00:00:00 --- log: started forth/05.08.18 00:01:02 --- join: ramkrsna (n=ramkrsna@61.2.69.3) joined #forth 00:07:55 --- quit: madwork (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 00:16:39 --- quit: swalters (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 00:42:01 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@adsl-69-155-177-153.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net) joined #forth 00:45:14 --- quit: snowrichard ("Leaving") 01:05:29 --- quit: ramkrsna (Remote closed the connection) 03:12:05 --- join: binaryguy (n=binarygu@host86-131-187-90.range86-131.btcentralplus.com) joined #forth 03:26:03 --- quit: binaryguy ("Leaving") 04:27:34 --- join: Teratogen (i=leontopo@intertwingled.net) joined #forth 04:27:37 greetings, earthlings 04:58:02 --- quit: Teratogen ("KVIrc 3.2.0 'Realia'") 05:05:35 At least our planet is bluer than his. 05:37:12 --- join: ramkrsna (n=ramkrsna@61.2.66.122) joined #forth 05:37:33 --- nick: Raystm2 -> nansym 05:38:00 --- nick: nansym -> nanstm 06:08:29 --- quit: ramkrsna ("Rusty's brain rusted!!!") 06:18:14 --- join: madwork (n=madgarde@derby.metrics.com) joined #forth 06:31:56 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pete@0-2pool236-125.nas22.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 06:32:17 G'day 06:33:03 howdy 06:33:24 What's the latest news? 06:35:09 I'm trying to ack a compiler abuse written in rf 06:35:24 ack? 06:35:42 or grok or whatever 06:35:49 oh, looking for a place to protect against Yet Another Exception Case? '-) 06:35:51 trying to understand it 06:36:16 hehe 06:38:10 you can be sure that it's due to an assumption and it's a lovely lil'-exception put there to drive you insane. 06:39:13 I found myself some interesting material in the gcc source yesterday... Still confused about wtf to do with it, but I love the fact the there is a consistent-inconsistency *sigh* 06:40:42 well what it is is a set of functions that act kind of like comments, skipping the intervening code when placed within another function. but it does so in a twisted sort of way 06:40:58 of course it does 06:41:10 heh, consistent-inconsistency? 06:41:17 yep. 06:42:21 oh great, some kind of flag? 06:42:29 The consistent part is the inconsistency across the sky: the files are organized, they just don't match a pattern we can ascertain; and they hold similar data - but the way it is held and the form of the data is inconsistent as well 06:42:57 ok 06:43:08 grep -r builtin_[da][es][fs][ie][nr] /DEV/gcc-*/*gcc/config/*|grep '\/config\/' 06:43:21 that bugs me as well when I see it 06:43:28 strange that it would still work 06:43:44 well, the entire gcc mess is rather depressing 06:44:07 I love working WITH gcc, but gcc itself is a whore I have no interest in working within 06:44:21 hehe 06:45:08 The above grep manages to list all builtin_[define|assert] for every cpu/platform. 06:45:24 So, methinks I shall rip them out into a database. 06:53:07 --- join: sproingie (i=foobar@64-121-15-14.c3-0.sfrn-ubr8.sfrn.ca.cable.rcn.com) joined #forth 06:54:50 --- quit: sproingie (Remote closed the connection) 07:03:21 --- join: snoopy_16 (i=snoopy_1@dsl-084-058-159-119.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 07:11:38 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 07:11:43 --- nick: snoopy_16 -> Snoopy42 08:34:48 OK, who's awake? Question-time... 08:35:59 I'm here, fire away 08:36:16 OK... I'm beginning to think I've hit a wall. 08:37:05 I'm not sure, but it seems to me that most asm assumes a stack, ops/args, data and maybe segs. But, thestack(frame) seems basic 08:37:41 It's when we hit forthish we EXPECT 2 stacks (or more) 08:38:29 I'm cogitating the whole mess, and all I can think of is: asm has *THE* stack, and every vm above that needs at least one more stack. 08:39:31 And, atop that, I see mostly variants and inconsistencies in every corner even from the 'asm' level 08:41:06 I'm not even sure that all cpu USE a stack, let alone allow us access. 08:41:50 on the ppc, I get the impression they like to use like 8-regs for arg-passing, which would normally mean the stack was redundant to called code. 08:42:10 Frankly, I'm just this side of mind-fucked 08:43:02 yeah, are stacks in the cpu or are they all emulated? 08:43:09 right 08:43:25 are segs there - or emulated? 