00:00:00 --- log: started forth/05.08.03
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06:26:33 <PoppaVic> G'day
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09:29:13 <PoppaVic> lo, herk
09:29:37 <PoppaVic> I just had a serious chuckle to offset two days of bullshit ;-)
09:34:55 <JasonWoof> hi PoppaVic 
09:35:39 <PoppaVic> I spent two goddamned dubbing shit that was not at fault *sigh*
09:35:49 <PoppaVic> deBugging, too
09:37:13 <PoppaVic> then, I got the #asm boys interested - by asking questions - and then got dumped the moment I pointed out that their stupid assemblers were non-portable and so was the syntax/semantics
09:39:32 <PoppaVic> As expected, not one person admits to "seeing a problem", let alone why an assembler PROGRAM should be portable, and rely on datafiles for syntax and output.
09:40:00 <PoppaVic> I find it all amusing, after two days of skull-smashing on cinderblock
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09:40:48 <PoppaVic> to be fair, (of course), I have to admit that most can't understand what an API is, let alone an ABI
09:41:35 <PoppaVic> ..in fact, I have trouble explaining about headers/prototypes to folks that lost.
09:43:14 <PoppaVic> Then too, they usually can't really differentiate between interpreter, compiler and assembler realy clearly.
09:43:18 <PoppaVic> "really"
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09:43:48 <PoppaVic> Anyway, 2 days of hell and a new day of "my shit works and why are you obtuse?" ;-)
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09:59:34 <JasonWoof> wow, I can really focus on forth
09:59:43 <JasonWoof> I got bored on hold, and started coding
10:00:08 <JasonWoof> quite a while later (20 minutes) I notice that I have the headset on, and remember that I was on hold
10:00:18 <JasonWoof> no reccolection of being disconnected
10:00:26 <PoppaVic> hehe
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10:51:42 <virl> how much do you use 2^16 bits as a size of variables?
10:52:22 <JasonWoof> huh?
10:52:56 <virl> I think thats the most used data size of a variables, or I'm wrong ;-)
10:53:13 <arke> hehe
10:53:19 <arke> 65536 bits? :P
10:53:37 <JasonWoof> I thought variables were usually 32 bits
10:53:49 <arke> depends on the architecture
10:53:51 <virl> no, 2 bytes for each variable.
10:54:02 <arke> 4 bits, 8 bits, 16 bits, 21 bits, 31 bits, 32 bits...
10:54:16 <JasonWoof> 65536 is a lot of bits
10:54:35 <virl> I meant 2 bytes
10:54:47 <JasonWoof> I'm on a 32 bit machine with loads of ram and disk space, so I use 32 bits for variables
10:56:32 <virl> yeah, you do. but I'm a C coder and I expect at least 2 bytes for the datatype int and so I don't use more than it's value range(0-65535)
10:58:50 <JasonWoof> I see
10:58:57 <JasonWoof> I assume int is 32
10:59:33 <JasonWoof> if there's any doubt I use int32_t or whatever from <stdint.h>
11:00:56 <virl> why I'm asking this? because I'm working on a vm which is very simple, basically it's a forth system. and I need a default datasize(1 byte, 2 bytes, 4 bytes) for it's cell size, I wan't something which can be used on a 8bit,16bit,32bit or 64bit+ cpu, so what is the best tradeoff?
11:01:26 <JasonWoof> heh
11:01:41 <JasonWoof> I think you need to be able to hold a memory address in a cell
11:02:09 <virl> I had ideas about a sliding cell, but that would be too slow.
11:02:38 <JasonWoof> if you use more than 64K of memory, you should really have 32bit cell
11:02:52 <JasonWoof> if you're running on a 16-bit cpu, you should use 16-bit cells
11:03:06 <JasonWoof> and I don't know what to do with 8 bit
11:05:01 <virl> creating something which isn't bend to hardware is hard.
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12:31:15 <arke> anybody ever watched office space?
12:40:13 <Quartus> Yes.
12:40:37 <arke> anybody agree it kicks ass? :)
12:40:43 <arke> "I believe you have my stapler?"
12:41:02 <Quartus> Got a few laughs out of it.
12:42:11 <arke> )
12:42:13 <arke> :)
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15:13:51 <JasonWoof> Office Space is one of my favorites
15:15:51 <JasonWoof> my favorite part is his interview with the bobs
15:47:03 <jdrake> Is retro forth or isforth recursive (tail call optimizing)
15:55:55 <JasonWoof> I think retroforth is, but not isforth
15:56:05 <JasonWoof> I440r doesn't like recursion
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16:23:57 <jdrake> i was reading an article (interview) regarding colour forth and it indicated that recursion was the only form of looping in it, is that correct?
