00:00:00 --- log: started forth/05.09.14 01:31:45 --- quit: Amanita_Virosa ("Soooo very tired.") 02:02:33 --- quit: Quartus (Remote closed the connection) 04:27:41 --- join: tathi (n=josh@pdpc/supporter/bronze/tathi) joined #forth 05:21:51 --- join: amca (n=plump@as-bri-3-137.ozonline.com.au) joined #forth 05:48:31 --- join: Quartus (n=trailer@ansuz.pair.com) joined #forth 05:55:47 --- join: aardvarx (n=folajimi@shell2.sea5.speakeasy.net) joined #forth 05:56:10 Good day, all. 06:14:07 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pete@0-1pool46-170.nas30.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 06:14:44 Howdy-doody 06:15:46 --- quit: tathi ("playing taxi...") 06:30:33 Hello 06:30:58 Good morning 06:32:01 Good evening :) 06:32:02 amca: per request yesterday, I threw a post to Quartus' Wiki 06:32:19 http://quartus.net/cgi-bin/twiki/view/Main/ForthishCvm 06:32:53 thanks 06:37:27 PoppaVic: Looks good. Pretty much what I was asking, thanks :) 06:37:36 welcome 06:38:00 trying to beat the headers some today... Codifying expectations and extensibility better. 06:38:24 hehe 06:39:02 well, as I've mentioned.. a lot of ideas are jammed in my head, and then I have to reconcile brains to structs and such. 06:39:09 hehe yep 06:39:41 Does converting you r head ideas into comments and then headers and then code work? 06:39:43 I felt bad yesterday, it took me forever to realize that Quartus was unaware that I was trying for offset/relative "compiling" 06:40:08 it always has for me Sorta' a top-down and then bottom-up design-process 06:40:50 until I have some ideas to work within, I don't like writing code. If the code gets gnarly, I then review the structs for any needed changes and recycle. 06:41:16 I understand the top-down bit, but I dont think Ive gotten the 'bottom up' bit properly. How would you describe the bottom up bit? 06:41:55 bottom-up programming tends to imply slamming out code w/o an api in mind - like starting with assembly and working toward perl or something 06:42:02 :/ 06:42:14 But how does that fit in with top down design? 06:42:50 however, if you have an API (headers/structs) and such with which towork (top-down), then you can start writing code (bottom-up) that tries to stay within the universe 06:43:15 So you sort of write towards the middle? 06:43:18 yes 06:43:25 Ah 06:43:40 What is wrong with just totally writing top down? 06:43:40 ..and, if something is obviously WRONG, you can usually make a few middlin' changes and not cry too much 06:44:15 well, totally top-down generally means "This is the absolute API, just do what I asked and submit the code" 06:45:06 from the view of a group-project, it prolly IS efficient, because no one guy is stuck rewriting the universe 06:45:10 I was thinkiig more of complete top down. Start with general design, then refine, refine, refine, until the final refinement is actual code 06:45:58 stepwise-refinement: sure, that works as well. My system simply makes my programming more fun and sufferable, since I often have to learn/relearn/find-limitations "on-the-fly" 06:46:39 * amca nods 06:47:03 I tend to do stuff object oriented/abstract data structures like. 06:47:14 Or try to :) 06:47:35 sure. or, as I show in fovm.h: context-passing code 06:49:36 As in code that has its functions operated on a reference to a particular context/data structure instance all the time? 06:49:45 right 06:49:49 FOVM *fovm being the context? 06:50:06 and, if the struct can point at a vtable, yer even better off 06:50:12 rightright 06:50:37 vtable? 06:51:42 a vtable is a vector-table or struct/array of func-ptrs. For even better efficiency, struct->vtable->fptr[etc] 06:51:50 as in a table of functions to do the particular standard operations on a particular context? 06:51:56 right 06:52:01 Do you know anything about the linux kernel? 