00:00:00 --- log: started forth/05.08.19 00:51:08 --- quit: swalters (Connection timed out) 00:58:58 whats as psc chip ? 01:22:30 --- join: asymptote (n=weldon@pool-68-239-105-49.res.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 01:40:35 --- quit: asymptote ("Leaving") 02:35:24 --- join: gokr (n=gk@207.210.65.31) joined #forth 02:35:41 Hi. 02:36:45 I have a little pet project that I am investigating. 02:37:18 Which is to implement a very small "nucleus" for forth, just for fun. 02:37:53 So... I have been looking at various really small forths. 02:42:03 hmm there are alot :) 02:42:14 erm minforth min4th ? 02:42:23 i think its a small forth written for dos using the a86 assembler 02:42:25 but i forget 02:44:26 I looked at a few last night, don't remember exactly which ones but eForth, postForth etc. Even looked at buzzard (Obfuscated C contest). 02:45:08 One had a nucleus of around 400 lines of x86 assembler. Pretty neat. And Buzzard was a real trip to read about. 02:46:04 But I would be more interested to find a description of a small Forth subset (the words and what they do) that can then be used to bootstrap the rest of forth implemented in itself. 02:46:15 --- join: I440r_ (n=foo@216-177-162-213.block0.gvtc.com) joined #forth 02:46:23 In other words - reading x86 assembly is a bit rough. 02:46:31 heh x86 is easy :) 02:46:38 do you code asm at all ? 02:46:39 Well, perhaps. :) 02:46:41 some other processor ? 02:46:49 It was a long time ago, 6502 (C64). 02:46:55 aha cool :) 02:47:04 So sure, it can alwaysy be picked up. 02:47:14 ya 02:47:40 Anyway, the idea is to write this small nucleus in Squeak or possibly directly in Squeak bytecodes. 02:47:51 ouch 02:48:07 heh well it sounds like an interesting project :) 02:48:22 It is not meant to be of practical performance, more like an interesting thing. 02:48:22 u shud hang in here while u do it too cuz ull find alot of ppl with ideas in here 02:48:28 sometimes conflicting ideas :P 02:48:44 my forth wasnt designed to be a high performance forth 02:48:50 its meant to be easy to understand 02:49:02 neway i gtg 02:49:07 its almost 5 am here 02:49:10 i gtg zzz 02:49:12 nite 02:49:13 :) 02:49:58 --- quit: I440r_ (Client Quit) 02:50:52 What is it written in? 02:50:56 Your forth? 02:51:19 Ah, missed him. 02:53:10 --- quit: madgarden (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 03:03:27 --- quit: I440r__ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 03:09:30 --- nick: gokr -> gokr-lunch 03:31:40 --- join: qFox (n=C00K13S@92pc222.sshunet.nl) joined #forth 03:32:00 anybody know roberts current homepage? 03:32:11 robos.org seems to be down... temp or perm i cant really tell 03:32:27 'scheduled downtime' can mean anything, especially from robert :p 04:23:49 --- nick: gokr-lunch -> gokr 04:54:40 --- quit: qFox ("this quit is sponsored by somebody!") 05:33:13 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pete@0-1pool47-89.nas30.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 05:33:47 Lo 05:41:51 --- join: swalters (n=swalters@2416457hfc118.tampabay.res.rr.com) joined #forth 06:16:25 --- quit: gokr (Remote closed the connection) 06:32:40 --- quit: Raystm2 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 06:34:22 --- join: Raystm2 (n=vircuser@adsl-68-95-254-73.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 06:36:38 --- quit: Raystm2 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 06:38:09 --- join: Raystm2 (n=vircuser@adsl-68-95-254-73.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 06:38:49 --- quit: docl (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 06:39:58 --- quit: Raystm2 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 06:41:49 --- join: Raystm2 (n=vircuser@adsl-68-95-254-73.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 06:44:20 --- nick: Raystm2 -> nanstm 07:03:37 --- join: snoopy_16 (i=snoopy_1@dsl-084-058-170-065.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 07:11:19 --- join: sproingie (i=foobar@64-121-15-14.c3-0.sfrn-ubr8.sfrn.ca.cable.rcn.com) joined #forth 07:11:31 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 07:11:37 --- nick: snoopy_16 -> Snoopy42 07:11:42 hiya, sproingie 07:12:08 morn 07:20:41 --- join: [aardvark] (n=folajimi@shell1.sea5.speakeasy.net) joined #forth 07:40:31 --- quit: swalters (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 08:18:35 --- join: docl (n=docl@dpcbw099186.direcpc.com) joined #forth 08:19:58 g'day 08:20:07 howdy 08:21:09 I began writing that doc last night, paused, and argued in #asm today. I believe the problem is beyond most folks 08:21:43 possibly. maybe I should visit #asm 08:22:20 I think the issues are so pandemic we'd need to write a Synthetic-Assembler and con gcc into using it. 08:23:27 might work. with proper optimizations, would it be as fast as a regular assembler? 