes CORE:
10:31:07 <JasonWoof> what kind of experience have you had with systems that needed more seperation between modules/workspaces/whatever
10:31:27 <PoppaVic> http://rafb.net/paste/results/7A26NC74.html
10:32:06 <PoppaVic> JasonWoof: I always try to allow for folks that might work with mixed mem-bases/types and images, etc.
10:32:32 <PoppaVic> ..and I'dreally prefer to not work within the gcc attribute/metacompiler crap
10:34:03 <PoppaVic> I need, (at this point) to cobble a basic "Makefile" that will generate a tarball of "where the hell are we?" for the wiki
10:35:03 <PoppaVic> I warn you: I changed your opcodes drastically as I tried to develop a "mindset"
10:36:02 <PoppaVic> And, I am sure I've redundant and just plain useless opcodes-per-size
10:36:56 <PoppaVic> Failed to open /DEV/Metabuilder/fovm/odoubles.h for reading: No such file or directory
10:37:07 <PoppaVic> http://rafb.net/paste/results/Xc8TiT74.html
10:37:10 <PoppaVic> damned scripts
10:37:36 <PoppaVic> http://rafb.net/paste/results/llTMt844.html
10:37:36 <JasonWoof> please name your vm something that would be pronounced different than fovium
10:37:51 <PoppaVic> I will, when I can envision it.
10:37:55 <JasonWoof> the whole lynx/links thing is so annoying in person
10:38:05 <PoppaVic> ahh, never use it
10:38:26 <PoppaVic> w3m was the best console browser I tried
10:38:33 <JasonWoof> that's what I use now
10:38:47 <JasonWoof> lynx has one very nice feature that w3m lacks however: numbered links
10:39:05 * PoppaVic lives in GUI with multiple termwin and xchat and such running
10:39:09 <JasonWoof> that one feature is almost enough to make me switch back
10:39:49 <JasonWoof> I do just about everything I can in terminals
10:40:01 <JasonWoof> I always have a bunch of fullscreen terminals around
10:40:23 <PoppaVic> yeah, but under screen & friends, they are just not friendly
10:40:40 <PoppaVic> anyway, that's where the opcodes-idea is at.
10:41:33 <PoppaVic> http://rafb.net/paste/results/pULV8350.html
10:41:42 <PoppaVic> the above is due to get merged, less func-proto.
10:42:08 <PoppaVic> I'm not super-happy at this point, but I think the idea is getting clearer
10:43:20 <JasonWoof> my only beef with screen is that scrollback doesn't work
10:43:51 <PoppaVic> It's been pretty frustrating. I *KNOW* we can do far better than we all suffer, but geezus... it's such a painful exercise.
10:43:59 <JasonWoof> screen is indespensible for working accross an unreliable connection
10:44:02 <PoppaVic> I never liked "screen"
10:44:05 <PoppaVic> ever.
10:44:29 <PoppaVic> I'd telnet or ssh into "wherever"
10:44:47 <JasonWoof> well, if you get disconnected for 5 minutes of inactivity
10:44:51 <JasonWoof> you'll start to appreciate it
10:45:00 <JasonWoof> I've done work from behind some really annoying routers
10:45:03 <PoppaVic> Not really, my ISP has done that forever
10:45:18 <JasonWoof> well, assuming your doing something like sysadmin
10:45:47 <JasonWoof> anyway, who cares
10:45:49 <PoppaVic> maybe; I'm a lousy 'admin' - I just care about me. and then talk protocols as required
10:46:03 <JasonWoof> I don't use screen much at home
10:46:27 <JasonWoof> I prefer running a bunch of terminal programs and switching with ion
10:46:47 <PoppaVic> I'm gonna' call it a day and take a "brisk nap". I hope I managed to show you some insights... I've too damned many ideas and need to polish their presentations better.
10:47:08 <PoppaVic> You stay well, we'll talk again tomorrow! ;-)
10:47:25 --- quit: PoppaVic ("Pulls the pin...")
10:47:26 <JasonWoof> ok
10:47:50 <JasonWoof> not sure what to tell him
10:48:10 <JasonWoof> 1) write a book
10:48:18 <JasonWoof> 2) write a design document (specific one)
10:48:51 <JasonWoof> 3) start implementing now... figure out what you can make in a month that will do something. and how to grow incrementally from that
10:56:28 <aardvarx> JasonWoof, I have no idea what you are talking about.
11:00:43 <Quartus> JasonWoof, you could tell him any one or all three.
11:02:05 <JasonWoof> :)
11:02:08 <aardvarx> I vote for the second option. It is probably the most challenging one, though.
11:02:15 <aardvarx> Hey Quartus.
11:02:18 <Quartus> Hey.
11:10:31 <JasonWoof> I just feel like I've wasted lots of time doing what he appears to be doing
11:10:51 <JasonWoof> I find that no matter how cool all my crazy generalized thoughts were, I end up coming up with better ones when I get down to coding it anyway
11:11:26 <JasonWoof> or I code it and find out that it doesn't really work out, and I find the better solution only by coding it
11:12:09 <aardvarx> I thought one was supposed to think first, code later. What's wrong with that approach?
11:13:55 <aardvarx> Not a troll, just a thought...
11:23:57 <Quartus> In my experience that works better. :)
11:25:44 <JasonWoof> think first, but get your ideas down to details
11:26:03 <JasonWoof> plus this approach requires understanding your problem
11:26:15 <JasonWoof> which I don't think PoppaVic does.
11:26:34 <JasonWoof> I think he needs to just do something, so he can experience actual problems
11:26:46 <JasonWoof> and solve those instead of the ones he thinks he'll have
11:35:24 <Quartus> I agree.