06:52:27 and, by using a ptr-to-vtable, you savespace per struct, and with funcptrs, you can change behaviors 06:52:38 I avoid the kernel like plaque 06:52:42 or plague 06:53:35 hehe. For each FS device driver, the device driver has to provide its own functions for file operations such as 'open', otherwise the default file operation is used. So would that be a vtable? 06:54:49 --- join: JasonWoof (n=jason@pdpc/supporter/student/Herkamire) joined #forth 06:54:49 --- mode: ChanServ set +o JasonWoof 06:55:05 PoppaVic: Ill find the url for it. 06:55:19 back again. 06:55:36 amca: sure, like dbopen works 06:56:25 dbopen? For opening genric databases in a particular C library? 06:56:34 ioctls now.. Never sure how they'd be best implemented. But, with a vtable of ptrs and ioctls, yer cookin' 06:56:41 amca: sure - see the manpage 06:57:21 PoppaVic: I really need to get Linux In A Nutshell and read through all the manpages 06:57:32 not me. Not even interested 06:58:20 the linux kernel/system - all of *nix - needs a moritorium on features and a generational-merge and rewrite 06:59:04 PoppaVic: With what end? 06:59:29 cleaner code, better portability, etc. Too many monkeys with keyboards 06:59:51 hehe 07:00:35 50,000 monkeys with 50,000 keyboards canrt be wrong ;) "It was the best of times, it was the *blurst* of times?!" 07:01:31 something like that... A horrendous number of monkeys with horrendous mixes and masses of code just keep making the whole thing a teetering giant. 07:03:11 But isnt that the open source mechanism? 07:04:27 I suppose. But, the idea of stop/review-rewrite-release/begin seems to be foreign. 07:05:54 I suppose that is up to the project leader. So it would be Linus's fault for the kernel fugliness 07:06:15 yep 07:06:51 At this point, I would have to question wether tis even POSSIBLE for him to do so. 07:07:48 Without dissenring forks in the code appearing? Possibly not 07:08:33 http://lxr.linux.no/source/include/linux/fs.h#L922 <-- the struct is a vtable, right? 07:08:58 s/struct/struct file_operations/ 07:09:20 ewww, shit that is ugly! Yeah, that's a vtable 07:10:22 hehe 07:10:56 Are you able to say what you find ugly about it? 07:11:21 yes. I'd have used typedefs for every single type of function in the table. 07:11:32 I HATE embedded funcptr-proto 07:12:46 so it would be more like struct file_ops { open_func open, release_func release ... ? 07:13:14 sure - something like that is MUCH more readable, and you-too can use a ptr to the 'type' 07:13:56 --- join: virl (n=hmpf@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at) joined #forth 07:14:21 so what would the typedef of open_func look like? (Im not saavy with pointers to functions) 07:14:49 typedef FOVM* (*fffp)(FOVM*); 07:15:04 struct gluon_ 07:15:04 { 07:15:04 fffp *glue; /* Array-ptr: all ops */ 07:15:04 #if defined(FOVM_DEBUG) 07:15:04 char *ID; /* string, member: identity */ 07:15:07 #endif 07:15:09 }; 07:15:19 in fact, just 'glue' - not "*glue" 07:15:44 * PoppaVic has been reorganizing a bit - and that is not a list-ptr anymore 07:15:54 so open_func would be: 07:16:48 same as they do, but a typedef - switch in open_func for their var; and then use "open_func ;" 07:16:50 typedef open_func* (*int) (struct inode *, struct file *) 07:16:51 " 07:16:58 ? 07:17:09 no. see the typedef above 07:17:47 typedef (*)(); 07:18:03 then, " ;" 07:18:09 ah 07:18:48 so 'typedef int (*open_func)(struct inode *, struct file *)' 07:19:08 yah 07:19:15 I was confused as to where the return type and typedef identifier went 07:19:44 and, of course, it is always advisable to use ~3-chars of 'prefix_' for a "namespace" thing. 07:19:57 PoppaVic, in all fairness to the kernel developers, I don't think that they intend to churn out garbage; I would have to imagine that handling a project of that magnitude is no small feat. 07:20:07 aardvarx: I agree 07:20:27 They probably have a review process in place. 