08:25:00 My view would be, design a synthetic engine and regs that span what We Know. and compile/expand on variants, and assemble/embed where we have intersection - so, yeah. Speed would be a variant based on ho far from ideal the platform really was. 08:25:53 but it would be extremely portable 08:25:54 I would be suprised if the code-generated varied by more than 10% 08:27:19 And, if that Synthasm used a few absultely mandatory-installed headers and cpp/preprocessing defines, then propogating UP would be easy, and propagating downward would be one-time and the chore 08:28:10 I failed to communicate this at ALL to the #asm folks, near as I can tell. Most of those are worried about manually 'optimizing' registers 08:29:17 well that's their focus, why they're into assembley to start with. people obsessed with portability are more likely to be into C 08:30:21 forth's kinda intermediate between the two, I guess 08:30:47 yeah, somerthing like that there, yah ;-) 08:31:23 portability is a hugely important thing, I think, but then so is cleanness and smallness, which lead to fastness 08:31:43 Anyway, I've been examining code for weeks... We have major informational-issues and I think this implies either a completely new system, or getting in low and early. 08:32:29 so, something tiny and clean in the right spot could really straighten out the tangle a lot 08:32:56 As an example, from C, I grepped the gcc source (latest) and managed to learn a lot about defines/predicates for everything they support - and it AIN'T PRETTY. 08:33:07 yes, that is what I am considering 08:34:00 well, asm folks may not get that first try because they're kind of used to messiness. 08:34:02 I'd be willing to bet we need a new synthasm, cpp and maybe make/shell combo 08:34:14 but they are the ones with enough skills to do this 08:34:52 oddly, when I suggested we could easily accomidate specific asm-modules/.o, I was basically brushed-off 08:35:28 I think the people making cpp and make/shell probably wish the core stuff was cleaner as much as you do 08:35:37 I'm sure they do 08:35:59 so they might be able to take care of that end 08:36:08 Anyway, I think we have a goal/goals, now I need to cogitate and solicit ideas and manhours 08:36:14 yeah 08:37:12 Ideally, we want to start with headers and C that can report BACK information for gcc and gas builds. Unless I am mistaken. 08:37:56 Now, weirdly: gcc embeds cpp nowadays, but can use an external program too. 08:38:05 asm/gas, I dunno 08:38:41 i've seen one program that actually used m4 instead of cpp 08:38:59 ugh 08:39:02 it was as nasty looking as you think it was, yes 08:39:08 --- join: alden (n=alden@pdpc/supporter/active/WindowsBreakerG4) joined #forth 08:39:18 better yet, it depended on the m4 version. newer versions broke it 08:39:19 m4 has always made me ill. 08:39:22 --- part: alden left #forth 08:39:36 m4 is awful 08:39:38 m4 always struck me as a half-assed perl/awk mess 08:40:45 what's humorous is that autoshit relies on posix-support, and a large number of external programs/filters - AND m4, if not perl 08:40:55 it relies on m4. no perl. 08:41:13 afaik, perl was required for doze(dos?), instead of m4 08:41:25 but, you see what I mean 08:41:28 i've never heard of it working on windows 08:41:41 it's always needed a posix sh 08:41:45 then throw "maybe 'sh'" at it ;-) 08:42:09 it works fine on cygwin, though of course the process start overhead on windows is extreme 08:42:16 so it's always dreadfully slow 08:42:24 yeah, so... I guess I was right about where to begin 08:42:44 scons is able to do autoconf-like things 08:43:01 and, the advantage is that we also slip in under corss-compiling issues. 08:43:02 there's some spiritual successor to scons going around, but i already forgot what it is 08:43:22 pscons? I dunno, perl, python, something 08:43:45 naw, it's like "ABC" or something like that 08:43:46 each mandates a full-up bross-compiled binary, at the least 08:43:54 jam? 08:43:59 no, it's a python thing 08:44:08 jam's all right, reminds me a bit too much of imake tho 08:44:12 Trust me, I downloaded all of them and did an overview 08:44:14 is what we're talking about a microkernel or something like that? 08:44:20 no 08:44:40 jam requires this jambase, and it's incapable of making guesses 08:44:45 that makes it really fast but really brittle 08:44:46 docl: what we seem to need is a consistent, translucent systemic solution. 