08:43:51 do we HAVE a sp and ip and (whatever), or are we faking every step of the way? 08:44:08 hard for me to say, but I would guess the registers are actually stacks 08:44:17 I'm getting seriously confuzzled and depressed 08:44:28 time to google it out 08:44:34 useless 08:44:39 been there; done that 08:45:31 Most refs like x86. and there has been not one site I've found that compares architectures/calling-return/stackframe concentions 08:46:07 wikipedia has an article on stacks 08:46:45 I know HOW stacks work, but the problem is existing code/cpu/platforms/compilers/assemblers and conventions 08:47:46 I simply am coming to believe that the current crop of platforms is broken at the basic levels 08:48:11 because they don't have a stack? or because they don't use the one they have? 08:48:33 it's more than just the stack. It's the regs, the stackframe, the args. 08:49:39 Broken how? 08:50:01 There seems no portable way to ascertain platform, cpu, stackframe, reg-use(disuse), etc, etc. 08:50:15 What we have is folks that learn one platform/cpu 08:50:30 not even learning C helps a lot on these issues 08:51:25 These days it's rare that anyone bothers to learn asm at all. 08:51:30 Quartus: presume you are writing C and need to include some .asm; or reverse: asm calling libc - and you have to write for several platforms. 08:51:52 not at all, but they tend to speak of "asm" as though it were portable. 08:52:10 heh 08:52:13 I haven't encountered people speaking that way. 08:52:33 Quartus: hang out in #asm a few weeks 08:52:57 ..they make assumptions that are quite confusing, before mentioning x86 regs at some point. 08:53:24 but, this is a minor point 08:53:41 well some of the basics are similar. but with different architectures you'd have to expect some differences 08:54:01 Instead, think of the platform: something must be running we can use, but you can't learn what you need at assorted levels 08:54:38 autoshit itself makes so many assumptions about what is executable that it's frightening 08:55:15 I keep thinking that we are simply missing something pretty simple. 08:55:30 likely right 08:56:31 processors should all be identical 08:57:04 no 08:57:32 but, there should be some portable way to learn where the hell you are and what is available 08:58:49 Otherwise, we are going to be forever restricted to cross-compiled binaries for installation. 09:00:24 hmm, a simple way to see what's there. without reading the docs 09:00:32 always a nice feature 09:00:59 docs are lovely. Code can't think, and programmers should be able to avoid a LOT of reading. 09:01:10 especially if you're trying to automate it 09:01:50 as a rule, C is portable (ansi, and maybe posix) but the mechanisms and OPTIONS are the killer-part 09:02:53 I always liked the gcc -S option, but shit goes to hell above and below 09:03:00 ahahaha 09:03:07 are we arguing about C again 09:06:47 docl: anyway, yeah.... I'm beginning to see we need a forth-based/vm assembler UNDERNEATH and ways to propogate intel as we encapsulate/extend 09:07:13 hey that might work 09:07:19 underneath the C 09:07:26 also 09:07:32 is a docl like a decl 09:07:48 yeah, that's what I am thinking. 09:08:21 yeah, send instructions and I will execute them :P 09:08:59 well, it gets a bit more complicated. But I'm beginning to believe it's the only alternative to the current chaos. 09:10:28 At this point, I've no idea how to elf/mach gen a binary mechanically, because they are just poorly supported. But, yeah: there is a solution in there. 09:11:16 probably so, good luck finding it 09:11:36 yep, that 'tude I'm used to seeing ;-/ 09:12:05 I'll keep my eyes peeled if I can though 09:12:22 well, I'm beginning to think it's moot. 09:12:42 I am just one guy The interest seems very low. 09:13:11 well it might be something really worth doing. sounds like it to me 09:13:32 near as I can tell, it would mean cross-compiling to begin with. 09:14:36 ..mostly because I doubt you can find an asm-programmer all over 09:18:44 I've always considered C a portable assembler. 09:19:08 myself as well, sadly: FFI is not integrated 09:27:20 --- join: [aardvark] (n=folajimi@shell3.sea5.speakeasy.net) joined #forth 09:28:05 <[aardvark]> Hi. Can anyone here tell me how I can get more information on Forth? 09:28:37 fig.org 09:30:46 --- quit: ayrnieu (Remote closed the connection) 09:30:48 --- join: ayrnieu (n=julian@ip68-13-110-105.om.om.cox.net) joined #forth 09:31:20 <[aardvark]> PoppaVic: That had no relevant information; it's more of a spiritual/philosophical website. 