07:20:29 so it would be sensible to call it fs_open_func then? 07:20:40 I just wish they'd halt for awhile and do their goddamnedest to rewrite/organize and INSURE we get something that can permeate the universe ;-) 07:20:48 It may not seem like it because it's not perfect; 07:21:00 amca: how about just fs_open ? ;-) 07:21:28 You just wait until Metabuilder blows up; then you'll see what it's like to have an outsider heckle you! 07:21:35 PoppaVic: I thought about that for a sec... :) 07:22:06 amca: even fs_op## would work fine 07:22:24 (just not as readable to humans) 07:22:29 op##? 07:22:38 op01, 02, etc 07:22:43 ah 07:22:46 Nasty 07:23:04 well, whatever makes for the easiest mnemonic and typing 07:23:13 * amca nods 07:24:07 how about: ... FSFP("open", "op00") 07:24:08 hehe 07:24:25 use the pasting-macro 07:24:28 FSFP representing? 07:24:43 As in the acronym represents? 07:24:48 File System ...? 07:24:51 Where can I find the logs for yesterday's conversations? 07:24:54 Function Pointer? 07:25:16 #define FSFP(t,n) fs_##t fs_##n 07:25:26 Are there logs of #forth online? 07:25:45 not sure, aardvarx - but that wiki is "ready" - although I'll have to edit the header-pastes today 07:26:11 There was something important I asked you to include yesterday... I think you forgot 07:26:17 ... and so did I :( 07:26:22 lol 07:26:28 damn. Actually, it'd be: FSFP(open, op00); 07:26:57 aardvarx: I'm not suprised, I was a cat on a hot-tin-roof - dancing around my code, the channel and the wiki 07:28:21 :( 07:28:41 thinfu, are records of irc logs available? 07:28:55 never fear, one of the guys can point you to the log and you can post to wiki whenever you find it. 07:28:55 aardvarx: You dont log your irc chats? 07:29:07 amca: too damn much drive-waste 07:29:34 PoppaVic: Depends how big a drive you have 07:29:38 How do you even log irc messages? 07:29:41 waste is waste 07:29:46 lol 07:29:53 you generally set a flag and point to a dir 07:30:26 [amca@anakin tmp]$ du -sh ~/xchatlogs/ 07:30:26 I've done such for very important sideline-discussions 07:30:26 56M /home/amca/xchatlogs/ 07:30:37 That doesnt look like too much for me 07:30:39 :) 07:30:43 PoppaVic, you mean thinfu ? 07:30:49 amca - great, so you can grep for aardvarx ;-) 07:31:10 Well I need to know what time aardvarx was asking the Q 07:31:19 aardvarx: What client do you use? 07:31:34 huh? No. I meant, occasionally I might create & close a channel, invite a few guys to debate a few issues, and save THAT log so we all can get back to coding "with notes" 07:32:19 PoppaVic: When my chatlogs dir starts getting larger than the pr0n dir, *that's* when I start being concerned about disk space ;) 07:32:26 I don't normally log, because I tend to chat in ##C, #forth and sometimes #asm 07:32:55 amca, I use irssi; the question I believe was asked between 08:00 and 09:00 07:33:01 amca: as I don't "porn", I don't worry - although, I did have some decent pinups on the other machine for "wallpaper" ;-) 07:33:32 hehe 07:33:33 I could be wrong, but I think PoppaVic's comments of interest were at 08:53 07:33:45 aardvarx: Ill have a look to see if I was online 07:34:23 * aardvarx crosses fingers... 07:34:33 amca: well, on this laptop - I occasionally place it in my mothers lap so she can email other relatives.. I submit that her seeing some FINE rump might just jar her into a stroke. 07:35:02 aardvarx: did you check the quartus-site and see if they had the logs? 07:35:29 G'morning men! 07:35:35 aardvarx: I just realised we are in different time zones. How many hours ago was 8:53? 07:35:37 lo, ray 07:35:50 hehe 07:35:56 PoppaVic: Does she have any money ;) 07:35:59 Hi Ray 07:36:28 amca: Umm.. unfunny - initiate punishment level 2 for 5 minutes. 07:37:39 * amca ouches 07:38:59 Losing dad, drying mom out, and nursing gramp before losing him sorta' colors yer view about family. 