00:00:00 --- log: started forth/05.08.01 00:55:27 --- join: arke_ (~chris@p54A7BE01.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 00:58:30 --- quit: arke (Nick collision from services.) 00:58:38 --- nick: arke_ -> arke 01:13:15 --- quit: I440r (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 02:44:45 --- join: LOOP-HOG (~chatzilla@sub22-119.member.dsl-only.net) joined #forth 03:02:48 --- quit: madgarden (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 03:36:56 --- join: crc (crc@pool-70-110-165-157.phil.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 03:38:22 hi 03:39:43 hi 03:50:10 --- join: true-grue (~true-grue@office.medlux.ru) joined #forth 03:50:18 hi 03:50:22 hi 03:50:51 is TRUE-GRUE a Forth word? 03:51:37 : TRUE-GRUE ." From Zork game ;-)" ; 03:51:45 oh yeah 03:52:10 you are from russia? 03:52:31 LOOP-HOG, true! Moscow 03:52:59 I wish we had Buran with flyback boosters, instead of space shuttle 03:53:38 I'm not convinved that the shuttle is safe 03:53:49 there was some foam that few off of the shuttle 03:54:03 maybe Kliper will be a good vehicle 03:54:23 I really am rooting for Space Ship 2, Virgin Galactic, et al 03:54:30 anyway 03:54:39 how good is your english? 03:54:43 LOOP-HOG, Yes, we had "Buran". But now "Buran" is sold. As museum item. In China, i think 03:54:53 rats 03:55:08 Roton Rocket only got the prototype stage 03:55:22 LOOP-HOG, My English.. my Forh is much more better :) 03:55:29 Forth 03:55:38 its ok, my Esperanto is probably much worse 03:56:13 I can just get through ^Gangalo 03:56:56 LOOP-HOG, Btw. What do you think about Forth implementations on C? 03:57:28 Maybe easy to impliment, ads a scripting language to C, but not as fast as Assembly 03:57:34 --- quit: crc (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)) 03:57:44 I probably would choose to use an Assembly Forth 03:57:52 Metacompiles 03:57:54 Metacompiled 04:00:21 LOOP-HOG, But if you have AI task or music performing task(as me)? .. I want to see a portable solution. Ficl is just to complex for me. 04:01:03 So do you use a C baised Forth? 04:02:08 LOOP-HOG, Almost. I wrote my own stack language.. Simpler than Forth, in 18kb of source code 04:02:21 oh 04:02:27 how is it simpler than Forth? 04:02:35 you wrote it in C? 04:03:02 LOOP-HOG, Yes. In C. 04:04:19 true-grue, Want to look? A can send you win32 executable(60kb) and some examples 04:04:56 I would like to see a source screen example 04:37:37 --- quit: LOOP-HOG ("ChatZilla 0.9.61 [Mozilla rv:1.7.1/20040707]") 04:53:10 hi :) 04:58:00 arke, hi! 04:58:43 Whats up? Don' t think I've seen you here before... 04:59:55 arke, yes, i was here only one or two times before 05:00:13 I see. :) 05:01:56 --- join: PoppaVic (~pete@0-2pool198-60.nas30.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 05:02:22 G'day 05:21:06 --- quit: true-grue () 06:02:07 --- join: manas (~manas@220.225.32.98) joined #forth 06:02:18 --- part: manas left #forth 06:02:58 --- join: manas (~manas@220.225.32.98) joined #forth 06:03:17 why is do unsupported in rf8? 06:04:00 --- part: manas left #forth 06:04:13 --- quit: saon (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 06:47:43 --- join: JasonWoof (~jason@Herkamire.student.supporter.pdpc) joined #forth 06:47:43 --- mode: ChanServ set +o JasonWoof 06:48:24 lo, jas 06:48:33 hello 06:59:31 --- join: sproingie (foobar@64-121-15-14.c3-0.sfrn-ubr8.sfrn.ca.cable.rcn.com) joined #forth 07:12:55 --- join: tathi (~josh@tathi.bronze.supporter.pdpc) joined #forth 07:13:49 hi tathi 07:14:17 hi 07:21:02 --- join: madgarden 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joined #forth 19:30:15 Hi all. 19:31:00 hi quartus 19:31:59 What's new? 19:32:42 tab completion in my forth environment 19:32:50 weekly soccer with friends 19:33:14 Both good. :) 19:33:50 I've thought about command completion in Quartus Forth, but haven't implemented it yet. 19:33:52 yeah :) 19:34:32 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 19:34:34 I had always planned on having it 19:34:37 --- nick: snoopy_16 -> Snoopy42 19:34:43 and I have a persistand dictionary with the names in it... 19:35:07 How do you handle it? Brute force over the current search order? 19:35:30 brute force 19:35:39 I don't have vocabularies or anything, so I just search the whole dict 19:36:12 It's a bit more complex with wordlist support. 