09:32:31 aard: what is it you seek? 09:33:28 <[aardvark]> I believe there is a BrothersBSD project that seeks Forth programmers; I would like to know more about both. 09:33:49 no idea. Never heard of it 09:34:09 <[aardvark]> A raison d'être, if you will 09:34:40 Keep talking like that, you'd be better off at the spiritual/philosophical website. :) 09:34:51 I've already concluded we need a new project, but *sigh* Unlikely to ever see action 09:35:26 * [aardvark] braces for Quartus' impending clobbering. 09:36:06 <[aardvark]> PoppaVic, what did you have in mind? 09:37:05 [aardvark]: I've been struggling for months on a project that I believe needs a core, multiple programmers and maybe a new translator/cross-compiler. 09:37:51 <[aardvark]> PoppaVic, what is the problem? 09:37:56 I've concluded we need a forthism VM system at the kernel-level and above 09:38:17 the idea is to make a simple autoconf interface for each compiler, correct? 09:38:43 I frankly despise autoshit, and every time I think of even generating autoshit, I get the willies 09:39:33 docl: and, mind you, I've CONSIDERED trying to generate autoshit files/source for everything 09:40:08 but, the issues are simply under and past that abortion 09:42:07 ok so we come up with a forthish vm, runs on all instruction sets. do we then port C compilers to it? 09:42:09 In fact,the current crop of ansi/posix shit is a bandaid akin to doze 09:42:20 PoppaVic, why don't you draw up a proposal that outlines your idea? 09:42:37 Quartus: not sure exactly what it would mean, the format, or the forum 09:42:44 I'm still a little fuzzy about what's being proposed, sorry 09:42:51 The first thing is to concretize what you're suggesting. 09:42:55 docl: I'd imagine we would need something similar, yes 09:42:57 With advantages/disadvantages. 09:43:31 Quartus: I know, and agree - but I usually get zero feedback - and now I'm getting some interest. Organizing ideas on the fly is painful ;-) 09:44:00 I mean, I'm currently involved (at least in spirit) with retroforth, which I could picture working as a surface on which to make cross-platform c compilers 09:44:00 These things have to be the brainchild of somebody, and in this case it's you. You'll have to nail down what your vision is, in order to see if others agree and want to join in. 09:44:26 well, I should prolly then park my tinkering and crank up a new html doc 09:45:25 I think what we all are suffering is a variety of primadonna's with special axe-grinding. 09:46:22 ..and atop that, we've shit that seems to think that translation to lower levels is something they can live w/o - forcing Yet Another System into the mix 09:47:46 hmm so keep it as minimal as possible 09:47:57 yeah, I'm thinking overview 09:48:13 while still getting the desired result 09:48:49 Find a spot on a wiki where people can add comments, get yourself rolling. 09:48:55 well, the kicker is to carry UP shit from lower and lower - at least in a way that can be ascertained at higher and higher levels 09:48:57 Go ahead and use the Quartus wiki if you wish. 09:49:06 where is that? 09:49:10 http://quartus.net/wiki 09:49:23 loading 09:50:11 ok, bookmarked - thanks 09:50:15 putting rf in it's entirety into the mix might not be right, but I'm thinking there's a few common problems that it might have solved in a clean way, and the code's all pd 09:50:42 Yes, it's the common-prob stuff that has been bothering me for years, and really eating me lately 09:51:40 I'd want the core PD, and then we manage everything we feel significant past the core - to keep M$ and such from fucking up the works 09:52:01 or better, we use your system to make rf more cross-platform 09:52:11 sure, that would be minimal 09:52:53 --- quit: madwork ("*frotz*") 09:52:53 the kicker is, the system has to be what they now call "reflective" insofar as HAVE a goddamned "need to know" above and below. 09:53:15 --- join: madwork (n=madgarde@derby.metrics.com) joined #forth 09:53:24 you can't interface shit to diddly w/o info as to conventions. 09:53:48 accessing the info on conventions MUST be consistent. 09:54:27 ok, and the conventions vary from one platform to another 09:54:43 so there has to be an easy way to tell which ones are being used 09:56:02 righto 09:56:26 from syscalls to the kernel/os to executables and a shell. 09:57:07 and, I have no real issues considering filters/translators/transmogrifiers AROUND existing tools 09:58:12 I think the huge issue is the basic assumptions that there is no "need to know" above or below something. 