00:00:00 --- log: started forth/05.08.02 00:30:15 --- join: swalters (~swalters@2416457hfc118.tampabay.res.rr.com) joined #forth 00:30:29 --- quit: swalters (Remote closed the connection) 00:30:37 --- join: swalters (~swalters@2416457hfc118.tampabay.res.rr.com) joined #forth 00:30:38 --- quit: swalters (Remote closed the connection) 00:31:02 --- join: swalters (~swalters@2416457hfc118.tampabay.res.rr.com) joined #forth 00:31:08 --- quit: swalters (Remote closed the connection) 00:42:58 --- join: swalters (~swalters@2416457hfc118.tampabay.res.rr.com) joined #forth 00:43:03 --- quit: swalters (Remote closed the connection) 00:56:11 --- join: arke_ (~chris@p54A7CF64.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 01:11:02 --- join: swalters (~swalters@2416457hfc118.tampabay.res.rr.com) joined #forth 01:14:29 --- quit: arke (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 01:26:54 --- join: true-grue (~true-grue@office.medlux.ru) joined #forth 01:50:41 --- quit: true-grue () 02:33:45 --- join: true-grue (~true-grue@office.medlux.ru) joined #forth 02:39:07 --- quit: I440r (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 02:41:37 --- quit: swalters ("User disconnected") 02:53:45 --- nick: arke_ -> arke 03:14:13 --- quit: true-grue () 03:30:30 --- join: swalters (~swalters@2416457hfc118.tampabay.res.rr.com) joined #forth 03:30:39 --- quit: swalters (Remote closed the connection) 05:40:31 --- nick: Raystm2 -> nanstm 05:40:53 --- join: PoppaVic (~pete@0-1pool74-232.nas24.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 05:41:14 Hi 06:32:50 Hi. 06:35:45 --- quit: arke (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 06:36:35 --- join: arke (~chris@p54A7CF64.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 06:37:41 lo 06:40:26 What's up? 06:41:14 nada, tinkering the guess.c program *sigh* Mechanical efforts 06:41:28 What is guess.c? 06:41:56 I'm trying to get the hell away from autoshit, and write nice, portable alternatives in C 06:46:47 --- join: YoyoFreeBSD (yoyofreema@222.90.38.122) joined #forth 06:51:30 --- part: YoyoFreeBSD left #forth 06:53:36 --- join: YoyoFreeBSD (yoyofreema@222.90.38.122) joined #forth 07:14:17 --- join: sproingie (foobar@64-121-15-14.c3-0.sfrn-ubr8.sfrn.ca.cable.rcn.com) joined #forth 07:16:41 --- nick: nanstm -> tiff 07:19:27 --- part: YoyoFreeBSD left #forth 07:27:47 --- nick: tiff -> nanstm 07:45:41 --- join: JasonWoof (~jason@c-65-96-120-126.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) joined #forth 07:45:42 --- mode: ChanServ set +o JasonWoof 07:46:40 lo, herk 07:47:43 'morning 08:18:37 --- quit: PoppaVic ("Pulls the pin...") 08:21:16 --- join: qFox (~C00K13S@92pc222.sshunet.nl) joined #forth 08:46:46 --- join: PoppaVic (~pete@0-1pool46-83.nas30.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 09:01:27 --- join: ayrnieu (~julian@ip70-187-26-105.om.om.cox.net) joined #forth 09:26:43 --- quit: sproingie (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 09:54:02 --- join: virl (~hmpf@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at) joined #forth 10:13:04 --- quit: Quartus (Remote closed the connection) 11:01:13 --- join: Rockford (~trailer@ansuz.pair.com) joined #forth 11:04:49 --- quit: PoppaVic ("Pulls the pin...") 11:56:39 --- join: I440r (~foo@rrcs-24-242-160-169.sw.biz.rr.com) joined #forth 12:12:44 --- part: Rockford left #forth 12:12:56 --- join: Quartus (~trailer@ansuz.pair.com) joined #forth 12:27:40 --- quit: I440r (No route to host) 13:19:59 --- join: I440r (~foo@rrcs-24-242-160-169.sw.biz.rr.com) joined #forth 14:58:31 --- join: crc (crc@pool-70-110-154-75.phil.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 15:25:28 --- quit: ayrnieu ("leaving") 15:51:40 --- join: samc (~sam@203-114-131-73.inspire.net.nz) joined #forth 16:06:56 --- quit: qFox ("this quit is sponsored by somebody!") 16:15:35 --- nick: nanstm -> Raystm2 17:17:31 --- join: swalters (~swalters@2416457hfc118.tampabay.res.rr.com) joined #forth 18:23:20 --- join: Jim7J1AJH (~jim@usen-221x115x224x2.ap-US01.usen.ad.jp) joined #forth 18:30:49 --- join: kunphuzil (~Jason@ip-69-10-101-42.cableaz.net) joined #forth 18:38:52 It's quiet out there. 18:39:05 Too quiet... 18:39:42 yup :) 18:39:57 So Quartus Forth is up to version 2.0 now. 18:40:47 Tough room. :) 18:40:57 cool 18:44:24 Quartus: send me a /msg with details and I'll write a dotquote article 18:45:10 There already is one, I believe. http://dotquote.org/?p=5 18:47:18 :) 19:25:38 --- join: jdrake (jdrake@CPE0080c6ead6a9-CM0012254195d6.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 19:27:29 --- join: snoopy_16 (snoopy_161@dsl-084-058-139-247.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 19:35:18 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 19:35:18 --- quit: jdrake (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 19:35:25 --- nick: snoopy_16 -> Snoopy42 19:42:18 --- quit: samc () 20:18:07 --- join: sproingie (foobar@64-121-15-14.c3-0.sfrn-ubr8.sfrn.ca.cable.rcn.com) joined #forth 21:01:18 --- join: jdrake (jdrake@CPE0080c6ead6a9-CM0012254195d6.