16:27:56 <arke> yup
16:28:01 <arke> :)
16:28:24 <arke> and truthfully, what else do you need? :)
16:28:34 <arke> for/next is nice but thats about it imho
16:30:51 <jdrake> considering that you can get away with it in functional languages... :p
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16:34:37 <JasonWoof> yeah, in herkforth I have recursion and for/next
16:35:06 <JasonWoof> I appreciate the simplicity of being able to say "do this 8 times"
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16:59:38 <I440r> argh recursion is horrible
17:00:15 <I440r> im liking colorforth less and less the more i hear about it :P
17:01:07 <I440r> this means that you cant do a look in the middle of a definition
17:01:26 <I440r> : blah ..... start-loop ......... ene-loop .... ;
17:01:39 <I440r> you cant recurse into the middle of the definition
17:04:30 <jdrake> isn't the theory there that you should be able to simplify the word even more?
17:04:54 <tathi> why can't you recurse into the middle?
17:05:01 <tathi> just put a red word there so you can branch back to it?
17:05:14 <I440r> thats not recursion
17:05:17 <tathi> err...that last wasn't a question.
17:05:25 <tathi> well, whatever.  recurse back to it.
17:05:37 <tathi> colorforth does tail-call elimination IIRC.
17:07:24 <tathi> and you could certainly add loops to colorforth easily enough
17:08:59 <I440r> wtf does "confusion in formal parameters
17:09:02 <I440r> mean in gas
17:09:09 <I440r> thats sooooo fucking descriptive!!!!!!!!!!!!
17:09:26 <tathi> yup.  what a great program! :P
17:11:06 <tathi> ok, you want to hear what I think about it?
17:12:16 <tathi> oh, never mind, I don't actually know what that means.
17:12:35 <I440r> :)
17:12:56 <I440r> your using gas for the PPC version of isforth
17:12:59 <tathi> I thought it meant you had a macro call where you tried to mix just listing the parameters in order
17:13:03 <tathi> with naming some of them.
17:13:17 <tathi> yeah, well, I don't stretch gas very far, so I don't get screwy errors much.
17:13:29 <tathi> but it looks like it has a different error message for that.
17:13:59 <I440r> how do you get gas to assemble the link back to the previous word
17:14:12 <tathi> in a very kludgy manner
17:14:14 <I440r> im having to pass the label of teh previous word as a parameter to the header macro
17:14:15 <tathi> :)
17:14:20 <I440r> is that what you did ?
17:14:31 <I440r> code "0=", zequals, not
17:14:38 <I440r> its saying confusion in formal parameters on that
17:14:50 <I440r> ive tried renaming "not" to "_not"
17:15:11 <I440r> not is the previous word
17:15:15 <tathi> aha.
17:15:27 <tathi> looks like it means it thinks that you're trying to pass a named argument to a macro.
17:15:32 <tathi> but something isn't right.
17:15:47 <I440r> what do you mean by a named arg
17:16:02 <tathi> ok, when you define a macro in gas, you have to name the parameters.
17:16:10 <tathi> right?
17:16:18 <I440r> code "not", not, xor
17:16:24 <I440r> i dont gbet that same error on that definition
17:16:32 <I440r> or any of th4e 50 or so previous definitions
17:16:37 <tathi> yeah, it's the 0= string.
17:16:45 <I440r> its a fucking string!
17:16:48 <tathi> the macro parser is terrible.
17:16:57 <I440r> what the fuck is it doing interpreting a fucking string
17:16:58 <tathi> reads like it was written by a 5 year old
17:16:58 <I440r> ok
17:17:18 <tathi> is this in your ARM version?
17:17:21 <I440r> yes
17:17:31 <I440r> how do i pass "0=" then
17:17:32 <tathi> you have it in your svn somewhere?
17:17:37 <I440r> no
17:17:45 <I440r> im not going to version this none
17:18:01 <I440r> soon as this is finished i have a forth arm assembler that ill use to make IT metacompile itself
17:18:07 <I440r> and that version will be versioned
17:18:13 <Quartus> It's good to version your versions.
