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00:28:01 <I440r> hey - who here knows where the term big endian/little endian comes from ?
00:29:25 <JasonWoof> From Jargon File (4.3.1, 29 Jun 2001) [jargon]:
00:29:25 <JasonWoof>   big-endian adj. [common; From Swift's "Gulliver's Travels" via the
00:29:25 <JasonWoof>      famous paper "On Holy Wars and a Plea for Peace" by Danny Cohen, USC/ISI
00:29:42 <I440r> yea
00:29:52 <I440r> but why is it big/little endian ?
00:30:07 <I440r> yes - from gullivers travels
00:30:39 <I440r> the Lilliputians had a debate about which end of a hard boild egg should be opened first 
00:30:40 <I440r> lol
00:30:46 <Raystm2> has to do with byte order--doesn't it. I mean IBM does it backwards right?
00:31:17 <I440r> the arguement about byte ordering is on the same scale as the arguement about hard boiled eggs
00:31:40 <I440r> its just a little Six and Two threes.
00:31:40 <Raystm2> I have to assume so, and tend to agree.
00:32:10 <I440r> anyway, that that popped into my head because arm is bi-endian
00:32:12 <Raystm2> 6 of one \ half a gallon of another
00:32:27 <Raystm2> oh it goes both ways?
00:32:36 <I440r> and im writing an arm assembler (been as nobody else ever wrote one worth a damn)
00:32:39 <I440r> ya
00:32:44 <I440r> ppc is also bi-endian
00:32:47 <Raystm2> hmm
00:33:27 <JasonWoof>           The Lilliputians, being very small, had correspondingly small
00:33:27 <JasonWoof>           political problems.  The Big-Endian and Little-Endian parties
00:33:27 <JasonWoof>           debated over whether soft-boiled eggs should be opened at the
00:33:27 <JasonWoof>           big end or the little end.
00:33:50 <I440r> :)
00:34:15 <JasonWoof> (foldoc for "endian")
00:34:29 <Raystm2> anybody know how I do key polling in an environment without an interupt table, using memory-mapped I/O and what do I have to have set up for that to work?
00:34:41 <I440r> in linux ?
00:34:44 <I440r> use a pollfd
00:34:49 <Raystm2> colorforth :)
00:34:54 <I440r> lol
00:35:39 <Raystm2> i'm trying to interupt a loop in my ChuckBot program, so I don't have to wait for the execution to finish. 
00:36:31 <Raystm2> I need a keyboard loop interupt using machine coded macros in colorforth with out an interupt table. Am I nieve?
00:37:38 <Raystm2> can I poll the keyboard every go around before executing the next iteration of the running loop by making polling part of the loop?
00:38:19 <I440r> you can try - i dont know cf at all
00:38:31 <Raystm2> what does it look like in asm?
00:38:34 <Raystm2> any idea
00:38:41 * Raystm2 not a real programmer.
00:39:20 <JasonWoof> Raystm2: get someone to implement "key?"
00:39:22 <Raystm2> if I knew all that needed to be done in asm, I could prob'ly compile a listing for the op codes and colorforth them
00:39:30 <Raystm2> key? ack
00:40:00 * Raystm2 googles key? + forth or asm
00:40:09 <JasonWoof> key? simply returns true/false for whether there's been a key pressed, that is if KEY will return a char (and not block)
00:40:37 <Raystm2> thanks JasonWoof :)
00:41:16 <JasonWoof> if colorforth doesn't have that or something similar, it should be added
00:41:48 <Raystm2> absolutely, 
00:42:55 <Raystm2> know where I can see an example?
00:45:50 <JasonWoof> no
00:45:57 <JasonWoof> I know diddly about x86
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00:46:20 * Raystm2 looking how gforth does it then will check win32forth
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06:33:38 <PoppaVic> G'day
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06:58:49 <danniken> away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away away
06:58:57 <danniken> oops
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06:59:19 * PoppaVic considers "boot to the head"
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07:04:05 <PoppaVic> lo, sproingie 
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07:30:57 <PoppaVic> lo, herk
07:34:03 <JasonWoof> hi PoppaVic :)
07:35:09 <PoppaVic> I've been reading thru the pile oflinker/loader ps that someone aimed me at the other day... And the ##C guys had a nice (useless) debate on asm/assembly/assemblers ;-)
07:37:21 <PoppaVic> I sorta' wanted to chime in on their debate, but they'd never understand where my head was at ;-)
07:38:13 <JasonWoof> ok
07:39:08 <PoppaVic> well, one sec they were really close to "full emulation" and the next they bordered on the idea of forthish asm-voc parsing ;-)It was fun to watch the arguments.