07:39:15 Drying? 07:39:30 although - mind you - there are days you want to throttle folks. 07:39:38 amca, Twenty-three hours ago. 07:39:56 amca: as in the local equiv of "Betty Ford Clinic" 07:40:03 PoppaVic: Sorry. I have a morbid sense of humour. Even when it comes to my close family members dying. Ill be more mindfull 07:40:28 s'ok - np. Just be a bit more considerate for other folks ;-) 07:41:00 Insulting their dogs works; and (of course) I still feel "Married with Children" is classic. ;-) 07:43:07 aardvarx: Any idea what the important Q had to do with at all? I cant see anything that looks like an important Q that PoppaVic will get back to you about. 07:43:50 It wasn't a question; it was an answer to a question I asked about the purpose of what PoppaVic is doing (I think.) 07:44:02 aardvarx: can you recall after seeing the wiki? I know we had a huge poppa/q discussion later that culminating in Q understanding I was thinking relocatable pcode 07:44:22 I'm reading the wiki now... 07:44:28 ok 07:44:31 I think I was offline then, looking at the logs :/ 07:44:48 yeah, amca - I think you had left 07:44:57 lol 07:45:03 PoppaVic, it was something elementary, probably nothing you'd think much of. 07:45:07 in about 15, I'll need the horn - and then return for awhile 07:45:19 wish my parrents would dry out. :( 07:45:25 PoppaVic: Is that because you were actually starting to enjoy the chat at that time? ;) 07:45:28 aardvarx: well, I will answer as I can, and listen to suggestions in any event 07:45:57 amca: not in the least, I just recall a drop-off in activity. 07:46:10 PoppaVic: i read your wiki entry yesterday, I think I have a better idea what you are `going for' . 07:46:25 Ray_work: they have to decide for themselves. In our case, Ma' woulda' died very, very soon. 07:46:34 Well, why do you need a VM? Is XEN not the kind of VM you're speaking of? 07:46:47 Ray_work: cool. I tried to gather together a lot of random ideas 07:47:02 aardvarx: think of it as a "bytecode engine" 07:47:39 Is fovm_map for IO mmapping? 07:48:07 umm... oh. No, it's based on tathi's mmap ideas 07:48:20 I'm not even sure I'll worry about it overly. 07:48:33 Is it like JVM or MS-VM? 07:48:49 * aardvarx watches for anyone who draws a weapon... 07:48:53 What is it mapping to memory? 07:48:57 I don't do M$ at all, and I never (deliberately) run java 07:49:23 aardvarx: Somewhat. Both are stack based vms, but the relation between them is probably thin 07:49:23 amca: you get a space for file-access. I'm not sure I'd bother with it there 07:49:42 So it is for IO mmapping :P 07:49:46 Quartus, do you have logs of the conversation we had yesterday? 07:50:05 amca: yeah, I've never used mmap - and I'm not sure we need it there 07:50:15 Like a BLOCK thing 07:50:33 PoppaVic: You always used a seperate IO space? 07:50:41 Or just stayed away from h/ware? 07:50:48 amca: no. more like... well, I keep thinking it's not much better than just a large malloc'd buffer 07:51:29 Arnet BLOCK stuff in Forth just file buffers? 07:51:34 I've not even focussed on the i/o wordset/opset - I've been tinkering with structs and such 07:51:42 forget BLOCK. 07:51:54 think of "working-spaces" 07:52:18 as in "No. You cannot access all RAM or leave yer area-of-operations" 07:52:33 hmmm...unless I dont understand BLOCK accessing enough, it sounds the same to me 07:52:43 and maybe "Herein is the loaded image plus any space for extension" 07:53:07 historically, BLOCK access is 1K chunks. 07:53:30 I have no idea what spaces I will need at this time - I can merely make guesses. 07:54:17 Now, looking at those func-proto.... Imagine fovm_ctor and the mapping stuff comes first; or you fovm_load an image 07:54:36 ctor means what again? 