08:44:58 jam's really a make replacement, not an autotools replacement 08:45:04 right 08:45:13 a synthetic assembler 08:45:29 Make's problem was reliance on a shell that isn't portable 08:45:42 i'd say a macro-heavy problem like this calls for lisp, but people just won't accept the syntax 08:45:49 docl: headers, and a tool - yes - that is synthetic 08:46:02 anyway, i gotta get going 08:46:13 ok see ya 08:46:20 yeah, sorry - I respect lisp, but I'd never use it - and really, what we want to always filter FOO into BAR 08:46:26 well forth has macros 08:46:32 retro does anyway 08:46:46 well, my def and theirs might vary 08:47:38 near as I can tell, most young Forthers see a macro as 'inline' - not "redirect the input-stream" 08:48:43 Anyway, I'm about ready for a brisk nap. Please consider what we've mentioned and let it stew - we can talk more tomorrow ;-) 08:48:52 ok, see ya 08:48:57 ok, stay well 08:49:01 --- quit: PoppaVic ("Pulls the pin...") 09:40:27 --- quit: ayrnieu (Remote closed the connection) 09:40:29 --- join: ayrnieu (n=julian@ip68-13-110-105.om.om.cox.net) joined #forth 09:52:47 --- part: [aardvark] left #forth 09:53:56 --- join: madwork_ (n=madgarde@derby.metrics.com) joined #forth 09:59:24 --- join: swalters (n=swalters@2416457hfc118.tampabay.res.rr.com) joined #forth 10:04:30 --- quit: madwork (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 10:45:54 --- quit: cmeme (Remote closed the connection) 10:54:59 --- quit: danniken- () 11:29:55 --- quit: slava ("Bye bye") 11:49:48 --- nick: madwork_ -> madwork 12:07:56 --- join: virl (n=hmpf@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at) joined #forth 12:12:27 --- quit: docl (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 12:28:13 --- join: docl (n=docl@dpcbw099186.direcpc.com) joined #forth 12:46:58 --- join: cmeme (n=cmeme@216.184.11.2) joined #forth 12:47:16 --- quit: cmeme (Remote closed the connection) 12:48:01 --- join: cmeme (n=cmeme@216.184.11.2) joined #forth 13:06:30 --- quit: docl (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 13:08:40 --- join: docl (n=docl@dpcbw099186.direcpc.com) joined #forth 13:50:37 --- join: Topaz (n=top@spc1-horn1-6-0-cust128.cosh.broadband.ntl.com) joined #forth 14:06:56 --- quit: docl (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 14:56:37 --- quit: YoyoFreeBSD_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 15:05:41 hi all 15:08:04 --- nick: nanstm -> Raystm2 15:16:02 crc - howdy. 16:10:38 --- join: madgarden (n=madgarde@Kitchener-HSE-ppp3577192.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 16:33:47 --- join: fridge (n=fridge@2001:388:f000:0:0:0:0:33b) joined #forth 16:35:36 --- quit: Topaz (Remote closed the connection) 17:12:01 --- join: slava (n=slava@CPE0080ad77a020-CM000e5cdfda14.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 17:18:32 Hi all. 17:18:33 what's up? 17:44:13 --- quit: ayrnieu ("system") 17:48:08 --- join: aum (n=aum@60.234.156.82) joined #forth 17:52:39 hey Quartus 17:57:36 Hey slava. 17:58:36 --- join: docl (n=docl@67-138-198-36.bras01.mcl.id.frontiernet.net) joined #forth 18:02:55 --- join: TheBlueWizard (i=TheBlueW@ts001d0882.wdc-dc.xod.concentric.net) joined #forth 18:04:29 hi tbw 18:04:56 hiya slava :) 18:18:47 well, gotta wander...bye! 18:20:15 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth 18:52:48 --- join: Megz (n=zgem@vnnyca-cuda1-cablebdl-70-34-222-38.vnnyca.adelphia.net) joined #forth 18:52:52 --- part: Megz left #forth 18:56:05 --- join: saon (i=1000@c-66-177-224-235.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) joined #forth 18:57:59 --- quit: Raystm2 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 18:59:34 --- join: Raystm2 (n=vircuser@adsl-68-95-254-73.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 19:48:00 --- quit: swalters ("User disconnected") 19:51:51 --- join: swalters (n=swalters@2416457hfc118.tampabay.res.rr.com) joined #forth 20:44:20 --- nick: skylan_ -> skylan 22:02:46 --- join: LOOP-HOG (n=chatzill@sub22-119.member.dsl-only.net) joined #forth 22:02:49 hi 22:03:20 join #c4th-ot 22:59:38 --- quit: sproingie (Remote closed the connection) 23:06:28 --- quit: LOOP-HOG () 23:19:09 --- quit: Raystm2 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 23:20:26 --- join: Raystm2 (n=vircuser@adsl-68-95-254-73.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/05.08.19