00:00:00 --- log: started forth/05.07.25 00:48:29 --- quit: madgarden (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 02:11:59 --- join: snoopy_16 (snoopy_161@dsl-084-058-162-089.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 02:16:56 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Nick collision from services.) 02:17:02 --- nick: snoopy_16 -> Snoopy42 03:59:41 --- join: danniken- (CapStone@adsl-69-153-226-243.dsl.ltrkar.swbell.net) joined #forth 03:59:41 --- quit: danniken (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 04:18:01 --- join: madgarden (~madgarden@Kitchener-HSE-ppp3577323.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 04:27:28 --- quit: danniken- (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 04:27:50 --- join: danniken- (CapStone@adsl-69-153-226-243.dsl.ltrkar.swbell.net) joined #forth 05:53:04 --- quit: onetom (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 05:53:24 --- join: onetom (~tom@ns.dunasoft.com) joined #forth 05:54:31 --- nick: Raystm2 -> nanstm 06:16:02 --- join: tathi (~josh@tathi.bronze.supporter.pdpc) joined #forth 06:23:12 --- join: virsys (~virsys@or-65-40-178-89.dyn.sprint-hsd.net) joined #forth 06:41:45 --- join: PoppaVic (~pete@0-1pool66-254.nas22.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 06:42:30 G'day 07:06:57 hi PoppaVic 07:07:26 lo 07:07:28 PoppaVic, didn't you said that you need a C compiler? 07:07:39 not exactly 07:08:15 ok, so what did you say? ;-) 07:08:38 when? About? I use gcc, mostly 07:09:54 --- join: sproingie (foobar@64-121-15-14.c3-0.sfrn-ubr8.sfrn.ca.cable.rcn.com) joined #forth 07:10:48 PoppaVic, how far is your project? do you have clearer ideas now? 07:11:45 Still thrashing a bit... I'm not a lot closer to getting "done", but I believe I'm getting clearer on what notes to write (guidelines) and what I'll need to do. 07:14:45 to resume your idea, the autoconf replacement needs a portable shell and a portable library. correct? 07:16:17 The project needs to learn about platform, processsor, ABI, available programs and libs; generate the libTIL; generate the minish; create the Metabuilder vocabularies. Yes. 07:16:42 and iirc you depend only on gcc, but what is when gcc isn't on the system? in that case I would built into the program a alternative c compiler, I think tinycc would be a good choice. 07:17:16 never used tinycc, don't believe Ieven have a copy. 07:17:40 I simply selected gcc as the most prevalent compiler 07:18:55 I only suggested tinyCC because it's very small and could be embedded into your program. 07:19:12 ok, and where is this tarball/site? 07:20:09 http://fabrice.bellard.free.fr/tcc/ 07:20:25 Loading 07:21:33 Downloading, but note: it's an x86-only tarball 07:22:51 ops, sry. 07:23:11 ok, it was only my idea, so never mind. 07:23:29 well, the source may be interesting 07:23:55 I'm glaring at some source from apple for AS and some architecture headers right now. 07:26:44 --- quit: KB1FYR () 07:27:56 hmm 07:28:51 oddly, the tcc tarball is apparently busted (so sez midnight-commander) 07:28:56 --- join: KB1FYR (~Alex@d-66-63-85-222.suscom-maine.net) joined #forth 07:29:36 tinycc isn't very interesting given that it only runs on linux 07:29:53 if you're interested in a linux-only autotools replacement, good luck competing with the 238429357 others 07:29:56 I thought I saw that indicated *sigh* 07:30:17 sproingie: I was just going to glare at it and see what was "exciting" 07:30:35 tcc is unexciting as compilers go, but it is pretty zippy 07:31:01 I would expect it to be so, gcc is a kitchen-sink tool 07:31:06 i sometimes use its script feature to test C code 07:31:43 not too hard to write a similar wrapper for gcc, but slower 07:32:41 fabrice bellard does write some pretty neat stuff tho 07:32:59 I'm beginning to believe that there are precisely two ways to do what I want... Stick to plain' ol C for the core & let asm-volken add interfaces as required or Start from something like gforth. ANd, I hate the lameness of the 2nd solution. 07:33:46 I finally got, built and installed libFFI, but I've no idea at all what to do with it ;-) I also am not sure I want something that precarious involved. 