07:54:45 constructor 07:54:48 ah 07:54:58 ..it'd malloc and preset the struct 07:55:32 preset meaning spaces, bases, etc 07:55:42 mapped/buffered into the VMs memory space? 07:55:57 yes, that is what mmap would do. 07:56:07 brb... lemme make that call.... 07:56:08 --- quit: PoppaVic ("Pulls the pin...") 07:56:43 I need to ask a lot of questions, but I don't want to wear down the channel... 07:57:05 aardvarx: Try one for me. Lets see how bad my brain is right now 07:57:11 perhaps a FAQ for ninnies would help. 07:57:34 Okay, what is the purpose of this VM? 07:57:47 --- quit: saon_ (Remote closed the connection) 07:58:05 Let me re-read the page again, but I guess either just as an exercise, or for platform independance 07:59:07 Very well. 08:00:41 Looks like it is meant as a generic VM, rather than specifically built for a specific application, although it looks like PoppaVic's Metacompiler project is going to use it in the future 08:02:08 --- quit: saon (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 08:02:20 Have you heard about bootstrapping compilers? 08:05:39 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pete@0-2pool238-217.nas24.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 08:05:40 --- join: saon (i=1000@c-24-129-89-116.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) joined #forth 08:05:45 --- join: saon_ (i=1000@c-24-129-89-116.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) joined #forth 08:05:54 wb 08:06:01 OK, no companytoday ;-/ 08:06:08 t'anks 08:06:11 :) 08:06:37 Weather is too ugly to think of much other than a scope-mounting - so we passed on a confab. 08:07:02 PoppaVic: I told aardvarx "Looks like it is meant as a generic VM, rather than specifically built for a specific application, although it looks like PoppaVic's Metacompiler project is going to use it in the future" when he asked what the VM was for. Is that accurate? 08:08:17 Close enough, yeah.. I always call it a vm or engine. I adopted the bytecode idea from tathi and JasonWoof - It's going to be used by Metabuilder and the assorted tools. And, I think it might offer some interesting uses across the board. 08:09:08 PoppaVic, can I have a FAQ? 08:09:09 I hesitate to suggest (anymore) that it is a "synthetic-assembler", because folks get really bent. 08:09:20 aardvarx: huh??? 08:09:37 A FAQ section on the wiki; can I have one? 08:09:53 oh, sure - feel free to add one in. 08:10:03 I never have gotten comfortable with wikis 08:10:07 lol. Why do ppl get bent at that? 08:10:14 ..I used yapp and picospan for too many years 08:10:38 amca: they get angry and hot and just don't show interest. 08:11:05 O_o Any idea why? 08:11:11 "Looks like it is meant as a generic 08:11:11 VM, rather than specifically built for a specific application, 08:11:11 although it looks like PoppaVic's Metacompiler project is going 08:11:17 oops! 08:11:20 I think it "threatens" their specialization 08:11:21 soorryy! 08:11:26 hehe 08:11:31 I was trying to copy. 08:11:33 So it is ASM ppl who fire up? 08:11:54 amca: and, of course, they never seem to realize that it would simplify porting to native and foreign formats 08:12:00 aardvarx: np 08:12:18 amca: those folks get upset for a LOT of reasons. 08:12:34 PoppaVic: But that is an abstraction above bare-metal! Heresy! ;) 08:12:40 ..it's also akin to lispers berating forth or C 08:13:10 yes, I know - I like the minimal abstraction. They seem to feel it more useful to defend their "turf" 08:13:37 What do lispers berate Forth or C for? Not being enough abstract? 08:15:05 What happens to my registeration information for the wiki? 08:15:17 In particular, name and email address. 08:15:18 no idea 08:15:41 aardvarx: It gets sent to the CIA and then you are hunted down and shot for terrorism. 