07:40:21 <PoppaVic> It was quite interesting to watch, initially.. Because, I'd been navel-contemplating the issues for the last week or so.
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08:17:32 <arke> My song: myspace.com/arkecode :)
08:19:06 <PoppaVic> when shallI see yer email of notes on the vm?
08:19:36 <arke> err
08:19:41 <arke> when you send me an email to remind me
08:34:36 <PoppaVic> Hmm.. THis linker/loader stuff has been sort of interesting.
08:44:11 <PoppaVic> I'm seriously suprised there is no lib for laying-out an object
08:48:41 <sproingie> an object like c++ objects?
08:48:55 <PoppaVic> nono
08:49:10 <PoppaVic> object-files for executables, libs, modules
08:49:22 <sproingie> libbfd
08:49:23 <sproingie> libelf
08:49:35 <sproingie> mach probably has something
08:49:37 <PoppaVic> I finally find some mach-o clues, but.. (yes, heard of them)
08:50:00 <sproingie> gcc produces mach-o so it probably has it in libbfd actually
08:50:02 <PoppaVic> sproingie: no, what I meant was a plain old "standard interface".
08:50:22 <sproingie> no standard format, no likely to have a standard interface
08:50:32 <PoppaVic> seems like laying down the data - even if the content varies - would not be overly difficult.
08:51:13 <PoppaVic> right, I agree - the likelyhood (sp?) is dim and remote
08:51:17 <sproingie> is what compilers and linkers do
08:51:21 <PoppaVic> yeppers
08:51:25 <sproingie> some are broken out into libraries better than others
08:51:28 <sproingie> gcc is pretty monolithic
08:51:29 <PoppaVic> ..and assemblers
08:51:37 <sproingie> msvc is of course completely monolithic
08:51:41 <PoppaVic> yes, I've noted that over the years
08:52:06 <PoppaVic> Seems odd, is all.. You'd think someone would have seen the "issue"
08:53:11 <sproingie> depends how granular you want to get about objects
08:53:23 <PoppaVic> otoh, it ranks up there with codifying ABI's, so - I guess it doesn't really suprise me.
08:53:24 <sproingie> it's largely dependent on the language
08:53:36 <sproingie> only reason so many languages lay out objects in a C compatible format is because they use C
08:53:40 <sproingie> or are trying to be compatible with C
08:53:42 <PoppaVic> sure
08:53:49 <PoppaVic> and the system expects them
08:53:58 <sproingie> otherwise there's no format at all.  elf header, sections, and beyond that, that's it
08:54:07 <PoppaVic> yep
08:54:12 <sproingie> you could have the rest of your objects in unlambda with a small interpreter fronting it
08:54:30 <PoppaVic> yet, elf, mach and others all suffer the same silly balkanization
08:54:34 <sproingie> so there's no standard api because the language is the api
08:54:37 <PoppaVic> sproingie: indeed
08:54:54 <sproingie> the interface for laying out C objects is C
08:54:59 <sproingie> for pascal objects it's pascal
08:55:00 <sproingie> etc
08:55:24 <PoppaVic> do they still support the 'pascal' keyword/op?
08:55:24 <sproingie> i guess there's quite a few that will do java and .net objects, but that's because they're well specified
08:55:43 <sproingie> pascal keyword just hints a C compiler to use pascal calling conventions
08:55:47 <PoppaVic> right
08:55:58 <PoppaVic> I've not seen it for a few years, is all
08:56:05 <sproingie> easy to detect those on windows, their symbols are mangled differently
08:56:10 <PoppaVic> ahh
08:56:39 <sproingie> far as i know, windows is the only one that mixes 'em at all freely
08:56:53 <sproingie> only place you're likely to run into pascal conventions on unix is with pascal
08:56:53 <PoppaVic> interesting
08:56:58 <sproingie> or maybe hla if you actually use it
08:57:15 <sproingie> but then you have a totally different binary format anyway
08:58:06 <sproingie> C++ is of course an abi nightmare all its own
08:58:25 <sproingie> i'd love to see libbfd and company grown into a general purpose "libabi"
08:58:36 <sproingie> sounds like it's your project :)
08:59:22 <PoppaVic> it's sorta'-kinda, yeah. Too much for one guy alone, though.