17:18:25 <I440r> .macro header nam, lab, lnk
17:18:25 <I440r>  .data
17:18:25 <I440r>  .word h_\lnk               @ link back to previous header
17:18:25 <I440r> h_\lab:
17:18:25 <I440r>  length \nam                @ compute lfa length
17:18:25 <I440r>  .byte len | imm            @ compile length byte with smudge bit
17:18:27 <I440r>  .ascii "\nam"
17:18:29 <I440r>  imm = 0                    @ reset immediate flag
17:18:31 <I440r>  .word \lab
17:18:33 <I440r>  .text
17:18:35 <I440r> .endm
17:18:37 <I440r> heh i use subverion... its tood to subversion your versions :)
17:18:54 <tathi> yah, you should use it like an undo thingy.
17:19:04 <I440r> ?
17:19:28 <tathi> keep everything in version control even if it's just private.
17:19:45 <tathi> then you can happily delete stuff, and still be able to get it back if you decide you wanted it after all.
17:19:50 <I440r> im gona version control this. once i start making it metacompile itself
17:20:09 <I440r> right now all i care about is "0="
17:20:10 <I440r> lol
17:20:12 <I440r> how do i pass that
17:20:13 <tathi> I'm just saying I'd have it in version control now.
17:20:18 <tathi> but...I bet it's the call to length.
17:20:26 <tathi> it thinks you're trying to pass it a parameter by name.
17:20:30 <I440r> oh i gotta quote it!
17:20:33 <I440r> argh ok i know the fix
17:20:37 <tathi> yah, probably.
17:20:41 <I440r> why didnt it happen on any other call ?
17:20:51 <I440r> becuse other calls didnt start with a digit
17:20:51 <tathi> do you have any other word that is "blah=" ?
17:20:52 <Quartus> So the macro processing is still broken, eh?
17:20:53 <I440r> duh
17:21:02 <Quartus> What a shame there isn't some ALTERNATIVE. :)
17:21:11 <tathi> yeah, I keep meaning to write one :)
17:21:14 <I440r> no the macro to calculate string length has to have one line added
17:21:19 <I440r> and i need to qoute the string in the call to the macro
17:21:27 <tathi> (keep getting sidetracked by more interesting stuff though)
17:21:34 <tathi> I440r: can I see the old length macro?
17:21:37 <Quartus> All I'm hearing is that you can't make it work.
17:21:41 <Quartus> :)
17:22:08 <tathi> Quartus: yeah, it has a completely separate parser for macro arguments.
17:22:23 <tathi> so it doesn't always work the same way as everything else
17:22:28 <Quartus> I've been trying to convince him to use a real macro processor.
17:22:28 <tathi> and sometimes it's just horribly broken.
17:22:29 <Quartus> Like m4.
17:22:34 <tathi> lol
17:23:03 <I440r> nope this didnt fix it
17:23:17 <tathi> hmm...I never liked m4.
17:23:24 <Quartus> Funny, it speaks well of you.
17:23:55 <tathi> maybe I didn't try hard enough, but it seemed tricky.
17:23:59 <Quartus> But it works.
17:24:13 <tathi> yeah.
17:24:22 <Quartus> Works=good.
17:24:50 <I440r> no i disagree (im not saying m4 is bad)
17:25:00 <I440r> but just because something works doesnt make it good
17:25:03 <I440r> gas works
17:25:08 <I440r> gas is definatly NOT GOOD
17:25:12 <tathi> I can just never figure out how many levels of quoting to use.
17:25:20 <tathi> It always comes down to just trying things until it works.
17:26:13 <tathi> I440r: paste the old length macro for me?
17:26:40 <I440r> .macro length nam
17:26:40 <I440r>   len = 0                   @ init length
17:26:40 <I440r>   .irpc c, "\nam"           @ for each char of name
17:26:40 <I440r>     len = len + 1           @ increment l
17:26:40 <I440r>   .endr
17:26:41 <I440r> @  len = len - 2 
17:26:43 <I440r> .endm
17:26:46 <I440r> just unquote the \nam part
17:27:09 <tathi> and you quoted it in the call, and it still didn't work?
17:27:10 <I440r> the commentd out line is to not count teh quotes but it doesnt anyway it seems
17:27:14 <I440r> yup
17:27:22 <I440r> oh fuck
17:27:27 <I440r> header is a sub macro
17:27:32 <I440r> called by the code and colon macros
17:27:38 <I440r> i bet THEY dont quote it
17:28:11 <I440r> yup
17:28:13 <I440r> that was it
17:28:29 <tathi> good.
17:28:48 <tathi> have you had problems with ; in strings?
17:29:01 <I440r> fucking stupid macro processor stripping off the quotes
17:29:08 <tathi> yup. :)
17:29:08 <I440r> if i do ill just backslash them
17:29:20 <tathi> just curious.