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 21:02:39 in the town, from whence I was born, there was a man who programmed forth... 21:03:23 cool 21:04:59 What would be the easiest forth to learn from on an x86 machine, but one that would allow one to program an operating system if one desired? 21:06:52 what OS? 21:07:24 I am on windows currently, but I also switch to linux here and there 21:08:40 I don't know what's easiest to learn 21:08:59 seems gforth works on most platforms 21:09:06 how about this - is there one that is easiest to work with once you know it 21:09:18 gforth doesn't save anything you have done with it does it? 21:09:18 not terribly well documented, but it is ANSI, so the books about forth tend to work 21:09:34 no 21:09:55 well, actually, kc5tja wrote a block editor for it 21:10:34 usually the really cool forths are platform dependant 21:11:05 or, at least architecture dependant 21:11:06 is kc5tja still working on that machine project? 21:11:27 eg mine runs under ppc linux, Mac os, and some versions can run as an OS right off the BIOS 21:11:33 yeah 21:11:49 the gforth block editor is called Vibe 21:13:01 status report: Vibe works well, but is not being maintained 21:13:13 what I would like is something like OF 21:13:29 a system that can be built on, even if I have to do part ofit 21:13:46 retroforth has similar support on x86: linux, windows, bootable, and some support for other x86 unixes iirc 21:14:32 I might go cross-architecture with my forth someday 21:14:54 eg since Apple won't be making ppcs much longer 21:15:43 true 21:16:13 I don't want to learn x86 though 21:17:13 i learned x86 about 12 years ago 21:17:14 but, if I build it to be somewhat cpu independant, someone else can do the x86 stuff 21:17:41 i have been on x86 all my life until 2002 when I bought an ibook, and later an emac. Now I am running x86-64 21:18:21 I've never had windows in the house 21:18:55 windows is 'ok', but I do prefer mac. But I really would like to try riscos 21:18:55 I've bought two 1U x86 server boxes 21:19:11 but asside from that all the computers in my life have been apples 21:20:19 --- part: kunphuzil left #forth 21:21:23 --- join: OrngeTide (~orange@rm-f.net) joined #forth 21:21:40 if you want a laugh: http://productsdb.riscos.com/admin/ros_test.htm 21:27:48 I'm not really verry enthralled 21:28:15 ok, its a subjective thing 21:30:27 do you know of any operating system projects written in forth for x86? 21:31:03 retroforth 21:31:12 colorforth 21:31:26 isforth 21:31:31 so they classify as operating systems? 21:31:36 isforth is the operating system 21:31:39 linux is the bios :) 21:32:10 humph 21:32:28 retroforth can run as an OS, or under linux, windows or (iirc) bsd 21:32:38 colorforth only as an OS 21:32:48 isfortgh runs on all those too 21:32:52 isforth runs in dos 21:32:53 nice stuff :-) 21:32:55 linux x86 21:32:57 linux ppc 21:32:58 fbsd 21:32:59 I440r, isn't isforth yours? 21:33:04 yes 21:33:20 tho i never published the dos verson hehe 21:33:35 can you be somewhat impartial when being asked - what is better? 21:33:40 or how they compare 21:33:51 Pretty broad question. 21:33:59 It is 21:34:07 For precisely what purpose? 21:34:34 and iw as gona cop out and say "only YOU can decide that" heh 21:34:59 does the x86 download include the bootable version? 21:35:12 I am looking at learning forth in my spare time, and should choose the right one off the getgo 21:36:07 I suggest you have the wrong end of the stick. Learn Forth with any accessible and decent implementation. Then you'll be better armed to evaluate other systems for whatever purpose you come up with at that point. 21:36:13 jdrake there is NO right one 21:36:18 except isforth :) 21:36:20 nuff sed! 21:36:26 I reccomend you find a good forth tutorial (like Starting Forth) and play along in gforth 21:36:48 isforth and retro are both equally accessible assuming i440r is not fibbing :p 21:37:06 isforth.clss.net 21:37:09 Is Starting Forth something that will actually get me making something? 21:37:12 then either write your own, or start playing with isforth and/or retroforth 21:37:24 JasonWoof's advice is good. 21:37:35 i don't do well on tutorials that just run through the paces without being constructive 21:37:45 I forget 21:38:03 All any text will do is introduce you to the language. What you do with it, creatively speaking, is entirely up to you. 21:38:24 I suggest reading Thinking Forth; it's available free. 21:38:43 Ok, that is all anyone can ask for at this point I guess. 21:39:18 yeah, it's hard to be contstructive when you don't know the language 21:39:23 so is starting forth i believe... i thinksomeone published that onthe web too 21:39:31 but im not sure of the legalities of them doing so 21:39:36 http://thinking-forth.sourceforge.net/ 21:39:43 its still in print in russia i believe 21:39:45 thinking forth is definitely legal 21:39:49 starting forth I'm not sure 21:40:26 Starting Forth is an antique that teaches an extinct implementation of Forth. 