08:59:32 <sproingie> well i gotta get to work
08:59:34 * sproingie waves
08:59:38 <PoppaVic> you stay well
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12:37:15 <tathi> I440r_: ppc isn't *really* bi-endian, it just has this half-assed hack.
12:47:02 <I440r_> yea ?
12:47:05 <I440r_> arm is
12:47:27 <I440r_> and the page i read said ppc was too. there are actually quite alot of similarities between arm and ppc
12:54:30 <tathi> well, on PPC, 32-bit words are ALWAYS stored in big-endian order.
12:54:37 <tathi> but if the chip is in little-endian mode,
12:54:54 <tathi> it xors the low 3 bits of the address with a mask that depends on the size of the operand.
12:55:09 <tathi> so it *looks* like it's little-endian.
12:55:40 <tathi> so...a little-endian program could run correctly
12:55:57 <tathi> but this hack is no help for reading little-endian data files, so in practice it's not much use.
12:56:31 <tathi> (as far as I can see, anyway)
12:57:10 <tathi> don't know much about arm -- I have a copy of the ARM ARM, but haven't gotten around to reading it carefully.
13:02:33 <I440r_> i dont knolw how to flip endianness with an arm
13:02:48 <I440r_> it might be "take this wire and solder it to this pin here and hold it low" lol
13:02:57 <I440r_> i dont think its software controlable
13:03:11 <tathi> "If a standard System Control coprocessor is attached to such an ARM implementation, this configuration input can be changed by writing to bit[7] of register 1 of the System Control coprocessor"
13:04:48 <tathi> but it also says that you switching the endianness won't work for swapping bytes, which seems a bit screwy to me.
13:05:23 <tathi> sounds like the bi-endian thing is only so you can take the same ARM chip and build either a big-endian or a little-endian computer around it.
13:06:26 <tathi> so...it is software controllable, but other than setting the processor to match the memory system on startup, there's no point in controlling it.  interesting. :)
13:08:40 <tathi> err...I mean it *could* be software controllable.
13:11:44 <I440r_> lol
13:11:53 <I440r_> switch endianness, read data, switch back
13:11:58 <I440r_> looks straight forward to me :)
13:12:00 <I440r_> except!
13:12:17 <JasonWoof> tathi: that endian addressing thing is cool :)
13:12:20 <I440r_> the switch back is going to rely on an instruction fetch which is going to be wrong-eneianed
13:12:31 <tathi> except the architecture reference manual says that word load/stores ARE NOT AFFECTED by the endian switch.
13:12:40 <I440r_> oh
13:12:45 <tathi> JasonWoof: yeah, isn't it?  xor is a cool operation :)
13:12:50 <JasonWoof> so for byte stores/fetches it xors by 3, and for half stores/fetches it xors by 1
13:12:58 <I440r_> then how can it NOT be useable as a bswap
13:13:04 <JasonWoof> no, by 2
13:13:08 <I440r_> i dont get how you can switch endianness with an xor
13:13:09 <I440r_> at all
13:13:38 <I440r_> xor a, b  xor b, a   xor a,b
13:13:44 <I440r_> that will swap a and b
13:13:50 <I440r_> but thats THREE xors not one
13:14:21 <JasonWoof> I440r_: the trick changes the address for byte load/stores, so that if you were to store each byte in order, instead of doing index 0, then 1, 2, 3, 4, 6 in memory
13:14:47 <JasonWoof> you'd really be storing to 3,2,1,0,7,6,5,4
13:14:56 <I440r_> ya
13:15:23 <I440r_> brb, getting coffee
13:15:40 <tathi> ah, ok.  The ARM thing *will* swap the bytes.
13:16:01 <tathi> but...if you store a word, switch endianness (the bytes get swapped), then load again, you'll get the same value.
13:16:06 <JasonWoof> so you can do:   0 c, 1 c, 2 c, 3 c, here 4- @ and get 0x03020100
13:17:33 <tathi> wow.
13:17:38 <tathi> that's wacky.
13:17:51 <tathi> some of the bytes would actually be after here, but you wouldn't be able to tell :)
13:19:01 <JasonWoof> heh
13:19:28 <tathi> I thought it would be a problem for a sec.
13:19:47 <JasonWoof> hehe
13:19:52 <tathi> but if it completely changes your view of the memory, it works just fine :)
13:19:58 <JasonWoof> yeah
13:20:14 <JasonWoof> basically it allows you to work with big-endian data as though it were little-endian
13:20:19 <tathi> right
13:20:41 <tathi> I wonder if it would slow you down on the DRAM-consecutive-access thing?