07:34:28 libffi generates trampolines to call all sorts of types of c functions 07:34:36 that's all 07:34:59 might have some utilities for callbacks from C to the host, but I dont know how far they go 07:35:17 I would presume asm programmers already HAVE some tool like that? for multiple-platforms? 07:35:28 you'd be surprised how little asm programmers have 07:35:34 ouch 07:35:55 i'd say if they wanted a general solution, they probably use libffi 07:35:58 I do get the impression they like to write monolithic beasts and ignore libs 07:36:00 or something like it 07:36:24 asm isn't generally written for modularity and reusability 07:36:30 right 07:36:51 It seems (of late) they just want to stand out and "run fast" 07:37:13 ..which seems somewhat redundant, with the new generations of chips 07:38:58 i dont think asm programmers usually care much about standing out 07:40:27 hard to make asm faster than well-made C on commodity platforms 07:40:36 I jnow 07:40:40 know, two ;-) 07:41:08 And, from what I've seen, a decently modularized C is a whole lot easier to maintain 07:41:10 asm's still great for odd architectures where you don't usually have much clock speed or power budget 07:41:22 Assuredly true 07:41:25 since c compilers for those always involve slow cross-compiling steps 07:41:30 and they don't always generate great code 07:41:38 ..cross-compiling to such a limited platform would be silly 07:41:57 compiling on those platforms isn't an option 07:42:07 CROSS 07:42:35 although, I know a few guys worrking with ucpu that do use special C-compilers for 'em 07:43:05 i'm tinkering with forth because i wanted to try some ideas from first concepts. not a big fan of the "know how the machine works" school of thought actually 07:43:14 right 07:43:19 i am a fan of "know how the translation steps work" tho 07:43:27 in a general sense 07:43:30 however, the info should be around for interfaces 07:43:48 Yes. I delved deep into forth long ago 07:44:45 forth sorta' twists what the rest of the world sees as lexing/parsing, though.. It can become a chore to relate the two 07:45:10 that's kinda what i like about it 07:45:16 sure 07:45:31 Tis why I am thinking of a libTIL "core" 07:45:42 it doesn't so much have a parser as it's driven by the lexer 07:45:53 yep 07:46:08 although, I've some notes on a few ideas I want to try 07:46:11 most words do at most one token of lookahead 07:46:18 and that's simply to parse it as an arg it always takes 07:46:19 right 07:46:28 yep 07:46:44 no backtracking whatsoever 07:46:50 I sort of like the vocs/wordlists/words.. 07:47:03 backtracking...? Rejection? 07:47:17 yeah 07:47:47 yeah, I have not decided if I like that or not.. Might take a stab at it. 07:51:06 I'm even considering "putback" and true "macro-insertion". 07:53:23 --- quit: hrmpf ("whatever u do, do it right!") 07:53:38 in forth? 07:53:53 well, this isn't a true "forth" 07:53:58 a TIL is more accurate 07:54:02 most forths can do that already, just rewind >in and call interpret 07:54:31 right, I always hated that whole "lexer" mechanism 07:55:05 the colorforth line has macros instead of immediate words. actually inserting code in a macro in cf is pretty straightforward, insert a cyan word (i think) 07:55:16 in rf the syntax is now c: word 07:55:28 and it'll compile a call to that word inline 07:55:34 "C:" ? 07:55:39 compile 07:55:42 it's a retroforth extension 07:55:44 ohohoho 07:55:47 got cha 07:55:49 stands for ['] word compile 07:55:55 right 07:56:09 i think in colorforth you just set the color to compiled 07:57:10 somewhat nicer than immediate words, but the same basic effect 07:57:32 separate macro namespace tho, so they can be a bit weird sometimes 07:57:47 Yeah.. I didn't appreciate the idea of "color".. Not much use on an amber-monitor or to the colorblind ;-) 07:58:01 like the definition of 1+ 07:58:03 : 1+ 1+ ; 07:58:32 not terribly obvious, but it calls the 1+ macro 07:58:45 sproingie: from what I recall talking awhile back, his idea of a "macro namespace" was basically a sep voc/wordlist for immediates, iirc 07:58:48 defined as : 1+ $40 1, ; 07:58:48 --- join: bianryguy (~binaryguy@host86-131-195-120.range86-131.btcentralplus.com) joined #forth 07:59:02 i.e. compile in a INC instruction 07:59:13 right.. Looks particularly sloppy 07:59:21 naw, very very compact 07:59:22 --- quit: bianryguy (Client Quit) 07:59:46 i dont like that rf doesn't have a working assembler, but he's working on it 07:59:49 overly compact, it appears 08:00:02 it's the advantage of storing the TOS in EAX 08:00:23 so many ops work on it that it makes the asm very small 08:00:29 well, so far... I thought of an asm-voc, but - using C it would be particularly nasty. 