17:29:32 <I440r> im a bit worried about "abort\""
17:29:40 <I440r> does the macro processor also strip off teh backslash ?
17:29:52 <tathi> I don't remember.
17:29:57 <tathi> I don't think so.
17:30:02 <I440r> ok
17:30:04 <I440r> hope not
17:30:05 <tathi> it worked ok in isforth ppc
17:30:09 <I440r> ok 
17:30:18 <tathi> but you gotta use .ascii for backslashes.
17:30:28 <tathi> .byte doesn't work.
17:30:30 <I440r> i used .ascii
17:30:36 <I440r> i lucked out lol
17:30:40 <tathi> :)
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18:18:53 <I440r> lol ok the macro processor does not strip teh escape char from strings
18:19:05 <I440r> so the length macro counts the \ as part of the string lol
18:19:10 <I440r> i have to make it not do so :P
18:19:18 <I440r> which is easy
18:19:21 <I440r> i think
18:21:28 <tathi> .ifne c,'\'
18:21:33 <tathi>   len = len + 1
18:21:33 <tathi> ?
18:21:50 <I440r> yup
18:21:59 <I440r> thats what i was thunkin :)
18:22:47 <tathi> hrm...looks like it only takes one expression
18:23:05 <tathi> .if c != '\\'  ; or something
18:23:26 <tathi> err <> even
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18:27:19 <I440r> ok thats actually wrong too but it wont cause any problems
18:27:25 <I440r> because \ isnt defined in teh kernel :)
18:27:31 <I440r> lol
18:28:48 <I440r> .ifc c, '\'
18:28:50 <I440r> i think
18:30:12 <I440r> erm ifnc i mean
18:32:32 <I440r> nope
18:32:43 <I440r> cant fucking evaluate the fucking c variable
18:32:44 <I440r> fuck
18:32:55 <I440r> you CANOOT test if c is equal to something
18:33:00 <I440r> this is so fucking fucked up\
18:33:02 <I440r> FUCK
18:33:03 <I440r> FUCK
18:33:03 <I440r> FUCK
18:35:52 <I440r> how the FUCK do i do this
18:37:23 <Quartus> Dude.
18:37:36 <I440r> fucking gas is fucking with me again
18:37:39 <I440r> its always fucking with me
18:37:49 <I440r> the people who wrote gas should be fucking castrateed
18:38:50 <I440r> you cant equate a fucking value of a variable c in a macro
18:39:02 <I440r> you cannot fucing say "if c is this... do this"
18:39:09 <I440r> becayse you testing if "c" is this
18:39:10 <Quartus> It's a cheezy little assembler macro language.
18:39:10 <I440r> fuck
18:39:18 <I440r> its not
18:39:19 <I440r> its not
18:39:21 <I440r> erm
18:39:24 <I440r> its not a fucking assembler
18:39:25 <I440r> at all
18:39:36 <I440r> its a "fuck with mark manning"
18:39:38 <Quartus> Well, it assembles. So I'd have to disagree with you there.
18:39:39 <I440r> thats all it fucking is
18:40:37 <I440r> this is sooooo FUYCKING RETARDED
18:40:40 <I440r> this is sooooo FUYCKING RETARDED
18:40:40 <I440r> this is sooooo FUYCKING RETARDED
18:40:40 <I440r> this is sooooo FUYCKING RETARDED
18:40:40 <I440r> this is sooooo FUYCKING RETARDED
18:40:40 <I440r> this is sooooo FUYCKING RETARDED
18:40:40 <I440r> this is sooooo FUYCKING RETARDED
18:40:42 <I440r> this is sooooo FUYCKING RETARDED
18:40:44 <I440r> this is sooooo FUYCKING RETARDED
18:40:46 <I440r> this is sooooo FUYCKING RETARDED
18:40:48 <I440r> this is sooooo FUYCKING RETARDED
18:40:50 <I440r> this is sooooo FUYCKING RETARDED
18:40:52 <I440r> this is sooooo FUYCKING RETARDED
18:40:54 <I440r> this is sooooo FUYCKING RETARDED
18:40:56 <I440r> this is sooooo FUYCKING RETARDED
18:41:00 <I440r> fuck
18:41:11 <Quartus> You are probably in the wrong line of work, guy.
18:41:16 <I440r> the only fucking way im going to F U C K I N G do this
18:41:21 <I440r> is to pass the fucking string length by had
18:41:22 <I440r> fuck
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20:28:10 <JasonWoof> I think there are some logs that I have that are not up
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20:28:37 <JasonWoof> if herklog was here I have them
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