13:20:51 <JasonWoof> which is funny, because it seems more likely you'd want the opposite... to be able to deal with little-endian data as though it were big-endian
13:20:58 <tathi> exactly
13:21:01 <JasonWoof> probably
13:21:11 <JasonWoof> well, dunno, caching..
13:21:12 <tathi> oh, of course it wouldn't slow you down, it gets loaded into the cache first anyway.
13:21:42 <tathi> and of course if you were going for speed, you wouldn't be doing one byte at a time, either.
13:22:32 <JasonWoof> zakly
13:22:56 <JasonWoof> that consecutive accessing stuff is a bugger
13:23:23 <JasonWoof> I've been mulling over whether to make structs for data like in C or to make a seperate array for each field
13:24:08 <tathi> I wouldn't think it would be a significant difference until you get pretty big.
13:24:22 <JasonWoof> yah
13:24:38 <JasonWoof> well, all speed stuff only matters if you do a lot of stuff
13:25:02 <tathi> And currently all your stuff probably fits in L2 cache at least.
13:25:05 <JasonWoof> seems most of what computers do is move data around and look through it
13:25:06 <tathi> (though maybe not L1)
13:25:12 <tathi> yeah
13:25:16 <JasonWoof> so I figured it would be good to hav efficient ways of doing those
13:25:32 <JasonWoof> my current 32byte dictionary entries fit the cache lines perfectly
13:25:56 <JasonWoof> if you want to access a bunch of fields, but if you say want to look through all the CFA fields, or worse a 1 byte field in each record, that's hell on the cache
13:26:16 * I440r_ is writing an assembler for arm. there are no decent assemblers for arm
13:26:28 <I440r_> gnu assembler is totally fucked in the head for doing real coding with
13:26:29 <I440r_> if you do
13:26:31 <I440r_>  x = 1
13:26:34 <I440r_>  .word x
13:26:37 <I440r_> x = 2
13:26:40 <I440r_> .word x
13:26:42 <I440r_> x = 3
13:26:46 <I440r_>  .word x
13:26:57 <I440r_> all instances of .word x will have the last value of x assembled into them
13:27:00 <tathi> yup.
13:27:06 <tathi> it's almost as bad as make
13:27:07 <I440r_> thats totally fucking moronic
13:27:12 <I440r_> but!!!!!!!!!!!!
13:27:28 <I440r_> i found an assembler that has one thing that makes it THE SINGLE most useless assembler i have ever seen
13:27:31 <I440r_> and thats not gas :)O
13:27:37 <I440r_> thats teh green hills arm assembler
13:27:43 <tathi> :)
13:28:04 <I440r_> if you have a main file include other files when you generate a listing file ONLY the topmost file has a meaningfull list generated for it
13:28:10 <I440r_> all other files have nothing but ....
13:28:13 <I440r_> offset xxxxxxx
13:28:16 <I440r_> offset xxxxxxx
13:28:19 <I440r_> offset xxxxxxx
13:28:20 <I440r_> offset xxxxxxx
13:28:29 <tathi> urgh
13:28:32 <I440r_> where xxxxxxx is the object code at the specified offset
13:28:35 <tathi> right
13:28:43 <I440r_> no associated source line
13:28:56 <tathi> that's pretty bad.
13:29:05 <I440r_> thats useless
13:29:07 <tathi> although...I can't remember ever using asm listings for anything.
13:29:23 <I440r_> i use it to check when my assembled forths are linked right
13:29:33 <I440r_> i have macros that create the headers linked to each otehr...
13:29:41 <tathi> err...you mean assembled right, I assume.