08:15:46 I have no probs, aardvarx - I just used my first name and such. Nothing looked dangerous to me 08:16:34 amca: lispers and such just scream about cs issues like "continuations" and whatnot. I never try to follow it very far. 08:17:59 What I see for this 'engine' (vm) is: it won't matter if you port C or ASM - we don't CARE. We just mandate structures, steppers/interp, etc - same as forth itself. 08:18:35 steppers? 08:25:46 PTI, but how do I find what I've saved? 08:26:16 http://quartus.net/cgi-bin/twiki/view/Main/FAQ 08:26:31 I can't find that URL anywhere on the domain. 08:26:34 --- quit: PoppaVic (Nick collision from services.) 08:26:46 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pete@0-1pool47-75.nas30.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 08:26:48 aardvarx: http://quartus.net/cgi-bin/twiki/view/Main/FAQ works for me 08:26:56 god DAMN the isp 08:27:08 I need identd to do something usefule, I sweat 08:27:15 sear 08:27:18 swEAR 08:27:38 Apparently some woman named her son "god" with a lowercase 'g' so he would be humble. 08:27:40 I can't even paste wtf I last wrote now 08:28:15 amca, it's just that I don't know how to find it without the URL. 08:28:29 I officially despise the macOSX/X11 interface 08:28:50 What are we seekingnow? 08:29:57 aardvarx: You could put a link to it under 'My links' in http://quartus.net/cgi-bin/twiki/view/Main/JimiA 08:30:41 what did I miss and wherein are the issues? 08:31:25 amca, thanks! 08:32:22 Am I speaking to myself or something? I already know the isp went nuts and freenode was just as bad for a few. 08:32:55 sorry - brain half dead 08:33:04 PTI, but how do I find what I've saved? 08:33:05 http://quartus.net/cgi-bin/twiki/view/Main/FAQ 08:33:05 I can't find that URL anywhere on the domain 08:33:24 and 08:33:26 What I see for this 'engine' (vm) is: it won't matter if you port C or ASM - we don't CARE. We just mandate structures, steppers/interp, etc - same as forth itself. 08:33:27 steppers? 08:34:00 holy christ - over 3 sec to ping 08:34:00 goddamned update process 08:34:12 (the powerbook is installing a java update - not my fault) 08:34:39 steppers... the routines that can interpret the bytecodes/data and step along. 08:35:35 Ah. As in debuggers stepping through the code type thing 08:35:40 I was always anti-java mostly because their idea for "bytecodes" seemed nuts 08:35:51 Such as? 08:35:58 not really: as in "update the vm-struct and move along" 08:36:28 amca: too much, too low, with too many hand-holding issues. 08:37:03 remember, I see C as a super-asm (BAD ABI! BAD LLAMA!) and the bytecode above that, not in competition. 08:37:54 (BAD ABI! BAD LLAMA!)? 08:39:20 yeah, C and such doesn't convey sufficient info for a decent ABI 08:40:03 now.. Here is where you change yer headspace... Think of the vm/engine as a "synthetic cpu"; the opcodes as "synthetic assembler". 08:40:03 Ah. In the language specs? 08:40:35 What would be the most generic Vm that you know of? 08:40:41 yeah, to learn about the platform you need to suffer autoshit-hell or keep kernel-source (configured) around, etc. 08:41:03 this one would be "most generic". 08:41:40 What we end up with is: an API (includes structs) "spec", and part of the spec is size-info. 08:41:48 --- quit: virsys (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 08:41:59 :) Ill show you the specs of my Simple VM when I get them done 08:42:26 we also specify MANDATORY "opcodes" and "registers", and how to ADD more of either. 08:42:53 ...After that, we could generally care less - folks comply with forms and sizes, or they burn in hell. 08:43:16 hehe 08:43:31 What is the word size of it again? 32 bits isnt it? 08:43:52 the vm/engine is then akin to an "emulator" - and the opcodes/funcs are then akin to true opcodes and bios-calls. 