21:40:42 It was a very good book for its time, but not an ideal introductory text any longer. 21:40:48 ya 21:40:57 legal or not... here it is: http://home.iae.nl/users/mhx/sf.html 21:41:08 oh 21:41:22 is thinking forth a good book to start with? or does it assume existng forth knowledge? 21:41:49 Thinking Forth is a great book on programming in general. It's not a tutorial, more of a philosophical work. 21:42:16 Any conceptual stumbling blocks a novice encounters could be dealt with by, say, coming here and asking. :) 21:42:27 heh 21:43:09 yeah 21:43:41 I'm all for the read for 10 minutes to find the very basics, then fiddling with it and asking a million questions here 21:43:44 I'm happy to answer them 21:44:02 Helps a lot to have something in mind that you want to accomplish. 21:44:28 jdrake: have you done a lot of programming in other languages? 21:45:55 jdrake, are you in Ontario? 21:46:38 Quartus, yes, London 21:46:44 I think it's fun and educational to figure out how to print the fibinocci sequence, primes etc 21:46:45 Toronto, here. 21:47:04 then maybe something a bit more complex like Mastermind 21:47:12 I used to work a Roman-number conversion routine (to and from) as a first project. 21:47:25 or perhaps you have something useful in mind :) 21:47:44 that's a fun one :) I think I saw that in one of leo brodies books 21:47:49 haven't tried 21:47:49 JasonWoof, yes. C, C++, Io. At one point: Python, x86 asm, Python, Perl, Javascript, GW-BASIC, VB3,4,5,6,... 21:48:16 jdrake: cool :) that helps 21:48:33 Those are all similar languages. Forth is a bit of a left-turn in some ways. Thinking Forth should be quite interesting for you to read. 21:48:56 while forth is often at least as different from other languages as you think it could be, there are a lot of general programming skills that carry over 21:49:07 That's certainly true. 21:49:08 people who have never programmed before take longer to get any good at forth 21:49:56 Becoming a good Forth programmer will make you a better programmer in *any* language. 21:49:59 i would think it would be easier for a non-programmer who has not been entrenched in the paradigm of mainstream languages 21:50:25 Oh I forgot to mention Haskell, Ocaml, and SML 21:50:42 jdrake, it's possible that's true. I suspect it varies by individual. Entrenchment is always hard to defeat. 21:50:47 it would be begtter for a pure asm coder who hasnt been poisoned with "mainstream" pardigms 21:51:04 but even if your an object obfuscated drag and drop cut and paste windows gui coder 21:51:12 learning forth will make you a better codedr 21:51:13 coder 21:54:25 but it dont make me a better guitarist :/ 21:54:46 its like these bar chords arent possible without super human strength 21:54:47 grr 21:55:13 oh I love apt-file 22:06:12 starting forth i didn't much like. thinking forth is definitely different 22:06:49 forth makes me better at functional programming actually 22:07:10 using the stack is similar to eta reduction 22:13:19 apparently Starting Forth is written by the same author as thinking forth 22:13:25 yep 22:14:01 starting forth just isn't as good 22:14:31 actually it starts all right, but starts to fall apart halfway through 22:15:00 he doesn't explain immediates or the compiler mode very well, and the explanation of create..does> is kind of bizarre 22:15:19 and before any of that he goes into lots of implementation-specific stuff 22:16:35 * sproingie wants to get back into haskell and write some real apps with it 22:17:04 unfortunately, doing stateful stuff with it is still pretty painful. there's a bunch of ways to do it, none of them are all that enjoyable 22:17:59 pass the world around :p 22:18:28 well you can wrap the world in a monad and pass it around implicitly 22:18:32 that's easy enough 22:18:44 the problem is when you want several bits of state 22:19:18 it's really hard to do it anywhere but the one IO monad, all global 22:39:16 --- quit: virl (Remote closed the connection) 23:37:13 yeah, paradigms take a while to go away :) 23:37:31 I'm still discovering changes in my coding style as a result of working with forth 23:38:24 coding practices, like trying not to make any definitions longer than this sentence. 23:38:41 Shorter than this one if possible 23:39:37 I agree that probably the person who would pick up forth the quickest and best would probably be an asm programmer 23:39:54 I think forth makes a great first language 23:40:00 it's just that learning to program takes a while 23:40:28 there's a lot of programming skills that don't have much of anything to do with languages 23:40:38 how to break down complex things into little programmable bits 23:42:11 --- quit: sproingie ("Konversation terminated!") 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/05.08.02