08:01:06 --- quit: crc (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)) 08:01:07 macro namespace basically is just a separate namespace for immediates, yes 08:01:31 I'd rather think in terms of avoiding asm in the TIL, but be able to link in modules via dlopen & friends 08:02:44 library boundary is slooooow 08:02:55 Although, I would LOVE to have a pseudo (portable) 'asm voc' for testing and extraction. 08:03:03 "boundary"? 08:06:53 calling a function in a dll is quite slow 08:08:06 ahh 08:08:18 well, iirc, once called - further calls should be trivial. 08:09:13 there's always overhead 08:09:41 i believe dll calls typically save and restore all registers, for one 08:10:10 hmm, they shouldn't 08:10:37 iirc, from what I've seen, they do something like a mmap and ptr return. 08:10:54 my experience in the area isn't vast 08:11:11 so perhaps it's not all libs 08:12:21 the lazy-access is certainly a little slower on initial calls, but - once set, the ptrs are valid. 08:47:30 arke: when am I going to see at least your notes on the vm? 09:14:54 --- quit: PoppaVic ("brb") 09:16:50 --- join: PoppaVic (~pete@0-1pool47-161.nas30.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 09:17:41 slip under the wire 09:51:37 --- quit: nanstm (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 10:04:40 --- join: Raystm2 (~vircuser@adsl-68-93-114-134.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 10:34:31 wow.. #forth is dead, but watching ##c and talking in #asm is amusing ;-) 11:03:24 --- quit: PoppaVic ("Pulls the pin...") 12:12:49 --- quit: skovlic ("leaving") 12:18:14 --- quit: cmeme ("Client terminated by server") 12:56:28 --- join: kunphuzil (~Jason@ip-69-10-112-246.cableaz.net) joined #forth 12:56:28 --- part: kunphuzil left #forth 12:56:28 --- quit: arke (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 12:56:30 --- join: arke (f2@bespin.org) joined #forth 13:28:44 --- quit: OrngeTide ("End slackery now.") 15:06:32 --- join: crc (crc@pool-70-110-179-203.phil.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 15:39:13 --- mode: ChanServ set +o crc 17:03:13 --- quit: crc () 17:16:55 --- join: crc (crc@pool-70-20-244-167.phil.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 17:17:18 --- mode: ChanServ set +o crc 17:40:26 --- quit: arke (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 17:40:26 --- join: arke (f2@66.114.33.57) joined #forth 17:53:19 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 17:53:46 --- quit: swalters (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 18:39:37 --- quit: saon|smgl (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 18:40:12 --- join: saon|smgl (~saon@c-66-177-224-222.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) joined #forth 18:46:39 --- join: snoopy_16 (snoopy_161@dsl-084-058-140-194.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 18:49:39 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 18:50:00 --- nick: snoopy_16 -> Snoopy42 19:24:03 --- join: swalters (~swalters@2416457hfc118.tampabay.res.rr.com) joined #forth 19:39:36 --- join: JasonWoof (~jason@Herkamire.student.supporter.pdpc) joined #forth 19:39:36 --- mode: ChanServ set +o JasonWoof 19:44:46 --- quit: swalters (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 20:18:50 --- nick: danniken- -> danniken 20:38:50 --- join: danniken- (CapStone@adsl-69-153-226-243.dsl.ltrkar.swbell.net) joined #forth 20:38:50 --- quit: danniken (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 20:50:08 --- quit: sproingie ("Konversation terminated!") 20:51:31 --- join: swalters (~swalters@2416457hfc118.tampabay.res.rr.com) joined #forth 21:11:53 --- join: I440r (~foo@rrcs-24-242-160-169.sw.biz.rr.com) joined #forth 21:13:30 --- join: OrngeTide (~orange@rm-f.net) joined #forth 21:59:18 --- quit: danniken- (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 22:05:47 --- join: danniken (CapStone@adsl-69-153-226-243.dsl.ltrkar.swbell.net) joined #forth 22:38:57 --- quit: OrngeTide ("gone") 22:56:41 --- quit: danniken (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/05.07.25