09:59:37 hmm yeah. like, people think there's an impermeable layer 09:59:43 Atop that, add the inconsistences from shells and executables 10:00:09 but every so often, you do need to know and reach a different layer in a clean way 10:00:14 uname is an example, config.guess even wraps THAT to make it more0useful 10:00:35 right 10:01:16 you need to be able to expect some consistent basics; and feel free to hurl and shit all over systems that feel they are "special" 10:01:55 docl: hell, we must even allow for moronic distros that evade the FHS in many ways. 10:03:22 Ideally, we'd write some basics, and feed the kernel-src/gcc-src/gas-src and such THROUGH those basics 10:04:23 or, perhaps we need a new /dev driver/deamon There has got to be a way to clean it all up 10:05:44 anyway, let me think about an html doc and the wiki. I suspect it's needed, but we would dedinitely need more than me coding it: one-man projects seem to dead. 10:07:06 I tend to get enthused then run out of steam before it's done, a lot of times 10:07:41 yes, that is often a sign of youth. It's depressing 10:08:23 but what I can do today, I'm happy to donate. 10:08:36 never to be ignored, certainly 10:08:46 and probably for several days thereafter :) 10:10:04 standardization. because there's not enough out there. not in the right places anyway 10:10:31 right 10:10:53 they standardize trivia, instead of interfaces to ABI 10:11:14 --- join: virl (n=hmpf@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at) joined #forth 10:13:37 yeah, it's the basic building blocks that need standardized. enduser stuff helps popularity, but low level stuff helps the programmer 10:13:44 right 10:14:01 and the user, really. because they get a better choice of apps 10:14:13 you standardize the basics/ABI and then let each API standardize THEIR OWN issues 10:14:23 right 10:15:10 the only requirement being, you must be able to ascertain ABI's from above and below. 10:18:09 I'm still not sure how advanced this is going to be. a lookup table? an entire kernel-like program? 10:18:18 hmm... filters.... 10:19:03 I can make nifty little perl apps sometimes 10:19:03 Not sure - let's table it for a few days. Fee free to email me ideas and concepts/comments: mailto://pfv@hypercon.net 10:19:44 all right. 10:19:45 the thing is: how much can the HOST even expect around? 10:20:55 I'm not even sure what the HOST should expect. Hell, if they can install perl, why not Gforth, you know? 10:22:00 hmm, like a web host? 10:22:21 not really, but ok 10:23:56 docl: remember - we are either expecting to parallel, overload or replace. Only the second would be economical 10:24:24 oh, or "add" 10:25:47 adding new programs is ok, but "Overloading" with newer programs to filter and transmogrify is prolly cheaper all over. 10:26:03 yeah that's a good way 10:26:17 anyway, let me meander off for today and I'll think it over. 10:26:28 stay well and think it over... 10:26:32 --- quit: PoppaVic ("Pulls the pin...") 10:26:34 the rf wiki uses php to call the rf app, which does the wiki work 10:40:06 --- join: swalters (n=swalters@2416457hfc118.tampabay.res.rr.com) joined #forth 13:20:02 --- part: [aardvark] left #forth 13:58:24 --- join: I440r_ (n=foo@216-177-162-213.block0.gvtc.com) joined #forth 14:00:42 How goes the battle, I440r? 14:01:16 creating a subversion reposatory for the arm forth and am at the point where i test and debug it 14:02:00 need to figure out how to upload it to the xport-ii (like how to i tell it what address to store it at) etc 14:02:16 Progress. 14:02:27 slowly :) 14:02:51 Still. 14:12:12 alot more progress than me 14:16:33 I440r, what's the xport-ii? Can't dig anything up on it here. 14:18:16 ah, think I found it: "The Xport plugs into the cartridge slot of the Game Boy Advance" 14:22:53 --- quit: I440r_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 14:27:50 --- join: I440r_ (n=foo@216-177-162-213.block0.gvtc.com) joined #forth 14:36:34 lol i got disconnected 14:36:42 hey I440r 14:36:47 hi 15:23:10 what's up? 15:23:24 i haven't done any coding for a few days, been doing topology instead 15:36:38 topology ? 15:36:47 im trying to get my forth to run on the gba :) 15:36:51 xport-ii 15:47:39 the gba is too limited, IMO 15:51:07 this is the ds actually 15:51:50 if its not 500mhz with 128mb of ram or more, i'm not interested :P 15:52:08 :) 17:39:20 * ayrnieu has a dual 300Mhz with 1G of ram. *dance* 17:39:53 I'll grant that it does not quite fit the gba form factor... 18:06:01 --- join: sproingie (i=foobar@64-121-15-14.c3-0.sfrn-ubr8.sfrn.ca.cable.rcn.com) joined #forth 19:11:09 --- quit: ayrnieu ("system") 19:17:29 --- join: I440r__ 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