00:00:00 --- log: started forth/05.08.23
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06:50:04 <PoppaVic> Howdy
06:59:42 <Quartus> Hey howdy.
06:59:52 <PoppaVic> how goes it?
07:00:16 <Quartus> It goes!
07:00:20 <Quartus> You?
07:01:03 <PoppaVic> Well.. I've had to fall back and begin consolidation - it seems unlikely that I will (anytime soon) puzzle out a mechanized way to ascertain ABI.
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08:01:46 <PoppaVic> lo, herk
08:01:57 <JasonWoof> good morning :0
08:03:56 <PoppaVic> What might you be able to tell me of the herk/tathi vm stuff you guys mentioned yesterday?
08:04:37 <PoppaVic> I'm sitting here sorta' wheel-spinning on high-idle, trying to decide where to dive and thrash next.
08:05:09 <JasonWoof> did you see the instruction set I posted yesterday?
08:05:22 <JasonWoof> hmmm... mighta been in a different channel
08:05:28 <PoppaVic> I think there were a few lines of forthish prims I saw
08:06:05 <JasonWoof> yeah
08:06:07 <JasonWoof> dup drop over swap nip rot >r >>r r@ r> rdrop call ; b ?b 0; f; ?; t; ? = < u< & | ^ ~ and or xor not >> <>> << <<> s>> + - * / /mod 1+ 1- 4+ 4* 8+ lit nexti >a a +@ b+@ +! b+!
08:06:15 <PoppaVic> ok.
08:06:20 <JasonWoof> syscall
08:06:28 <JasonWoof> we haven't realy thought the syscall stuff through
08:06:53 <PoppaVic> these are basically gymnastics calls, then. Yeah, shit - I have no IDEA how to syscall, based on the manpages on the powerbook.
08:06:58 <JasonWoof> we're packing instructions into 32-bit words
08:07:06 <JasonWoof> 6 bits each. low bits first
08:07:30 <PoppaVic> this is, then, asm-leveraged directly?
08:07:46 <JasonWoof> instruction 0 is NEXTI which loads the next instruction word
08:08:06 <JasonWoof> tathi is writing an implemenatation of the virtual machine in asm
08:08:24 <PoppaVic> ok, I guess I have to look forward to seeing something concreteish
08:08:37 <JasonWoof> I'm going to change herkforth so that instead of compiling to ppc instructions, it will compile to the above instructions as described
08:08:57 <PoppaVic> ahhhh - I was going to mention something similar
08:08:59 <JasonWoof> we haven't worked out exactly how you run the vm
08:09:13 <PoppaVic> I'd use a lib/object
08:09:44 <PoppaVic> static or dynamic, the end would be the same.
08:10:25 <JasonWoof> I was thinking of having the vm be a regular executable, and you pass the filename of the image to it
08:10:50 <PoppaVic> If I saw enough info, I could prolly crank a C version. WHich'd be interesting.
08:11:03 <JasonWoof> for convenience, the first line of the image could be a #!/home/herka/dev/herkvm/herkvm sort of thing
08:11:05 <PoppaVic> JasonWoof: the only prob I see with that is the same as with gforth
08:11:33 <JasonWoof> so you can run your image directly from the cmdline as though it were a binary
08:11:37 <PoppaVic> hmm
08:11:47 <JasonWoof> can do the same with gforth...
08:12:03 <JasonWoof> oh, I definitely plan on having a C version
08:12:19 <JasonWoof> I'd like this to run on x86, preferably winblows
08:12:20 <PoppaVic> OK, *THAT* former I can deal with; gforth uses freaky binary-blocks to feed the engine or convert to a lousy "header"
08:12:24 <JasonWoof> and I'm not going to learn x86 asm
08:13:04 <PoppaVic> yeah, I don't WANT to learn _any_ asm - damn near as populous and obtuse and psychosis and phobias
08:13:16 <PoppaVic> and psy/AS psy
08:15:00 <PoppaVic> I believe what you guys are skirting is a "portable assembler" basis/mechanism. WHich is all to the good.
08:15:11 <JasonWoof> yep
08:15:52 <PoppaVic> Well, that sorta' thin[kg] is where Metabuilder is leading me.
08:16:39 <JasonWoof> yeah, basically we've gotten the native code down to a tiny core
08:16:52 <JasonWoof> you can make a super-cool jit compiler or whatever if you like
08:17:03 <JasonWoof> but even if you don't it will "just work"
08:20:33 <PoppaVic> right, which is exactly the "core" (snicker!) "issue"
08:21:40 <JasonWoof> I keep finding that I'm more and more interested in "just works" rather than speed
08:22:08 <JasonWoof> I want simplecity and consistancy
08:22:20 <PoppaVic> What I've been seeing is this: 1) asm, even with the same CPU - on different platforms - is just NOT the same; 2) between gcc and gas, there is no way to ascertain which is where and how - consistently; 3) FFI is almost the universal ass-suck.
08:22:50 <JasonWoof> yep
08:23:13 <JasonWoof> need to use C or an even higher level language to get cross-platform compatibility
08:23:31 <PoppaVic> We all know #define, some know of #pragma, and a very few know of #predicate. headers are also here to stay.
08:23:39 <PoppaVic> Right.
08:23:44 <JasonWoof> or do something very simple and have people port the asm
08:23:51 <JasonWoof> I plan to do both :)
08:24:32 <JasonWoof> ok, gotta go catch a bus. bbl
08:24:36 <PoppaVic> well, either you need some damned simple asm - and headers and macros and such - or you need C.
08:24:40 <PoppaVic> laters, stay well
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14:45:06 <slava> hi I440r 
14:45:38 <I440r> hi slava :)
14:48:04 <slava> i'm adding support for animation to my gui toolkit :)
14:52:27 <I440r> cool :)
14:53:35 <slava> i can finally have a blinking cursor :)
14:53:43 <slava> and scroll bars that keep scrolling if you hold the button
14:56:04 <I440r> lol
15:05:26 <JasonWoof> heh :)
15:05:35 <JasonWoof> last time I sat down and worked on Dunes Trader I made the cursor blink
15:05:41 <I440r> well i gotta go 
15:08:18 <slava> JasonWoof, how's herkforth?
15:08:25 <JasonWoof> ok
15:08:29 <JasonWoof> haven't worked on it much lately
15:08:32 <JasonWoof> vacation and work
15:08:44 <JasonWoof> but tathi's working on a vm
15:09:04 <JasonWoof> well, I worked on it with him
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18:27:53 <Quartus> Hey all.
18:29:07 <crc> hi Quartus
18:30:50 <Quartus> Hey. What's new?
18:34:02 <crc> nothing much
18:34:22 <slava> hi crc
18:35:06 <crc> hi slava
18:35:41 * crc is considering what to do next in his debugger (other than expand the number of recognized opcodes)
18:38:10 * slava is optimizing factor's GUI toolkit
18:38:25 <slava> i threw up 10000 widgets, and its struggling horribly
18:38:46 <sproingie> i suppose that's better than the 100 widget crawl from before :)
18:50:48 <slava> its going to be really fast in the end...
18:51:08 <slava> i'm working on spacial indexing at the moment for finding visible children
18:52:38 <sproingie> spiffy
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23:12:59 <JasonWoof> http://albinoblacksheep.com/image/chalkboard/
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