19:39:19 yeah 19:39:29 and with a slower cpu 19:39:44 speaking of which, I should see if my stuff slows down the editor when running under qemu 19:41:24 nooo problem 19:46:43 Well, brute-forcing the search isn't a problem, but with wordlists it's necessary to confirm that any given match is in the current search order. 19:47:37 I see 19:47:41 so it get's complex 19:47:45 A bit. 19:48:18 The brute-force search is for the partial match across the whole dictionary; then a full search for the matched word, to see if it's currently valid. 19:48:25 I do like the simplicity of my array 19:48:45 valid? 19:49:04 Valid -- in the current search order. 19:49:14 ahh 19:49:29 ahh. I don't know how your search order stuff works 19:49:40 can't you just search in the search order? 19:49:59 Yes, but not for a partial. 19:50:20 It's a hashed implementation, for speed. Multiple chaining. 19:50:20 why not? 19:50:23 ahh 19:50:26 oh oh oh 19:50:44 now I see why you call it brute 19:51:34 I only search the dict at edit time, so have no reason to do such speed optomizations 19:52:00 The dictionary isn't searched while compiling source? 19:52:50 no 19:52:58 I don't store source as text 19:53:04 Ah. 19:53:07 I store it as references to the dictionary 19:53:18 I see. 19:53:28 (plus a few bits for what to do with it (execute, compile, lit, define, etc) 19:54:16 A different approach. 19:55:10 yeah, ideas from aha and colorforth 19:56:05 it brings the initial complexity up a bit I think 19:56:52 but makes more advanced editor features much easier 19:56:52 I would think so. 19:57:17 and I think in the long run it will be easier 20:02:36 eg you can tab complete any word in all the sources whether it's been compiled or not 20:05:40 Neat. 20:06:14 and the cursor moves words, not characters 20:06:26 and the editor always shows you lots of info about the word under the cursor 20:06:52 ie as many of the following as it has: type, comment, name, definition, value 20:07:59 and you can hit a key to go to the definition of that word 20:11:18 Novel. 20:14:56 How do you manage comments? 20:17:03 Do they have to be attached to a definition? Can they be scattered inside a definition? 20:18:34 --- quit: cmeme (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 20:19:56 --- join: cmeme (~cmeme@216.184.11.2) joined #forth 20:20:00 --- quit: cmeme (Remote closed the connection) 20:20:45 --- join: cmeme (~cmeme@216.184.11.2) joined #forth 20:27:03 --- quit: swalters ("User disconnected") 20:30:31 --- join: swalters (~swalters@2416457hfc118.tampabay.res.rr.com) joined #forth 20:36:32 wow, spaced out for a while there 20:36:46 attached to the definition 20:37:21 within the definition all you can do is disable words 20:37:27 they turn white, and the compile ignores them 20:37:59 I (with a few ugly exceptions) keep my definitions short 20:38:20 so I generally don't want to clutter them up with definitions anyway 20:38:30 I'm in the precess of rewriting my editor 20:38:52 the current (old) editor only displays comments at the bottom (where it gives info on the word under the cursor) 20:39:29 the new one displays however much of the comment fits on the same line as the definition right in the source display 20:39:58 I see. 20:40:20 I think it works pretty well 20:40:27 if you want to know what something does, you put your cursor on it 20:40:41 and hopefully it has a comment with a stack comment and everything 20:41:10 I implemented comments rather recently, so unfortunately most words still don't have comments 20:42:42 It'd work against literate programming. No way to comment between definitions. 20:43:51 JasonWoof comments to the right of teh code is the ONLY way to code imho 20:44:14 splitting teh screen horizontally means you dont see as much context 20:44:22 same with interleaving comments with code 20:44:47 putting teh comments to the right of the code means you can scan down MORE of the code in a glance than you otherwise would be able to 20:45:59 I think it's a bit cluttered with the comments on the right 20:46:05 but I'm going to try it for a while 20:46:18 might try putting more spaces between, or splitting the screen vertically 20:46:25 did you look at my sources? 