11:38:24 --- quit: aardvarx ("Lost terminal")
11:50:13 <Quartus> I think he's doing both thinking before coding -- and coding before thinking, neither to his advantage.
11:50:33 <Quartus> Insofar as the header files represent coding, at any rate.
11:54:56 <JasonWoof> or maybe he knows what he's doing and just I don't
11:57:40 --- join: aardvarx (n=folajimi@shell2.sea5.speakeasy.net) joined #forth
11:58:56 --- quit: aardvarx (Client Quit)
12:13:53 --- join: aardvarx (n=folajimi@shell2.sea5.speakeasy.net) joined #forth
12:20:23 <Quartus> JasonWoof, always possible I suppose. :)
12:29:32 --- quit: virsys (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
12:42:27 --- join: wossname (n=wossname@CPE0010a729dce5-CM0014e8b596d8.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth
13:13:39 <Ray_work> Good Day! Quartus. Hope you are well.
13:17:44 <Quartus> I am, Ray. How are you?
13:18:37 <aardvarx> Ah, the joy of punctuation!
13:18:38 <aardvarx> :P
13:37:57 <aardvarx> Good day!
13:38:06 --- quit: aardvarx ("leaving")
13:38:56 --- join: aardvarx (n=folajimi@shell2.sea5.speakeasy.net) joined #forth
13:39:03 <Ray_work> aardvarx :)
13:39:35 <Ray_work> I am living lavida loca, with my first successfull application of Roger Levy's Glypher.
13:40:08 <aardvarx> O_o
13:40:11 <aardvarx> What is that?
13:40:20 <Ray_work> Glypher?
13:40:35 <Ray_work> Thats a glyph-forth. :P
13:41:10 <Ray_work> You are about to enter another dimention. A dimention not only of sight but of sound....
13:41:26 <aardvarx> Uh...
13:41:30 <Ray_work> A dimention not only of sight and sound but of mind.
13:41:39 <aardvarx> I will have to see you about that tomorrow!
13:41:41 <aardvarx> :P
13:41:54 --- quit: aardvarx (Client Quit)
13:41:57 <Ray_work> Consider, if you will, a man. A lonely man.
13:42:04 <Ray_work> A programmer.
13:42:29 <wossname> I AM THAT MAN
13:42:37 <Ray_work> Imagine taking retroforth7 and 8 and slamming a colorforth like on top of that. 
13:42:51 <Ray_work> hehe hi wossname -- long time....
13:43:01 <wossname> yep
13:43:17 <Ray_work> Where ya been all my life ya big stud?
13:43:50 <wossname> i've been doing 'stuff'
13:43:57 <Ray_work> I knew that. :)
13:44:12 <Ray_work> you're always doing `stuff'. 
13:44:31 <wossname> i was working over the summer
13:44:46 <Ray_work> How old is Summer? 
13:44:57 <Ray_work> Is she cute?
13:45:18 <wossname> :(
13:45:22 <Ray_work> Do I know her, in the biblical sense?
13:45:30 <Ray_work> not cute?
13:46:15 <wossname> summer is a bitch
13:46:38 <Ray_work> You got that right. 
13:46:51 <Ray_work> We got our floodies in last week. 
13:47:02 <Ray_work> our buddies from the flood.
13:47:22 <wossname> in town?
13:50:02 <Ray_work> ya some of the kids now attand my daughters school.
13:50:36 <Ray_work> Between us and Dallas and Houston, I think many people are gonna stay.
14:09:43 --- join: derv0 (n=derv0@proxy1.nscl.msu.edu) joined #forth
14:33:28 --- nick: nanstm -> tiff
14:41:11 --- nick: tiff -> nanstm
14:44:39 --- quit: derv0 ("Client exiting")
14:57:13 --- join: crc (i=crc@pool-70-110-165-116.phil.east.verizon.net) joined #forth
15:51:35 <Quartus> Hey all.
15:53:38 <crc> hi Quartus
16:21:47 --- quit: OrngeTide ("bye")
16:41:35 <warpzero> guys
16:41:44 <warpzero> my new hp calculator practically runs forth
16:41:49 <warpzero> <3
16:42:03 <crc> cool
16:45:13 <warpzero> DUP ERROR: NOT ENOUGH ARGUMENTS
16:45:20 <warpzero> it says
16:49:08 <tathi> Which one do you have?
17:20:34 --- quit: tathi ("leaving")
17:46:44 --- nick: nanstm -> Raystm2
18:00:38 --- join: tathi (n=josh@pdpc/supporter/bronze/tathi) joined #forth
18:05:08 --- join: sproingie (i=foobar@64-121-2-59.c3-0.sfrn-ubr8.sfrn.ca.cable.rcn.com) joined #forth
19:48:45 --- quit: madgarden (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
19:51:46 --- quit: tathi ("leaving")
20:01:31 --- join: snoopy_16 (i=snoopy_1@dsl-084-058-130-240.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth
20:02:11 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Nick collision from services.)
20:02:39 --- nick: snoopy_16 -> Snoopy42
20:44:06 --- join: amca (n=plump@as-bri-4-1-53.ozonline.com.au) joined #forth
20:44:27 --- quit: amca (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
22:01:39 --- quit: sproingie (Remote closed the connection)
22:44:50 --- quit: virl (Remote closed the connection)
23:09:07 --- quit: JasonWoof ("off to bed")
23:37:40 --- quit: Quartus (Remote closed the connection)
23:54:20 --- join: Quartus (n=trailer@ansuz.pair.com) joined #forth
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/05.09.19