08:44:22 Yeah, I had to agree with tathi: 32-bit is OK. But, nothing sez you can't xlate shit up or down LOCALLY 08:44:30 (or cross-compile) 08:44:55 We need one, definitive tool. 08:45:04 So fvom will run on a z80 then? ;) 08:45:08 We can then cross-compile, metacompile or whatever 08:45:35 amca: I see no reason why it would not - if someone wrote the clear cross-compile/builder. 08:45:49 What does FVOM stand for again? 08:46:01 F* Virtual * Machine ? 08:46:05 amca, sorry to bother you, are you saying that you can see what I wrote from the "My Links" section? 08:46:18 FOVM is a twist from tathi's source (forth virtual machine), I believe 08:46:43 Ah 08:46:56 I was hoping to find a simple way to get to my page from 'Main', but I can't seem to find the proper links to my home, (not to mention the FAQ). 08:46:57 aardvarx: Ill look for you 08:47:02 Thanks. 08:47:06 ..and, of course I am easy: I can global search-and-replace anytime we get a better mnemonic 08:47:15 Ive closed the tab - what is the URL again? 08:47:26 what are we loading? 08:47:35 http://quartus.net/cgi-bin/twiki/view/Main/FAQ 08:47:52 PoppaVic, I'm setting up a FAQ page for me. 08:48:03 ahhhh 08:48:59 aardvarx: U looking for http://quartus.net/cgi-bin/twiki/view/Main/JimiA ? 08:49:25 aardvarx: There isnt a simple way it seems to get from the Main page to yours 08:49:44 I'd stick the FAQ under the topic I added, but ok. 08:50:18 PoppaVic, that's what I am trying to do. 08:50:36 oh.. well, welcome to the joys of wiki-editing ;-) 08:51:06 I musta' saved/previewed and <== a dozen times yesterday 08:51:20 I guess this is not supposed to be easy... 08:51:44 no, it IS supposed to be "easy" - but it isn't really intuitive 08:51:53 I'm confuzzled. 08:52:54 you have to create a funkyLink that doesn't exist, save, then click on the supertext '?' to edit the addition 08:53:20 save THAT, and the wiki saves a real link and the new info 08:53:49 * aardvarx gets dizzy... 08:54:01 aardvarx: Edit the http://quartus.net/cgi-bin/twiki/view/Main/ForthishCvm page to add a FAQ link 08:54:13 This particular wiki demands c99ish/c++ "NamingSchemes" to add a new link 08:54:52 then save, and click the '?' after that name as it reloads. Now edit the new "page" 08:55:10 Whenever the wiki sees a multi capitalised word, it assumes it is a link to a wiki page. 08:55:37 right - and can tell if the link is broken/forward 08:56:08 I can create a link if you want. 08:56:08 Can you see my addition? 08:56:09 lol : "The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching should, therefore, be regarded as a criminal offence." 08:56:18 Then you can finish it off 08:56:38 amca: and cobol is like perl 08:57:12 verbose and overly english-like with really sad twists 08:57:24 aardvarx: It would be better if you added it as a link in the main body text rather than as a comment, and make sure you are logged in when you do it - it came up as done by a guest 08:57:29 dBIII and such had those issues 08:57:43 How do I log in? 08:57:50 I thought I did already. 08:58:00 No idea sorry 08:58:01 create an account? Mine seems to automagically login 08:58:25 PoppaVic: Any idea why Grace made COBOL so fugly? 08:58:56 no idea - I managed to skip cobol 08:59:57 I encountered cobol after a few years of fortran - and I nuked everything related to them in my home. 09:00:20 hehe 09:00:23 dont blame you 09:00:59 aardvarx: load the page; edit it; save it - the FAQ ref should be broken with '?'. click the ? and edit the subpage; save. 09:01:26 wiki are NOT as friendly as simple bbs 09:01:38 they are just more attractive after-the-fact 09:02:25 * amca has never really seen a BBS 09:02:41 amca: dBASE was anothe mess.. There comes a point where the stupidity of trying to "speak english" is just not a programming-language "plus" 09:03:13 grex and mnet both still retain yapp/pico bbs software. It's entertaining some days. 09:03:18 Well coding is a cros between instructions and maths anyhow 09:03:34 so is english 09:03:47 it's the forms. 09:03:52 or "semantics" 09:04:51