13:29:43 <I440r_> my dos port of isforth has some very neat macros
13:29:55 <tathi> yah, a86 is sweet
13:29:55 <I440r_> the resultant executable has a fully hasned dictionary
13:30:06 <I440r_> no need to do the fixup in do in isforth there
13:34:34 <I440r_> my recruitor called. he has a possible job for me in california with one month in korea
13:35:03 <I440r_> i registered a86
13:35:12 <I440r_> i didnt release the dos port of isforth tho heh
13:35:18 <I440r_> but teh macros are freekin awesome
13:35:39 <I440r_> my header macro hashes the word name and links it to the correct thread in a vocab :)
13:35:45 <I440r_> couldnt do that with nasm
13:36:08 <I440r_> the way i do it is i have 64 equates per vocabulary
13:36:21 <I440r_> LF0 throu LF63 for teh forth voc for instance
13:36:43 <I440r_> when i create a word header i calculate its hash value and use THAT value as part of teh equate name
13:36:52 <I440r_> e.g. has is 23
13:36:53 <I440r_> i do
13:37:09 <I440r_>  dw LF23  ; link pack to previous word in this thread
13:37:10 <tathi> right
13:37:13 <I440r_> LF23 = $
13:37:33 <I440r_> and at teh end of assembly i just do dw LF0, LF1, LF2... LF63
13:37:55 <I440r_> could not find a way to evaluate a value and use that as part of a label name in nasm
13:38:12 <I440r_> maybe i should put in a feature request!
13:38:30 <I440r_> how would i contact the maintainers of nasm i wonder
13:38:42 <tathi> they don't have contact information?
13:39:05 <I440r_> i dont know
13:39:10 <I440r_> im checking their page
13:39:15 <tathi> the project back at sourceforge, IIRC?
13:39:49 <I440r_> yes
13:40:10 <I440r_> they have a mailing list but i NEVER join those "please spam me out teh wazoo" deals
13:40:15 <tathi> "is back" even
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13:50:16 <I440r_> can nasm parse a parameter to a macro one char at a time ?
13:50:34 <I440r_> i.e. for each character in this string do the following....
13:50:37 <I440r_> i forget
14:04:49 <I440r_>  The following usenet groups are archived and cannot be posted to:
14:04:49 <I440r_> "comp.lang.asm"
14:04:49 <I440r_> (Separate multiple groups with commas) 
14:35:27 <I440r_> ok the fucking nasm authors are pissing me off
14:35:51 <I440r_> they dont give you ANY fucking way to contact them except by joining their fuckeing "please fucking spame me alot" mailing list
14:35:58 <I440r_> i dont fucking want to join ANY fucking mailing list
14:35:59 <I440r_> FUCK
14:37:25 <JasonWoof> you don't like being on mailing lists eh?
14:37:35 <I440r_> what ever gives you that idea :)
14:37:37 <JasonWoof> what about being called dood? do you like being called dood?
14:37:49 <JasonWoof> dood
14:38:02 <I440r_> hmmm... i can live with it 
14:38:03 <I440r_> dood
14:39:30 <JasonWoof> oh come on... you know you like it ;)
14:39:52 <JasonWoof> it's OK to admit it
14:39:55 <JasonWoof> we're all friends here
14:42:42 <I440r_> :)
14:55:38 <tathi> wait, can't you go to their profile and contact them from there?
14:57:20 <I440r_> i hunted for it but couldnt find any links to emails. someone gave me the link
14:57:28 <I440r_> i hate sf.net
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15:02:07 <tathi> ok, sorry, wasn't sure if that worked properly.
15:02:34 <tathi> on the nasm project page, on the right hand side it says "Developer Info:"
15:02:43 <tathi> Project Admins:
15:02:45 <tathi> Developers: 12
15:03:01 <I440r_> i must have been looking at a different page
15:03:12 <I440r_> cuz i never saw that link
15:03:16 <tathi> http://sourceforge.net/projects/nasm/
15:03:51 <I440r_> i went to nasm.sf.net
15:04:08 <tathi> yes...and on their home page, there's a link to the sf _project_ page.
15:04:53 <tathi> anyway, if you go there and hit the View Members link...
15:05:07 <I440r_> erm then the only way to use THOSE email addresses to email them is by registering with sf
15:05:14 <I440r_> those are their sf email accounts
15:05:20 <tathi> yeah, it's just an alias.
15:05:26 <I440r_> i know.
15:05:29 <tathi> actually goes to whatever e-mail address they have on their account.
15:05:39 <tathi> and you don't have to be registered, you can just send mail to the address.
15:05:45 <I440r_> if bill gates offered me his entire personal fortune to do it i STILL wouldent register with sf
15:05:52 <tathi> so don't then.
15:05:54 <I440r_> not last i knew
15:05:58 <tathi> you're so paranoid.
15:06:10 <I440r_> its not paranoia
15:06:11 <tathi> I just tried it.
15:06:26 <tathi> you don't get spam by being on a mail list hosted by sf.net
15:06:28 <I440r_> well they changed their polacy 
15:06:59 <I440r_> i have direct email addresses now anyway
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