20:46:37 im very very consistent about the way i comment 20:46:48 code to left. comment to right (at the 29th column if possible) 20:47:16 just a sec, I'll take a look 20:48:55 its very easy to ignore the comments and just scan down the column of code - look at newspapers, they use thin tall columns because its easier to SCAN them that way 20:49:48 I daresay newspapers do that for historical reasons relating to the ease of setting type and then being able to arrange it neatly around pictures and ads. 20:50:21 its also easier to speed read when its layed out in that fassion 20:50:42 Maybe. 20:50:54 foo 20:55:15 I've also heard that it makes easier reading 20:55:23 yeah, looks nice 20:55:32 I don't do multi-line definitions though 20:55:44 unless I can't manage to make it short enough, then it wraps at the edge of the terminal 20:58:56 :) 20:59:20 my personal tastes is for a more vertical coding style 20:59:27 I like it 20:59:48 doesn't seem like information overload 21:00:24 i try not to present too much in one place - it generally means you need to factor better heh 21:06:07 heh 21:11:45 it's really sinking in now that once I automate the dependency stuff 21:12:16 the only reason to have "blocks" or "pages" of source code (rather than one big list) is for the convenience of the user 21:12:57 ie 1) so that definitions can be clumped together (eg all the basic math words) to aid in finding the names of words you don't know 21:14:49 2) so the user can have a "place" where he's working. Where he can write, delete and move stuff around. A place he can get to easily and visually identify 21:18:08 blocks are a pretty arbitrary thing to force a user to adapt to 21:18:21 yeah 21:18:32 it's a storage unit. users shouldn't be forced into the machine's representation if they dont have to 21:18:39 yeah 21:18:43 it made sense in the old days 21:18:53 still makes sense for some systems 21:18:59 :) 21:19:00 yep 21:19:06 to me it's an interesting concept 21:19:15 I like having the source code in chunks like that 21:19:26 i personally would map blocks to 8k pages 21:19:39 except it drives me nuts that I can't split a block in half 21:19:50 with the older systems I think they have ways of shuffling the blocks around 21:20:06 but in my system currently, that would mess up the load sequences 21:20:06 on CPU's with an MMU, pagesize makes the most sense as block size 21:20:21 well, it's a user interface thing too 21:20:29 it's nice that you never have to scroll 21:20:37 the whole block fits on the screen 21:21:03 How do you export/publish source from your system, JasonWoof? 21:21:36 I have code that exports to ascii, and (probably still working) code to spit out html 21:21:59 display on the screen shouldn't have to be tied to blocks 21:22:02 Can you import from ascii also? 21:22:18 in the past, I've had a C program that can parse this exported ascii, and shove it back into the binary 21:22:39 ever seen tiddlywiki? imagine an editor like that. click on, or press a key over a certain word, it open up below the current one 21:22:40 but currently that doesn't work, and won't until I finish rearranging the source reperesntation and editor 21:23:24 no, currently I have no support for reading/parsing ascii 21:23:38 which, unfortunately, means there's no way to merge changes 21:25:09 but that's ok for now. nobody else is making any anyway 21:27:40 before I was merging the ascii version, then parsing, and shoving that back in with the C thing 21:28:52 I'm not sure how I want to handle merging changes 22:28:24 --- quit: JasonWoof ("off to bed") 22:29:29 --- quit: sproingie ("Konversation terminated!") 22:44:05 --- quit: swalters ("User disconnected") 22:45:18 --- join: swalters (~swalters@2416457hfc118.tampabay.res.rr.com) joined #forth 22:57:47 --- quit: swalters ("User disconnected") 22:57:58 --- join: swalters (~swalters@2416457hfc118.tampabay.res.rr.com) joined #forth 23:00:23 --- quit: swalters (Client Quit) 23:30:52 --- join: swalters (~swalters@2416457hfc118.tampabay.res.rr.com) joined #forth 23:35:22 --- quit: swalters (Client Quit) 23:55:42 --- join: swalters (~swalters@2416457hfc118.tampabay.res.rr.com) joined #forth 23:55:50 --- quit: swalters (Remote closed the connection) 23:56:08 --- join: swalters (~swalters@2416457hfc118.tampabay.res.rr.com) joined #forth 23:57:15 --- quit: swalters (Client Quit) 23:58:15 --- join: swalters (~swalters@2416457hfc118.tampabay.res.rr.com) joined #forth 23:58:39 --- quit: swalters (Client Quit) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/05.08.01